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Those spells "are able" is not the same as "are". I actually see little to no times where a Paladin would be fighting a non-controlled Good Outsider, let alone a LG government fighting CG outsiders.
And all those others involve multiclassing or UMD to cast spells inherently not available to a Paladin. Even with Unsanctioned Knowledge it only worked if you saw the clarification in Ultimate...
OK, so your arguement is just because it "can" be Evil doesn't mean it is? I mean, isn't that the very same argument for being able to cast Evil spells "for the greater good"?
So, I give an example of when Good comes in conflict with Good, and you say it never happens. So how about that NG Dawnflower sect of Sarenrae, and Taldor outlawing Sarenrae from being worshipped in their borders until it was retconned? Or perhaps a struggle of Independence from a fledgling country like Nirmathas(CG) from Molthune? Molthune, while LN has their primary religions as Erastil(LG), Iomedae(LG), and Abadar(LN)... All of which support paladin orders.
For the rest, are you saying a paladin should never multiclass? Never use items that mimic spells?
I'm saying you have to choose to make the spell evil, which would require you to go up against Good Aligned outsiders, which I don't see Paladins doing much, if ever. It falls into the same thing as Protection from [alignment] spells, which are 4 different spells. Paizo apparently decided to just save on word count and just make one spell versions from now on.
Really? You bring up a hypothetical CG vs LG scenario and follow it up with Sarenrae vs Taldor like it's the same thing?
And Molthune is a warmongering nation about to restart an actual war, just because they good religions in their borders doesn't make them good guys. You can still worship Iomedae in Cheliax can't you?
I'm not saying they can't multiclass or use magic items, their code of conduct was made for them though and wasn't constantly expanded/FaQed/Errated/Updated to account for every option a player can take when it steps outside the Paladin class though.
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And until Ultimate Intrigue, that same paladin would have been able to protect himself from that summoned good creature. No questions about it. But now he can't.
Again, that's an assumption you've been operating under. Not everyone agreed with that and others (myself included) believe spells with the [Evil] descriptor, to, ya'know, be evil. Ultimate Intrigue clarified that, yes, this is correct.
The paladin can still cast the spell, given to him by his deity, on his paladin spell list, and Fall for it, with Ultimate Intrigue.
Because Paizo decided to save on word count rather than make 4 versions of the same spell. You get a spell, and then would have to CHOOSE to make it Evil, as opposed to making it Good, or Lawful, or Chaotic. Evil isn't the only form of the spell, it covers all alignments.
A good cleric in the same position cannot cast the evil version of the spell in the first place, because their spell casting class feature has alignment based restrictions. Paladin spell casting doesn't.
The fact that a good aligned cleric can't cast it should probably tell you something.
Paladin spellcasting doesn't outright state that restriction because Paladins didn't originally have access to those spells. Choosing a blank spell that has an alignment applied to when cast and then specifically choosing the evil option doesn't mean the Paladin is supposed to. And picking a niche feat, aptly named Unsanctioned Knowledge is where GM adjudication comes in. Just because theoretically by RAW reading of the feat and nothing else means you can get Infernal Healing and Animate Dead on your Paladin's spell list doesn't mean you can. Unless they come out with a FaQ that explicitly states that the feat allows a Paladin to use Evil spells, they can't.
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Anyone else noticed that template at the end of the Monster Summoner's Handbook? (Guardian Spirit)
Wondering what people think of the Summon Guardian Spirit feat in general... the 1 min/level summon duration is pretty good. (i.e. you're always summoning the same creature, and it retains its memories from previous summons, etc.)
With druids casting summon nature's ally spontaneously, I'm thinking this might be an excellent option. I mean, the spell-like abilities they gain is just badass in itself (scales up with the spell level its attuned to)
Spell Level 3: Chill touch, ill omen, protection from chaos/evil/good/law (choose one; its alignment descriptor must oppose the guardian spirit’s alignment).
Spell Level 4: Call lightning, detect thoughts, invisibility.
Spell Level 5: Cure serious wounds, dispel magic, shout.
Spell Level 6: Call lightning storm, death ward, freedom of movement.
Spell Level 7: Break enchantment, breath of life, contagious flame.
Spell Level 8: Cloak of dreams, greater heroism, sunbeam.
Spell Level 9: Greater shout, power word blind, regenerate.
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Unless they come out with a FaQ that explicitly states that the feat allows a Paladin to use Evil spells, they can't.Actually quite the opposite. A paladin can, but doing so now causes him to Fall, even if you got the spell from praying to a good deity.
Because you were never supposed to in the first place. Because it was obvious that Paladins shouldn't be able to cast evil spells.
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Sadly till we get a book/FAQ on alignment that says otherwise: they are equal acts.
DMs can houserule otherwise, but that doesn't change that by the normal rules they are equal.
By this logic, stealing candy from children and murdering those children are also equally Evil, since no explicit rule makes them otherwise.
It's a ridiculous argument.
Soooo... in other words doesn't really matter as will probably not happen? Pretty much like he said?
It won't happen often, no. It matters somewhat when it does.
Either A) They matter and thus are not as marginalized as you claim
or B) They do not matter as they are marginalized as to be practically uselss... so there is no real point.
The point is to, for example, keep Paladins from casting [Evil] spells and have others do so sparingly if they care about being Good. That seems a reasonable goal and this rule aids in it.
That's sort of the rub. There is no real metric. Yes, there is the 'minor evil' wording for evil spells tucked away. But what IS a minor evil act? Alignment is still pretty grey despite it being a real, tangible thing on Golarion.
It's something with no real definition. Just vague ideas. Which is Paizo speak for 'we will never give definites, it's the GMs job to figure it out'.
Which is okay but it leaves real rules discussion to flap in the wind. It's all opinion after the point beyond the boiler plate rules.In fact I would say despite the arguments that it is good for the game that it is so vague.
Yep. You have my total agreement here. Alignment is intentionally vague so that particular GMs and groups can work out what's right in their world on their own.
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hi, i was wondering, the best creatures (sometimes the only ones) you can summon with a SM spell are demon/devils, that is considered an evil act? because if it is so, an evil summoner is way more powerful than a good one
Arcane or Psychic? No problem Lawful Good can summon Chaotic Evil all day long.
Divine? No. No exceptions. This is hard coded into the classes themselves.
Any DM who tries to push this Divine restriction on to non-divine classes is a terrible DM.
Necromancy is also an [evil] act, incidentally.
This argument pops up frequently, but I think one of the posters had it right...it's what you do with the creature that makes it evil or not. Pathfinder has removed ALL references to casting evil spells as being evil acts.
Usually the proponents of the [evil] spells as evil acts (reflexively, without thought as to how the creatures are used) are capricious DMs who like to use alignment as a hammer against their good-aligned PCs.
After many discussions with my long-time gaming group, the idea of inherent evil does seem built into the game. i.e. it is a good act to harm evil creatures. However, other than [aligned] spells and divine casters of opposing alignments, it seems that there are plenty of spells with out [evil] descriptors that should effect an individuals alignment.
The whole school of enchantment basically takes away freewill or enslaves intelligent beings. In the majority of my games slavery is the go to for evil acts.