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The setup of the Escape from Korvosa includes a description of an ill-planned and ill-fated attempt by Commandant Endrin to assassinate Queen Ileosa. Unfortunately, the whole scenario is barely believable, unjustifiable with the Sable Company morality, and seems impossible to make work under d20 rules. This story, even if only told to PCs, only serves to make them question how such utter nonsense could occur - and what it might really mean.
If someone could explain to me how to have this whole encounter make sense both from an in-game standpoint, and how it is supposed to work using the d20 rules, I'd appreciate it. Summarizing:
1 - It makes no sense that Commandant Endrin, leader of a supposedly LG military organization, suddenly decides to pull a crossbow and take one shot at the Queen. That's neither Lawful, nor Good, nor smart, nor wise, nor ... Any PC will look at this and have to wonder what's really the story.
2 - Under d20 rules, how does this one shot hit the Queen in the temple, and how does she then pull it out and kill the certainly high-level Commandant with one strike?
It's both Lawful and Good to attempt to remove a corrupt monarch who is destroying the city you are sworn to protect. He'd been considering doing it for some time.
Also, the removal of the bolt and her striking down of the commander and both supposed to suggest that the queen has become much more powerful than she has any right to be.
If you want a rules-heavy version: The commandant shoots the queen, and crits (I'd consider being shot in the temple a crit). She has enough HPs to survive the hit. She pulls the bolt back out (just flavor). She strikes and kills the commandant (possibly a crit in return, but it demonstrates that she can exert a lot of damage in one strike.)
Also, consider the idea that the abstract rules like BaB and HPs are best for the gamey parts of the game. When only NPCs are involved, being stabbed in heart should still kill a human, regardless of how many HPs they have.
Sorry, but none of those answers make for a game that can stand up to any kind of player scrutiny. While you can certainly explain it away that way, and happily play on, this kind of inconsistency serves to make players later ignore important clues about actions and events that they really should be questioning and pursuing.
They're supposed to question and pursue this.
Maybe I need to explain better, in order to get some reasoned responses:
1 - For an assassination attempt to be Lawful, it needs to at least be planned. If it was planned, I'd like to know what the plan was. If there was something special about the crossbow bolt that should guarantee a kill against a human, I'd like to know it.
2 - For an assassination attempt to be Good, it has to be against a proven Evil, not just something unpleasant. If the Commandant knows something about the Queen for sure, rather than just being upset about "shameful reign" and Korvosa not being "free" (his quote when he attacks), I'd like to know that.
3 - For a crossbow shot meant as an assassination to make any sense, it cannot depend on getting a critical hit. Not to mention that even with a critical hit, who are you kidding - no NPC of more than a couple levels would be threatened by it. There needs to be some more chance of expected success to this assassination attempt, especially if Field Marshal Croft then thinks it should have succeeded.
4 - For the Queen to pick up, pin, and kill the Commandant without him being able to do anything about it, there has to be more than just strength. I'd like to know how she does it. Admittedly, this point is the least of my concerns - perhaps she has the grapple capability to do so. But that will need to be evident when her stats eventually come out.
To be clear - I'm not against the scene, I just think it needs a lot of work by the GM to avoid unnecessary player frustration. I'm hoping for some solid ideas from this forum.
1 - It makes no sense that Commandant Endrin, leader of a supposedly LG military organization, suddenly decides to pull a crossbow and take one shot at the Queen. That's neither Lawful, nor Good, nor smart, nor wise, nor ... Any PC will look at this and have to wonder what's really the story.2 - Under d20 rules, how does this one shot hit the Queen in the temple, and how does she then pull it out and kill the certainly high-level Commandant with one strike?
You may want to put in a spoiler alert for this thread - just my thinking. I'm going to talk about some of it here...be warned.
1) I'm agreeing with Ross on this one. It's in character for Endrin's alignment to clearly go against a monarch who it appears has violated several laws. I think what is also implied is that, unlike the PCs, the commanders are much more "enlightened" of Queen's activities - including some of the more questionable ones.
A more direct guideline, you can always refer to the fact that Sable Company is not "commanded" by the Queen. Their commands and duties are tied to the Seneschal of Korvosa; that's something tied to the city's charter - something a lawful good character can reference for precedent to go against the Queen.
This is further reinforced with her proclamations in light of the Seneschal's disapperance and the elevation of a new one by her. It's something else that she's not allowed to do by law. Until the old Seneschal is found; there's no reason Endrin can't defy her.
If she's acting with such Draconian measures as quarantining whole parts of the city; enforcing a martial law without precedent; and intending to replace a corps of the Korvosan army with her own personal guard - then it could be argued Endrin's move, while brash, may be necessary in his eyes. She's clearly acting in unlawful manner.
Finally, as for planning, he may have not had a chance to approach her until this meeting. If she's been has removed as has been implied - it may be that this was his one chance to get his shot - we don't know how long he's been planning this. Maybe since the old king died.
As DM, if you need further details, you could always say that the Sensecahl may have hinted or told Endrin (as his direct commander) that he suspected that the Queen has been changed and why. Endrin may have been acting knowledge the PCs will only learn later.
2) As for the second one - I would claim DM fiat. The whole incident is designed to explain to the PC's that this woman is far more powerful than before - something has changed. Clearly, no one realized that she wasn't just a petty schemer - but something much more sinister and crafty.
