Director of Game Design
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On potion throwing:
Quickdraw isn't necessary - just one rank in Sleight of Hand (which hasn't been altered by Paizo). Sleight of Hand lets you do pull out any item as a free action by taking a -20 to the check. The thing is, failing a sleight of hand check doesn't actually cause you to not draw (or pocket) the item, it just means other creatures notice. Which if you're a potion thrower you don't care, because they're about to get a face full of it anyway.
Hmm, that is a weird rules loophole. Thanks for pointing it out.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I want to feel that the Monk is part of the Pathfinder setting. That the Monk exists alongside other classes, using weapons that are part of the world, but doing things differently from how a Rogue or Fighter would do them.
I want to avoid the fate the Monk received when 3.0 Plunked them down oh so unceremoniously with a weapon list of things nobody in the game world has ever heard of or pronounced, with a flavor that doesn't even jive with most of the artwork.
Monastaries were plunked down in previously existing settings where they didn't exist, all to find some explanation for these strangers existing somewhere in solitude training and using weapons nobody else knows how to use.
They were called Monks for a reason, they're not just average sword swingers who got a bit of ambition in thier stride, or pocket picking street punks. A large part of the appeal for roleplaying the Monk has always been the exotic atmosphere of mystery they bring with them. And yes, they were based largely on Chinese Saturday flicks and other related media. Turn them into just "everyday folks" and you might as well just drop the class entirely in favor of creating some new feats for fighters and rogues to use. The flavor can be changed, to the point we're they're Hobgoblin Martial Artists instead of Monks, but the exotic is always what gave this class the fun it had.
It's hard to imagine what the criteria is you're shooting for? Do you want the Monk to be an automatic part of Squirrel's "Fantastic Four"? If so, which of those classic roles would he be looking to displace? I don't think you can regear the Monk to replace any of the standard fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue set for a standard pre-bought module, but home campaigns can be made a lot more flexible than anything you buy from a store, even if that store is Paizo.
In the settings that Monks were taken from, the weapons they use and much of what is 'exotic' about them IS familiar and well-understood by the other characters. Martial artist monks are largely taken from Asian settings (though I wouldn't mind something like desert monastics with scimitars and no armor) Where all of the 'exotic' flavor and weapons you talk about exist outside their monastery as well.
There /are/ differences between a Fighter and a Monk in an Asian/Anime/Wuxia setting, and that's what I think they should focus on, rather than making the monk represent 'guy who came to Medieval European Fantasy world from a monastary in Mystical Asia' and make it 'Guy who trains martial arts in a monastery and uses martial arts, farm implements, and simple weapons as a focus for his meditation.'
Otherwise why not include a class based on Australian mysticism who uses only Aboriginal weapons, because it's cool, even if it doesn't fit in?
That's why I like a lot of Pathfinder's new art and fluff, making the world seem more exotic, so it fits together. Even the WOTC campaign settings had trouble fitting Monks in for the most part once they were introduced in core.
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So,
I think we are starting to see what I felt has been the problem with the monk all along, the fact that they cannot really gain the same kind of bonuses to their unarmed strikes as others can with their weapons without paying a ridiculous cost.
I have been working on a way for them to do this, that is, apply weapon enhancements (such as +1 and flaming) to their fists at a reasonable price. The tripping point was not the idea, but the in game implementation. I thought of some sort of hand wrapping, rings, or maybe bracers, but these are really going off the beaten path, as they are not, in and of themselves, weapons.
I am hoping to get something like this into the Beta. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingHow about expanding the ki pool and letting the monk use ki to enhance his unarmed strike in various ways for one round, such as spend 1 ki for a +1 enhancement to all attacks as a swift action, spend 2 ki to overcome a specific type of dmg reduction (silver, cold iron, evil, etc.), spend 3 to add holy/unholy dmg and so on. Not saying that the examples I've given are a good ki point cost, just throwing something out to think about.
EDIT: While I was away, it looks as if this has been suggested a time or 2, sorry 'bout that. I still think it's a good idea and wouldn't necessitate new weapons or slots.
I second this. Might be worth its own thread.
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Monks are more than just asian kung fu masters. Here are some of the monks I have played or DMed in the years since 1st ed. (all of which fit in the Pathfinder retrofit)
Asian feel
shaolin monk (think Bruce Li)
weapon master (think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon)
sumo wrestler
drunken master (think Jackie Chan)
serene contemplative (think Ancient One from Dr. Strange comics)
Indian feel
Yoga Rishi or Sadhu(wise man, supremely disciplined, living on nearly nothing and possessing nothing, self-denial)
Buddhist bhikkhu or monk (simplicity but not denial, spartan discipline over life's passions, teacher)
Tantric master (opposite of rishi, extolling acceptance and indulgence as a path to eliminating opposition to the world)
Arabian feel
muslim sufi (poet, parable teller, wanderer)
dervish (dancing, ecstatic, focused on rhthyms of life expressed through the body)
Western feel
Judaic nazarite (obssessed with ritual purity, observance of their God's laws and with rooting out sacrilige; contemplative and chaste; lives in desert away from the city, seeks to purge out impurities in his soul)
Christian-style monk (focused on sexual abstinance and contemplation of the divine mystery, service to the poor and downtrodden, renunciation of wealth and preservation of knowledge; disconnected from a church hierarchy and identifying with the oppressed wherever they are; here the simple weapon proficiency becomes critical and swapping out unarmed combat for 'use anything as a weapon' for the same damage is critical
primitive/barbaric culture
Witch Doctor (focus on fetish object and gains power through mystic communication with the spirit world)
A terrific monk class is one whose features and spirit are able to encompass all of those milieus and broad aspects, not just the kung fu master. The Pathfinder project offers us all real promise to finally attain this promise.
After all, they fixed the sorcerer, paladin, fighter and wizard already.
