You would need to either tolerate it, even if you don't agree with it, or simply bow out, because PFS is simply not for you.
That's an ironic statement considering you are telling someone with a different viewpoint than you to just "deal with it, or leave".
No, it isn't. It's stating that PFS isn't a platform for bigotry, so one shouldn't engage in it there, though you can think whatever you like.
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No, it isn't. It's stating that PFS isn't a platform for bigotry
A million dead goblin babies disagree.
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No, you're saying that a person isn't welcome because they have beliefs that are different than yours.
And the bottom of the page says "don't be a jerk". So yes, they are entitled to espouse their opinion that they have a moral aversion to homosexuality in a respectful way. If your response is "you're a bigot, take a hike", then you are the one being the jerk.
If you're going to be inclusionary and say that everyone is welcome, that means EVERYONE is welcome, even the people you don't agree with. If you are offended by the presence of someone who is "homophobic", then the "don't let the door hit you in the behind" attitude applies just as equally to you.
EDIT: I'm talking to the "you" in a group sense, not one single individual.
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And the bottom of the page says "don't be a jerk". So yes, they are entitled to espouse their opinion that they have a moral aversion to homosexuality in a respectful way. If your response is "you're a bigot, take a hike", then you are the one being the jerk.
There is no respectful way to express such a "moral aversion," because such an aversion is itself profoundly immoral.
If someone espoused the opinion that they have a moral aversion to miscegenation "in a respectful way," they would be expressing bigotry. The same is the case here.
If the aversion is based on religious training, then the training was hateful and immoral.
I don't think any of this is particularly hard to understand.
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And if you're gay and someone is say they have "a moral aversion to you, you should just sit there and be polite? Smile and nod and say "Sorry to offend you, we'll be sure not to bring it up again."?
What if you're black and they're being racist? In a respectful way, whatever that means? Should you just say, "Yes, massuh. Sorry, massuh."?
What if you're a goblin and they're telling "jokes" about killing your babies? Should you just put up with it? Hell, no! You stab that bigot with a dogslicer!
Vive le Galt!
This is what I'm talking about! More lies!
Down with Paizo!
[Stabs the jeff]
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Gentle readers, for the ninetieth time or so, please take any debates about the supposed real-world morality or immorality of homosexuality, politics, exclusion or whatever to the Off-Topic forum. Thank you.
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And I think the repeated comments about racism against goblins is likewise off-topic to this thread.
And I think the repeated comments about racism against goblins is likewise off-topic to this thread.
Fine.
[Gathers the Anklebiters and returns to OTD]
I am currently playing a Chelaxian heritage Paladin of Iomedae, who is a gay man. He isn't effeminate but he also doesn't hide his sexuality. He is currently located in Varisia and is treated for the most part as normal as anyone else. (other than the occasional traditionalist chelaxian). As far as the GM is concerned the church hierarchy cares little about who I love other than that person should also be honorable and good and dutiful. He is a known quantity and a source of rumors in the town mainly because he is very good looking and the ladies of the town would like me to find a nice man :P
Unless Anklebiter can present proof that goblinocidal activity is driven by human/elf/dwarf desire to oppress goblin sexuality and prevent them from "doing it in the streets"...
Back to the topic, partially: On last session my players started asking about stance towards non-standard sexuality - homosexual pairs of either gender, eventual same sex marriage and adoption - and about women rights in surrounding lands. I GM Forgotten Realms using Pathfinder rules (hence it's only partially back to the topic) but I set somewhat similar if a bit less enlightened standards: homosexuality is generally tolerated but long-term couples are viewed as a somewhat eccentric.
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No, you're saying that a person isn't welcome because they have beliefs that are different than yours.
And the bottom of the page says "don't be a jerk". So yes, they are entitled to espouse their opinion that they have a moral aversion to homosexuality in a respectful way. If your response is "you're a bigot, take a hike", then you are the one being the jerk.
If you're going to be inclusionary and say that everyone is welcome, that means EVERYONE is welcome, even the people you don't agree with. If you are offended by the presence of someone who is "homophobic", then the "don't let the door hit you in the behind" attitude applies just as equally to you.
EDIT: I'm talking to the "you" in a group sense, not one single individual.
Finally, someone who makes sense. Don't be surprised, though, if you are villified for not joining the "If you are not wholeheartedly for homosexual behavior, you are an evil bigot." crowd that are rampant in this thread.
You would need to either tolerate it, even if you don't agree with it, or simply bow out, because PFS is simply not for you.
That's an ironic statement considering you are telling someone with a different viewpoint than you to just "deal with it, or leave".
