I've seen them. The books ARE pretty. The interesting thing is the new way 4e uses feats. You don't buy skills anymore. From the PHB:
When you create your character, you should determine
your base skill check bonus for each skill you
know. Your base skill check bonus for a skill includes
the following:
> One-half your level
> Your ability score modifier (each skill is based on one
of your ability scores)
> A +5 bonus if you're trained in the skillSounds similar to Pathfinder Alpha 1 doesn't it?
Actually, it sounds like Star Wars Saga Edition. Pathfinder just ripped it off from there.
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I'm also kind of on the side of the coin of purposeful leak. Those Workpdf's must have been arround at least as long as the books have been printed if not a while longer which means either wizzzies dropped the ball or these are actually scans of early copies. Either way, I'm not sure its going to affect the sales a whole lot, I know I'm not gonna be canceling my preorder...
Logos
I don't know whether this is a purposeful leak. If it was, then WotC would have made them easier to find. Given that I haven't found them yet, I doubt they are purposeful.
When you create your character, you should determine your base skill check bonus for each skill you know. Your base skill check bonus for a skill includes the following: One-half your level; Your ability score modifier (each skill is based on one of your ability scores); A +5 bonus if you're trained in the skill
Oooh... don't like that at all. The richness of the 3.x skill system is one of the (main) things my group and I like.
It's almost a backward step toward 2e's system. IMO.
Actually, it sounds like Star Wars Saga Edition. Pathfinder just ripped it off from there.
Yeah, they started using that in Star Wars Saga Edition, as a testing ground I'm told for 4th Edition mechanics. Apparently it worked out really well, as they kept using it, and Pathfinder originally wanted to follow suit (I havent been keeping up with the subsequent alpha releases, but I'm told that it was dropped).
Its not the only thing that Pathfinder took from 4E: hit points, turn undead, and sneak attack come to mind.|
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James / Gary:** spoiler omitted **
Now see that's a bit much, I'm sure the guys are some what tech saavy enough to know what bit torrent is and well aware that all kinds of stuff finds it's way to the trackers. I wouldn't even be surprised to find out if some of them were guilty of using them for their favorite tv show or something.
I'm also more then sure that atleast when they started selling Dragon and Dungeon as PDFs they all sat down and discussed how much effort they were going to put to stopping piracy of the pdfs.
That said there are torrents out there of every AD&D book, D&D book, Dragon issue, Dungeon issue, Vampire the Masquerade book, MechWarrior, Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Freeport, etc etc etc.
To those screaming about the downloads I just want to say something.
Before Wizards starting licensing out the old AD&D books as PDFs for sale people were scanning them. People scan whole RPG books for all kinds of games, this is nothing new. The advent of PDFs from publishers for 3E just continued that trend and actually made it easier to find stuff online. Just like with Movies, Tv, and Music nothing is going to stop that.
I think the number of people that actually use their digital copies for gaming is much smaller then the people that use their digital copies for reference. It's easier to open up a properly made PDF and find something then it is in a 300 page book.
However, to ask people to buy a PDF for $35.. the same price of the actual book... THAT'S criminal. Especially when they already spent $35 on the actual book.
Now I sit on both sides of the fence. I use the shadey community as a way to get a good look at products before I buy them. The OGL put a lot of junk on the market, junk that I and others bought, and not all of it came from 3rd party publishers. No longer do I want to spend $35 on a book that has nothing I can use OR ALREADY HAVE. Sure there's sit in the bookstore and read the book for an hour, but I'd rather do that at home in my comfortable chair.
I don't believe for a second that the number of people actively using illegal copies of rpg books is greater then the number of people that download those same books, liked what they saw, and decided to buy a printed copy of it. If the person was stupid enough to believe their ink cartridge is cheaper and printed the whole book out themselves.. well.. they deserve what they got.
SirUrza to me that was well said.
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I have to say I really like the production quality. That doesn't extend to the content of the book, unfortunately, but it's good to see that they've stepped up at least the layout and quality of the production. It's nice and clean without dark, annoying edges around every page.
As for content... well, I may take a read through on the weekend. I'm sure there will be a few threads for "Review" type material there. There should also be some threads for "how did they do this? Or this? Or can you tell me what the 24th level spell is for this?" by then, too. ;)
Marc
If the person was stupid enough to believe their ink cartridge is cheaper and printed the whole book out themselves.. well.. they deserve what they got.