But if you want to get technical, if you have read the previews for COTCT - then you know that the Queen is essentially become a vessel for a Blue Dragon empowered by a god - Zon Kuthon I believe. So, I think you could argue that one crossbow bolt isn't going to kill her; and she probably is powerful enough to have criticalled an unprepared NPC. But that's just a guess on my part.
***EDIT: My apologies for misspellings. I also changed a few words to make my explantion more accurate to my intent, I hope.***
2 - For an assassination attempt to be Good, it has to be against a proven Evil, not just something unpleasant. If the Commandant knows something about the Queen for sure, rather than just being upset about "shameful reign" and Korvosa not being "free" (his quote when he attacks), I'd like to know that.
The Queen has been allowing a lot of people to die for no reason. Putting a stop to that would be Good. (If being Evil doesn't require fighting a proven good, then why does Good have to require a proven evil?) He's trying to make the world a better place for everyone, at great risk to himself (For instance, he can be fairly sure Sabina would kill him afterward, even if he were successful.) That's good.
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A more direct guideline, you can always refer to the fact that Sable Company is not "commanded" by the Queen. Their commands and duties are tied to the Seneschal of Korvosa; that's something tied to the city's charter - something a lawful good character can reference for precedent to go against the Queen.This is further reinforced with her proclamations in light of the Seneschal's disapperance and the elevation of a new one by her. It's something else that she's not allowed to do by law. Until the old Seneschal is found; there's no reason Endrin can't defy her.
But if you want to get technical, if you have read the previews for COTCT - then you know that the Queen is essentially become a vessel for a Blue Dragon empowered by a god - Zon Kuthon I believe. So, I think you could argue that one crossbow bolt isn't going to kill her; and she probably is powerful enough to have criticalled an unprepared NPC. But that's just a guess on my part.
By the way, possible suggestions to make this seem chilling or more interesting is how you convey it to the PC's. Since, in theory, the PC's will probably hear from Commander Kroft first:
*Make the Commander appear more haggard than is described. You could hint that she looks even worse than when they've seen before; that's she's got a bottle of liquor at hand and is drinking liberally from it. She's clearly spooked and concerned; and she's trying to steady her nerves.
*Describing the incident should be a matter of explaining that neither she nor Endrin ever expected the Queen more than a frivolous tyrant. That they didn't know what a monster (literally) she was until that moment.
*That she's fearful that the Grey Maidens will come marching in; that they are essentially the law now and they answer only to the Queen.
*For that matter, the Queen may consider Kroft a good candidate for inclusion into the Grey Maidens (and all the grisly details that entails). The PCs may have to help her escape; and that should hammer home the point that clearly those who are in charge of Korvosa are no longer welcome.
Just some ideas...I realize it doesn't really apply to the original thread question.
Maybe I need to explain better, in order to get some reasoned responses:
1 - For an assassination attempt to be Lawful, it needs to at least be planned. If it was planned, I'd like to know what the plan was. If there was something special about the crossbow bolt that should guarantee a kill against a human, I'd like to know it.
2 - For an assassination attempt to be Good, it has to be against a proven Evil, not just something unpleasant. If the Commandant knows something about the Queen for sure, rather than just being upset about "shameful reign" and Korvosa not being "free" (his quote when he attacks), I'd like to know that.
3 - For a crossbow shot meant as an assassination to make any sense, it cannot depend on getting a critical hit. Not to mention that even with a critical hit, who are you kidding - no NPC of more than a couple levels would be threatened by it. There needs to be some more chance of expected success to this assassination attempt, especially if Field Marshal Croft then thinks it should have succeeded.
4 - For the Queen to pick up, pin, and kill the Commandant without him being able to do anything about it, there has to be more than just strength. I'd like to know how she does it. Admittedly, this point is the least of my concerns - perhaps she has the grapple capability to do so. But that will need to be evident when her stats eventually come out.
To be clear - I'm not against the scene, I just think it needs a lot of work by the GM to avoid unnecessary player frustration. I'm hoping for some solid ideas from this forum.
1 - Everything a Lawful person does is not planned. That being said, an assassination attempt does seem a bit over the top without more information. What seems clear to me is that the point of this incident is to explain that the good guys know the Queen is evil in case there is any doubt, and to warn the players that not even the leader of the Sable Company was capable of bringing her down in a direct confrontation, so they should not attempt it either.
2 - The Queen has proven herself evil to anyone that cares to know the truth. The PCs linking the good Dr. Davaulus to the spreading of the plague and the documents involved as well as the suspicious nature of the Urgathoan link and the link to the sunken ship... Combine this with the usurpation of the Seneschal process, the relative dissolution of the Korvosan Guard in favor of the Grey Maidens, the announcement that the Sable Company is to be disbanded... It is enough to drive a would-be hero to action I should think. Even if you don't feel it is a good act, well, just because someone is labelled Lawful/Good doesn't mean everything they do is good. That's why you have rules for Fallen Paladins. He just happened to be Desperate/Desperate for this event.
3 - The crossbow bolt should be enough to kill a normal, petty little girl playing at monarch, right? Clearly he's not aware she's more than she seems, and he feels his marksmanship and skill will be enough to eliminate her before she can bring more evil plans to fruition. The "Real People in Korvosa" don't think in terms of levels and hit points, and frankly neither should you or your players.