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Of the above, Witch Doctors are just a palette shift for Adepts, and the Judeo-Christian monks are properly Clerics; don't get hung up on the name!
As for the others, the proposed "melee debuffer/mobility specialist" actually fits in well with the cinematic hollywood (and thus D&D) version of those vocations. I could see a Sufi who grabs your hand, and breathes the word of God in your face, and you are Dazed by the holiness of it; or a Dervish who moves smoothly through the chaos of combat because he is ecstatically one with space and time; or the Yogi who is immune to poison, and knows the pressure points to make your sword arm useless; or the kung-fu master who can channel the spirits of water and flame into his punches.
On potion throwing:
Quickdraw isn't necessary - just one rank in Sleight of Hand (which hasn't been altered by Paizo). Sleight of Hand lets you do pull out any item as a free action by taking a -20 to the check. The thing is, failing a sleight of hand check doesn't actually cause you to not draw (or pocket) the item, it just means other creatures notice. Which if you're a potion thrower you don't care, because they're about to get a face full of it anyway.Blink: Concealment (20%) isn't enough to deny dex to AC. You need 50% (Total Concealment), which you can get by being invisible when your opponent cannot see invisible, by blinking when your opponent cannot see ethereally, being behind an illusory wall they haven't disbelieved yet (and if someone *just cast it*, they haven't had a chance to interact with it yet), or being inside a Leomund's Tiny Hut while they're outside. Or really, any number of other things (such as - they are blind).
Timing: The 'prepare a splash weapon' description is clearly talking about lighting a fuse, something that is unnecessary with alchemists fire and vials of acid in the Core, and there are versions for every element except sonic in splashbooks (i forget which one off the top of my head, actually). These are just 'element in a bottle' attacks, and you're just throwing the bottle. If you want to throw 'vials of oil' you're going to either prepare them (ie, light a fuse) or light them after you get oil on the target - and that's what that action is talking about. (I'm not going to debate this point further, the rules on this are clearly spelled out if you read them in detail and its been argued to death on other forums).
I don't have a problem with potion throwers - the rogue spends a lot of money by 20th level on an item that will let him get sneak attack most of the time (barring special sensory modes) as a potion thrower. He's also not abusing wraithstrike to do the same thing with a magical weapon (which deals more damage), which makes me happy (because...
After reading the rule I don't think that Sleight of Hand would allow you to draw a weapon as a free action. The only thing the rule says is that drawing a hidden weapon (one that was hidden by Sleight of Hand) is a standard action. Sleight of hand allows you to hide the objects not draw them.
The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.
Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.
However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.
Try Again
Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10.
This isn't Schrodinger's Rogue, where an observer makes his fingers become clumsy. Raising the DC because of the 'try again' factor shows to me a minimum for the rogue to match in order for people to not automatically notice, but does not prevent him from actually doing so.
How about actually reading the SRD on the matter. Or reading the quote from it that I quoted. The DC 20 is explicitly for pocketing something off another creature, not for hiding/retrieving things from your own person. Its covered 5 paragraphs down after a full description of other actions you can take w/ SoH. Different use, different DC.
And the SRD allows you to take any action as a free action - its covered under "Action", and does not limit which type of actions you may use it on.
Edit: Ah, you meant to object in that sense. A weapon is still an object - you could still pull it out of your pocket like any other object with sleight of hand. Just because its a weapon doesn't mean its fundamentally different from anything else.
As to illusions:
The creature needs to study it carefully or interact with it. Other creatures or things interacting with it do not give it a saving throw. (And remember this is a magical world where spells like Passwall and creatures like Xorns exist, so seeing something travel through a wall isn't actually that strange, assuming he sees the object travel through the wall).Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
It doesn't allow you to take any action. It allows you to take Sleight of Hand actions as a free action.
Action
Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.
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Director of Game Design
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Jason:
As long as i've got you looking at SoH, there's really something more egregious than the use of sleight of hand as free Quickdraw. Its only a DC40 to take an item, *any item*, from another creature as a free action. This leads to totally ridiculous things like the rogue running up to the BBEG and stripping him in the first round of combat, dropping all his gear, magical or otherwise, at his feet. Yeah, the rogue can't take anything he's *holding* (ie, hope he drew his weapon), but he can remove anything else including his *armor*. As a *free action*. That's just crazy. (And given we're talking about a rogue who can make a DC 40 SoH check, his opponent...
Well, since we are off topic, I am changing the +20 makes it a free action bit. It will now be a +20 to make it a move action. I am also going to put in some language that prevents you from removing armor or clothing. Gear seems fine to me, but pulling off someone's boots seems just wrong.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
solves that problem. :P
Getting back to the monk, any chance we can get some clarification on what , if anything, modifies CMB seeing is the monk has many of the improved-feats and also a fair number of ways to effect opponent/combat condition? (specifically if blindsiding somebody, catching them flatfooted in any way effects that number, or if loss of dexterity effects agile maneuvers)
I've run into this problem playing around with CMB, and I'm going to run into it alot more with the monk given his skillsets and improved CMB.
That or are these decisions still in the works?
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Jason:
As long as i've got you looking at SoH, there's really something more egregious than the use of sleight of hand as free Quickdraw. Its only a DC40 to take an item, *any item*, from another creature as a free action. This leads to totally ridiculous things like the rogue running up to the BBEG and stripping him in the first round of combat, dropping all his gear, magical or otherwise, at his feet. Yeah, the rogue can't take anything he's *holding* (ie, hope he drew his weapon), but he can remove anything else including his *armor*. As a *free action*. That's just crazy. (And given we're talking about a rogue who can make a DC 40 SoH check, his opponent...Well, since we are off topic, I am changing the +20 makes it a free action bit. It will now be a +20 to make it a move action. I am also going to put in some language that prevents you from removing armor or clothing. Gear seems fine to me, but pulling off someone's boots seems just wrong.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
THANK YOU! that meta-game mentality was getting a bit...insane. I didn't even want to comment on it...strange none of my players have EVER tried to use that loophole...
