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Homosexuality in Golarion


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Asphere wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why creating gay NPCs and people having abortions in Golarion is pushing a political agenda? Both gays and abortions have been around in human history for a long time (both referenced in classical literature as far back as Aristotle). Is every piece of classical literature that mentions homosexuality from ancient Greece to Shakespeare pushing a political agenda or being PC? It is up to you to ignore it, react badly in game, or react positively in game.

Ok, I'm Greek and have dealt with the Greek jokes my whole life. Since you referenced classical Greece I'll throw my 2 copper in on the topic.

The ancient Greeks considered homosexual relationships among equals to be problematic. The predominant man was considered masculine while the one playing the female role was considered inferior. Everything gets skewed b/c we look at the subject through modern eyes not ancient ones.
Pedarasty was something the upper class of society practiced.
Here is an excerpt I found.....

In Plutarch's Dialogue on Love[12], he has Daphnaeus disparage "union contrary to nature with males" (he para physin homilia pros arrenas), as contrasted to "the love between men and women," which is characterized as "natural" (te physei). A few sentences later, Daphnaeus complains that those who "consort with males" willingly are guilty of "weakness and effeminacy," because "contrary to nature (para physin)," they "allow themselves in Plato's words 'to be covered and mounted like cattle'" (Dialogue on Love 751C, E). However, he also wrote that "The noble lover of beauty engages in love wherever he sees excellence and splendid natural endowment without regard for any difference in physiological detail"[13], and which many use to endorse homosexuality.

Anyway, its an interesting topic. So I guess what I want to say without getting into any trouble is that it was never a real problem with anyone in Ancient Greece, they all accepted that homosexuality existed but homosexuals didn't Marry in their tradition sense of natural union.

HERE IT COMES.........Its only when the sacrement of Marriage comes into play that we see problems. Like I said, when researching and understanding the ancients I don't peer through the lense of Judeo/Christian values. PLEASE do not think I'm starting a debate about Marriage. PLEASE, I respect all you guys/gals on the boards.

(Rolling my Diplomacy)!!!!!

Qadira

You rolled well enough for me Aretas. Everyone has their own views after all.

I mean I don't think Jessica Alba should be allowed to wear clothes, not everyone agrees with me. ;)


You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?


Dinkster the Dinkmeister wrote:
It is strange or maybe I am just insensitive, but in my 30+ years of gaming, homosexuality or sexuality was never a really big part of our campaigns.... We rolled characters, went on epic adventures and that was it..There was very little or no relationship drama added..It was like "They were together" and that was as far as it went if that...We were more focused on kicking ass and taking names...

Yeah thats about sums up my experience too.

Qadira

On a side note we just had Cauldrons first gay marriage in our SCAP game. Corystan married Cora Lathenmire much to peoples shock and joy.

My description of the ceremony, done in accordance to their religious beliefs, left my wife in tears. Very proud of myself for that response. :)


gang wrote:
ewan cummins 325 wrote:

It is still a very poor marketing move, IMO. If that sort of thing becomes common, I will no longer buy Paizo products. Others have also expressed concerns about this political content.

Everything is political. It would be equally political to deliberately NOT include homosexuals or other minorities.

I wish it was not political. Deliberately excluding other races I get. I'm not feeling it with homosexuality. Its like sexual affirmative action (chuckle) Do you know what I mean?

Slightly off topic:
What do you say in regards to portraying the ancient Greek pantheon as diverse as Humanity? Not to say the "Gods" could take any form they wanted but the ancient Greeks portrayed them in their image.


Gorbacz wrote:
The Catholic Church's exorcists would like to have a word with you about devil possession as a real world topic.

I'm interested & on the fence. Never seen it, then again there is a lot I haven't seen!

Contributor

Aretas wrote:

I don't want to get into a discussion between Human beings and animal Homosexuality. I believe its comparing apples to oranges. Please respect my opinion. I respect yours.

Sure homosexuality existed in midevil Europe, so did Asians, Blacks, Arabs, ect..ect..But in large party its a White, Lord of the Rings style setting. Yes the game has changed with all the diverse campaign settings but I believe I'm not alone to assume that the vast majority of people playing play in that fantasy midevil setting.

So, Lord of the Rings question then, how many members of the Fellowship of the Ring were women? What percentage?