I agree.
Though it surprises me that these people are bright enough to find the downloads to start with... or start their computers... or dress themselves :P
Careful there or you alienate the roleplaying nudist community!
I ain't worried 'bout them pre-verts! :P
However, to ask people to buy a PDF for $35.. the same price of the actual book... THAT'S criminal.
It's ridiculous, that's what it is.
And actually, since you could usually get a good deal for the books, the PDFs actually cost more than the books!
I've seen them. The books ARE pretty. The interesting thing is the new way 4e uses feats. You don't buy skills anymore. From the PHB:
When you create your character, you should determine
your base skill check bonus for each skill you
know. Your base skill check bonus for a skill includes
the following:
> One-half your level
> Your ability score modifier (each skill is based on one
of your ability scores)
> A +5 bonus if you're trained in the skillSounds similar to Pathfinder Alpha 1 doesn't it?
Yeah, and that was scraped because it was too restrictive.
I think this new system is rubbish.
Well, anyone hoping that 4e would put Wizards out of business or that these PDFs would destroy all sales of the game will be disappointed.
You know, despite not following the game into its' new iteration I am most pleased that the new books are selling well. The people at WotC are good folks, and I am happy that the D&D game will continue in all its' wonderous forms. I was just reading an adventure that Bill Slavisek did for 2e Planescape and it was as good as anything being put out today, even with having to rule convert. I wish them all the best of luck with their new game.
Back to press. This is good for everyone.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You know, despite not following the game into its' new iteration I am most pleased that the new books are selling well. The people at WotC are good folks, and I am happy that the D&D game will continue in all its' wonderous forms. I was just reading an adventure that Bill Slavisek did for 2e Planescape and it was as good as anything being put out today, even with having to rule convert. I wish them all the best of luck with their new game.Well, anyone hoping that 4e would put Wizards out of business or that these PDFs would destroy all sales of the game will be disappointed.
QFT
Well, anyone hoping that 4e would put Wizards out of business or that these PDFs would destroy all sales of the game will be disappointed.
I think it's unfair comparing a revision to an new edition/game. Compare it to the 3.0 books.
Selling out right away pretty much just means they got pre-orders and stores purchased most of the books. It doesn't reflect much on the idea of players purchasing the material. I'd be surprised if the initial sales were not great, I'm sure they will be. If they stay that way and don't drop drastically then the game is successful. If the stores have a lot of left over merchandise from the first, second, or third printing then I think the overall success of the game is debatable. Most people will decide what they think of it after they have read/played it for awhile. I do think they will lose more "old" customers then picking up new ones though. I also believe that the fan base they keep will go back to buying a lot more than they were with the tail end of 3.5.
4E is not D&D, bottomline.
I laugh because people like Razz will migrate over eventually... Have fun with "Pathfinder" or whatever the hell you claim you'll be buying instead.
4E is not D&D, bottomline.
I laugh because people like Razz will migrate over eventually... Have fun with "Pathfinder" or whatever the hell you claim you'll be buying instead.
Based on what?
There are people that still play original D&D (many of whom have bought more recent versions). Is 4e so divinely-inspired and a purely wondrous creation that we'll all see the light in the end?
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There are people that still play original D&D (many of whom have bought more recent versions). Is 4e so divinely-inspired and a purely wondrous creation that we'll all see the light in the end?
You are right. Some folks will play older editions. Given the sales figures and the buzz I would guess that they will be a small group - possibly statistically insignificant.
I think you will see a whole lot of people playing both for a while. But those that stick exclusively with 3e will be a very small bunch that will shrink every year.
I think it's unfair comparing a revision to an new edition/game. Compare it to the 3.0 books.
Quite right. It's dishonest statistics to compare a point upgrade to a major release. I'm sure it's still selling really well, but there's no need to inject marketroid-speak into it.
I do think they will lose more "old" customers then picking up new ones though.
I think this is a distinct possibility.
IMO roleplayers get into the hobby through other players -- they don't (typically) see a book on a shelf and say "let's try this!" So WotC has two ways to get new players into D&D (which they obviously want desperately):
- Convince long-time gamers to switch to 4e. I think they're doing a rather lackluster job of cozying up to this population.