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Well, since we are off topic, I am changing the +20 makes it a free action bit. It will now be a +20 to make it a move action. I am also going to put in some language that prevents you from removing armor or clothing. Gear seems fine to me, but pulling off someone's boots seems just wrong.
Hey Jason,
Why not make it a swift action? That limits it still. And I'd say that it limits the attempt to something X pounds or lighter. Otherwise, you could snatch someone's greatsword from it's sheath ...
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I like the idea of the monk being a striker/controller by giving status ailments with his attacks (well, i am a Final Fantasy Tactics fan). The monk already stuns and kills (and is fairly easy for him to poison his own unnarmed attacks as he is immune to all poisons), so he should have a blinding attack, a moviment impairement attack (like caltrops), a silencing attack... What about a member paralyzing attack ? So he can put some arms out of commission for some rounds. If these are chakra breaking effects he attains by using his Ki, then he could affect a wide gamma of creatures as it would be not a physiology thing. Maybe even some exaustion attacks, sleeping attacks, curse attack, confusion attacks etc... Let the monk excel in conditions attacks.
And the monk might learn some status removement also, but thats another story.
Just throwing some ideas out there to make the Monk the master of combat maneuvers.
How about expanding the existing combat maneuvers (would probably require that the Monk has taken the Improved versions):
Bull Rush - follow along even if it exceeds your movement (this isn't spelled out, but do pushed opponents provoke AoO if they're pushed through threat zones? If not, this could be an extra Monk thing).
Disarm - you can "disarm" natural attacks - this is sort of like the nerve pinch thing people have been talking about. You could even "disarm" a dragon's breath weapon by temporarily paralyzing it's jaws. Would probably work for e.g. Wis modifier number of rounds.
Grapple - move directly to pin? Double the modifier (to +10) if your opponent doesn't break the grapple?
Overrun - Ignore extra legs and size. If the target doesn't move it's also damaged (in additon to being knocked prone), standard unarmed damage.
Sunder - slightly similar to Disarm above, in that it can be used against natural weapons, although with a longer duration. Deals damage also, of course.
Trip - Ignore extra legs and size, cannot be knocked prone if the attack fails.
Also just a comment on the potion throwing rogue mentioned earlier... has anyone heard of common sense?
Besides, its really not all that great a tactic. If the opponent is in melee you hit everyone around it with the splash damage. Throwing greek fire has a range increment of 10', so you don't want to do it against creatures with reach as ranged attacks cause AoO. If you move further away you then lessen your chance to hit, of course.
Besides, if you allow this, then it would also mean that if you miss with the thrown potion and it scatters, then whoever you hit would also suffer your full sneak attack.
But all in all I would let common sense prevail and say that you can't sneak attack with e.g. Alchemists fire.
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First, Monk Abilities need to be as good as comparable spells. One of my big beefs with the Monk is that many of his class features are worse than, and do not stack with, spell effects.Monk Speed: Monks are fast, right? right? Not really. A Monk is not even *as fast* as a full plate dwarf with boots of striding until level 6, about when the dwarf could pick them up if so inclined. More distubringly, if the party sorcerer hastest everybody, they all become as fast as level 8 monks, and the monk doesn't get any faster.
Slow Fall: This is totally cool and flavorful, yet for an ability with a dozen levels of progression still manages to be worse than Feather Fall.
That Jump Ability: Good, but remember that D&D characters event4a3ly learn to *fly*.
Flight:...
I totally agree with this post. Great points, Orion!
I'd say Monks should fly, see invisible things, have special attacks that inflict various Conditions on their targets (probably through a touch attack with a save)...
That sounds exciting...
I'd also say that I would like the Monk to be able to model the heroes from Crouching Tiger. Look at all the cool weapons they can use!
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But all in all I would let common sense prevail and say that you can't sneak attack with e.g. Alchemists fire.
Hear, hear. I'd never thought of this as a tactic before reading Frank's playtests on the boards, because it just doesn't seem possible. How do you apply precision-based damage to an exploding grenade? My fire burns hotter when you don't know it's there? That way lies madness.
Still, I agree that the monk needs more status-inflicting abilities. An interesting mechanic I've seen was in a PDF called the Devil's Players Guide, which had "hellish" variants of each class (amoung other things). The Devil Monk class had a variety of styles to pick from, each with a series of maneuvers. These were similar to the combat maneuver feats, but rather than being directly linked to each other, many required the target to be suffering from a certain status ailment to be targeted, or would have a greater effect if the target was blinded etc. Of course, the earliest attacks in each style inflicted these ailments on the target. This led to players coordinating the party, the wizard preparing status-spells he would normally have passed over so he could set up the more advanced monk attacks. The monk would delay 'til after the wizard's turn, and the wizard would cast "ray of nausea" or some such, allowing the monk to Great Leap or Dim Door (which I houseruled to a move action) over the combat to the status-ed target and pound him with a high-tier special attack. Of course, in a protracted combat the monk would often go through entire attack routines, especially when the casters were busy defending themselves or throwing Fireballs, but it made for some great pre-battle planning and really felt like an equal team, with the monk making a noticeable contribution.
I'd love for a similar system to be available in PFRPG, but I'll houserule it in as an option anyway, and I eagerly await any revision by the team.
TWB
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Actually common sense has nothing to do with it. A Rogue can sneak attack with a thrown weapon within 30ft. The extra damage is considered the same type as the weapon used. A flask of Alchemist's fire requires an attack roll and does direct damage when it hits, thus a rogue can apply their sneak attack damage to that attack if they satisfy the conditions (opp dex to AC is denied). It's no different than a rogue/sorcerer applying their sneak attack damage to a lesser orb of fire. See Complete Arcane.
Getting back on topic:
So Jason, could we get some feedback from you on the following issues:(1) What is a monk supposed to be doing offensively? DPS? Disabling Status Conditions? Combat Maneuvers?