4 - Again, I think you are missing the point. The point isn't to break down the round-by-round combat, including HPs, damage, to-hit results, grapple checks, etc... The point is that she easily dispatched what the players will assume was a fairly tough NPC, the leader of the Sable Company. Obviously someone that should outclass her in combat ability since she's just supposed to be a spoiled girl Queen.
All of this seems incredibly easy to me to explain to the players second hand. They won't be there to witness it directly, so whoever is telling them what happens can simply stress the points as outlined in the book.
If you need to add additional rounds of combat and have everything fit into a round-by-round combat, then you're probably going to have to wait for a Queen Ileosa stat block, and then roll it back in the timeline to what she'd have actually been like at this combat, not to mention having information about the Commandant's stats as well...
Unless there's more information ahead I think that you could eliminate the assassination attempt altogether so long as you dissuade the characters from directly confronting the Queen in another way, and eliminate the Sable Guard Commandant.
To me that's the whole point of this... Give the characters the impression that the Queen is, personally, vastly more powerful than she otherwise seems, supernaturally powerful. After all she was just a beautiful girl who married a much older King, now she's dispatching the head of the Sable Company without batting a pretty eyelash, AND after taking a shot to the temple without noticably being shaken?
Perhaps you could provide an example of what issue you think this might cause for your players?
From reading your issues it sounds like you wanted the book to read in some fashion:
The Commandant discovered the true nature of the Queen, and also knew that she was about to have him arrested and disband the Sable Company, so he had not choice but to try to stop her on the spur of the moment through force of arms.
He was unaware that she was anything more than the girl she seemed to be, and he generated a critical hit when he fired his bow doing 92 points of damage, however this did not even phase the Queen (because she has 93 HPs), who plucked the crossbow bolt from the vague part of her HPs that it hit, and then generated a 32 for her Grapple Check roll which exceeded the Commandant's by 10, so it was a success and she could perform her special Grapple attack. She then did 16 points of damage, and due to the Commandant having come to this ceremony after a pitched battle with a horde of imps it felled him in a single blow to some vague location on his person where he keeps his HPs.
Of course no one at the ceremony knew how many HPs the Commandant had, so they were all very surprised that a single hit took down a Level 10 Fighter (his level is clearly displayed on the badge that floats above every NPCs head), as this combat between two 10+ level NPCs with their 100s of HPs should have taken at least 18-24 seconds instead of 6.
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If the mechanical aspect of this scene is so important to you, just hint at the PCs that the commander of the Sable Company gets a special gift from his predecessor when receiving his bagde of office: a greater slaying bolt (human) that was first gifted from Waydon Endrin (founder of the Sable Company) to the commander that came after him together with the words: "If evil will ever claim the throne you'll know what to do."
A low- to mid-level aristocrat or bard should not be able to make the 23 Fort save, so your PCs will hopefully come to the right conclussions.
I agree with Ross, Alex, et al. Something else to keep in mind which I don't think was mentioned yet are the circumstances just before Endrin takes his shot. The Queen has just announced, abruptly, that the Sable Company is being dissolved and demands that Endrin publicly surrender his badge of office.
Building on what others have already said, here's my take on Endrin's move. He has been learning more and more of the bad things the Queen has been up to, and had more contact with her or her Gray Maidens due to his office. He either knows or has heavy suspicions related to the Queen's attempt on the Seneschal's life, and her involvement in the plague. These aren't things he could prove, necessarily, but even if he could, he's caught in a political web of intrigue here, and if he tried to expose her and seek justice from the law he would likely be overruled somehow and then quietly disposed of, like the Seneschal almost was.
So Endrin's situation is pretty desperate already, as the Maidens assert their power and the Sable Company itself is decimated by the plague and the riots. He's been trying to do hold things together, but he can see that the Gray Maidens and the Queen are not. Still, his position affords him some power over his marines, at least, so he has been holding on, looking for some way to make things right.
But suddenly, the Queen announces she's dissolving the Sable Company, placing her cronies in command of everything, and demands that he surrender his badge of office, his public claim to authority, right then and there. It's a checkmate move, and Endrin knows at that moment that not only will he be unable to pull off some well-planned and just coup down the line with his marines, but he's also probably going to be quietly assassinated shortly after he leaves the podium. In my mind, this is what the queen would have planned regardless of his assassination attempt - by now she knows who her friends are, and everyone else is an enemy.
So he basically knows he's done for. He's probably never going to get within striking distance of the queen again, if he isn't killed by assassins in his sleep that night. So he takes that shot out of sheer desperation, knowing that even if he managed to kill the queen, Sabina is going to wreck him shortly thereafter. It's an act that any Lawful Good NPC might take.
As for how this happens under d20 rules, I think others have put in good explanations. Sounds like a critical hit to me. As for why Endrin would ever try such a thing when a single crossbow hit is hardly ever enough to kill someone, remember that the vast majority of NPCs, even monarchs, really don't need class levels, and many would be in no position to acquire them over time. Ileosa is just a spoiled, wicked little brat to Endrin's eyes. Besides, Endrin may have hoped to keep fighting if his crossbow bolt didn't bring her down - he (and everyone else) was just shocked to see how his devastating shot failed to stop her.