What percentage of gamers these days are women? Is that number at least somewhat larger than the percentage of women in the original nine members of the Fellowship? So why not model a gaming world that takes into account some of these new demographics?

Ditto with race, sexual preference, and so on. I'd personally rather not have to speculate about how many of the dwarves in the Hobbit were actually bearded female dwarves and/or male dwarves but gay couples. It actually saves a great deal of trouble to have a world with both female dwarves and openly gay dwarves and leave it at that.

And as for the actual middle ages and fantasy therein, I'd suggest going and checking Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales, paying special attention to the prologue and Chaucer's description of the Pardoner.

Silver Crusade

Here's a quesiton, is there anywhere in Galarion where homosexuality is viewed the same way as it was in Greece and the Viking lands.
You were only "gay" if you took it. The topper wasn't gay in everyone's minds, just the man who took it.


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

Aretas, my issue with your argument is that art imitates life. You want a fantasy RPG without real life issues? Well, that can't be done. For example, feminism. No matter how you construct things in your fantasy world, your world has just taken a stance on the real world issue of women's rights. You cannot avoid it in any way.

Furthermore, real life is where all the inspiration comes from. If you refuse to bring in real life issues, what can you bring in?

Kelsey I agree with you. Everyone playing the game should develop, toss it, turn it any way they wish. I just do not think Paizo should do it for me.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?

Well like they say... "The L_rd Celts those who Celt themselves." :)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:

Here's a quesiton, is there anywhere in Galarion where homosexuality is viewed the same way as it was in Greece and the Viking lands.

You were only "gay" if you took it. The topper wasn't gay in everyone's minds, just the man who took it.

It's my recollection that's how it is with the Pashtun too.

Qadira

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Aretas wrote:

I don't want to get into a discussion between Human beings and animal Homosexuality. I believe its comparing apples to oranges. Please respect my opinion. I respect yours.

Sure homosexuality existed in midevil Europe, so did Asians, Blacks, Arabs, ect..ect..But in large party its a White, Lord of the Rings style setting. Yes the game has changed with all the diverse campaign settings but I believe I'm not alone to assume that the vast majority of people playing play in that fantasy midevil setting.

So, Lord of the Rings question then, how many members of the Fellowship of the Ring were women? What percentage?

What percentage of gamers these days are women? Is that number at least somewhat larger than the percentage of women in the original nine members of the Fellowship? So why not model a gaming world that takes into account some of these new demographics?

Ditto with race, sexual preference, and so on. I'd personally rather not have to speculate about how many of the dwarves in the Hobbit were actually bearded female dwarves and/or male dwarves but gay couples. It actually saves a great deal of trouble to have a world with both female dwarves and openly gay dwarves and leave it at that.

And as for the actual middle ages and fantasy therein, I'd suggest going and checking Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales, paying special attention to the prologue and Chaucer's description of the Pardoner.

I tend to think that if Tolkien had written it today Legolas and Gimli would be lovers, that may be just Orlando Blooms impression in my head though, and Aragorn might be replaced with the elf chick who's name just fluttered out of my head like a moth from a dusty attic.

I don't think the story would be changed that much TBH.


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Quote:
Sure homosexuality existed in midevil Europe, so did Asians, Blacks, Arabs, ect..ect..But in large party its a White, Lord of the Rings style setting. Yes the game has changed with all the diverse campaign settings but I believe I'm not alone to assume that the vast majority of people playing play in that fantasy midevil setting.
What do you base this on? Surely not ogres. I personally use a fantasy analogue of North America with earlier colonization and colonists from both Europe and Asia. I love this setting, and I'd never want to excise the Native Americans, Asians, or Mesoamericans from it. That puts me outside your vast majority.

Thats cool that you have a Homebrew world. My world is like Oerth in Greyhawk, very Tolkien. Do you have a piece on this North American fantasy setting? I'd like to read it!

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:
Asphere wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why creating gay NPCs and people having abortions in Golarion is pushing a political agenda? Both gays and abortions have been around in human history for a long time (both referenced in classical literature as far back as Aristotle). Is every piece of classical literature that mentions homosexuality from ancient Greece to Shakespeare pushing a political agenda or being PC? It is up to you to ignore it, react badly in game, or react positively in game.

Ok, I'm Greek and have dealt with the Greek jokes my whole life. Since you referenced classical Greece I'll throw my 2 copper in on the topic.