(2) Monks should receive more bonuses to hit, but how? (Enhancement, use wis mod for to hit, both)? You seemed sympathetic to enhancement - is it enough?
(3) Should monks get these bonuses to hit from items only? Class features? Feats? (Wis to hit as a feat like weapon finesse gives dex to hit). Something else?
There are two alternate versions of a proposed monk fix.
My Monk Revision is more polished and was intended as a 'usable as is' demonstration piece, fixes things I considered issues with existing monk abilities and added the ki maneuver set of abilities to run off ki. It also rearranged a few abilities to make the progression work better.
It does rely on the existence of feats or items to make the monk hit often enough to matter, but I think a Zen Fighter feat (replace str to hit with wis to hit with 'monk weapons' and unarmed strikes) is a reasonable thing, and that the more readily available enhancement bonus was certainly in the works.
I only list it first because Xaaon's has incorporated some of my ideas into a more general framework.
Xaaon's Monk Revision is less polished but has more options. The level progression is rather uneven, but this could be a good start for a rather indepth workover. It requires slightly more work on a DMs part because he has to make choices. (Admittedly, this didn't seem to be a barrier to the Barbarian rage powers). It has the definite advantage of unifying all the ki/qi powers into one mechanic and letting the monk player choose the ones he wants. As far as I can tell, it didn't...
I like both yours and Xaaon's idea's on basic Monk, throw that in with the Wis mod's to hit ala weapon finesse, and the idea I had for Zen enhancements, you can get a truer feeling of the harrier who truly causes havoc on the battlefield. I just think Monk's should have most boosts revolve around Wis, I picture the old school Shaolin or Hindu master who will whip you a new booty hole not based on his physical frailty, but on his ability to know where to hit and touch.
Give the Monk the ability to draw out debilitating abilites using his Ki pool as a boost. Think Mr Miagi in the Karate Kid, easing Daniel-san and allowing him to continue, or knowing how to draw the poison out of someone through his zen mastery. A Monk could and should be a alt to the Cleric class in his ability to help "soothe" the party of ailments. Everyone thinks the Monk should be some kinda of straightforward fighter, but the Monk should be a true utility person, able to be either be a harrier or party booster, do some minor healings.
Also, as an aside, I always thought that a higher level monk should have such control over his body that he should either have Fast Healing 1 or have the ability to negate crits on his person ala how you see some Shaolin Monks able to be "pressed" up on the air on the tips of spear points, or how they can lay on a bed of nails or walk across hot coals with no damage. That to me is the way I see a Monk.
Again, just my .02
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Well all know that the Monk can not be everything to everyone and by making sure he is backwards compatible we are able to make sure that the class is at least moderately useful and likable to a large group of players.
After reading some of these posts I felt certain things should be pointed out.
from the SRD:
1. When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons.
2. Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
3. Gauntlet
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.
Gauntlet, Spiked
Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack.
Problem 1 a Monk does not have Gauntlets as a known weapon and they are considered Simple weapons.
Solution 1 well there isn't one you just take a -4 on your attacks while you wear the gauntlets that you are able to flurry with, We have since house-ruled a monk can use Gauntlets as a monk known weapon.
also might I point out
Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.
Benefit
You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price.
The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.
You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
as well as
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Actually common sense has nothing to do with it. A Rogue can sneak attack with a thrown weapon within 30ft. The extra damage is considered the same type as the weapon used. A flask of Alchemist's fire requires an attack roll and does direct damage when it hits, thus a rogue can apply their sneak attack damage to that attack if they satisfy the conditions (opp dex to AC is denied). It's no different than a rogue/sorcerer applying their sneak attack damage to a lesser orb of fire. See Complete Arcane.
In my opinion there is a big difference. First, regular thrown weapons (i.e. knives, daggers, darts etc.) deal damage from their point of impact, i.e. at the vital spot in case of sneak attacks.
Same with weaponlike spells, they impact at a certain location and does the damage there.A grenadelike weapon, i.e. Alchemist fire, doesn't depend on direct damage of the impact, but on widespread damage from being covered in the substance when the container breaks. Thus even if you aim for a vital spot, the actual damage is spread over a much wider area and doesn't benefit from the sneak attack.
Unless you can cite a rule which specifically states that grenadelike weapons can benefit from sneak attacks the rules can be read either way. Meaning that you might allow it in your campaign and I'll disallow it in my campaign, but you don't have any specific rule that supports the given example of grenadelike/splash weapons. A point of note is also that the rule you cite is from Complete Arcane, thus not from the SRD and not considered a core rule. Just on those grounds alone a DM is free to disallow these spell sneak attacks.
It's in the FAQ
You are right, the FAQ says:
Does a rogue apply sneak attack damage whenthrowing alchemist fire or casting a spell such as acid
splash?
Yes. The bonus damage from sneak attack, skirmish, or
sudden strike applies to any attack that requires an attack roll,
even touch attacks.
*****
So it would be allowable.
I, personally, still wouldn't allow it though, it just goes against what I perceive as "striking a vital spot" with the sneak attack.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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What I can hit a vital spot with a greataxe but I couldn't hit the space between the helm and breastplate or underarm of a figher with a pint sized glass flask? It's smaller than your average bottle of soda (20 oz in america). Just remember the skin is the largest organ on the humanoid body.
My ideas for a monk fix:
Add new light armor:
Robe +0 AC -Max Dex -ACP 5%SF 30 ft.
Special: This armor counts as unarmored for monk-ability purpose.
Add to improved unarmed damage:
For melee weapons you can use in flurries, you can choose to deal unarmed or standard weapon damage.
Now, fighters and monks are compatible, monks don't have to use armor bracers
and
they can do damage AND hit in combat.
Thoughts?
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I only list it first because Xaaon's has incorporated some of my ideas into a more general framework.