If the mechanical aspect of this scene is so important to you, just hint at the PCs that the commander of the Sable Company gets a special gift from his predecessor when receiving his bagde of office: a greater slaying bolt (human) that was first gifted from Waydon Endrin (founder of the Sable Company) to the commander that came after him together with the words: "If evil will ever claim the throne you'll know what to do."
I like that. A lot.
Creative Director
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You'll have to wait until Pathfinder #12 to see the stats for the Crown of Fangs to find out how Ileosa can survive a head shot like that (hint: It involves regeneration).
More Spoilery stuff...
The point of the scene is to show that Ileosa is bad-ass and that she can't just be killed by normal damage. It's to set up the next two adventures in the campaign, which basically has the PCs leaving Korvosa to find the magic sword that CAN defeat her... or more to the point, that can defeat her evil artifact. If your players have already bought in to the fact that they shouldn't be focusing on attempting to kill Ileosa themselves, you can maybe even downplay the attempted assassination or eliminate it entirely.
As for character motivations... I agree that we sort of fell down there. But it's not for lack of work; it's for lack of room. In the end, the #1 thing that the adventure had to serve was to focus on events and things that actually involved the PCs. Throwing them directly up against Ileosa could have made a cool set of encounters... but we want to save that set of encounters for the climax of the campaign in AP 12. By keeping this scene OUT of the rules, we can have things like a more narrative-driven scene that doesn't have to "follow the rules" to work. We did something similar at the end of "Edge of Anarchy," where instead of filling pages with stat blocks we had a sort of interactive read-aloud section that the PCs could influence.
But back to motivations. Yes, Endrin is lawful good, but he's also been a LOT closer to things going on in Castle Korvosa. He's basically been spending the first two adventures torn between the LAW part (obey the queen) and the GOOD part (getting rid of an evil ruler). Also... after the events of the previous two adventures, he's seen a LOT of his marines get quite hurt or even killed after they've been thrown into the meat-grinder of riots and plagues. AND: Just before he makes the sort-of spur-of-the-moment decision to try to kill the queen, she reveals that she's basically FIRING the Sable Company, and that drives Endrin over the line. Also; for students of Korvosa's history itself, the Endrins DO sort of have a family history of rash decisions and public deaths...
So, in closing, if the assassination scene doesn't do it for you, you can certainly omit it from your game. Alternately, you can change the assassin's identity to another character... but if you do, keep in mind that just means you'll need to engineer another way to rob the Sable Company of leadership, since the metaplot of the campaign needs them to go away, if only temporarily.
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I think the assassination is pretty cool, and I see no problem with the mechanics
Endrin is a mid-level ranger, yes? In the Pathfinder RPG, he would have taken Deadly Aim, and Favored Enemy (human), and have a, say, +2 crossbow, yes? going for a surprise crit, that should be enough to kill a normal Aristocrat, in his mind. However, he forgot to factor in that Ileosa has way more hit points than that. He gets screwed over by a game mechanic; that no matter where you hit someone, they dont die unless they hit -10. a high-level character can survive the Tall Knife and walk through lava, damn it.
Besides, one of my PCs is a sable company marine, a half-elf bastard son of house endrin, so Marcus would be his uncle. I'm going to definitely toss in a few conversations with him, so that when endrin dies, he isnt just a name in the player's guide.
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a high-level character can survive the Tall Knife and walk through lava, damn it.
Uhuh, you fall in lava, you die, no save :P
I really like this scene (I may actually have my PCs present, I'll decide closer to the time when I have a better feel for their personalities, so I know whether any of them are likely to do something stupid). It's a cool cinematic scene and I hate it when the rules get in the way of those - by the rules you'd be talking about a fight between two characters of 10th level and higher, taking several rounds, which just doesn't have the impact and feels weird since no one intervenes. Fortunately I know all my players feel the same way, story comes first, rules are just a framework for it.
On the other hand, I'll probably use Demidian's greater slaying bolt idea, because that's awesome, and should really enforce the "Oh f*##" moment.
There's a question that has been burning in the back of my mind since first reading the 'Assassination attempt' scenario. Why make it hearsay? After all, the scene is supposed to convey to the players the idea that the queen = Big, Bad, and Tough (yep, those come with a capital letter). Why not make them experience the scene first hand? My feeling is that the impact of this encounter is lessened by having someone 'only' describe it.
I imagine that after Endrin dies, the crowd that has gathered to watch the adress will erupt into chaos, thus spoiling any possibility for the PCs to 'directly intervene', should they get any foolish ideas. Once the chaos dies down, the queen will be long gone.
Anyone try this? Any concerns I'm overlooking?
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I imagine that after Endrin dies, the crowd that has gathered to watch the adress will erupt into chaos, thus spoiling any possibility for the PCs to 'directly intervene', should they get any foolish ideas. Once the chaos dies down, the queen will be long gone.
Anyone try this? Any concerns I'm overlooking?
as long as you ensure that your PCs are too far away for the wizard to cast something on her as she goes in for the kill.... otherwise tou might have a TPK on your hands
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If the mechanical aspect of this scene is so important to you, just hint at the PCs that the commander of the Sable Company gets a special gift from his predecessor when receiving his bagde of office: a greater slaying bolt (human) that was first gifted from Waydon Endrin (founder of the Sable Company) to the commander that came after him together with the words: "If evil will ever claim the throne you'll know what to do."