- Have a more aggressive, innovative marketing plan that successfully brings in new players that want to start from scratch. Good marketing from WotC -- yeah.
I think things may be a bit of a coin toss, though I expect WotC will do well enough in the end.
Based on what?
There are people that still play original D&D (many of whom have bought more recent versions). Is 4e so divinely-inspired and a purely wondrous creation that we'll all see the light in the end?
Based on experience. The people that still play original D&D are a small fraction of the people who play D&D. In fact, I know a guy who insists on playing 2nd Edition instead of newer editions. You know what? He has no one to play with.
I'd say the large majority of holdouts will eventually switch over and start playing 4th Edition. If only to have people to play with.
And to respond to your new players, I have actually met kids who have gotten into roleplaying for the first time by purchasing the new shiny book off the shelf. In fact, that's how I found out about 3rd Edition... I went over to my nephew's house and his little buddy had a copy of the 3rd Edition PHB. He had never played before, so I learned the rules and ran a game for them.
I think you will see a whole lot of people playing both for a while. But those that stick exclusively with 3e will be a very small bunch that will shrink every year.
Agreed. It's hard to stick to your guns on such a thing when all official support dries up.
With respect to Paizo, I don't think Pathfinder is going to be enough to make up for this. If I'm wrong, good for Paizo and 3.5 fans.
As always, time will tell.
Personally, I think that 3.5e/Pathfinder will eventually become the biggest and best supported of the d20/OGL fantasy games, but it will still be a niche market. Despite the wishes of many fans, it will probably not harm 4e sales or the impact the spread of the game (I actually think that ultimately, much of the PRPG audience will play both games). It will certainly not inspire Hasbro to sell the D&D brand to Paizo as some would wish.
Based on experience. The people that still play original D&D are a small fraction of the people who play D&D.
Old edition players are a small fraction of D&D players. Razz and those who don't think that 4e is D&D (me included) are probably a small fraction, too. So it fits.
I'd say the large majority of holdouts will eventually switch over and start playing 4th Edition. If only to have people to play with.
Not me. I do have people to play with. And before I buy another wizards product, I'll go get myself WoW. At least that one has gnomes and druids. And it's prettier.
And frankly, you can keep your armchair prophesising to yourself, it only makes you seem arrogant. When you catch me or Razz buying a 4e book, you can jump out from behind the bookshelf and shout "told you!", but until then, don't assume anything about us based on your friends. We're not your friends. People are different.
Agreed. It's hard to stick to your guns on such a thing when all official support dries up.
But support for 3e doesn't dry up. There's already over a year worth of adventure paths and adventures planned, and we'll get a shiny new rulebook in August 2009, a campaign setting 12 months before that, and lots of setting and rules supplements.
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Personally, I think that 3.5e/Pathfinder will eventually become the biggest and best supported of the d20/OGL fantasy games, but it will still be a niche market. Despite the wishes of many fans, it will probably not harm 4e sales or the impact the spread of the game (I actually think that ultimately, much of the PRPG audience will play both games). It will certainly not inspire Hasbro to sell the D&D brand to Paizo as some would wish.
I was very excited about Pathfinder. Then the public playtest seemed to turn into "design by committee" and my interest level dropped. Then I read the 4e core books and rand a feew games and now even reading a 3.5/OGL book brings no joy at all. I will buy Pathfinder but I doubt i will ever run it though i may play it now and again - at cons and such.
Not me. I do have people to play with. And before I buy another wizards product, I'll go get myself WoW. At least that one has gnomes and druids. And it's prettier.
And frankly, you can keep your armchair prophesising to yourself, it only makes you seem arrogant. When you catch me or Razz buying a 4e book, you can jump out from behind the bookshelf and shout "told you!", but until then, don't assume anything about us based on your friends. We're not your friends. People are different.
I'm not trying to be arrogant, it's just common sense. I guess "people like you and Razz" are going to be tiny minority that still plays old editions. That's fine.
I just find it hilarious that despite showing no interest in playing 4th Edition and professing your love for the new Pathfinder RPG you are posting in a 4th Edition forum. Ironic? I think so. Obviously you are interested in what is going on here, otherwise, why would you even be reading, let alone posting, in a 4th Edition forum?
