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Keep on the Shadowfell Review


D&D 4th Edition (and Beyond)

101 to 107 of 107 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Bleach wrote:
If I was to compare 4E in combat to videogames, the best comparison is NOT the real-time WoW but the japanese turn-based strategy RPGs like Disgaea and La Pucelle Tactics.

This might be because D&D is not real time but turn based?

Also a DM can react to every situation individually. WoW has a software code that can react only to so many situations.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It s a great miniature game with fantasy elements, but not a RPG anymore. After the first ten minutes of slashing Kobolds I heard the first 'Do not take my candle',after twenty minutes people talked only in metagaming speak. We agreed on the following:
You need a battle grid - you can't translate the shifting powers to simple 5-feet steps. Which took a lot of 'surprise' aka imaging from the group.
The only powers you have are combat powers, there are no social specials. Which made the village a simple 'Where do I get the Quest for Kobold slaying?' A encounter took as exactly the same time as it did in 3.5
After the second encounter my player's and me were bored to death.

Cheliax

So far I have been squarely in the anti-4E camp, and while I might not approve of the methods Razz and co. have been using to announce their opinions, I can certainly appreciate it. I won't pretend I know heaps about the rules - I'm just nowhere near finished with 3.5. I really like the ease of customization 3rd edit. gives me, and have found that no matter how much my players powergame or use Book of Nine Swords, I can match it with equally powerful encounters and smart play. Not to say that 4E couldn't provide such an experience - I have no idea. I was just anxious that it might not. I would hate to be isolated from some great communities simply because I wasn't ready to plonk down the cash for another set of books when I hadn't finished my old ones. Now, reading both side's reviews and reconciling my natural fear of change to what I love with the reality that 4E may well be awesome, I have decided that it's different. Not necessarily worse for it, but different from 3E. The ideas and campaigns I run for 3.5 probably won't work in 4E. But that isn't to say that the new game won't inspire a whole new set of adventure plots.

In the end, 4E is NOT going to make me drop my 3.5 material in the bin and toss it off a cliff. But from the positive, reasoning voices and honest feedback here and elsewhere, I'll have to give it a try. Some like it, some hate, so I'm going to try it for myself. Fair enough, the game may well have turned into World of Miniaturecraft, and I'd be honestly disappointed if it has. On the other hand, the only campaign I'm still playing in rather than DMing is being run by a friend's father. He started D&D with the very first box, and his friends switch every week between 1st, 2nd, and 3.5. They're 3 completely different experiences, but they're all D&D, and I'm now convinced that 4E deserves a chance to join them. I'll probably just play both. So there you go.

I've been swayed. H1 is in my mail...

TWB


Verminlord wrote:

It s a great miniature game with fantasy elements, but not a RPG anymore. After the first ten minutes of slashing Kobolds I heard the first 'Do not take my candle',after twenty minutes people talked only in metagaming speak. We agreed on the following:

You need a battle grid - you can't translate the shifting powers to simple 5-feet steps. Which took a lot of 'surprise' aka imaging from the group.
The only powers you have are combat powers, there are no social specials. Which made the village a simple 'Where do I get the Quest for Kobold slaying?' A encounter took as exactly the same time as it did in 3.5
After the second encounter my player's and me were bored to death.

I have Keep on the Shadowfell and the quickstart rules are pretty condensed compared to what I imagine the PHB is going to be like.

I wouldn't judge the game based on this adventure. This was the extended trailer for the summer blockbuster. It doesn't show everything that can happen (except for the trailer for "Dumb & Dumber", which had every funny part from the movie).


Tharen the Damned wrote:
Bleach wrote:
If I was to compare 4E in combat to videogames, the best comparison is NOT the real-time WoW but the japanese turn-based strategy RPGs like Disgaea and La Pucelle Tactics.

This might be because D&D is not real time but turn based?

Also a DM can react to every situation individually. WoW has a software code that can react only to so many situations.

Which is my point and why I find it weird when people compare 4E to WoW. It plays NOTHING like WoW or any other MMORPG. I would consider a poster better informed if he actually compared it to something that actually plays like it.

re: KotS
I'm a 4E guy and I have no intention of buying this module until I have the Gift set in my hand and get a chance to read the bloody thing a month before. I just knew there were going to be problems in that a quickstart adventure product ALWAYS sucks. Personally, I think the product is slightly schrizophenic in that on the one hand it seems to assume that the players know about 4E beforehand while on the other hand, it actually assumes that the players have never played D&D before.

:re Combat in a RPG
So, I'm always curious about this when people say "It doesn't play like an RPG"? Compared to some of the classic 1E modules, I'm thinking most people don't ralize how RP-light, dungeon bashes tend to be.

Qadira

Verminlord wrote:

It s a great miniature game with fantasy elements, but not a RPG anymore. After the first ten minutes of slashing Kobolds I heard the first 'Do not take my candle',after twenty minutes people talked only in metagaming speak. We agreed on the following:

You need a battle grid - you can't translate the shifting powers to simple 5-feet steps. Which took a lot of 'surprise' aka imaging from the group.
The only powers you have are combat powers, there are no social specials. Which made the village a simple 'Where do I get the Quest for Kobold slaying?' A encounter took as exactly the same time as it did in 3.5
After the second encounter my player's and me were bored to death.

