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Numeria


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Qadira

Sebastian wrote:


So, last night, I was watching Thundarr the Barbarian, which arrived along with the mysterious unscrambling of Boomerang in my cable package. I had vague memories of the show from watching it as a kid, I knew it was set on a post apocalyptic world, had a generic pre-he-man-esque protagonist, and a wookie-like dude on a fishy looking dinosaur horse.

Now, as cool as that sounds, I was floored by how packed with awesome the episodes I watched were. And when I say packed with awesome, I don't mean it had a good plot, character development, funny jokes, cool action scenes, or anything like that. Oh, no, when I mean packed full of awesome, I mean:

The Earth suffered almost complete destruction in the far off year of 1994 when a comet sucked off the atmosphere!
The Moon was broken in half by the comet that destroyed the Earth.
2,000 years later, Earth is full of magic and the ruins of civilization (which ruins are still standing, mostly undamaged, despite the passage of so much time).
Thundarr fought a wizard wearing an astronaut helmet, who turned out to be, I s*$+ you not, a robot, who then turned out to be a glowing green brain in a robot body.
That point bears repeating: they fought a glowing, green, pulsating brain robot wizard (GGPBRW).
While fighting the GGPBRW, Thundarr cuts off its robot hand, to which the GGPBRW responds "You cannot hurt me." Uh, he just cut off your f@~~ing hand - I think he can hurt you.
While in a spaceship, going into orbit, they cut a hole in the ground, and leaped out, on horseback, landing in the water, and suffering no adverse effects.
He has a light saber.
They fought rat men who were riding motorcyles and wielding clubs that shoot laser beams in the ruins of Manhattan.
A bad guy animiated the Planet of the Apes-esque ruins of the Statue of Liberty, which attacked the heroes, including by shooting flames from its torch.
Say it with me: Robot wizard.
I could go on, but the point is, the show was everything cool in science fiction from the late 70s/early 80s mixed with pulp fantasy magic/barbarians, held together by a series of fights that could charitably be described as a plot by only the most mentally challenged amongs us, and animated using Hanna Barbara's normal (and hideiously crappy) techniques (I was shocked at the lack of a speech impedimented talking dog sidekick).

If Rifts had an animated series, watered down for kids, this is what it would look like.

If ever "so bad it's good" needed a poster child, this is it.

Ah I see I am not the only one. Numeria is stuffed with awesome.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have a copy of the old EttBP module and was going to take a stab at converting it over. That didn't last too long though. lol. That is one big, multi-level dungeon with many many 1st edition creatures and items to convert! I do want to play it sometime though, so I may try again to convert it to Golarion and Pathfinder once I have time.

Numeria is my favorite concept region of Golarion. Favorite planet concept would be Castrovel. Sometime in the future, we are going to run a campaign on that planet using the 3PP book Noble Wild, having all the PCs be sentient animals with classes.


Players Guide to Numeria coming out at about the same time as Distant Worlds sounds like a decent match to me.


Crimson Jester wrote:
Sebastian wrote:


So, last night, I was watching Thundarr the Barbarian, which arrived along with the mysterious unscrambling of Boomerang in my cable package. I had vague memories of the show from watching it as a kid, I knew it was set on a post apocalyptic world, had a generic pre-he-man-esque protagonist, and a wookie-like dude on a fishy looking dinosaur horse.

Now, as cool as that sounds, I was floored by how packed with awesome the episodes I watched were. And when I say packed with awesome, I don't mean it had a good plot, character development, funny jokes, cool action scenes, or anything like that. Oh, no, when I mean packed full of awesome, I mean:

The Earth suffered almost complete destruction in the far off year of 1994 when a comet sucked off the atmosphere!
The Moon was broken in half by the comet that destroyed the Earth.
2,000 years later, Earth is full of magic and the ruins of civilization (which ruins are still standing, mostly undamaged, despite the passage of so much time).
Thundarr fought a wizard wearing an astronaut helmet, who turned out to be, I s*$+ you not, a robot, who then turned out to be a glowing green brain in a robot body.
That point bears repeating: they fought a glowing, green, pulsating brain robot wizard (GGPBRW).
While fighting the GGPBRW, Thundarr cuts off its robot hand, to which the GGPBRW responds "You cannot hurt me." Uh, he just cut off your f@~~ing hand - I think he can hurt you.
While in a spaceship, going into orbit, they cut a hole in the ground, and leaped out, on horseback, landing in the water, and suffering no adverse effects.
He has a light saber.
They fought rat men who were riding motorcyles and wielding clubs that shoot laser beams in the ruins of Manhattan.
A bad guy animiated the Planet of the Apes-esque ruins of the Statue of Liberty, which attacked the heroes, including by shooting flames from its torch.
Say it with me: Robot wizard.
I could go on, but the point is, the show was everything cool in science fiction from the

...