A low- to mid-level aristocrat or bard should not be able to make the 23 Fort save, so your PCs will hopefully come to the right conclussions.
Is the queen even human at this point?
Because if she's mutating into some fiendish entity, then the Commander could have hedged his bets, with a human-bane crossbow, bolt of human-slaying, poison of anti-human, or anything else you can think of to stack the deck in his favour, all for nought.
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There's a question that has been burning in the back of my mind since first reading the 'Assassination attempt' scenario. Why make it hearsay? After all, the scene is supposed to convey to the players the idea that the queen = Big, Bad, and Tough (yep, those come with a capital letter). Why not make them experience the scene first hand? My feeling is that the impact of this encounter is lessened by having someone 'only' describe it.
I imagine that after Endrin dies, the crowd that has gathered to watch the adress will erupt into chaos, thus spoiling any possibility for the PCs to 'directly intervene', should they get any foolish ideas. Once the chaos dies down, the queen will be long gone.
Anyone try this? Any concerns I'm overlooking?
I think the reason for this being hearsay is primarily that the party will probably be pretty sure that the queen is evil by this point, so might attempt something foolish the second she turns up, thus they become the lesson instead of Endrin :). I agree that it will have far more impact if they see it first hand, which is why I'm going to set it up that way, so long as I have a fairly sensible party who are aware that even if they are mighty level 7s, attacking heads of state in public is only going to get them locked up/killed.
Because if she's mutating into some fiendish entity, then the Commander could have hedged his bets, with a human-bane crossbow, bolt of human-slaying, poison of anti-human, or anything else you can think of to stack the deck in his favour, all for nought.
If it's only a template, she'd still have the human subtype, so I suppose it would depend on the exact nature of the transformation.
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The problem I have with scenes like this as a GM is that I find the PCs *don't* draw the expected conclusion. If the event looks impossible or unreasonable under the game rules, they will do one of two things:
(1) Figure that what really happened was something quite different, and spend a lot of time and energy chasing the red herring. In this case, for example, they would be likely to suspect that the event didn't happen at all, or that the commander was mind-controlled or a doppleganger.
(2) Figure that this was GM fiat and should be totally disregarded as evidence of anything mechanical.
The second one is particularly unfortunate if the point of the scene is to give a clue about Ileosa's abilities.
We gave up on running CotCT as written because there just seemed to be too many bits that were really hard to make sense of. It just didn't seem possible to fix them all without abandoning the main plot. Any given one can be rationalized, but things get very fragile if you have to do that constantly.
Mary
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Lots of good ideas and feedback - thanks!
I can work with the ideas of Endrin's desparate position and like the idea of a magical crossbow bolt that he is reasonably certain should take out a human tyrant. I do not like any suggestion that Endrin is ignorant, stupid, or forgetful about the potential toughness of a person. Like it or not, if you're playing d20, the option of an instant kill with a single weapon strike is simply not to be expected when you're dealing with any person of note, no matter how well placed the strike. I strongly believe this has to be reflected in the attitude, actions, and plans of the NPCs in the world, otherwise you'll always have disjointed stories, which destroys the suspension of disbelief that makes for a good story.
Norgerber's post actually illustrates my issue very well. His description of the combat is farcical - and that is exactly what the players will think when they hear the story told as it is written in the module, because players will dissect what the GM is telling them to glean important information.
Mary hit the nail on the head with her post. It should be clear that my issue is not with the coolness of the story, or the need for detailed combat explanations in the module. I just want actions that won't mislead the players due to inconsistency with the rules.
So, I think my version of the story will run along the lines of:
- Endrin has developed huge misgivings about the Queen, and has talked to Kroft and other confidants about it at some length, including his thoughts that she needs to be removed
- Endrin takes a very powerful crossbow bolt (note Bane is not really enough with 2d6 damage - it should probably be a unique, deadly artifact level magic item) from the Sable Company Vault of magic weapons (this can come out later, or be surmised by Kroft)
- Endrin decides to take action out of desparation, and because he has the weapon he thinks will do the job
- Endrin must be fairly certain that the assassination will not simply be reversed by a Raise Dead, hence he must also have at least talked to the senior Clerics of Abadar and Sarenrae about their opinions of the Queen, in order to have hope that her assassination will spark a general uprising against the current monarchy which will be supported by many other powers in Korvosa (this may come as info to the players, depending on their contacts)
- Endrin's attack fails, to his and everyone else's great surprise, as the Queen recovers from a crossbow bolt to the head within seconds
- Ileosa pins him to the wall, and over several agonizing rounds strangles and stabs him to death, while everyone else watches in horror at the apparent ease and glee with which she does it
Not to step on your toes here, Harald, but I think you may be over-rationalizing a bit. Even if D20 uses hit-points as an abstract, it is (in my eyes) an absolute non sequitur that NPCs would take this fact into consideration when determining their actions. Endrin wants to put a bolt in the Queen's head, and so he does. Maybe - rules-wise - he was hoping for a coup de grace or whatever, but this is the point where the rules have to step back and take a break.
To use another example: If a PC had a crossbow pointed at a NPC's head who is standing inches away and who isn't moving, then that shot should have the potential to be deadly, regardless of what underlying system is used. I think you as the DM would be well within your 'rights' to liberally apply a whopping attack and damage bonus to a shot like this.