The ancient Greeks considered homosexual relationships among equals to be problematic. The predominant man was considered masculine while the one playing the female role was considered inferior. Everything gets skewed b/c we look at the subject through modern eyes not ancient ones.
Pedarasty was something the upper class of society practiced.
Here is an excerpt I found.....

In Plutarch's Dialogue on Love[12], he has Daphnaeus disparage "union contrary to nature with males" (he para physin homilia pros arrenas), as contrasted to "the love between men and women," which is characterized as "natural" (te physei). A few sentences later, Daphnaeus complains that those who "consort with males" willingly are guilty of "weakness and effeminacy," because "contrary to nature (para physin)," they "allow themselves in Plato's words 'to be covered and mounted like cattle'" (Dialogue on Love 751C, E). However, he also wrote that "The noble lover of beauty engages in love wherever he sees excellence and splendid natural endowment without regard for any difference in physiological detail"[13], and which many use to endorse homosexuality.

Anyway, its an interesting topic. So I guess what I want to say without getting into any trouble is that it was never a real problem with anyone in Ancient Greece, they all accepted that homosexuality existed but...

How does this address anything? My point was that postulating that gays exist in a fictional setting is not pushing a political agenda. Saying that Bill the dwarf and Bob the halfling might be shagging is not pushing a political agenda. Ancient Greeks were not pushing political agendas by noting in classic literature that homosexuality existed in their societies just as Pathfinder is not pushing an agenda...they are just saying that there are homosexuals in their campaign setting. If the homosexual reference formed some sort of story arc that forced players to experience what it is like to be oppressed because of one's sexual orientation and left them feeling that they learned something...that would be a pushing a political agenda.


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?

Thats your dept Miss MacAilbert, judging from your last name I'm assuming you know a little about the Celts. I'll look into it myself.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wait, wait, wait, Legolas and Gimli aren't lovers? ;)

To be honest, I think that LotR was surprising in that all the main women had surprisingly strong roles, for its time. They don't have main roles, but I mean... Eowyn kills the Witch-King, with the line, "I am no man!". Arwen's introduction is her basically telling Aragorn to bugger off because she's a better horse rider than he is, and then making the river come alive at her command. Galadriel is downright scary at times.


Aretas wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

Aretas, my issue with your argument is that art imitates life. You want a fantasy RPG without real life issues? Well, that can't be done. For example, feminism. No matter how you construct things in your fantasy world, your world has just taken a stance on the real world issue of women's rights. You cannot avoid it in any way.

Furthermore, real life is where all the inspiration comes from. If you refuse to bring in real life issues, what can you bring in?

Kelsey I agree with you. Everyone playing the game should develop, toss it, turn it any way they wish. I just do not think Paizo should do it for me.

The problem there is that they can't avoid doing that without avoiding making a campaign setting completely.


Aretas wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Quote:
Sure homosexuality existed in midevil Europe, so did Asians, Blacks, Arabs, ect..ect..But in large party its a White, Lord of the Rings style setting. Yes the game has changed with all the diverse campaign settings but I believe I'm not alone to assume that the vast majority of people playing play in that fantasy midevil setting.
What do you base this on? Surely not ogres. I personally use a fantasy analogue of North America with earlier colonization and colonists from both Europe and Asia. I love this setting, and I'd never want to excise the Native Americans, Asians, or Mesoamericans from it. That puts me outside your vast majority.
Thats cool that you have a Homebrew world. My world is like Oerth in Greyhawk, very Tolkien. Do you have a piece on this North American fantasy setting? I'd like to read it!

I have a wiki, but there is very little about them so far. That will be rectified, but it'll take time.

Qadira

Alice Margatroid wrote:

Wait, wait, wait, Legolas and Gimli aren't lovers? ;)

To be honest, I think that LotR was surprising in that all the main women had surprisingly strong roles, for its time. They don't have main roles, but I mean... Eowyn kills the Witch-King, with the line, "I am no man!". Arwen's introduction is her basically telling Aragorn to bugger off because she's a better horse rider than he is, and then making the river come alive at her command. Galadriel is downright scary at times.

I am reminded of something a gamer once said at my table that I now can see Gimli saying about Legolas.

Spoiler:
Elves. They're just B*** J**s with handlebars. It's them ears ya see.