Jack kirby do I need to say more

Besides In my campain the a Second moon called the sphere
Spoiler:
It was built by the aboleth as a prison for invading alien and should you try to destroy it you also destroy this world too

Osirion

Now that Distant Worlds is out, has anyone found a link between Numeria and a specific planet? Has Paizo identified the alien culture that produced the Numerian ship, or is that still a mystery?


No, however the "Capital Ship" that crashed into Numeria is cited as being far more advanced than any currently extant civilization is capable of building. Even the Aetherships of some worlds pale in comparison. So, it not only remains a mystery, it has become a bigger one!


Wouldn't Numeria also be a good place to introduce psionics to the setting? I know that Paizo said they didn't have any plans for creating their own psionics sourcebook, but that isn't stopping me from wishing really, really hard that they will. Paizo's game design team and artists are amazing when they put their minds to something. By the way, I wish I had a giant scorpion robot like the Numerians do...


Jabborwacky wrote:
Wouldn't Numeria also be a good place to introduce psionics to the setting? I know that Paizo said they didn't have any plans for creating their own psionics sourcebook, but that isn't stopping me from wishing really, really hard that they will. Paizo's game design team and artists are amazing when they put their minds to something. By the way, I wish I had a giant scorpion robot like the Numerians do...

Nevermind, I didn't realize that Dreamscar Press was still supporting psionics.

Silver Crusade

my players infitrated the Silver Mount and I had to make stuff up (MSU)
basicly they joined the pathfinder socity early on in Abslaom, did a few minor quests aroudn the city and joined up, I just said "well here's the map, you guys can organize can expedition to any of these lands, the socity just asks you keep a journal, bring some artifacts back, and don't doom the world."
after long debate, the two veteran players realized "holy @!$% those mountians in Numeria are MADE of adamantine" I did nothing to disuade them as they set out with a batch of adimantine daggers (for chipping away adamantine blocks) in search of their fortune, and spent the rest of their current wealth on a teleport spell from the wizard's collage, promptly forgot their horse.
I'd like to share my imporvised events with you.

After running smack dab into The Leauge and their metal legions on arrival and seeing the state of the city and the people ruled by the black tyrant, they promptly resolved to overthrow him somehow with their newfound wealth and magical artifacts, which they did not have yet.
Instead thanks to good diplomacy after being apprehended for attacking a Gearsmen (one simply scanned them with a beam they promptly freaked out and fireballed it, it ended badly) the two mages (ratfolk and grippli) were "inducted" into the leauge they had to drink, and deal with the addiction to and halloucinations from the sludges coming out of the mountian.
Homebrew stuff
Green Sludge: alchemical brew, +4 con -2 wis, Addiction DC 25 Withdrawl: Severe
Blue Sludge:Alchemical Brew, +4 int -2 str, Addiction DC: 30 withdrawl: Life Threatening
Yellow Sludge:Organic Brew, +4 Wis -2 Chr -4 saves to resist mental domination, Addiction DC 25 Withdrawl: Severe,
They do not interact having more than one sluge in one's system gains the most recent one benefet, and all drawbacks.

Anyways, the Gearsmen actually gave them (mentally downloaded to the only clean and clear member of the party) an opening in their interchanging patrols around the mountians, but said nothing else.
The players did what players do, snuck through, and searched for the enterence. actually a hanger bay it took them FOREVER to find the emergency release, the Grippli Sorcerer was sent flying by the ejecting emergency door because he was standing right in front of it.