Your mileage may vary, of course. But I think if your group would indeed have a problem with a scene like that, maybe a better solution would be to talk to them about it, out-of-game.
The same holds true for the queen's attack. Maybe the Crown of Fangs gave her a one-time energy surge (read: a damage bonus) that made her one-shot kill Endrin. It's really nothing a player should get worked up about.
Long rant cut short: I think that doing everything 'by the rules' is actually limiting the game where it shouldn't be limited, as nothing unexpected will ever happen. As long as you don't abuse this 'power' as a GM, I have found that it only enriches the game.
I don't believe my players will really question the story too much. I think they will glean the needed information from the situation:
1. The Queen may not be what she seems.
2. She is much more powerful than anyone thought.
3. She is much more evil than anyone thought.
I try to not get too tied up in game mechanics, remember we are playing a "phantasy" game and sometimes a good story is better than rolling the dice to figure out how it is going to work. I am sure if you build up the story enough and add the element of the story teller's desperate thoughts it will be enough to sell it to almost any player.
(note Bane is not really enough with 2d6 damage - it should probably be a unique, deadly artifact level magic item)
How about a slaying arrow?
We gave up on running CotCT as written because there just seemed to be too many bits that were really hard to make sense of. It just didn't seem possible to fix them all without abandoning the main plot. Any given one can be rationalized, but things get very fragile if you have to do that constantly.
Mary
Examples? Nothing's really stood out at me...
Examples? Nothing's really stood out at me...
I think some of it was along the lines of "Why didn't group X use Commune or Raise Dead to solve problem Y?" It's hard to have successful mysteries, assassinations, etc. in a city full of powerful spellcasters.
I really don't understand why this is a big deal. As a player, I would assume the following:
Endrin has favored enemy: human (as a law enforcer in a city, having graduated from an academy that requires 4 levels of Ranger for entry) with perhaps improved favored enemy for a total of say +9 if he's 10th level. The crit would be 2d8+18, for an average damage of 27. If he's lower than 10th level ranger, it's 2d8+14 for 23.
Endrin perhaps has rogue levels too;
Endrin assumes this is a low level NPC;
Endrin attempted a coup de grace but the Queen made a DC37 Fort save (or DC33);
The Queen is NOT a low level NPC and may be immune to crits.
I really don't understand why this is a big deal. As a player, I would assume the following:
Endrin has favored enemy: human (as a law enforcer in a city, having graduated from an academy that requires 4 levels of Ranger for entry) with perhaps improved favored enemy for a total of say +9 if he's 10th level. The crit would be 2d8+18, for an average damage of 27. If he's lower than 10th level ranger, it's 2d8+14 for 23.
According to p. 62 of the Korvosa book:
Examples? Nothing's really stood out at me...I think some of it was along the lines of "Why didn't group X use Commune or Raise Dead to solve problem Y?" It's hard to have successful mysteries, assassinations, etc. in a city full of powerful spellcasters.
It's not that hard. Especially when no one is working together. Divide and Conquer has long been a successful strategy.
Commune: "“Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient." Also, "The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes." I can easily see that the servants of the money-focused Abadar would answer in ways that further his interests and advance the plot. Let alone those of Asmodeus!
Raise Dead: They dealt with this regarding the King in the first pages of the path. Also, someone of Tuttle's faith is unlikely to volunteer free services to the Queen, and the Queen won't request them.
Alternatively, Tuttle is 8th level with levels in Justiciar?
More Spoilery stuff...Spoiler:By the time this third adventure's rolling, she's already really high level (probably aristocrat 2/bard 14 or thereabouts) and has a very powerful artifact to boot.
Aha!
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- Endrin must be fairly certain that the assassination will not simply be reversed by a Raise Dead, hence he must also have at least talked to the senior Clerics of Abadar and Sarenrae about their opinions of the Queen, in order to have hope that her assassination will spark a general uprising against the current monarchy which will be supported by many other powers in Korvosa (this may come as info to the players, depending on their contacts)
- Endrin's attack fails, to his and everyone else's great surprise, as the Queen recovers from a crossbow bolt to the head within seconds
- Ileosa pins him to the wall, and over several agonizing rounds strangles and stabs him to death, while everyone else watches in horror at the apparent ease and glee with which she does it
Actually, if you run with the "artifact-level crossbow bolt of slaying" option, all Ileosa might have to do is stab Endrin once with it. If he assumes it's going to work on her, there's no reason at all it should not work on him, too. Items that powerful and rules-bendy tend to not be single use anyway.
And, if you make certain the PCs know Ileosa still has the bolt, even if she "loses" it before they face her themselves, it gives them another reason not to f&^% with her. Or you could make sure she DOES have it, and adjust her CR accordingly, or just scare the crap out of the PCs by having her shoot one of them with it but deliberately let it miss. After all, they know now it won't work on HER...
Days, I like that. Even without artifacts,in Endrin has a Slaying Bolt (Human), and the queen is no longer human, the bolt won't be consumed. When she stabs HIM with it, though, it is used up, and he fails his fort save.
All the loose ends tied up, right there.
...Even if D20 uses hit-points as an abstract, it is (in my eyes) an absolute non sequitur that NPCs would take this fact into consideration when determining their actions.
...
But I think if your group would indeed have a problem with a scene like that, maybe a better solution would be to talk to them about it, out-of-game.