The books are out (in some form or another). KotS is out. It's entirely possible to make a deduction about whether you'll enjoy and switch over to 4th Edition. So if you know you aren't why talk about it?? Hilarious.
Go play WoW - or better yet, 3.9 Edition Pathfinder - and leave us to discuss the game with people that are playing, or thinking about playing 4th Edition. Capiche?
What keeps many 1st, 2nd, 3.0, and 3.5 players posting and continuing to discuss the pros and cons of 4th edition is the many years of dedication, loyalty, and the hundred perhaps thousands of games of D&D they have played over the coarse of 1, 2, even 3 decades. Clearly this gives cause to a emotional investment in the game, just as it has for 4th edition players. An emotional investment allows us to want to see things through over the coarse of the good times and bad times. What one perceives as bad times, another will see as good times. Either way the emotional investment has been made and posting on message boards regardless of the topic shows that!
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What keeps many 1st, 2nd, 3.0, and 3.5 players posting and continuing to discuss the pros and cons of 4th edition is the many years of dedication, loyalty, and the hundred perhaps thousands of games of D&D they have played over the coarse of 1, 2, even 3 decades. Clearly this gives cause to a emotional investment in the game, just as it has for 4th edition players. An emotional investment allows us to want to see things through over the coarse of the good times and bad times. What one perceives as bad times, another will see as good times. Either way the emotional investment has been made and posting on message boards regardless of the topic shows that!
I can see where you are coming from but the question remains - if the emotional investment in 4e is simply negative then why stay engaged with it? Why not avoid the sting by sticking with the topics that will bring you satisfaction rather than those that cause you pain?
...players posting and continuing to discuss the pros and cons of 4th edition...
I think you've sorely mistaken me.
I'm not talking about people that are still on the fence debating pros and cons of 4th Edition. I'm talking about people who have said they do not like 4th Edition whatsoever and do not ever plan to switch to the system - i.e. Razz and his minions posting above.
For those folks, there are still d20/OGL forums available to discuss what they have is "now D&D". These people don't even CONSIDER 4th Edition a version of D&D...
I'm all for people who aren't completely sold on 4th Edition to continue talking and debating - keep on! Keep on!
But, for those who have made it clear they are not at all interested in 4th Edition, I find it hilarious they continue to read and post in a forum dedicated to the game. To me, that implies - maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow - but eventually, they'll switch over. If not, why not post and discuss things in the "real D&D" forums?
My prediction is that Razz will be playing a Dragonborn Battle Priest before the end of 2009. :)
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I'd like to point out for the "based on experience" arguement proponents that the same mantra was used as an explanation for their conclusion that all the major 3PP's would quickly switch to support 4E. Because everyone in the entire industry knew that 3.x proponents could not support a company for very long.
Then, on March 18th, Paizo announced PRPG. They've stated their sales have gone up as a result despite the subscriptions dropped by 4E proponents.
At least a few of the 4E proponents at that time admitted they were erroneous in their prediction. As far as I recall, none of them conceded before hand that it was even a remote possibility any of the major 3PP's would stay 3.x. I may be wrong on that recollection, I'll concede.
As I said before, this is not the same scenario as what has happened with previous editions switches and that is because of the perpetual OGL. We can have support for 3.x or PRPG until you're on D&D 42nd edition and beyond and there's nothing WoTC can do about it short of massive lobbying effort. I doubt Hasbro really cares enough to fund that.
Its possible that you will be correct, I freely admit that, but I would at least pause before laying any serious money on your position.
You may be wrong.
If Paizo didn't already have a mascot, I'd suggest they use a dark horse. The irony would amuse me greatly.
As always, may your dice rarely roll a "1" and may you enjoy your games with friends and family, regardless of edition.
FP
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I can see where you are coming from but the question remains - if the emotional investment in 4e is simply negative then why stay engaged with it? Why not avoid the sting by sticking with the topics that will bring you satisfaction rather than those that cause you pain?
For awhile there CWM we could have asked you the same thing based on you problems with 3.x. Nonetheless you stuck to your guns and debated 3.x's merits for a long time despite flames directed your way.
...players posting and continuing to discuss the pros and cons of 4th edition...I think you've sorely mistaken me.