Xaaon's Monk Revision is less polished but has more options. The level progression is rather uneven, but this could be a good start for a rather indepth workover. It requires slightly more work on a DMs part because he has to make choices. (Admittedly, this didn't seem to be a barrier to the Barbarian rage powers). It has the definite advantage of unifying all the ki/qi powers into one mechanic and letting the monk player choose the ones he wants. As far as I can tell, it didn't...
Yeah the reason my level progression is uneven, is that I just turned all the bonus feats and the powers that were changed to monk training or Qi Powers into either Monk Training OR Qi Power. This allows every single original monk to maintain their backwards compatibility as a selection is available at those levels. Less conversion between old monks and a new monk.
I realize some abilities need to have min levels assigned to them. My system allows people to make the monk they want to play, I hope...
Jason, you've had relatively little input in the last few days, are you lurking? or busy with other threads? or just taking a well-deserved break after getting Alpha out?
"I'm playing a swashbuckler/fighter/dervish that isn't the best at hitting or dealing damage, but with combat expertise, he puts up a huge AC, soaking up attack actions that would otherwise damage other party members. Convert that character to a monk, and you get superior saving throws along with evasion; now he's able to make spellcasters waste spells on him, too. This frees up others to position themselves, focus on other enemies, apply healing, or do whatever it is they're good at doing."
How, exactly, are you 'forcing' anything to 'waste' attacks or spells on you in this scenario? With the possible exception of seeming to be the easiest target to squish in the surprise round, I see "ignore in favor of targets that are an actual threat to my well-being" as being the modus operandi of most intelligent foes.Now, I have played a monk/occult slayer dwarf who proceeded to survive a 16th level sorceror unloading into him with spells for 6-7 rounds, but that was primarily due to three factors:
1- I had mettle from some other PrC that I don't remember
2- The sorcerer was very poorly designed, throwing mostly damage or save-lose spells. If he'd had any terrain manipulation or no-save, just suck spells, I would have been toast.
3- It was one-on-one, so I was the only target.
"Forcing" may not have been the best choice of words. Perhaps "obliging" would better satisfy you? I suppose I could have also said "waste actions" instead of "waste attacks or spells", as that would have better helped me make my point. Semantics aside, this thread is filled with descriptions of how monks make themselves useful in combat. They can harry spellcasters, set up flanks, deal with weaker enemies, and put themselves between dangerous foes and vulnerable allies, to name a few options. My personal favorite is to make enemies waste actions. Anytime your character has to do something you'd rather not have him so, you're wasting an action. You want your barbarian to swing his axe; if he's trying to break a hold person spell, he's wasting his action. Ditto for a spellcaster in a grapple.
Monks have tremendous potential to disrupt their foes' plans (didn't you know "monk" is short for "monkey wrench"?). Additionally, it's not easy to deter a monk from his intended course. They're difficult to escape from and even harder to kill. If that is not a serious threat, I don't know what is.
I´m throwing in the generic "Martial Artist" class my GM and me have worked out for her asia campaign. It´s still based to be on par with the 3.5 Monk, going into the direction of Wuxia Hong Kong movies, instead of the whole mysticism bit, which the Monk plays out in later levels. Attack bonuses, Flurry of Blows, etc. are as the Monks. The Martial Artist has a weak Will save, however.
Maybe one class feature or the other catches Jasons eye. ^^
Across the lands live masters of the martial arts. Some reside in tiny fishing villages and select pupils from the local populace, some open schools for their particular style in mayor cities. Others are bandit warlords who rule over a stretch of land with an iron fist while stories about their martial prowess spreads to the four winds. All of them strive for perfection of their particular fighting style.
Adventures: A martial artist adventures to accumulate experiences and test her fighting prowess against other martial artists, monsters or whatever challenge presents itself to her. She also might seek adventure to make a name for herself, prove herself to her master, accumulate riches or simply help the local populace. Contrary to monks, a martial artist does not seek inner enlightment, but instead concentrates on archieving the highest mastery possible at her chosen martial arts discipline. As a consequence, they are much more interested in contemporary events, as going to the local ruler to help him out is an opportunity to fight opponents, earn more experience and make a name for herself.
Characteristics: The key features to an martial artists are her ability to fight unarmored and with great agility. Many martial artists fight unarmed, but others have mastered a weapon to adapt it to their agile fighting style. Due to their superior training, martial artists are able to fall from great heights, jump supernaturally high and perform incredible feats of acrobatics.
They are highly adept at dodging attacks and can attack faster than other characters, though less accurately than a fighter. As an martial artist gains experience and power, she develops mastery over her fighting style.
As they seek to reach physical perfection, rather than inner enlightment, a martial artist’s abilities are seldomly supernatural.
Alignment: There are martial artists of every persuasion in the world. Thusly, no alignment restrictions are placed upon the class.
Background: Martial Artists can come from any background. Former fishermen, who had the luck to encounter a great master are among their number, as well as scions of nobles who were sent to an martial arts school by their parents.
Races: All civilized races have martial artists among their number. Among the savage humanoids, martial artists are more seldomly encountered, but the occasional martial arts master has arisen among them as well.
Other Classes: Martial artists can fill the shoes of a fighter in an oriental setting, though they often clash with samurai and shugenja, due to their pride about their martial style, which is at odds with the deference expected by those classes. In other settings, conflict seldomly arises between between other classes and a martial artist.
Role: While a martial artist can certainly hold her own in stand-up combat, her weaker base attack bonus and lower hit die make her more vulnerable than a fighter, samurai or other primary melee class. Her mastery of acrobatics, however, makes her ideal as a skirmisher. At higher levels, her Agile Combat and Martial Mastery class features let her keep pace with fighters and other primary melee classes.
Martial artists have the following game statistics.
Abilties: Dexterity helps the martial artist hit targets, avoid being hit and deal damage. Constitution is key to surviving on the front line. Wisdom helps her avoid attacks.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills:
The martial artist’s class skills ( and the key ability for each skill ) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate /Buff (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge: Local (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4+Int modifier) X 4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4+ Int modifier.