Asphere wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Asphere wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why creating gay NPCs and people having abortions in Golarion is pushing a political agenda? Both gays and abortions have been around in human history for a long time (both referenced in classical literature as far back as Aristotle). Is every piece of classical literature that mentions homosexuality from ancient Greece to Shakespeare pushing a political agenda or being PC? It is up to you to ignore it, react badly in game, or react positively in game.

Ok, I'm Greek and have dealt with the Greek jokes my whole life. Since you referenced classical Greece I'll throw my 2 copper in on the topic.

The ancient Greeks considered homosexual relationships among equals to be problematic. The predominant man was considered masculine while the one playing the female role was considered inferior. Everything gets skewed b/c we look at the subject through modern eyes not ancient ones.
Pedarasty was something the upper class of society practiced.
Here is an excerpt I found.....

In Plutarch's Dialogue on Love[12], he has Daphnaeus disparage "union contrary to nature with males" (he para physin homilia pros arrenas), as contrasted to "the love between men and women," which is characterized as "natural" (te physei). A few sentences later, Daphnaeus complains that those who "consort with males" willingly are guilty of "weakness and effeminacy," because "contrary to nature (para physin)," they "allow themselves in Plato's words 'to be covered and mounted like cattle'" (Dialogue on Love 751C, E). However, he also wrote that "The noble lover of beauty engages in love wherever he sees excellence and splendid natural endowment without regard for any difference in physiological detail"[13], and which many use to endorse homosexuality.

Anyway, its an interesting topic. So I guess what I want to say without getting into any trouble is that it was never a real problem with anyone in Ancient Greece, they all accepted that homosexuality

...

I was responding to your question about "every piece of classical literature pushing a political agenda".

Shadow Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:
gang wrote:
ewan cummins 325 wrote:

It is still a very poor marketing move, IMO. If that sort of thing becomes common, I will no longer buy Paizo products. Others have also expressed concerns about this political content.

Everything is political. It would be equally political to deliberately NOT include homosexuals or other minorities.

I wish it was not political. Deliberately excluding other races I get. I'm not feeling it with homosexuality. Its like sexual affirmative action (chuckle) Do you know what I mean?

Slightly off topic:
What do you say in regards to portraying the ancient Greek pantheon as diverse as Humanity? Not to say the "Gods" could take any form they wanted but the ancient Greeks portrayed them in their image.

You are not feeling what with homosexuality? That they are an oppressed minority? We have children in our society that commit suicide because of constant bullying from homophobes at school. We have gay folks getting murdered for being gay. We have rights not available to gay people that are available to straight people for absolutely no logical reason. Most people seem to think that calling a gay person a "F*G" to their face is okay.

You might say that those children chose to be gay. They chose to be socially ostracized and driven to suicide. As a heterosexual male I know this has to be false because I could never choose, under any sort of free association, to do anything sexual with another man. I am always amazed when someone says that gays choose to be gay and use that absurd argument to justify their belief that gays are not an oppressed minority. Perhaps if one believes that people choose to be gay they should start questioning their own sexuality.


Aretas wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?
Thats your dept Miss MacAilbert, judging from your last name I'm assuming you know a little about the Celts. I'll look into it myself.

It's safe to say, based on Roman accounts, that certain tribes were very, very open to it, but it's difficult to say how much so and which geographic areas. That said, their warriors used to offer themselves to Romans. That says something about them and homosexuality.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

Wait, wait, wait, Legolas and Gimli aren't lovers? ;)

To be honest, I think that LotR was surprising in that all the main women had surprisingly strong roles, for its time. They don't have main roles, but I mean... Eowyn kills the Witch-King, with the line, "I am no man!". Arwen's introduction is her basically telling Aragorn to bugger off because she's a better horse rider than he is, and then making the river come alive at her command. Galadriel is downright scary at times.

Just for reference, that was only Arwen in the movie. In the books it was Glorfindel.

Agreed on Eowyn and Galadriel though.

There is no evidence in all the extensive published notes and drafts that homosexuality was ever considered for any of the characters. There's no way to say what Tolkien would have written if he was writing it today, since he'd have grown up in a different culture and be writing a different book in a different time. There's no evidence it was an intentional subtext he was hiding because it wouldn't have been acceptable then.