It sounds like you played it like a miniatures game. My group spent hours role playing in Winterhaven. And yes, powers are for combat - skills handle everything else.


Verminlord wrote:

It s a great miniature game with fantasy elements, but not a RPG anymore. After the first ten minutes of slashing Kobolds I heard the first 'Do not take my candle',after twenty minutes people talked only in metagaming speak. We agreed on the following:

You need a battle grid - you can't translate the shifting powers to simple 5-feet steps. Which took a lot of 'surprise' aka imaging from the group.
The only powers you have are combat powers, there are no social specials. Which made the village a simple 'Where do I get the Quest for Kobold slaying?' A encounter took as exactly the same time as it did in 3.5
After the second encounter my player's and me were bored to death.

I'm gonna chime in here too on this one. The rules given to the players in this adventure are VERY limited. One main thing to note, is that the adventure doesn't actually tell the DM either how to use most of the skills in the adventure, except for combat situations sometimes. This makes it hard to RP the NPC's and PC's since you're not sure exactly what you're rolling and against what DC.

The second thing is that all the characters are pre-generated, and this tends to separate a player's roleplaying ability from his character. I overcame this by naming the dwarf fighter after an old dwarf character I used to play, and the group took an instant interest in what I had to say. This in turn encouraged more roleplaying from out group, and we all had a good time.

I do understand that the combats tend to focus around the class powers, which I actually like as I am sick of dealing with PC's trying to use combat abilities in social situations, or constantly using cheesy spells to pump up their Charisma score to become good at Diplomacy or Intimidate. That is roll-playing, NOT role-playing.

So all that being said, I think WotC may have made a mistake in releasing this before the sourcebooks, as it probably will leave a sour taste in most people's mouths rather than get them salivating for the full-blown game.


Verminlord wrote:

It s a great miniature game with fantasy elements, but not a RPG anymore. After the first ten minutes of slashing Kobolds I heard the first 'Do not take my candle',after twenty minutes people talked only in metagaming speak. We agreed on the following:

You need a battle grid - you can't translate the shifting powers to simple 5-feet steps. Which took a lot of 'surprise' aka imaging from the group.
The only powers you have are combat powers, there are no social specials. Which made the village a simple 'Where do I get the Quest for Kobold slaying?' A encounter took as exactly the same time as it did in 3.5
After the second encounter my player's and me were bored to death.

When I hear stuff like this, I wonder what people expect combat to be like. Also, looking over almost all of the classes in 3rd Edition, I think the only class with a "social special" is the bard with fascinate. I guess.

Taldor

@ crosswired - well, well, aren't you just in your element in this thread! good for you.

@ Razz et al. - I think Razz view point is just as valid as anyone else's. I'll go back and read through Razz's other posts to be sure I am not endorsing nasty behavior, but in this thread it appears Razz's view point was not welcomed. I think it should be, along with all others.

Qadira

Pax Veritas wrote:
I think Razz view point is just as valid as anyone else's.

So it is valid to call people deluded because they see 4e as a legitimate edition of D&D?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Antioch wrote:


When I hear stuff like this, I wonder what people expect combat to be like. Also, looking over almost all of the classes in 3rd Edition, I think the only class with a "social special" is the bard with fascinate. I guess.

I was in high hopes, because some of the developer said, that there would be something like a social combat system in the 4.0. I missed this dearly in the 3.5 and other games (like Exalted) showed how it worked. In 3.5 you could choose if like to play with a battlegrid or not, that decison was taken away, you need it now. In our campaign we use characters like the crusader, the truenamer and cross-class, so we are used to have a lot of possibilities in combat, so it seemed that the changes were not really so different, at least not enough to inspire the gamers.


Nah, I think that if you really dont want to use a battle mat that you still wont have to. You'll miss about us much as you would in 3rd Edition, but if everyone's kill with the DM making lots of guesstimates, then everything should be fine.
Also, there IS a social encounter mechanic: skill challenges.


Verminlord wrote:
Antioch wrote:


When I hear stuff like this, I wonder what people expect combat to be like. Also, looking over almost all of the classes in 3rd Edition, I think the only class with a "social special" is the bard with fascinate. I guess.
I was in high hopes, because some of the developer said, that there would be something like a social combat system in the 4.0. I missed this dearly in the 3.5 and other games (like Exalted) showed how it worked. In 3.5 you could choose if like to play with a battlegrid or not, that decison was taken away, you need it now. In our campaign we use characters like the crusader, the truenamer and cross-class, so we are used to have a lot of possibilities in combat, so it seemed that the changes were not really so different, at least not enough to inspire the gamers.

Well I'd wait until we actually see a good adventure using these rules before making the final call on this. Its been a long time, IMO, since WOTC did a good adventure that was not farmed out to some third party source. I'll be interested in seeing if Necromancer Games can do something cool with the system in their 4E AP. I've not really tried any of their adventures so I'm not really sure what to expect - but it'll probably blow whatever WOTC does unless they get smart and farm adventure design out to some people with talent in this area.

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