Table 1-1 : The Martial Artist
Level Special
1st Bonus feat, Flurry of blows,Unarmed strike, AC Bonus, Monk Level
Substitution
2nd Bonus feat, Evasion
3rd Still mind/Eternal flow/Unbreakable
4th Ki strike (magic), Slow fall 20 ft.
5th Fast movement, Ground fighting
6th Bonus feat, Slow fall 30 ft.
7th Uncanny dodge
8th Kip up, Slow fall 40 ft.
9th Improved evasion
10th Ki strike (any one DR), Slow fall 50 ft.
11th Greater flurry, Leap of heavens
12th Martial mastery
13th Damage reduction 2/-
14th Slow Fall 70 ft.
15th Martial mastery
16th Ki strike (adamantine), Slow fall 80 ft.
17th Steady stance
18th Martial mastery, Slow fall 90 ft.
19th Damage reduction 4/-
20th Martial mastery, Slow fall any distance
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the martial artist.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Martial artists are proficient with the same weapons like the monk. Martial artists are proficient with the following weapons as well: butterfly sword, scholars sword, club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, javelin, jitte, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, three-section staff and tonfa. Monks can use any of the following weapons with their unarmed base attack bonus: butterfly sword, scholars sword, club, jitte, kama, lajatang, nekode, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, three-section staff, and tonfa.
Flurry of Blows: When unarmored, a martial artist may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table 1-1: The Martial Artist. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the martial artist might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A martial artist must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a martial artist may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special martial artist weapons ( nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai and shuriken). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special martial artist weapons interchangeably as desired. In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a martial artist may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so. When a martial artist reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Her levels with in the monk class stack with purposes of determining her flurry of blows progression, although the character must have obtained the required level in one single class to obtain the Greater Flurry of Blows class ability.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a martial artist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A martial artist’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a martial artist may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a martial artist striking unarmed. Usually a martial artist’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling. A martial artist’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. A martial artist also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table 1-1: The Martial Artist.
Levels in the martial artist class and the monk class stack for purposes of determining the unarmed strike damage dice.
AC Bonus ( Ex): A martial artist has long studied the techniques of dodging blows, and she is always in motion and so can avoid getting hit. When unarmored and unencumbered, the martial artist adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a martial artist gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five level thereafter. This bonus to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the martial artist is flatfooted. She loses this bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a martial artist may select either a monk bonus feat, the Weapon Kata feat, or any fighter bonus feats (for which the martial artist must meet the prerequisites. Her martial artist level equal the fighter level required. She cannot aquire the feat Weapon Specialisation. At 2nd and 6th level, she may select one other of the above listed feats as a bonus feat.
Monk Level Substitution: A Martial Artist can substitute his level in the martial artist class for the equivalent level in the monk class at any new level he takes. This does not count as multi-classing, although the martial artist is required to be of lawful alignment to use this class feature.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a martial artist can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the martial artist is wearing no armor and a light load. A helpless martial artist does not gain the benefit of evasion. If a martial artist already has evasion from a different class, she automatically gains improved evasion (see below) instead.
Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level a martial artist’s unarmed attacks and weapon katas are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the characters martial artist level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks and weapon katas are also treated as overcoming one specific substance for the purpose of dealing damage creatures with damage reduction ( excluding DR / Epic or DR / - ). At 16th level, her unarmed attacks and weapon katas cound as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Still Mind/ Eternal Flow/ Unbreakable (Ex): At 3rd level the martial artist may choose between the monks Still Mind ability, the Eternal Flow ability ( +2 on Reflex saves against restricted movement) and the Unbreakable ability (+2 on Fotitude saves against stunning).
Slow Fall (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, a martial artist within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The martial artist’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her martial artist level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.
Fast Movement (Ex): At 5th level a martial artist’s land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor and not carrying a medium or heavy load.
Ground Fighting (Ex): At 5th level a martial artist takes no penalty to her Armor Class or on melee attack rolls when kneeling, sitting or prone.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 7th level, a martial artist retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses this Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a martial artist already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Kip Up (Ex): At 8th level a martial artist can stand up from a prone position as a free action that doesn´t provoke attack of opportunity. This ability works only she wears no armor and carries no more than a light load.
Leap of the Heavens (Ex): At 11th Level, the martial artist Jump checks always count as if she is performing a running jump, even if she is doing so standing.
Additionally, the martial artist from now on uses her Dexterity modifier for Jump checks instead of her Strength modifier.
Martial Mastery: Starting at 12th level, a martial artist begins understanding the deeper mysteries of her fighting style. As a result, she can permanently use one of the benefits shown below. At 15th level, 18th level and 20th level, she can select another permanent benefit from the list shown below.
1.) Acrobatic Charge (Ex): The martial artist can charge in situations where others cannot. She can charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or through allies blocking her path. This ability enables her to charge across a cluttered battlefield, leap down from a ledge, or swing across a chasm to get to her target. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks ( such as Jump, Tumble or Use Rope checks) to successfully move over the terrain.
2.) Elusive Target: The martial artist gains the benefits of the Elusive Target ( Complete Warrior., p. 110 ) feat, even if she does not qualify for the feat.
3.) Finesse Grapple: The martial artist can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier for the purpose of grappling.
4.) Finesse Trip: The martial artist can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier for the purpose of tripping an opponent.
5.) Finesse Disarm: The martial artist can use her favoured weapon without the -4 penalty for light weapons when trying to disarm an opponent.
6.) Weapon Stun (Ex): The martial artist can use the Stunning Fist feat with her favoured weapon.
7.) Combat Brute: The martial artist gains the benefits of the Combat Brute ( Complete Warrior., p. 110 ) feat, even if she does not qualify for the feat.
8.) Unarmed strike improvement: Your unarmed critical modifier for your unarmed attack improves to x3.