Inside was a twisting turning maze that made no sense, corridors that doubled back or crossed over themselves without the logical turns that a dungeons would have.
Wizard: "wait, we went left, then right, then right again, and we wind up... back at my marking rune? how the heck did we wind up going in a circle?"
Sorcerer: "maybe it's someone else's mark"
Cleric: *rolls* "is it?"
DM: "yes you recognize his handwriting"
Cleric: "guys, I think we have a problem..."
they randomly encountered a few old foes from the famious module, I had to look them up actually, and a few new foew I wrote up. including but not limited to...
Robotic dogs with Laser breath (Wardog with construct traits and a ranged touch attack that does 2d6 fire damage)
Carver droids: Gargoyle statblock with a new outward appearance changing the claw damage up a D size and making it electric and calling them Carvers.
Advanced Procurment and Bio-Recycling (APBR): orge statblock, again with construct traits, a stun beam (fort DC 17 or be stunned for 1d4 turns)and the advanced template.
They also ran into a single bodak they thought was a crewmember (it was a human explorer that put on an eviro-suit to survive and later died in a horrific fashion)

Traps included lasers turrets from the walls, elerctricty (a jungle of hanging wires actually, one of them touching the floor, players failed to spot it.) and force field walkways that shorted out at the most inoppertune times.

they ran into four rooms.
Med Bay: and it's rouge holographic AI, it took on the image of the most populas species, in this case human. spoke Aklo, and was conducting strange experiments on victims that wandered into the silver mount. (actually it asked the gearsmen to "send unique samples" up to it) if not for quick thinking (and a bigh bluff using a crew member's suit) the sorcerer was going to be spliced up and implanted with another species organs. (gaining a random template) they could not command Medbay but it did would not harm crewmembers without their permission.
Medbay computer hub Statblock at a glance: Immobile Tower projecting the image of *whatever Dm wants Medbay to look like* in the dim red lights you can see needles, circular saws, and flickering blades of light attached to the base.
HP: Large Construct 225, DR 20-magic, Golem traits, Attacks, Needle injection 2d6=4 Peircing affects borrowed from alchemical golem + 25% chance of minor mutation, Sawblade 2d8+4 slicing damage, laser grafters 4d3+0 fire damage (full round action), Vibro-saw 2d8+4 (untyped)

Bio-containment: a room full of iron glass containing random creatures that Medbay has spliced, sliced, and deemed falures.
they played with buttons and accidently released some of the creatures, luckally they only released intelligent creatures, and so long as they did not get in the way, the beings would try to just run outta there. I basicly just slammed random creatures togeather owlbear style.
they also released a Human/Akata hybrid who they actually had a conversation with, whoever they talked to was going to deliver the next plot point.
Specimen Containment: Medbay's "successes" alive and contained in row after row of cages, they accidently set off security and were almost gassed along with the rest of the creatures. they also released a whole mess of real Akata in their scambling away into the vents. I put them there and realized they were the only thing in there except the bots that didn't breathe...

Map Room: a room with a bunch of holoraphic star charts that made no sense

They eventually made their way to a teleporter room with live specimens (abductiees) they managed to save.
medbay freaked out and was sending people, they had activated the teleporter, people from all diffrent worlds were going to flee through the gat to abaslom, all the pc's had to do was cover the escape.

the final battle never happened because flu season and tourist season hit (everybody's working around the clock) and killed the rythem, and eventually the game itself.

what do you all think?


Numeria is an awesome idea. I had two ideas for the campaign

1. A colony ship from a far off world attempts to colonize Golarion. On board the vessel are many different races fleeing from a galaxy shaking cataclysm. During the passage to Golarion, the gravitic drives fail on medium-atmosphere entry and impacts into the planet, releasing both the gene-engineered fauna and flora the races were going to use to start a new planet. The drive core for the FTL transport uses a rare earth metal that causes mutations if not confined behind heavy shielding, and as it leaks out, a large colony of frogs grows to sentience and eventual humanoid form.

At the same time, the ship AI (because crazy AIs are always a good trope), horribly damaged from the pieces the ship is in, releases security drones and whatever remaining people from cold storage (unless your FTL is insanely fast, a large scale colony ship would require a hell of a lot of resources that may not be able to be artificially generated). The survivors begin to get cut down fast until they can get away from the ship, or the madness going around. A three-way war breaks out, between the sentient frog-people (most likely boggards), the AI security drones, and whatever is left from the survivors. Eventually, the frogs prevail, and build a lavish civilization combining technology and boggard sorcery/cleric spells, only to lose it as the ever increasing population of human slaves overwhelms them and crushes their newfound empire. The boggards fall into decay and abandon, and the mountainous ship becomes a new source of wealth for Numeria.