Qadira

thejeff wrote:
Alice Margatroid wrote:

Wait, wait, wait, Legolas and Gimli aren't lovers? ;)

To be honest, I think that LotR was surprising in that all the main women had surprisingly strong roles, for its time. They don't have main roles, but I mean... Eowyn kills the Witch-King, with the line, "I am no man!". Arwen's introduction is her basically telling Aragorn to bugger off because she's a better horse rider than he is, and then making the river come alive at her command. Galadriel is downright scary at times.

Just for reference, that was only Arwen in the movie. In the books it was Glorfindel.

Agreed on Eowyn and Galadriel though.

There is no evidence in all the extensive published notes and drafts that homosexuality was ever considered for any of the characters. There's no way to say what Tolkien would have written if he was writing it today, since he'd have grown up in a different culture and be writing a different book in a different time. There's no evidence it was an intentional subtext he was hiding because it wouldn't have been acceptable then.

Just for the record, I wasn't implying that he was "closeting gay characters" with my supposition of what the stories would hold today. Only postulating that he might have since he did create such rich and varying characters, and such characters as I said would be more common place in today's literature than in his time.

That and I thought a little levity would be well received after this mornings events.
;)


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?

elaborate on this please. I am quite well informed on Celtic culture, myth, and history but this must be something I missed.


Carl Cascone wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?
elaborate on this please. I am quite well informed on Celtic culture, myth, and history but this must be something I missed.

I've read accounts of Celtic warriors offering themselves up for sex. Granted, these accounts are Roman, but still. Due to the nature of Celtic history I doubt we'll find anything concrete, but there are suggestions.


Asphere wrote:
Aretas wrote:
gang wrote:
ewan cummins 325 wrote:

It is still a very poor marketing move, IMO. If that sort of thing becomes common, I will no longer buy Paizo products. Others have also expressed concerns about this political content.

Everything is political. It would be equally political to deliberately NOT include homosexuals or other minorities.

I wish it was not political. Deliberately excluding other races I get. I'm not feeling it with homosexuality. Its like sexual affirmative action (chuckle) Do you know what I mean?

Slightly off topic:
What do you say in regards to portraying the ancient Greek pantheon as diverse as Humanity? Not to say the "Gods" could take any form they wanted but the ancient Greeks portrayed them in their image.

You are not feeling what with homosexuality? That they are an oppressed minority? We have children in our society that commit suicide because of constant bullying from homophobes at school. We have gay folks getting murdered for being gay. We have rights not available to gay people that are available to straight people for absolutely no logical reason. Most people seem to think that calling a gay person a "F*G" to their face is okay.

You might say that those children chose to be gay. They chose to be socially ostracized and driven to suicide. As a heterosexual male I know this has to be false because I could never choose, under any sort of free association, to do anything sexual with another man. I am always amazed when someone says that gays choose to be gay and use that absurd argument to justify their belief that gays are not an oppressed minority. Perhaps if one believes that people choose to be gay they should start questioning their own sexuality.

Thats terrible. I can't comment on those incidents b/c I'm not a Sociologist or an expert on suicide rates or teenage bullying.

(I remember the wisdom of the time years ago was that playing D&D increased your risk of suicide) That was false....ANYWAY!

You give all these incidents but fail to site how rare and extreme they are. I live in Chicago and really do not see any of the hate your ranting about. The most recent incidents of violence against the gay community was attributed to a gang of Trannys flexing their muscle.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/friend-of-boystown-stabbing-victim-s ays-attack-not-isolated-incident/

The article doesn't say so but thats what the cops have leaked from last summer.

Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.


Quote:
Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

Homosexual couples may not have the things on this list.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:
Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

What about "straight only" high school proms? If that's not oppression of a minority, what precisely is it?

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Aretas wrote:

You give all these incidents but fail to site how rare and extreme they are. I live in Chicago and really do not see any of the hate your ranting about. The most recent incidents of violence against the gay community was attributed to a gang of Trannys flexing their muscle.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/friend-of-boystown-stabbing-victim-s ays-attack-not-isolated-incident/

The article doesn't say so but thats what the cops have leaked from last summer.

Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

You know, there's a bit more to the modern world than just Chicago. Or United States.

You might also think twice before calling people "trannys", I do have a long list of derogatory terms for Christians, Americans and American Christians and I'm kind of itching to let it go. :)


Gorbacz wrote:
You know, there's a bit more to the modern world than just Chicago. Or United States.