9.) Giant bane: The martial artist gains the benefits of the Giant Bane ( Complete Warrior., p. 111 ) feat, even if she does not qualify for the feat.
10.) Raptor school: The martial artist gains the benefits of the Raptor School ( Complete Warrior., p. 111 ) feat, even if she does not qualify for the feat.
11.) Sun school: The martial artist gains the benefits of the Sun School ( Complete Warrior., p. 112 ) feat, even if she does not qualify for the feat.
Damage Reduction (Ex): Beginning at 13th level, the martial artist masters how to be devilishly difficult to hit, so that attacks against him will never hit her fully. The martial artist gets damage reduction 2/-, which improves to 4/- at 19th level.
Steady Stance (Ex): A 17th level martial artist remains stable on her feet when others have difficulty standing. She is not considered flat-footed while balancing or climbing, and she adds half her class level as a bonus on Balance or Climb checks to remain balancing or climbing when she takes damage.
New Feat: Weapon Kata: A martial artist chooses a special martial artist weapon with which she is proficient to deal her unarmed damage instead of the weapons. The weapon is now considered to be a special martial artist weapon for purposes of the Flurry of Blows and Ki Strike ability. Prerequisite: Martial Artist level 1st
Just thought I'd throw in my two cents here:
I do rather like the ideas being put forth for the monk. I dislike the "fix" that allows a monk to use their unarmed strike damage with monk weapons. NOT because I want them to not be able to use them at higher damage; I do. I'm all for monk unarmed strike damage to take precedence over weapon damage. But my main complaint for the fix is that, as it stands, it penalizes players who play monks because they don't WANT to rely on weapons. One of the key draws for the class, in my experience, is that you don't need a weapon to be dealing damage. Requiring them to buy magical monk weapons to do their damage goes against the spirit of the class. Making it an [u]option[/u] I'm fine with, but there needs to be a way for a monk to get enhancement bonuses to attacks and damage, as well as other weapon enchantments, without using manufactured weapons. I'm fine with an amulet, or slotless hand wraps, or even just allowing them to enchant their hands permanently. Makes no real difference to me (I actually like the latter option the best). But the choice of weapon or unarmed should be stylistic, not based on which is mechanically superior.
I also love the idea of monks as debilitators/debuffers. Giving them boosts to combat maneuvers, allowing them to afflict their enemies with status anomalies... that's all great stuff that I'd have a ball playing a monk for. The monk supports the party by weakening the enemy, allowing him to fit the "rogue" role in a different manner - rather than tons of d6s, he instead makes it easier for his party to dispatch their foes. Very flavorful and in keeping with existing abilities of the class. I look forward to seeing how this discussion helps shape the monk class into a strong, competitive choice.
Oh, and I also support the "ditch monk weapons, replace with simple weapons" approach. I hadn't thought of it before, but I definitely agree.
Oh, and I also support the "ditch monk weapons, replace with simple weapons" approach. I hadn't thought of it before, but I definitely agree.
So do I, but it doesn't stop people from regularly suggesting the invention of a whole slew of complicated new weapons that are near identical to them anyways. :P
Butterfly Swords? Come on, they're just Short-Swords with neat handles!
Ok I am probably going to get fried for this but here are my subjections to fix the monk after doing a Play test on the monk at 20
The Group was of the following all had +5 weapons sans the monk
lv 20 monk total to hit + 18 ( str 17)
Lv 20 wizard total to hit + 16 (STR 12)
Lv 20 cleric total to hit +23 (STR 17)
Lv 20 Fighter total to hit +32 (STR 22)
VS Karzoug the Claimer form the end of Pathfinder AP 1
The fighter needed a 4 to hit him
The monk needed a 17 to hit him
The cleric needed a 13 to hit him
Btw he mopped the floor with them in 5 rounds.
Now my subjection is to change for the Monk only change the to Ac to hit to be touch Ac for their unarmed attacks only.
This would change the fight to the monk needing only a 4 to hit the target
Make this fight much more manageable
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Ok I am probably going to get fried for this but here are my subjections to fix the monk after doing a Play test on the monk at 20
The Group was of the following all had +5 weapons sans the monk
lv 20 monk total to hit + 18 ( str 17)
Lv 20 wizard total to hit + 16 (STR 12)
Lv 20 cleric total to hit +23 (STR 17)
Lv 20 Fighter total to hit +32 (STR 22)VS Karzoug the Claimer form the end of Pathfinder AP 1
The fighter needed a 4 to hit him
The monk needed a 17 to hit him
The cleric needed a 13 to hit himBtw he mopped the floor with them in 5 rounds.
Now my subjection is to change for the Monk only change the to Ac to hit to be touch Ac for their unarmed attacks only.
This would change the fight to the monk needing only a 4 to hit the target
Make this fight much more manageable
The monk COULD have had a +5 weapon also...and still used flurry of blows with it, he just would have lost his monk damage by current rules...
The monk COULD have had a +5 weapon also...and still used flurry of blows with it, he just would have lost his monk damage by current rules...
Yeah, and one of the proposed fixes in this thread by Jason has been to let the monk use his unarmed damage instead of the weapon's damage... but I know when *I* play monks, I want to be using my fists proper, rather than a stick. So some sort of fix for actual unarmed strikes as well as weapons is in order.
During our playtest (AP1) I noticed something "funny" about low-level monks.
Some background. I'm playing human monk who put +2 to DEX giving him better DEX than STR. I took Longbow as his free human martial weapon, and Weapon focus (unarmed strike) as a first level feat.
This all played well before we got more money. I bought masterwork composite longbow. Suddenly the monk is doing hitting more often (DEX bonus) and doing more damage (d8 vs d6) with his longbow. He's a better archer (no related feats) than an unarmed fighter (multiple related feats and class abilities).