Upon destroying the boggards' fallen civilization, the slaves proclaim themselvs free men, and then fall upon each other (as humans eventually do) to claim what is left from the ruins. One man becomes ruler, and founds a line of Black Sovereigns empowered by a piece of the drive core, which is kept in a ring. The black ring is known as the Warp Stone, and is used to power various pieces of the boggard civilization. (Another obvious shoutout to the great Karl Edward Wagner, whose character Kane has vanished from most people's memory.) The Technic League is formed by a cult of addicted barbarian shamans and clerics, who delve the ship, the boggard cities, and the remaining robots for powerful items.

The survivors from the ship either interbreed or become warped creations of the environment, and begin to form a counter cult known as the Saviors from the Sky who opposes the Technic League and the Black Sovereign. They find ardent worshipers amongst the decayed renmants of the boggards, and the Cult of the Great Sky Frog is born (I know Paizo can't use it, but I will. All hail Dave Arneson and Blackmoor!) The AI assembles what resources it can, and a four way power struggle between the Cult of the Great Sky Frog, the Technic League, the unaligned barbarian tribes, and the mad Reaper of Metal fill Numeria's nights and days with horror.

2. Thundarr the Barbarian mixed with 2000 AD comics, and add some other stuff to the mix.

Currently, I'm going with number 1 since it ties into my current Kingmaker game, where the King of Pitax has managed to recruit more of his Technic League brethren in preparation of the invasion into the Shadow Dragon Serpent Empire of Uruluke.. Most of the tech I use will come straight from d20 future/modern and potentially Amethyst, if it comes out before the groups gets to that point.

Silver Crusade

I also kinda used the colony idea, they only visited part of the ship.
though I left out the rising and falling of boggards.
Medbay's actual goal was to re-create the colonizing race, but it's memory banks were damaged in the crash so it's been playing splice and slice and doing things the computational hard way.
1111111
1111112
1111113
medbay's was doing that with genetics.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Maps, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Areteas wrote:
I understand the urge to integrate other planets into the D&D cosmology without disrupting sword & sorcery too much, but there are so many better examples of how to do this out there (John Carter of Mars, application of the teleport series of spells, aforementioned adventure, etc).

Distant Worlds......


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some Numerian monsters coming up in the Inner Sea Bestiary just announced!


I used the old Mage Vs. Machine articles to build a growing dungeon delve, creature I used were converted from constructs to robots or bio based constructs. I plan on re-running my Machine Cyst game though with Distant Worlds in hand. Aballonians trying to integrate skytech seems to be a interesting plot hook with league lurks going out to 'clean' up the infection.

I'm tempted to convert Temple of the Frog and City of the Gods to run in pathfinder as a mission for technic league cadets to get a hold of some skytech out of non-numerian hands.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

KarlBob wrote:
Now that Distant Worlds is out, has anyone found a link between Numeria and a specific planet? Has Paizo identified the alien culture that produced the Numerian ship, or is that still a mystery?

Nothing official, but I went for a link to the first planet, Aballon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Freedom16 wrote:
I'm tempted to convert Temple of the Frog and City of the Gods to run in pathfinder as a mission for technic league cadets to get a hold of some skytech out of non-numerian hands.

Hadn't occurred to me until now, but those two modules would be perfect for restaging in/around Numeeria.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Freedom16 wrote:
I'm tempted to convert Temple of the Frog and City of the Gods to run in pathfinder as a mission for technic league cadets to get a hold of some skytech out of non-numerian hands.
Hadn't occurred to me until now, but those two modules would be perfect for restaging in/around Numeeria.

Some one even told me the Earthshaker module would be a great conversion for numeria, though I never ran it so I'm not sure what it is besides a giant machine going crazy while people fight for control inside. Seemed like a good idea but never ran it so not sure.Though where would Temple of the Frogs be placed? I thought Sodden Lands or on the edge of Numeria in a swampy region? I'm not sure exactly where to place the city of the gods though, would be a tricky move though with Distant worlds it might be introduced as a anglam of things.