This is not widely known, however.

Qadira

Gorbacz wrote:
Aretas wrote:

You give all these incidents but fail to site how rare and extreme they are. I live in Chicago and really do not see any of the hate your ranting about. The most recent incidents of violence against the gay community was attributed to a gang of Trannys flexing their muscle.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/friend-of-boystown-stabbing-victim-s ays-attack-not-isolated-incident/

The article doesn't say so but thats what the cops have leaked from last summer.

Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

You know, there's a bit more to the modern world than just Chicago. Or United States.

You might also think twice before calling people "trannys", I do have a long list of derogatory terms for Christians, Americans and American Christians and I'm kind of itching to let it go. :)

Yes but that would be like using a shotgun to deal with a house mouse.

Not every American or Christian agrees with such views. :/


Gorbacz wrote:
You might also think twice before calling people "trannys", I do have a long list of derogatory terms for Christians, Americans and American Christians and I'm kind of itching to let it go. :)

samhammondmaclay@gmail.com

I want to hear them all.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Moorluck wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Aretas wrote:

You give all these incidents but fail to site how rare and extreme they are. I live in Chicago and really do not see any of the hate your ranting about. The most recent incidents of violence against the gay community was attributed to a gang of Trannys flexing their muscle.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/friend-of-boystown-stabbing-victim-s ays-attack-not-isolated-incident/

The article doesn't say so but thats what the cops have leaked from last summer.

Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

You know, there's a bit more to the modern world than just Chicago. Or United States.

You might also think twice before calling people "trannys", I do have a long list of derogatory terms for Christians, Americans and American Christians and I'm kind of itching to let it go. :)

Yes but that would be like using a shotgun to deal with a house mouse.

Not every American or Christian agrees with such views. :/

But aren't shotguns the default way of dealing with rodents in the US? Or so was I told. ;-)

Qadira

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

What about "straight only" high school proms? If that's not oppression of a minority, what precisely is it?

Ooh ooh! I got this one.

From a fathers point of view. If any of my three children were gay, hell they're young it may happen <shrug>, and a school banned them from prom...

Spoiler:
I'd rip the f&#+ing spleen, heart, and spine out of every school board douche I could get my hands on for causing that sort of humiliation, pain, and heartache to my kid.

Qadira

Gorbacz wrote:
Moorluck wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Aretas wrote:

You give all these incidents but fail to site how rare and extreme they are. I live in Chicago and really do not see any of the hate your ranting about. The most recent incidents of violence against the gay community was attributed to a gang of Trannys flexing their muscle.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/friend-of-boystown-stabbing-victim-s ays-attack-not-isolated-incident/

The article doesn't say so but thats what the cops have leaked from last summer.

Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

You know, there's a bit more to the modern world than just Chicago. Or United States.

You might also think twice before calling people "trannys", I do have a long list of derogatory terms for Christians, Americans and American Christians and I'm kind of itching to let it go. :)

Yes but that would be like using a shotgun to deal with a house mouse.

Not every American or Christian agrees with such views. :/
But aren't shotguns the default way of dealing with rodents in the US? Or so was I told. ;-)

Naw man, I always used a .22 revolver loaded with ratshot on the farm.

I save the shotgun for soda cans... they really peeve me off! :P


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Carl Cascone wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?
elaborate on this please. I am quite well informed on Celtic culture, myth, and history but this must be something I missed.
I've read accounts of Celtic warriors offering themselves up for sex. Granted, these accounts are Roman, but still. Due to the nature of Celtic history I doubt we'll find anything concrete, but there are suggestions.

Being Roman account it makes that completly unrealiable. Romans had a long history of using slander about sexual practices as a political tool. As mentioned in some posts before they had very strong notions of linking penetration with manlines, domination and being penetrated as feminine and inferior trait. Their historians had vital interest in describing conquered people as, according to Roman customs, inferior to Roman people and thus justification of their conquest. I don't say that it is false, only that it is very unrealiable source, impossible to verify.