Going to third level this will change a bit. Weapon finesse will make his unarmed strikes hit as often as arrows. They make less damage but have the option to flurry, stun, etc. On fourth level the unarmed damage output finally gains the longbow.
I find this a bit silly from the game point of view. It's great for role playing, though :)
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I've been pondering the monk quite a bit since Alpha 3's release. The 3.5 monk has always seemed weak, and while I like the improvements Jason's made, I still wasn't sure if they were enough. So I got bored this afternoon and ran some numbers, somewhat based off Drashal's example above but with a more even playing field.
For those who want to skip the math: The monk keeps up fairly well with the fighter in a straight beat-down on Karzoug. I didn't get around to analyzing what the monk could do with various combat maneuvers (hint: Karzoug's CMB=15. A monk20 is looking at 25+) or stunning fist/scorpion's fist, etc., which I think is a definite advantage for the well-played monk and allows for considerable debuffing/battlefield control. I'll run similar numbers for a rogue later if I have time.
Here's what I used, trying to keep these as similar as possible and including common gear, feats and buffs:
Human or Half-orc Fighter 20, using greatsword 2-handed for max damage potential. At that level he probably has Str 22 (15 start +2 race +5 levels) and a +6 stat booster for total Str 28 (+9 hit/dmg). He's carrying a +5 greatsword, and benefits from Weapon Training+4 (heavy blades) and Weapon Mastery (greatsword). He also has the following feats (plus a lot of others ...): Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike.
That gives him an attack bonus of +40/+35/+30/+25 (+20 BAB, +9 Str, +4 W.Training, +1 W.Focus, +1 G.W.Focus, +5 enhancement).
Average damage per hit is 31 (7(avg. of 2d6) +13(1.5xStr)+4(W.Training)+2(W.Spec.) +5 (enhancement)). He crits on 17-20 (all threats confirmed thanks to Weapon Mastery) for x3 damage.
Against Karzoug's AC of 36, he hits an average of 3.15 times per round (hitting on 2+/2+/6+/11+ equals chances of .95/.95/.75/.5), for 97.65 points of damage. Adding in his chance to crit (.2/.2/.2/.2) for triple damage (an additional 62 on top of a normal hit) brings his total average damage per round to 147.25.
Now, I also ran the numbers for attacking with Power Attack (for 9), Improved Vital Strike (losing his two lowest attacks for an average of 14 additional damage on the other hits) and for PA and IVS together. Average damage per round was worse in each case, so the Fighter's better just going straight attacks.
Now the monk:
Human or Half-orc Monk 20. The most important stats for a monk are Wis and Str (or Dex if finessing, but we'll keep it simple). So assume he put a 14 in Str, +2 race and +2 for levels, and has a +6 stat booster for total Str 24 (+7 hit/dmg). He's using his fists, but like any Monk with an Int of 8+, he's using oil of greater magic weapon or has talked the party wizard/sorcerer into casting it for him, so he also has a +5 enhancement bonus to hit/damage.
Note: a monk's unarmed strike is treated as a manufactured weapon (singular) so GMW should provided an enhancement bonus for all his attacks. The class description notes a monk has no off-hand attacks -- essentially, his entire body is one weapon. It might be worth making this clearer in the class description, as some items (amulet of might fists, frex) seem to assume otherwise.
Additionally, the monk has the following feats: Weapon Focus (unarmed), Improved Critical (unarmed), and Vital Strike (doesn't have the BAB to get the Improved version).
He has an attack bonus of +28/+28/+28/+23/+18 (+15 BAB, +7 Str, +1 W.Focus, +5 enhancement and improved flurry).
Average damage per hit is 23 (11(avg. of 2d10) +7 Str +5 enhancement). He crits on 19-20 for x2 damage.
Against Karzoug's AC of 36, he hits an average of 2.5 times per round. His crits must be confirmed, but in all, his average damage per round with normal attacks is 63.25.
Sucks, right? But using Vital Strike (tossing his lowest attack for an additional 2d10 damage on each hit) bumps his average damage up to 87.89.
That's still not great compared to the fighter's 147, but suppose our fighter and monk are each benefitting from an enlarge person spell or potion. That benefits the monk (whose unarmed strike jumps to 4d8 -- 8d8 with Vital Strike) more than the fighter, whose greatsword is now doing 3d6. The enlarged monk's average damage per round jumps to 126.665, while the fighter's goes to 173.375.
With the added options (combat maneuvers, skills, debilitating feats) open to a monk, I think those numbers actually are pretty acceptable -- and realize that the monk would probably out-damage a sword-and-board fighter by a fair margin. The only thing I'd really like to see a revision of the cost of the amulet of mighty fists (there's no reason for the monk to pay 3 times the cost for his enhancement bonus) or the addition of some hand wraps, etc. that can be enchanted. I suppose you could also add a feat that allowed the monk to enchant his body as a weapon, which would be cool, but the important thing is that the monk not be charged more than a single-weapon warrior-type -- he's really not getting any extra benefit, and the high cost/lack of availability of enhancement bonuses for monks seems to me to be the last real problem that needs attention.
Also, I'm ambivalent toward the suggestion about allowing monk's to use their unarmed damage when using monk weapons. I don't think it's unbalancing, but there needs to be some benefit to sticking with unarmed strikes if the monk flavor is to be preserved. Maybe let them have the damage of a monk one size smaller or 4 levels lower (essentially, one step) when using a weapon?
EDIT: I should also add, Vital Strike is a pretty bad-azz feat for monk's (as shown above) and could be a good one to add to their bonus feat list for levels 10+.
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For a little fun I ran the numbers on a Monk 15/Fighter 5 (same stats as the Monk 20 above) to see what would happen if a monk nabbed Improved Vital Strike. With a set of monk robes, Weapon Training +1(close) and Weapon Specialization from the fighter levels, the monk using IVS equals the fighter's damage output (145 vs. 147 average damage per round).
Throw in enlarge person and the monk lays down a whopping 192.5 damage per round.