What other choices do you have? You could complain about it, I guess, but you've already been told, repeatedly, to stop.
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Finally, someone who makes sense. Don't be surprised, though, if you are villified for not joining the "If you are not wholeheartedly for homosexual behavior, you are an evil bigot." crowd that are rampant in this thread.
For anyone who might be confused by his repeated (adorable) attempts to disguise his identity by switching to other names, this is still Cory Stafford 29 aka WotC's Nightmare.
Just in case anyone was getting the mistaken impression that more than two people share that particular viewpoint.
EDIT: And in case he tries to pull a "I just post with whatever I'm signed in as" defense, his Goresh identity has all of two posts, total, to his name, both to complain about homosexuality being tolerated here. He really is deliberately trying to make it look like more people agree with him. Like, seriously. He's sockpuppeting all up in this ish.
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CORY: TAKE IT TO THE OFF-TOPIC FORUM.
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What other choices do you have? You could complain about it, I guess, but you've already been told, repeatedly, to stop.
You would need to either tolerate it, even if you don't agree with it, or simply bow out, because PFS is simply not for you.
That's an ironic statement considering you are telling someone with a different viewpoint than you to just "deal with it, or leave".
What are you talking about? Do you think I'm someone else?
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Finally, someone who makes sense. Don't be surprised, though, if you are villified for not joining the "If you are not wholeheartedly for homosexual behavior, you are an evil bigot." crowd that are rampant in this thread.No, you're saying that a person isn't welcome because they have beliefs that are different than yours.
And the bottom of the page says "don't be a jerk". So yes, they are entitled to espouse their opinion that they have a moral aversion to homosexuality in a respectful way. If your response is "you're a bigot, take a hike", then you are the one being the jerk.
If you're going to be inclusionary and say that everyone is welcome, that means EVERYONE is welcome, even the people you don't agree with. If you are offended by the presence of someone who is "homophobic", then the "don't let the door hit you in the behind" attitude applies just as equally to you.
EDIT: I'm talking to the "you" in a group sense, not one single individual.
For the record, I'm pro-gay. I'm of the opinion that just because someone isn't, that doesn't make them a bad person.
EDIT: clarification.
I may well get chastised for asking, but do you think there's room between pro-gay and pro-straight? Speaking for myself, I never saw it as a us-or-them situation.
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For the record, I'm pro-gay. I'm of the opinion that just because someone isn't, that doesn't make them a bad person.
But if they're anti-gay and trying to get that implemented, I have no problem considering them a bad person.
And, yes, Dicey, there's plenty of range between the two, and it's possible to be pro-gay and pro-straight. Basically, it means you're pro-people (in a sexual identity sort of way).
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I don't really understand your question. Regardless, it's one for the off-topic forum. But for clarification of what I posted, I just wanted Goresh to be clear that I am not part of the "if you are not wholeheartedly for homosexual behavior" group.
As far as my opinion about how Paizo handles homosexuality in Golarion, I think they do a good job of it. It's not flagrantly in your face any more than a heterosexual relationship is in your face. The information provided allows me to provide a realistic world for my players.
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Heh, Wes and I had a fun conversation about Arshea while Champions of Purity was getting outlined, and the hijras (and the magical associations of liminal-gendered people in mythology in general) did come up. :-)
Augh...need that book. And it's so close too. Could you give any hint about wh-
I don't want to spoil anything, though.
D:
And I've often thought that in a world (such as RPG worlds) where you have the ability to magically switch someone's physical sex, it made sense that at least one deity -- assuming that his/her clergy have a counseling role similar to that often taken on by clergy in the real world -- would require that, say, the highest levels of his/her priesthood spend time physically as both sexes so that they had full understanding of both and could counsel them accordingly, or that some order of monks seeking transcendent understanding would do so in order to ensure that they had access to both men's and women's wisdom.
Suddenly reminded that Korada, who is all about transcendence, is alignment-neighbors with Arshea. Maybe there's something to mine there?
She's not an entirely positive figure(though she has her moments), but I can see some Calistrians having those expectations considering it's what their goddess does on a regular basis. Nut then I can see Arshea doing all of that with a purely positive and more healthy outlook as well.
One other comes to mind, as far as expanding one's experience and understanding, but ZK is totally not a place to go for positive.
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In the real world, many heterosexuals seem to be predisposed to find homosexuality disgusting, and it's likely that some biological factors contribute to this aversion. That's not to say that homosexuality is somehow "against nature" (not that nature provides a good basis for morality, anyway), but if humans in golarion are basically identical to humans on earth then discrimination against some kinds of same-sex relationships would probably be fairly common. That being said, some kinds of same-sex relationships that are considered homosexual in present-day america have, in other times and places, been considered perfectly ordinary. Furthermore, non-human races might not cleave to any of the general trends found in human societies at all.