The old Mage VS. Machine and its sequel articles offers some great material to be converted as well, spells and items that affect tech and create tech out of scrapped sheens/constructs. I let a player playing a technic league alchemist scrap a construct who had limbs and mid section mostly undamaged scrap what was left to construct an extra limb that could only be used x/ a day or else it could break from over use. Some of the items in the articles I tossed into Red Redoubt because they weren't to alien. A pair of boots that allowed phasing through walls and a cloak of shields that had tech woven into its fibers. Though the article is more for DM's in a sense because it does mention a Machine Cyst, a place that spaces machines either through haywire programming or a infectious 'virus' spreading its corruption. Could either be skytech constructs going out and attempting to rebuild or abollonian constructs attempting to build a secluded factory to integrate skytech into their design.

I also like the machine mage and sheen chaser kits introduced for the 2nd ED of AD&D, been wanting to convert them for a long time now but never could get a right balance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Freedom16 wrote:
Some one even told me the Earthshaker module would be a great conversion for numeria, though I never ran it so I'm not sure what it is besides a giant machine going crazy while people fight for control inside. Seemed like a good idea but never ran it so not sure.

That's the gist of it, yeah. The robot was reanimated/created by gnomes, and a guy takes it around the nation as an amusement in his circus. Some bad guys get inside and take it over and it rampages through the realm. The PCs have to stop it.

Fairly bland plot, as it goes, with the option of making it a bit more involved (by making the dominion one belonging to a PC, for instance). And the robot is huge, so sneaking around trying to take out the villains can take a while.

Quote:
Though where would Temple of the Frogs be placed? I thought Sodden Lands or on the edge of Numeria in a swampy region? I'm not sure exactly where to place the city of the gods though, would be a tricky move though with Distant worlds it might be introduced as a anglam of things.

Good questions, both. I was wondering about this this morning myself. The City of the Gods itself could very well be the Silver Mount.

I'd be tempted to make the Sandfolk into Shobhad-neh.


Another good source for the magically inclined is the D&D book of Marvelous Inventions (1984), including Jaggar's Transforming Gargantoid. It would be Mystara for 2nd Ed, but this had all sorts of cool stuff from an astral ball that made TV shows from our world into reality, to the weather manipulating balloon equipped with permanent wands of lightning and ice storm.


As I understand it, star mountain is BIG! like...giganticly over the top stupidly large machine kinda big.

well...ok. that's all good. big shiny place for foolish players to go muck about with. But...what if star mountain wasn't the ONLY ship to come crashing down? what if bits of it broke off as it arced across the sky, and those bits embedded themselves along the flight path of the ship as it came crashing down? it might be reasonable to assume that some of those bits were 'merely' the size of say...a modern day cruiser or perhaps skyscraper. and you could drop something like that almost anywhere in the world, long buried and deactivated/dormant until [insert cause here] wakes it up.

just a thought anyways.

And while i'm thinking/pondering, I have a suggestion. lots of good ideas in this thread for incorporating old stuff/modules from previons editions of our beloved incarnations of D&D into Numeria campaigns. but...that's approaching the subject from the perspective of 'sci inserted into fantasy'. lets flip that around a moment and go from 'fantasy got into my sci fi'. A potential for all KINDS of fun would be to see some of the technology from say...Eclipse Phase getting into Pathfinder. Transhuman modification and immortality (not to mention custom morph designs), nanofabrication tech, sythmorphs, portable computer that store data on a nano scale and are very durable. do some reading on the Eclipse Phase forums and ponder the big bads from that universe getting lost and ending up on Golarion. interesting stuff indeed...


Well, for all those who want some inspiration for Numeria and what it might be like, try reading the book Roadside Picnic. It is what STALKER is based on and it is superior to it.


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For the longest time, I hated high tech sci-fi mixed with fantasy, until I read The Dark Tower series (by Stephen King). It was years ago when I initially read the series, but after picking up the most recent book, The Wind Through the Keyhole, I'm rereading the series (as well as the Marvel adaptations) and finding that sci-fi and fantasy can mix quite well in the proper context. Not to say that there aren't eye-rolling moments in the series, but for the most part, it works well.

In The Dark Tower, we have a world that's "moved on," and become what's mostly a post-apocalyptic wasteland inhabited by gunslingers, sorcerers, demon cults, barbaric nomads, vampires, mutants, shape-shifters, dragons (in The Wind Through the Keyhole) and the technological relics of the past, which are typically dangerous enough to kill anyone foolish enough to mess with them if they don't know what they're doing. Surprisingly, it all works well together.