I'm not talking about people that are still on the fence debating pros and cons of 4th Edition. I'm talking about people who have said they do not like 4th Edition whatsoever and do not ever plan to switch to the system - i.e. Razz and his minions posting above.
For those folks, there are still d20/OGL forums available to discuss what they have is "now D&D". These people don't even CONSIDER 4th Edition a version of D&D...
I'm all for people who aren't completely sold on 4th Edition to continue talking and debating - keep on! Keep on!
But, for those who have made it clear they are not at all interested in 4th Edition, I find it hilarious they continue to read and post in a forum dedicated to the game. To me, that implies - maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow - but eventually, they'll switch over. If not, why not post and discuss things in the "real D&D" forums?
My prediction is that Razz will be playing a Dragonborn Battle Priest before the end of 2009. :)
No mistake made. My post was an explanation for why various people would continue to post in any thread topic, regardless of whether they are pro-topic, not pro-topic, on the fence, or share another view. It isn't a right or wrong thing. An emotional investment over such a period of time invokes responses and so long as they remain respectful to others a variety of opinions should be acceptable.
I have the very same emotional investment I spoke of earlier. I have made my opinion of the various editions of D&D well known, beginning with 1st edition all the way through the current one. I continue to read and occasionally post concerning topics of interest to me regardless of whether I am pro, non-pro, or on the fence. For those who feel that the new version of D&D isn't one that they would care to invest in or play, posting is part of a grieving process for what they feel were better times. For those who feel 4th edition is an imporvement to the game and provides a greater value in entertainment, it is a celebration. There is nothing wrong with either in my opinion.
What keeps many 1st, 2nd, 3.0, and 3.5 players posting and continuing to discuss the pros and cons of 4th edition is the many years of dedication, loyalty, and the hundred perhaps thousands of games of D&D they have played over the coarse of 1, 2, even 3 decades. Clearly this gives cause to a emotional investment in the game, just as it has for 4th edition players. An emotional investment allows us to want to see things through over the coarse of the good times and bad times. What one perceives as bad times, another will see as good times. Either way the emotional investment has been made and posting on message boards regardless of the topic shows that!I can see where you are coming from but the question remains - if the emotional investment in 4e is simply negative then why stay engaged with it? Why not avoid the sting by sticking with the topics that will bring you satisfaction rather than those that cause you pain?
Hi Crosswiredmind, good to speak with you again, it has been awhile. Hopefully I answered your question in the post above. For those who are wishing for different times it takes a given amount of thought and time to become "OK" with change. I know that has been the case with me. Becoming "OK" with things doesn't necessarily mean acceptance and approval but it does allow people to work through the very negative emotions you speak of. I do believe that is why you continue to see postings by those less enthusiatic of 4th edition.
I'd like to point out for the "based on experience" arguement proponents that the same mantra was used as an explanation for their conclusion that all the major 3PP's would quickly switch to support 4E. Because everyone in the entire industry knew that 3.x propoentns could not support a company for very long.
You may be wrong.
Hasn't Paizo already announced support for 4th Edition? I'd say that's pretty quick...
Also, yes, I may be wrong. The whole 3.x population might stick with OGL products and continue playing iterations of 3.x all the way up to the umpteenth variation of it, dubbed - 3.9999999999 Version.
But, my gut tells me no. That won't happen. Most people will migrate to 4th Edition. They'll play it, and they'll get comfortable with it, and eventually they'll look at 3.x Edition as something of an archaic form of D&D much as OD&D and AD&D do now. The people who continue to play 3.x will shrink drastically as time moves on as has been said before.
I'm not trying to be a d@#&%ead, and apologize for being so blunt, but I'm just being realistic.
I laugh because people like Razz will migrate over eventually... Have fun with "Pathfinder" or whatever the hell you claim you'll be buying instead.
I'm not trying to be arrogant, it's just common sense. I guess "people like you and Razz" are going to be tiny minority that still plays old editions. That's fine.I just find it hilarious that despite showing no interest in playing 4th Edition and professing your love for the new Pathfinder RPG you are posting in a 4th Edition forum. Ironic? I think so. Obviously you are interested in what is going on here, otherwise, why would you even be reading, let alone posting, in a 4th Edition forum?