We'll just have to disagree on this one. I feel it takes away from the story if NPCs act stupidly or non-sensically. I abhor having to use GM fiat to explain story elements. I want to let the players uncover the mystery and discover the solution, not explain to them that they should just accept an unlikely action as fact because it railroads the story along. And I certainly don't want to have to tell a player that his character cannot ever do the same thing that an NPC did, because that was bending the rules.
The story should flow consistently, not be hampered by gotchas that require GM hand-waving. For instance, I've found the Pathfinder Journal stories to be very carefully written with the physical/magical laws of the world (if you will) of d20 in mind. The stories flow, and you can see how you might actually have the same actions happen during a game.
If ruling that this is a coup de grace situation bothers you, then, in game speak, have Endrin make the fatal mistake that 1d8+9+weapon bonus would kill her as the Frivolous Low Level NPC he assumes she is.
Examples? Nothing's really stood out at me...
We gave up on running CotCT as written because there just seemed to be too many bits that were really hard to make sense of. It just didn't seem possible to fix them all without abandoning the main plot. Any given one can be rationalized, but things get very fragile if you have to do that constantly.
Mary
Here's the thread with Mary's criticisms:
"Over Before It Begins"Warning: it almost turns into fisticuffs at one point.
:)
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Creative Director
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Honestly... I didn't think that this assassination scene would cause this much hubbub. We mentioned at the start of the campaign that we were going to include a few rules-light "cut scene" type encounters; the first took place at the end of "Edge of Anarchy." Again; it's a handy and efficient way to present key events and story developments without having to include pages of notes and stat blocks and other clutter that really doesn't impact the adventure much anyway.
But that said... I did keep some rules in mind while writing the scene. To see my take on what happened, backed up by some rules (don't expect full stat blocks), see the following:
So; she's got over 200 hit points, and a Fortitude save of about +19, and the Crown gives her some kick-ass protection (currently regeneration 20 with no weapon but Serithtial, the sword the PCs seek out in the previous adventure, "Skeletons of Scarwall," being able to inflict lethal damage, but that could still change).
Endrin tries to hit her with a coup de grace attack, shooting her while he thinks she's distracted, but she's got a pretty damn good Sense Motive check (currently about +22 or thereabouts; again, her final stat block is still being developed by me) and sees this coming all the way, so it isn't a proper coup de grace and only inflicts 1d8 or so points of damage.
Ileosa yanks the bolt out and grabs Endrin by the throat. Endrin did not expect this, and basically freezes up in a panic for a round. This allows Ileosa to perform a successful coup de grace attack on HIM, stabbing him with the bolt. According to the PHB, a hand-wielded bolt is basically treated as a dagger. She hits Endrin and scores the auto-crit for it being a coup de grace attack. She's also got not only a +4 bonus to damage from her Strength, but also a +3 bonus to damage because she used Perform (oratory) during her speech to give herself some bard bonuses. So she stabs him for 2d4+14 points of damage. That damage isn't enough to kill Endrin, but since it's a coup de grace attack, he DOES have to make the Fortitude save. Assuming she does average damage, that's a DC 29 Fort save. Endrin's got a Fort save of about +10 or +11 or +12 or thereabouts, and promptly proceeds to fail the nearly impossible saving throw.
Now... there's a little bit of handwaving going on in this scenario with the conditions for coup de grace, and while I'd never say that a PC could coup de grace a creature that's merely not paying attention rather than fully helpless (or vice versa)... for a cut-scene like this, it's okay.
If, on the other hand, you want to run this encounter as a typical fight, you can do so. You'll need to stat up Endrin (aristocrat 1/ranger 13 with a 25-point stat array and outfitted as an NPC so that he has 45,000 gp in gear) and wait for Ileosa's stats in Pathfinder #12 (aristocrat 2/bard 16 with the devil-bound template from Advanced Bestiary and 32-point stat array and PC levels of gear—about 440,000 gp—and with at least one pretty bad-ass artifact) to have them duke it out. The end result will be the same, especially when you realize Ileosa has Togomar (a 15th level wizard) and Sabina (a 14th level fighter) next to her to help defend her.
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We'll just have to disagree on this one. I feel it takes away from the story if NPCs act stupidly or non-sensically. I abhor having to use GM fiat to explain story elements....Even if D20 uses hit-points as an abstract, it is (in my eyes) an absolute non sequitur that NPCs would take this fact into consideration when determining their actions.
...
But I think if your group would indeed have a problem with a scene like that, maybe a better solution would be to talk to them about it, out-of-game.
So then the fact that we don't think about 'the rules' of the game of life when we make many of our decisions...
humor:
...Even if D20 uses hit-points as an abstract, it is (in my eyes) an absolute non sequitur that NPCs would take this fact into consideration when determining their actions.
...
But I think if your group would indeed have a problem with a scene like that, maybe a better solution would be to talk to them about it, out-of-game.We'll just have to disagree on this one. I feel it takes away from the story if NPCs act stupidly or non-sensically. I abhor having to use GM fiat to explain story elements. I want to let the players uncover the mystery and discover the solution, not explain to them that they should just accept an unlikely action as fact because it railroads the story along. And I certainly don't want to have to tell a player that his character cannot ever do the same thing that an NPC did, because that was bending the rules.