It's a world of brutality, sorcery, mutating nuclear fallout, demons, robots (including one that gives a character psionic abilities), cybernetic animals, insane AI driven monorails, and more. Many of the technological relics are leftover from a manufacturer called North Central Positronics, which are cutting edge, and their taint is found nearly everywhere.

I hadn't paid much attention to Numeria until now (I had completely forgotten about it until last night), and now I'm considering running a campaign there loosely based on The Dark Tower series. Especially seeing how closely it sits to the Worldwound, where I can throw demons in and have it still fit within the mythos and feel of The Dark Tower. Particularly now that I have a copy of Rasputin Must Die, and I can throw tanks, gas masks, and automatic weapons into the mix. Thanks, Paizo!

If you haven't read The Dark Tower series and you're wondering how to mix sci-fi with your fantasy, it's worth checking out. Particularly the graphic novels from Marvel. It helps to SEE it meld together. I also have to mention, I'm not a Stephen King fan, but The Dark Tower series is pretty bloody memorable, and I think it's definitely worth mentioning in a discussion of mixing sci-fi and fantasy.


I still think it's better to just do the "sci-fi" with magic. The fabricate spell is a fibber, brilliant energy weapons are lasers, body alterations are done with polymorph items and so on.


Not a big fan of this Vibe. I played EttBP back in the day, and enjoyed it... but I also enjoyed Coca-cola golems and all the other moronic crap Greyawk threw at us. I'm not 16 anymore.

I'm not saying Gol shouldn't have it - all fans should get their flavors - but I am glad there hasn't been a lot of focus on it. I will pilfer bits and pieces of it, however - the 'Star Metal' stuff is easily translatable into fantasy terms. If I use anything similar to this, it would be more of a steampunk/Arcanotech vibe for me (remembering the Blackmoor civilization with some fondness). The crashed spaceship would actually have 'fallen through time' from ancient Azlant.

James Jacobs wrote:
1) I'm not a fan of Spelljammer—it's too silly and filled with weird and unappealing elements of self-mockery for my tastes.

SOOOOO completely in agreement with this statement.

I love fanatsy, but I also want my fantasy to be able to exist beside reality. SJ took reality and throw it right out the window.

If PF ever decides to do a 'sailing between worlds' sort of thing, please use Planesjammers instead - ships that sail the Astral Seas - an old (and VERY good) trope. As a Moorcoick fan, I love the idea of taking a ship to other worlds, but SJ just made my skin crawl (and not in a good way).


Beyond the capital Starfall though, isn't Numeria mostly just a regular barbarian land like the Realm of the Mammoth Lords?

- so crusaders passing through don't see lots of laser-armed barbarians, and Ustalav, Brevoy and the River Kingdoms don't have to contend with high-tech warriors running across the border.

I like the idea ok, as long it is contained in some way and doesn't contaminate bordering realms which each have their own themes.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

The big capital ship that crashed there broke up before it hit the ground, so there are smaller sections of the ship (i.e. "dungeons") spread out all over the place. See also my first post in this thread (five years ago!) regarding swaths of radiation, etc.


Expedition Beyond the Barrier Pecks, and later Tale of the Comet in the 90s.
Ah good memories.

Taldor

A few other inspirations. Lords of Light - Zelazny book.

The Tales of...series of JRPGs feature a LOT of technology passing itself as magic.

Early Final Fantasy 1-5 did this as well.

Osirion

There's tons. There was high tech left behind in Andre Norton's Witch World novels, McCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern, Saberhagen's Empire East, Friedman's When True Night Falls, Moorcock's Corum Chronicles, etc., etc.

Norton, Bushyager, etc. also mixed up magic with 'psionics' as well, as did the Deryni Chronicles, IIRC.

The genre has *always* been a big happy melting pot. Even Conan got a little 'Mythos' dipped in there, IIRC.


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Ummm Jack Vance? ;)

We did get our magic system from Scify, NOT fantasy. 'Vancian Magic' (Dying Earth) was closer to psionics in its original form - you had to impress certain patterns onto your brain.

BTW Set, I'm impressed - I had forgotten about a couple of those (and I don't impress easily). I've read Empire of the East four times - its an amazing piece of literature.

