Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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The Exchange

I believe they're referring to Hannah in Sandpoint. I may be wrong, but she caught my eye.

Never really struck me as overtly political, just a footnote in her description. YMMV of course.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Moorluck wrote:

I believe they're referring to Hannah in Sandpoint. I may be wrong, but she caught my eye.

Never really struck me as overtly political, just a footnote in her description. YMMV of course.

Thanks, I'm running Brinewall Legacy as it happens :)

Liberty's Edge

... Hannah? Really?

...

I guess Night Tea is a political statement too.

:)

The Exchange

Alice Margatroid wrote:

... Hannah? Really?

...

I guess Night Tea is a political statement too.

:)

Yup.

I think says something along the effect that she encourages young women to use pinberry as a preventative measure, but for those that will... *shrugs*

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Moorluck wrote:

I believe they're referring to Hannah in Sandpoint. I may be wrong, but she caught my eye.

Never really struck me as overtly political, just a footnote in her description. YMMV of course.

Thanks, I'm running Brinewall Legacy as it happens :)

Details, such as they are, are in the Sandpoint section of Burnt Offerings. It really is more of a throwaway comment or deep background than you'd think from the reaction in this thread.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, I was expecting something more... you know... naaaah, whatever I'll write, it will get flagged :)

Liberty's Edge

Somewhat off topic tangent:
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Anne McCaffrey (RIP) talked about female dragonriders going between to end pregnancies, especially those caused by the, erm, activities, of their bonded dragons. Women who wanted to keep their children would avoid going between as the pregnancy progressed.

Pern is actually a very good example of homosexuality being patently obvious and a pervasive part of society without it ever being spotlighted. In the "modern" Pern era (of Lessa, F'lar, Jaxom, etc.), only the Gold riders were females, at least until much later in the series. The riders of the "winners" in a dragon flight are heavily implied to sleep together afterwards. Now, you could say that the two men immediately stumble off back to a conveniently waiting woman, but I'm pretty sure the idea is that it was seen as sort of a necessary evil as part of the job of being a dragonrider. :)

And I guess the key part of that is that it's never really touched upon in the books in any great detail. Lessa and F'lar's erm... post-flight activities are a "fade to black" affair. I used to play a lot of MUD/MUSH/forum Pern roleplaying when I was younger, and it was the same way, regardless of the genders involved. And actually, iirc there is some implication that gay men were picked by greens and blues more often than other colours for this reason... not sure if that's canon or just fanon (it all gets mixed up after years of MUDs)

On the note of Sandpoint, I always loved the casual inclusion of the paladin and the theatre owner couple (their names slip my mind right now). I played up the bard's flamboyant nature big time when I ran it, and my group loved it. :) Sandpoint is quite the progressive place for a back-woods small town.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The fact that a same-sex couple was presented that way made me go "oh, somebody in the RPGs got things right as to handle this stuff". Not making it a Big Thing yet not treating it as absent from their world.

Of course, my views were challenged in Hook Mountain Massacre but hey, it's us Euros always having more beef with violence than we have with sex :)

Still lovin' the way Paizo handles mature content. Well, except for that nipples thing...


Personally I loved Jasper and Cydric.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

... Hannah? Really?

...

I guess Night Tea is a political statement too.

:)

Not quite. Night Tea is a drug or poison- not a character. There is a clear difference. I think that Night Tea is a dubious and unnecessary addition to the equipment list, but it is not in your face and objectionable like the inclusion of a good aligned abortionist.

You asked about a hypotehtical evil aligned abortionist. I would actually be against that as well, although it would be harder to know if it should count as propaganda. Allow me to explain.

I'm not aware of anyone who claims that an evil person could NOT perform abortions, but a great many people do claim that abortion is murder and therefore an evil action. A good-aligned abortionist therfore seems calculated to offend a whole lot of people.

Now, you might argue that making her evil would have also been a politcal statement. Let us grant you that.

Why include abortionists in the game at all?

It does not fit the PG-13 feel they are supposedly going for in their products.

This is a prime example of the sort of thing that should be left out of the official books. It's way too controversial, and no matter how they handle it, they may offend a lot of people. We arem't just talking about lifestyle, we are talking about something millions of Americans consider to be murder. That's a big deal. I think Paizo would be most unwise to publish more NPCs like Hannah. One might be excused, but if a pattern is seen to develop, the reaction could be very bad.

YMMV

Dark Archive

Set wrote:
Ooh, Pathfinder the MMO! Pathfinder the Comic Book! Pathfinder, the Porno?

Hmm I'm not sold on the porno route here.