The story should flow consistently, not be hampered by gotchas that require GM hand-waving. For instance, I've found the Pathfinder Journal stories to be very carefully written with the physical/magical laws of the world (if you will) of d20 in mind. The stories flow, and you can see how you might actually have the same actions happen during a game.
I prefer disallowing PC metagaming to asking for a d20 explanation of a cut-scene, but I can totally understand your conundrum now, and I wish you luck in resolving it.
I'd be curious to know where you draw the line on metagaming in your game.
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Now... there's a little bit of handwaving going on in this scenario with the conditions for coup de grace, and while I'd never say that a PC could coup de grace a creature that's merely not paying attention rather than fully helpless (or vice versa)... for a cut-scene like this, it's okay.
See, this kind of scene would make me roll my eyes a bit as a player. I can deal with things happening for dramatic purposes, but I'm not crazy about special treatment for NPCs.
It's a little bit like the DM saying: "My NPC is so awesome -- this one time (at band camp) she punched a dragon in the nose so hard that its heart exploded through its chest. And another time (at band camp) a ninja tried to chop her head off with a uranium katana, but her neck broke the katana and she killed him with an awesome guitar solo."
:)
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Now... there's a little bit of handwaving going on in this scenario with the conditions for coup de grace, and while I'd never say that a PC could coup de grace a creature that's merely not paying attention rather than fully helpless (or vice versa)... for a cut-scene like this, it's okay.See, this kind of scene would make me roll my eyes a bit as a player. I can deal with things happening for dramatic purposes, but I'm not crazy about special treatment for NPCs.
But this happens in real life too.. those news stories like those of the 100 pound mother lifting a car after a crash to save her baby under it.... a feat that, for all intensive purposes, she shouldn't be able to do. Things happen that rules can't explain, and there are exceptions to every rule.
But this happens in real life too.. those news stories like those of the 100 pound mother lifting a car after a crash to save her baby under it.... a feat that, for all intensive purposes, she shouldn't be able to do.
See, this kind of scene would make me roll my eyes a bit as a player. I can deal with things happening for dramatic purposes, but I'm not crazy about special treatment for NPCs.
To be fair, I roll my eyes at news stories like that, too.
:)
I'm reminded of Lord Dunsany's story "The Three Sailors' Gambit" where three sailors are able to win a game of chess against the English champion using only a king and a row of pawns. A great story, but a pretty far-fetched interpretation of the rules of chess.
At any rate, it would be easy enough to say the queen was attacked while sleeping, or she was shot with an Arrow of Human Slaying, or that her head was cut off with a Vorpal sword (and yet she still survived). I don't think it's a problem.
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Creative Director
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At any rate, it would be easy enough to say the queen was attacked while sleeping, or she was shot with an Arrow of Human Slaying, or that her head was cut off with a Vorpal sword (and yet she still survived). I don't think it's a problem.
Perhaps... although those scenes are all less exciting (and the vorpal sword one is dangerous since that means that sword might end up in PC hands!). Also... it's just as important to the storyline that Endrin get killed as Ileosa's NOT killed by the attempt.
But certainly, you know your players best, and you should adapt the scene (or omit it entirely) if you think that it'll annoy them more than it'll entertain them.
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I think you might be surprised. If the players have really gotten into their characters, even the most jaded metagamer will roll with DM fiat if its used judiciously.
When I ran Son of Grummsh there was an assassination attempt scene at the end, and the players figured it was coming, but they played in character, not wearing full arms and armor to the feast, and letting the bad guy get his soliloquy in.
I was surprised there was not a 'soliloquy-interrupt' or other pre-emptive action, since that had been the MO in the past.
The players had really gotten into the story and wanted to let the story progress.
Perhaps... although those scenes are all less exciting (and the vorpal sword one is dangerous since that means that sword might end up in PC hands!). Also... it's just as important to the storyline that Endrin get killed as Ileosa's NOT killed by the attempt.
Right...but killing someone in an impressive way is much easier (in D&D) than surviving something in an impressive way. PCs survive dangerous stuff all the time.
DM: Queen Ileosa survived a crossbow shot to the head!
Player: O.K., I guess that means she has more than 20 hp. That's good to know.
DM: No, really. It's not like that crossbow bolt that hit your character in the head last week -- this was a deadly crossbow bolt to the head!
Player: Oh. Do you know where I can buy one of those?
:)
How often do your players survive crossbow bolts to the head in combat? How often do you tell them they were hit directly in the temple and survived?
D&D combat is nebulous, and doesn't provide details like that. Clearly that is the distinction provided by the scene as described. She suffered what would have been a mortal wound to any "normal" person, whether they were a 20th level Fighter (granted normalcy for that level is arguable) or a 1st level Peasant, and she survived, unphased, and deadlier than anyone could have conceived.
It was my understanding that HPs not only represent "life" and are measured via injury, but also include concepts like fatigue (i.e. swinging a greatsword is tiring, dodging someone swinging a greatsword at you is also tiring, running away because you have a greatsword stuck in your shoulder is also tiring, etc), and combat skill all wrapped up in a nebulous ball.
This conversation always makes me think of the "A" series of old AD&D modules where every NPC and their brother seemed to have a crossbow, and you could almost imagine the PCs were little more than pincushions after a couple of encounters. At least if you assumed that losing HPs equates to being struck and injured by whatever caused you to lose HPs each time.