For instance, considering their long history of bloody wars of attrition, I could easily imagine that dwarves might have a very "pro-natalist" sort of culture. Young dwarves might be free to experiment, but the survival of the race depends on them eventually settling down and dutifully producing and raising 2.5 new dwarves. On the other hand, as in many real-world warrior cultures, two dwarves of the same sex who have fought together might share a level of intimacy and affection far beyond what modern americans might consider normal.
Elves, on the other hand, don't seem to be particularly preoccupied with reproduction, which makes some sense considering their life-spans. Furthermore, it's relatively common for elves to form romantic relationships with humans (an entirely different *species*), so we can presume that they're pretty open-minded about the whole thing. Elves probably don't view same-sex and opposite-sex couples as meaningfully different from eachother, and might even have trouble understanding the hang-ups of other races. That being said, all of their romances are probably less physical than those of the shorter-lived races; I wouldn't be surprised if they had a lot of jokes about humans thinking with the wrong head and breeding like rabbits.
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You make a good point... I'm sure I've read the argument that people have a "built-in" aversion to homosexual behavior (somewhere...), but considering the number of different ways that people have categorized sexual relations, it might make more sense that it's just a reaction to "out-group" behavior. On the other hand, it might be something similar to incest aversion; there may be a biological predisposition against reproductively counterproductive behaviors, but which behaviors are considered "bad" would vary greatly based on cultural factors.
TanithT, have you read Elizabeth A. Lynne's stuff? TOTALLY WORTH IT!!
In the real world, many heterosexuals seem to be predisposed to find homosexuality disgusting, and it's likely that some biological factors contribute to this aversion.To the best of my knowledge and understanding of evolutionary biology, it seems highly unlikely that there is a biological basis for aversion specifically based on sexual orientation.
I vaguely recall someone doing research on brain scans showing disgust versus attraction, and showing various pictures of different genders to test subjects of varying gender and sexual orientation. There was in some groups but not others an induction of disgust, rather than just non-attraction. But I don't remember the specifics of the study, or if the methodology was good or otherwise.
But it wasn't aversion of anyone else's sexual orientation, but rather the individual's conception of a specific gender and presumably their own reaction to sexualized images of that gender presented to them.
But this sort of thing is difficult to quantify as being caused by biological mechanisms, rather than as a learned response from cultural frame of reference. I'd have to look back at the study (which I have not read).
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I... I really don't understand something.
I simply can't make sense of it.
Sex is a private matter, right? When I think about it, and in the most inclusive way possible, the people whose sexuality actually matter to me: my parents, obviously. Those I am intimately involved with. My exes mattered at one point. Those I have had crushes on or will in the future. One day I expect it will matter to me what my kids want, in the sense of grandkids.
Why, oh why, would the sexual preferences of precisely anyone else matter to me?
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Agreeing with Gnoll, I definitely see the dwarves as being more, whatever the proper word is for a culture that highly encourages monogamous heterosexual relationships that produces multiple offspring.
I think gnomes, with their first-world connections and insatiable desire for new experiences, would be open to pretty much any form of sexuality or sexual activity. Don't knock it till you try it, a dozen different ways.
Halfings, probably mirror the human culture around them, as that's generally what they do.
Orc, for men, anything is fine, as long as you are the dominate. Being taking a 'female' role makes you a low a female. Not sure how this would work out for the women. Dominate with women makes you top dog, of the underdogs?
For less common races, not sure. Wonder how kitsune, and other shapeshifters, feel about sexual activity in non-base forms? Not trying to get off topic, just wondering. Is it normal to have sex as foxes, is it taboo, or is it just... weird.
Going along with what others have said, I can definitely see certain individuals, followers of Arshea and Shelyn in particular, changing sex/gender to gain greater understanding. I know I would. If female me's hair turned out like my sisters' I'd be thrilled, cause it is fabulous.
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I... I really don't understand something.
I simply can't make sense of it.
Sex is a private matter, right? When I think about it, and in the most inclusive way possible, the people whose sexuality actually matter to me: my parents, obviously. Those I am intimately involved with. My exes mattered at one point. Those I have had crushes on or will in the future. One day I expect it will matter to me what my kids want, in the sense of grandkids.
Why, oh why, would the sexual preferences of precisely anyone else matter to me?
No reason, really. However, many great stories (not to mention most less than great ones) include an element of romance. If Paizo chooses to tell stories in which love blossoms between two men or two women, or in which the love between same-sex partners is a source of motivation for the characters, I don't see why anybody should be offended.