The books are out (in some form or another). KotS is out. It's entirely possible to make a deduction about whether you'll enjoy and switch over to 4th Edition. So if you know you aren't why talk about it?? Hilarious.
Go play WoW - or better yet, 3.9 Edition Pathfinder - and leave us to discuss the game with people that are playing, or thinking about playing 4th Edition. Capiche?
First off: Nice trolling.
Second off: You are being a dick whether your trying to be or not.
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I can see where you are coming from but the question remains - if the emotional investment in 4e is simply negative then why stay engaged with it? Why not avoid the sting by sticking with the topics that will bring you satisfaction rather than those that cause you pain?For awhile there CWM we could have asked you the same thing based on you problems with 3.x. Nonetheless you stuck to your guns and debated 3.x's merits for a long time despite flames directed your way.
Very true. Then again this is the 4e forum. When I first started posting here I was amazed how much bashing was going on. I thought it should have been called the 4th Edition Punching Bag board.
I stuck to my guns because I was actually interested in discussing the relative pros and cons of 4e.
Over the months the folks that decided to stick with 3e/OGL have mostly moved on to other boards.
This recent flare up seems to be another troll invasion. If there are folk here that are still interested in dialogue I am totally cool with that, but they are few and far between.
It's like a Redskins fan posting to an Eagles message board. Sure we both like football but why would you post there if you had no interest in supporting the Birds. Well, the only reason i can think of is to cause trouble. Sure we would both share a love of football but does that mean the Skins fan should be there?
Now a Ravens fan that has decided to ditch their team for a real team ;P may want to post to both a DC and Philly board but that would be a rare occurrence since Ravens fans are all crazy to begin with ... joking ... kind of.
Then, on March 18th, Paizo announced PRPG. They've stated their sales have gone up as a result despite the subscriptions dropped by 4E proponents.
With Paizo's great staff and wonderful work so far, I believe that their sales would have gone up even if they had gone the 4e route.
For those who feel that the new version of D&D isn't one that they would care to invest in or play, posting is part of a grieving...
Well, for one, you've mistaken me again. I never said anything about a "right or wrong" thing. I simply said I thought it was hilarious that people would spend time debating and discussing a thing they wanted no part of.
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For me, if Coke came out with a new product that eclipsed, in popularity and sales, the old Coca Cola I know and love (this is an example, I don't really drink pop), and that new Coke tasted awful to me and I never planned to drink it. I just wouldn't come to a new Coke forum and bash the new Coke as any sort of "grieving process" - especially after the Coke has been released, I've tasted it, know I won't ever buy or drink it, and don't see any sort of way to make it taste better. In addition - another company has put out a drink VERY similar in taste to the old Coke...
Just doesn't make sense to post in that new Coke forum. Although, I very well may post in a "old Coke" forum and partake in like-minded individuals about how great the old Coke was...
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I also never said that a variety of opinions was unacceptable. In fact, I said specifically I was all for the debating and discussing of 4th Editions pros and cons. There are some things in 4th Edition that I am still unsure about actually. I never once said people who were interested in discussing 4th Edition shouldn't post.
My point is: someone who has no interest in 4th Edition (new Coke) and plans to never invest in it, buy it, play it, drink it, AND has 3.x/Pathfinder (new Coke) forums to discuss their preferred version of the game, really doesn't have anything to contribute to the forums do they?
These people are here to simply troll the boards and find any possible way to demerit the "new Coke".
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...players posting and continuing to discuss the pros and cons of 4th edition...I think you've sorely mistaken me.
I'm not talking about people that are still on the fence debating pros and cons of 4th Edition. I'm talking about people who have said they do not like 4th Edition whatsoever and do not ever plan to switch to the system - i.e. Razz and his minions posting above.
For those folks, there are still d20/OGL forums available to discuss what they have is "now D&D". These people don't even CONSIDER 4th Edition a version of D&D...
I'm all for people who aren't completely sold on 4th Edition to continue talking and debating - keep on! Keep on!
But, for those who have made it clear they are not at all interested in 4th Edition, I find it hilarious they continue to read and post in a forum dedicated to the game. To me, that implies - maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow - but eventually, they'll switch over. If not, why not post and discuss things in the "real D&D" forums?