I've always held the strong belief that Paizo would open a very gamer/geek friendly and hipster chic type of coffee house after their other types of business expansions, and this of course would pave the way for an easy front of their end game, which of course would be Paizo Money Laundering Services {TM}.

Liberty's Edge

Do you think that Bachelor Snuff is also "a dubious and unnecessary addition to the equipment list"?

You seem to be focusing on this "abortionist" issue, which suggests to me that it's you that has the political line to push, rather than anyone else. Burnt Offerings has been out for... how many years now? Has anyone ever had a problem with it before now?

Here's the relevant description about her in this regard:

"Hannah’s ironically the one to go to when either one wants to end a pregnancy or needs a midwife to aid in a birth; Hannah encourages all of the women she sees to carry to term, and advises the use of pinberry extract to young women as a way to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place, but in cases where there’s no other option, her other services are discrete and confidential."

Is this really what you think is OMG CONTROVERSIAL and not PG-13? My advice: don't read Hook Mountain Massacre if that's how you think. :)

EDIT: Also, if you feel the need to flag something, please just flag it and move on. You realise you're encouraging him by responding, correct?


lots of stuff going on here.

strange, last time i checked i didn't find the USA on the golarion map or any mentions of christianity in the setting.

at our gaming table, homesexuality is quite common, as are contraceptives and the occasional abortion. (only one i remeber actually, done by a druid for a pc).

and apart from that, there's lots of kinky/taboo stuff. everything that helps to define a pc's character is legit. because it all happens in a fantasy world. like, only inside your head.

Shadow Lodge

Aretas wrote:
Asphere wrote:
Aretas wrote:

I believe its up to the DM/Players to decide where they want to take their game. Let us decide whether or not Harsk is doing Lem in the back of the wagon between dungeon crawls.

My suggestion would be for Paizo to spend more creative time making their books hold together and less time creating a politically correct, diversity utopia. Leave that to the players.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Simply noting that homosexuals exist in the Golarion setting is not an attempt to be politically correct. If that were true, and you believe in a god, then god was being politically correct by creating this Universe when he allowed the existence of homosexuals.

Homosexuality is a real sexual preference seen in nature...why shouldn't it be found in Golarion? To me saying it is up to the DM to decide whether they want homosexuals in Golarion is the same as saying that every human in Pathfinder should be white and it is up to the DM to decide if he wants to add black people.

Does anyone else find this entire thread amusing or am I just twisted?

Its up to the GROUP if they want Homosexual "content" in the game.

Leave God out of this please? I do not wish to get into a Theological discussion on the boards b/c i'm 100% certain I'll be flagged by the board mafia and then banned. I'll just say your wrong and you will understand one day. (Bait not taken)

I cannot with a clear mind equate homosexual activity to a racial/gender group. That is another topic I wish to stay away from for the same reason. What I will say is that equating it to womans suffrage and the civil rights movement is simply wrong.

On the topic, since I and my gaming group play in a traditional D&D setting based in a fantasy midevil Europe which is White and we are all a shade of Indo-European we just play our characters as White and assume NPC's are White.

Really man, you could do whatever you want with your character. Just find a group that wants to play your

...

Remember, Paizo made one or more of the NPCs were homosexual. That is not a PC statement. Homosexuality is commonly found in nature among most primates. Why it wouldn't be in Golarion baffles me.

There were homosexuals in Medieval Europe by the way...so as long as you are imagining your campaign as a white society you might as well speckle some homosexuality in there since your concerned about accuracy.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

Do you think that Bachelor Snuff is also "a dubious and unnecessary addition to the equipment list"?

You seem to be focusing on this "abortionist" issue, which suggests to me that it's you that has the political line to push, rather than anyone else. Burnt Offerings has been out for... how many years now? Has anyone ever had a problem with it before now?

Here's the relevant description about her in this regard:

"Hannah’s ironically the one to go to when either one wants to end a pregnancy or needs a midwife to aid in a birth; Hannah encourages all of the women she sees to carry to term, and advises the use of pinberry extract to young women as a way to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place, but in cases where there’s no other option, her other services are discrete and confidential."

Is this really what you think is OMG CONTROVERSIAL and not PG-13? My advice: don't read Hook Mountain Massacre if that's how you think. :)

EDIT: Also, if you feel the need to flag something, please just flag it and move on. You realise you're encouraging him by responding, correct?

Bachelor Snuff is not an abortofacient, so there is no comparsion. Apples and oranges. I don't think it really needed to be on the list, though.

Now, as for your attempt to draw me into a real-world political debate (which I will not have here)...flagged for trolling.