Drejk wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Carl Cascone wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
You have a point with Greco/Roman culture, but what about the Celts?
elaborate on this please. I am quite well informed on Celtic culture, myth, and history but this must be something I missed.
I've read accounts of Celtic warriors offering themselves up for sex. Granted, these accounts are Roman, but still. Due to the nature of Celtic history I doubt we'll find anything concrete, but there are suggestions.
Being Roman account it makes that completly unrealiable. Romans had a long history of using slander about sexual practices as a political tool. As mentioned in some posts before they had very strong notions of linking penetration with manlines, domination and being penetrated as feminine and inferior trait. Their historians had vital interest in describing conquered people as, according to Roman customs, inferior to Roman people and thus justification of their conquest. I don't say that it is false, only that it is very unrealiable source, impossible to verify.

That's why I made the "granted, these are Roman" comment. I don't disbelieve it, but I don't think we'll find much, if any, concrete proof.


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
That's why I made the "granted, these are Roman" comment. I don't disbelieve it, but I don't think we'll find much, if any, concrete proof.

The only possible solution at the momemnt I can think of at the moment would be archeological evidence of Celtic art. Except, if my memory serves me right, Celts avoided antropomorphic representations and focused on geomethrical or plant motiffs. Ok, we are stuck forever without answer on that matter.

Contributor

Gorbacz wrote:
But aren't shotguns the default way of dealing with rodents in the US? Or so was I told. ;-)

Only in old Ma & Pa Kettle movies.

Modern Americans, however, do use handguns to kill mice, leading to Rube-Goldbergesque machinations of Justice or at at least Poetic Irony.


I chose to make a Black Dragon who is male and gay a regular feature in my campaign. He's of the Camp Gay variety ~ which means that you know he is in game. He's an NPC Adult Black Dragon designed for Low Level party encounters.

I DM him for laughs.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

What about "straight only" high school proms? If that's not oppression of a minority, what precisely is it?

. Let's agree to disagree, thanks!


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

What about "straight only" high school proms? If that's not oppression of a minority, what precisely is it?

. Not to bicker but

Highschool kids at a prom are minors Not consenting adults.


Aretas wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

What about "straight only" high school proms? If that's not oppression of a minority, what precisely is it?

. Not to bicker but

Highschool kids at a prom are minors Not consenting adults.

And what does that have to do with anything? That means the school should be able to decide who they can go on a date with?

No one is saying they're going to have sex at the prom. And that's the only context I've seen for "consenting adult".

Silver Crusade

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Aretas wrote:

Thats terrible. I can't comment on those incidents b/c I'm not a Sociologist or an expert on suicide rates or teenage bullying. (I remember the wisdom of the time years ago was that playing D&D increased your risk of suicide) That was false....ANYWAY!

You give all these incidents but fail to site how rare and extreme they are. I live in Chicago and really do not see any of the hate your ranting about. The most recent incidents of violence against the gay community was attributed to a gang of Trannys flexing their muscle.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/friend-of-boystown-stabbing-victim-s ays-attack-not-isolated-incident/

The article doesn't say so but thats what the cops have leaked from last summer.

Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

I recommend educating yourself, then. Get out of your comfort zone and do a little web research.

Maybe talk to a real live gay person and find out about their experiences.


Thank you, I'll do that. You can do the same so one day we can have a conversation. Goodnight sir.

Qadira

One quick way to educate yourself is to open ones mind to other folks life experience. Especially when dealing with a topic they themselves have dealt with first hand.

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I realize my post came across as somewhat condescending, and I apologize if it did, Aretas.

To elaborate on my point: I can't help but think that if you spoke with any gay person, you would have difficulty making the factual claims you have been making. I make a point to interact and get to know as many people as possible who are different from me: different races, different religions, different national origins, different sexual orientations. One cannot fully grasp what someone else's life is like based on articles, statistics, or web searches.

If you are looking for statistics on gay discrimination, you won't find them. Why? Because no one is keeping track. They don't exist.

If your response to me is suggesting I should educate myself on some other group - Christians perhaps, or people with a conservative mindset - I have, as many people on these very boards can attest. I am actually quite well-versed in Christian teaching, and would never begrudge another person their views.

Your posts, however, which contain statements of fact that reveal to me that you don't know all that much about the lives or concerns of gay people, rub me the wrong way. We can disagree, but I think we all benefit when we try to understand each other.

Qadira

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Celestial Healer wrote:
One cannot fully grasp what someone else's life is like based on articles, statistics, or web searches.

This. A hundred thousand times, this.

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