My prediction is that Razz will be playing a Dragonborn Battle Priest before the end of 2009. :)
The reason that people still feel the need to post despite not going to 4E is for two reasons that I see:
1.) 4E could make PRPG or 3.5 players scarce. Posting to point out the pros and cons of systems could sway more to a certain line of thinking.2.) There isn't a '4E Debate' board. People who have had issues with 3.5, or disliked the system for whatever reason, posted in the 3.5 threads. If people have issues with or dislike 4.0 they shouldn't post in the 4.0 threads? Why?
Just because someone doesn't want to play something doesn't mean that they can't express an opinion of it and where should that opinion be expressed......
Perhaps they aren't here as an interest in 4E, maybe they are trying to sway more to their side to help their own system.
I will never play 4E no matter how many times someone tells me that I will. It doesn't matter why but I want people to play what I play so there is more breadth in my game's community. People on the fence are tempting targets...
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Hasn't Paizo already announced support for 4th Edition? I'd say that's pretty quick...
Paizo is supporting 4E through the Necromancer 4E products and to be fair to them if they could support both within house I'm sure they would. What I was trying and failing to convey was the prediction they would drop all 3.x products ASAP.
Also, yes, I may be wrong. The whole 3.x population might stick with OGL products and continue playing iterations of 3.x all the way up to the umpteenth variation of it, dubbed - 3.9999999999 Version.
Thank you. Admitting that the possibility, no matter how small, that you're wrong is something that many people on both sides of the fence should really consider.
But, my gut tells me no. That won't happen. Most people will migrate to 4th Edition. They'll play it, and they'll get comfortable with it, and eventually they'll look at 3.x Edition as something of an archaic form of D&D much as OD&D and AD&D do now. The people who continue to play 3.x will shrink drastically as time moves on as has been said before.
That's fine for your prediction and I respect that analysis of the history of edition switches. My mind tells me that this is a disntuishable fact pattern due to the OGL because for the first time another company can produce for the older edition. My gut tells me there won't be such a large migration that at 5th edition roll out people will say "everyone always switches and never plays the old editions."
Of course I could be wrong.
I'm not trying to be a d%&%@ead, and apologize for being so blunt, but I'm just being realistic.
Bluntness is ok as long as personal attacks are not "covered." I haven't seen you make personal attacks, you just spoke your mind. As for the realism, well we're arguing about realistic expectations for a fantasy game. Now there's irony.
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Becoming "OK" with things doesn't necessarily mean acceptance and approval but it does allow people to work through the very negative emotions you speak of. I do believe that is why you continue to see postings by those less enthusiatic of 4th edition.
I get where you are coming from. The folks that want to talk through their perceptions and emotions are always welcome because they do add to the dialogue.
By working through very negative emotions in a place that people are trying to carry on a civil discussion though positive for those with the negative emotions is not always very pleasant for the rest of us.
I appreciate that some may have negative emotions that need to be worked through but they are doing it by making this place their own personal chamber pot.
Your analysis of the negativity here may also be giving some folks too much credit. It may not be the case that the noise here is the result of keyboard therapy - it may be that some of these folks are just trolls.
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Very true. Then again this is the 4e forum. When I first started posting here I was amazed how much bashing was going on. I thought it should have been called the 4th Edition Punching Bag board.
I stuck to my guns because I was actually interested in discussing the relative pros and cons of 4e.
Over the months the folks that decided to stick with 3e/OGL have mostly moved on to other boards.
This recent flare up seems to be another troll invasion. If there are folk here that are still interested in dialogue I am totally cool with that, but they are few and far between.
Its not entirely one sided. Not everyone who's sure 4E's is right for them has refrained from jumping into bash 3.x or PRPG. One person in particular jumps to mind but I definitely agree its not you.
The recent flare up is because of the release and I beleive even you predicted there would be another rash about now months ago. Things will eventually settle down as people digest and move on. Of course I'll predict right now there will be a flare, admittedly smaller, when the PRPG gets released in 2009.
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Then, on March 18th, Paizo announced PRPG. They've stated their sales have gone up as a result despite the subscriptions dropped by 4E proponents.
With Paizo's great staff and wonderful work so far, I believe that their sales would have gone up even if they had gone the 4e route.
Maybe, in fact probably, but my point was that predictions that 3PPs who refused to produce 4E would obviously die were a little... premature.