They're not writing graphic gay porn scenes, they're just saying that Tom lives with Harry and would give his last breath to defend him (or something like that; I'm not very familiar with the actual characters involved :P). The 40 or so pages of argument leading up to this point, as far as I can tell, are the result of some people crying foul over what would be a pretty benign character detail if one of the NPCs in question had (or didn't have, as the case may be) breasts.
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The only thing that fascinates me is the apparent margin of appreciation for bigotry over here. In our (godless sodomite communist etc.) lands, there would be at least one turbo-perma-ban here and at least one person would be talking about contacting the authorities in order prosecute the offender on charges of hate speech.
Oh wait, it's United States, they don't know what hate speech is.
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Halfings, probably mirror the human culture around them, as that's generally what they do.
This is true, but don't forget that halflings are, in general, charismatic and fearless. If an otherwise typical halfling felt an attraction that the local culture considered sinful or unnatural, I don't think it would be in their nature to stay "in the closet." In fact, to paraphrase a great man, they might not even realize that there is a closet.
Orc, for men, anything is fine, as long as you are the dominate. Being taking a 'female' role makes you a low a female. Not sure how this would work out for the women. Dominate with women makes you top dog, of the underdogs?
I tend to agree; as in the Roman empire, with orcs it's probably all about who's on top. As for women, it would probably be an uphill battle for a female orc trying to take on a dominant role in the sexual politics of the tribe. If she dominates another female, she's probably crazy and/or perverted. If she tries to dominate a male, she's dangerous, and likely to meet a bad end unless she can really hold her own in a fight. Of course, the male involved could easily find himself in an even worse position.
Going along with what others have said, I can definitely see certain individuals, followers of Arshea and Shelyn in particular, changing sex/gender to gain greater understanding. I know I would. If female me's hair turned out like my sisters' I'd be thrilled, cause it is fabulous.
I could easily see that; a lot of real world spiritual systems involve holy people who are considered to be of a third or variable gender. Of course, when it comes to the evil deities, more... extreme practices may be common. Ever heard of the Galli of ancient Rome? Considering the cult of Lamashtu's obsession with maternity and celebration of scars, it's not hard to imagine her male clerics performing similar rites... potentially more than once, depending on what level of magic they have access to. Then, of course, there's the Kuthites, but it's probably best not to imagine the kind of rites they practice at all...
[Peeks back in]
[Peeks back in]
I will lend you a little goblin credibility, but only if you're polite in front of other goblins. :P
[Kisses Dicey]
Gay goblins do it in the street!
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Going along with what others have said, I can definitely see certain individuals, followers of Arshea and Shelyn in particular, changing sex/gender to gain greater understanding. I know I would. If female me's hair turned out like my sisters' I'd be thrilled, cause it is fabulous.
Keep in mind that some women in both Golarion and throughout RL Earth's history have rocked the bald look and are/were considered both beautiful and the "norm". Ancient Egypt(and probably Osirion), several African cultures, the Shoanti, a lot of angels...
One great thing a richly detailed fantasy setting can do is help expand our definitions and personal standards of beauty snd sometimes to remind us of the many standards of beauty in the real world we may have missed. :)
Then again I grew up with "Mohawk" Storm, so my standards were probably skewed a bit outside the mainstream norm pretty early on. ;)
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Going along with what others have said, I can definitely see certain individuals, followers of Arshea and Shelyn in particular, changing sex/gender to gain greater understanding. I know I would. If female me's hair turned out like my sisters' I'd be thrilled, cause it is fabulous.
Keep in mind that some women in both Golarion and throughout RL Earth's history have rocked the bald look and are/were considered both beautiful and the "norm". Ancient Egypt(and probably Osirion), several African cultures, the Shoanti, a lot of angels...
One great thing a richly detailed fantasy setting can do is help expand our definitions and personal standards of beauty snd sometimes to remind us of the many standards of beauty in the real world we may have missed. :)
Then again I grew up with "Mohawk" Storm, so my standards were probably a bit outside the mainstream norm pretty early on. ;)
Hmm... come to think of it, I suppose high class women in Taldor (and possibly Cheliax as well) would tend to keep their hair shaved or very short, since they wouldn't want it to interfere with the elaborate wigs they're said to fancy. Paints a somewhat different mental image of the adventuring noblewoman...
Psylocke. So pretty, so kind, so tough... And what a romance! Cypher falls head over heels in love with her despite a ten or twenty year age difference. She is quite attracted to him as well. Then he dies. She is replaced by asian ninja girl with huge bazongas. Ahhhh, young love.