But here's the thing - I want the blend to be smooth and feel organic, not be like 'spaceships and wizards!' If it doesn't make sense, then its just not good (to me). Thats why I didn't like Spelljammer - it basically took EttBP and threw it out the window (because EttBP was based on RW physics, unlike SJ, which was based on a lot of crack-smoking). If you have a universe where SJ physics work, then Earth couldn't possibly be in that universe... at least not our Earth. The idea that the USS Enterprise could run into a Spanish Galleon sailing through space is just ridiculous. Fantasy (and especially scify) should build upon RW physics, and add layers, not completely disregard it.

In other words, if you are going to do it at all, do it RIGHT. At least Paizo has a good running record in that dept.

Osirion

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MarkusTay wrote:
We did get our magic system from Scify, NOT fantasy. 'Vancian Magic' (Dying Earth) was closer to psionics in its original form - you had to impress certain patterns onto your brain.

Heh, yeah, when your 'magic' system requires you to use a word like 'mnemonics,' it's probably not terribly folkloric or mythical in nature. :)

I do like when various game systems (such as White Wolf's more esoteric Thaumaturgy paths, based on real world magical practices, or stuff like Binding or Truenaming) go for a less science-y and mechanical and more 'magical' feeling system of magic.

That being said, we've all grown up with media in which 'magic' is essentially people shooting lasers from their hands or using telekinesis or telepathy or teleportation like Dr. Strange or Willow, from Buffy, or the 'witches' from Charmed.

A game that had a magic system in which the magic-user spent three days gathering hair and spittle from their victim and fashioning an effigy and then the net result of their spell was that the person had a string of bad luck, or got sick, would probably satisfy exactly no one. :)

Quote:
BTW Set, I'm impressed - I had forgotten about a couple of those (and I don't impress easily). I've read Empire of the East four times - its an amazing piece of literature.

Awesome book. A classic, definitely. Love the origins of 'demons.' Easily one of the most original and innovative ideas I've seen. Love the godlike being summoned halfway through being so 'heavy' that the space itself seemed to sag around it. Som the Dead. The betrayed evil commander's dying thought being how he ever thought an empire based on treachery could possibly ever work. Lots of memorable stuff.

Quote:
But here's the thing - I want the blend to be smooth and feel organic, not be like 'spaceships and wizards!' If it doesn't make sense, then its just not good (to me).

I agree, to an extent. That's why Star Wars, IMO, gets that part right. There is pretty much 'magic,' all the way to the Sith thinking of their Force powers as 'sorcery' and doing 'rituals' and stuff, but there's also a deeper philosophical bent to it (and we'll just totally ignore the midichlorians crap).

A magic system that has magic as a result of the universe being created by deific entities, and some mortals learning to hear the lingering echoes of the 'words of creation' or find out how to hijack whatever tools or processes the gods (or beings that preceded the gods?) used to create the universe, and then use them, in small and limited ways (by divine standards, even a wish spell is 'small and limited!'), to mess with creation, making new stuff (often temporary), moving stuff around, or unmaking other stuff.

Perhaps that's because every object or creature in creation carries some sort of 'pattern' or 'true name' or something that holds it together in the form it's currently in, allowing a magic-user that has figured out how to access that programming and cause it to form into a new thing, or just mess with its functions (to make it sick, or debuff one of it's attributes, or paralyze it, or just damage it), or enhance it's functions (tweak your 'pattern' to be a bit more 'bear-like,' and bang, now you have 'bear's endurance!') or whatever.

Perhaps it's because there are words echoing around in the astral / ethereal / whatever space, lingering from the words of creation uttered so long ago, and by attempting to speak those words, a much weaker mortal mage might not be able to create a mountain, or a new species of life, but might be able to create a wall of stone, or summon a monster from nothingness, for a very short time. The magic-user translates the language of creation, and uses it to 'steal the power of the gods.' Clerics are actually taught these words, as part of working for the gods, while wizards, by their standards, are playing with forces they have not earned the right to dabble with, and sometimes do stuff that the gods probably don't want mortals doing (which is why clerics don't get access to the same spells, since the gods don't really think mortals have the maturity or wisdom necessary to be throwing meteor storms around).

There might be multiple conflicting theories about how all this works, about the 'science' behind the 'magic,' and, as the gods aren't terribly interested in teaching mortals how it all works and letting them become *even more powerful, even faster,* they tend to dodge questions on these topics. (With the exceptions of 'gods' who *love* for mortals to get in over their heads, such as the Great Old Ones, who will absolutely hand out 'forbidden knowledge' that will lead to a rift into outer space sucking in half of a community and then collapse, leaving behind a devastated city and, as a parting gift, a couple hundred Akata and some Hounds of Tindalos...)