Liberty's Edge

Dude, I was trying to be polite about it. No trolling intended. If I offended you, I apologise. I just don't understand how you can get all up in arms about something as mild as Hannah, who (as far as I can tell) you'd never heard of until someone else posted an off-hand and exaggurated comment about it.

Shadow Lodge

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ewan cummins 325 wrote:
Aretas wrote:

Eh, you will figure it out some day kid....I and the vast majority of the population could care less what your sexual habits are. I was referring to people (the previous post) who compare Wahhabi Islam with Christianity.

I don't think that pushing political correctness is ever a good idea, especially not in a gaming product.

Some posters have raised the concern that Paizo is sliding into just such a trap.

I had my fears of that, but the overall content of products has tended to dispel those worries.

Golarion is a long way from Blue Rose!
:)

How is postulating the existence of gay people in a fantasy campaign setting pushing a political agenda? If we played this game in the 50's people would up in arms about blacks being in a rpg.

Liberty's Edge

So how about we get off the topic of abortion, which is completely unrelated to "Homosexuality in Golarion", and facilitate some more legitimate discussion without constant "flagged for x" posts messing up the thread?

I'd like to return to thinking about Daikitsu and Nalinivati in the Dragon Empires, which is a very interesting coupling, in my opinion. The Tien apparently think that fertility and agriculture are strongly connected--and I can see why. Planting seeds, etc. But it's also an interracial relationship...and not something as minor as elf x human! Are the Tien more accepting of oddball relations like this?

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Can someone please explain to me why creating gay NPCs and people having abortions in Golarion is pushing a political agenda? Both gays and abortions have been around in human history for a long time (both referenced in classical literature as far back as Aristotle). Is every piece of classical literature that mentions homosexuality from ancient Greece to Shakespeare pushing a political agenda or being PC? It is up to you to ignore it, react badly in game, or react positively in game.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Alice Margatroid wrote:

So how about we get off the topic of abortion, which is completely unrelated to "Homosexuality in Golarion", and facilitate some more legitimate discussion without constant "flagged for x" posts messing up the thread?

I'd like to return to thinking about Daikitsu and Nalinivati in the Dragon Empires, which is a very interesting coupling, in my opinion. The Tien apparently think that fertility and agriculture are strongly connected--and I can see why. Planting seeds, etc. But it's also an interracial relationship...and not something as minor as elf x human! Are the Tien more accepting of oddball relations like this?

I think it's that they have two goddesses fulfilling what is traditionally one "Earth Mother" role. The two are so connected that they need rto have some relationship. They can't be blood relatives because one's a Kitsune and one's a Naga, so they're portrayed as a couple.

There may also be a racist tinge to it by showing how corrupt the gods of the non-humans are compared to the purer human gods, but that might be my warped brain adding bits that aren't there.

EDIT: That said, the society of Tien Xa seesm to be more open to non-huamns as people, possibly because of all the non-human, and even non-humanoid, spirits and kami. It's hard to say a vulpine humanoid isn't a person when your house has it's own spirit that you can talk to and see.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There's just no getting through to some people...

Asphere wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why creating gay NPCs and people having abortions in Golarion is pushing a political agenda? Both gays and abortions have been around in human history for a long time (both referenced in classical literature as far back as Aristotle). Is every piece of classical literature that mentions homosexuality from ancient Greece to Shakespeare pushing a political agenda or being PC? It is up to you to ignore it, react badly in game, or react positively in game.

Probably because certain groups of people just go out of their way to look for something like that.


OK back to the real discussion.

I really think the more openness to homosexuality on Golarion is more because of the way the major religions are portrayed. If you look at our world, the majority of people who are against homosexuality come from a religious background, and almost every major religion, including the big three are against it. When you have absolutely no major religion or political group against something like this, then of course it's going to be more accepted.

Now as for the deific interracial relationship in Tien, I have no plan to pick up said book so I may be wrong, maybe the Tien cultures just don't see anything wrong with this coupling and understand love is love.

Dark Archive

Back to the topic at hand can someone actually tell me which book this Abortional alchemist actually is. I don't recall seeing it anywhere and I have the majority of Paizo's source books (Is quite possible I have just missed it)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kevin Mack wrote:
Back to the topic at hand can someone actually tell me where this Abortional alchemist actually is. I don't recall seeing it anywhere and I have the majority of Paizo's source books (Is quite possible I have just missed it)

It's the midwife in Sandpoint, Hannah Velerin. She's mentioned on page 70 and 71 of Burnt Offerings. This is part of the background detail of Sandpoint in that adventure.

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