Taldor

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Julian May's various series inspired a LOT of how Psionics works in D&D.


I've been thinking about this a bit, I think also there's a movement in a lot of fantasy to keep magic aristocratic.


Set wrote:
A game that had a magic system in which the magic-user spent three days gathering hair and spittle from their victim and fashioning an effigy and then the net result of their spell was that the person had a string of bad luck, or got sick, would probably satisfy exactly no one. :)

You hadn't played with a lot of Ars Magic or Mage The Ascension fans, had you? :P


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Having played both, they are rarely that esoteric.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Drejk wrote:
Set wrote:
A game that had a magic system in which the magic-user spent three days gathering hair and spittle from their victim and fashioning an effigy and then the net result of their spell was that the person had a string of bad luck, or got sick, would probably satisfy exactly no one. :)
You hadn't played with a lot of Ars Magic or Mage The Ascension fans, had you? :P

Verbena witches still freak me out.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Set wrote:
A game that had a magic system in which the magic-user spent three days gathering hair and spittle from their victim and fashioning an effigy and then the net result of their spell was that the person had a string of bad luck, or got sick, would probably satisfy exactly no one. :)
You hadn't played with a lot of Ars Magic or Mage The Ascension fans, had you? :P
Verbena witches still freak me out.

Dude, Verbena have nothing on the Deidne...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

On the other hand it does give me idea for Sons of Ether and a form of the Order of Hermes....


AlexiDrake wrote:
On the other hand it does give me idea for Sons of Ether and a form of the Order of Hermes....

Thig?

Osirion

AlexiDrake wrote:
On the other hand it does give me idea for Sons of Ether and a form of the Order of Hermes....

My greatest regret about the WoD era is getting to play so much Vampire, and so little Mage. So many of the mage orders are just fascinating, with the Sons of Ether and their two-fisted adventurer pulpy goodness pretty much ringing every bell I have.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok, I played lots of Grou and Vampire, and ran the local Mage LARP. So I do understand you, as I still steal ideas from mage for my games.

Oh, and Setites are evil just ask Haquim.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Drejk wrote:
AlexiDrake wrote:
On the other hand it does give me idea for Sons of Ether and a form of the Order of Hermes....
Thig?

Old school World of Darkness by White Wolf, especially MAGE!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Set wrote:
A game that had a magic system in which the magic-user spent three days gathering hair and spittle from their victim and fashioning an effigy and then the net result of their spell was that the person had a string of bad luck, or got sick, would probably satisfy exactly no one. :)
You hadn't played with a lot of Ars Magic or Mage The Ascension fans, had you? :P
Verbena witches still freak me out.
Dude, Verbena have nothing on the Deidne...

Different game, and the Diedne weren't very well defined, save for one particular individual on one of the best modules ever put out.


AlexiDrake wrote:
Drejk wrote:
AlexiDrake wrote:
On the other hand it does give me idea for Sons of Ether and a form of the Order of Hermes....
Thig?
Old school World of Darkness by White Wolf, especially MAGE!

House Thig. Hermetic Technomancers. Not as Numerian as Sons Of Ether, though.

Osirion

AlexiDrake wrote:
Oh, and Setites are evil just ask Haquim.

Psh. 'Cause he's such a reliable narrator...


Grim War also has spells that require month long rituals and eating paper etc just to try to banish a demon.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Set wrote:
A game that had a magic system in which the magic-user spent three days gathering hair and spittle from their victim and fashioning an effigy and then the net result of their spell was that the person had a string of bad luck, or got sick, would probably satisfy exactly no one. :)
You hadn't played with a lot of Ars Magic or Mage The Ascension fans, had you? :P
Verbena witches still freak me out.
Dude, Verbena have nothing on the Deidne...
Different game, and the Diedne weren't very well defined, save for one particular individual on one of the best modules ever put out.

True & he was more 'This is why you never want to destroy everything that a Diedne ever loved & cared about but then be silly enough to not kill him so that he cannot plot revenge'.

Even so, that was still enough that practically every Magus I ever made after that was a 'Hidden' Diedne...
I still miss playing that game.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I still miss playing that game.

Agreed!

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