Ok, it seems to me theres a way to make the fighter more up to snuff, and keep it flavorfull (No pseudo-magic BS here). And its simple, if a fighter is supposed to be an expert at combat, why not give him the choice of abilities (not unlike rogue abilities in concept) that increase the standard attack options and the bases of the major feat trees, and by that i mean, why not create abilities that enhance his ability to throw down in dramatic and interesting ways? The base feats and special attack options are, of course:
Aid Another
Bullrush
Charge
Disarm
Feint
Grapple
Overrun
Sunder
Trip
Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Two-Weapon Fighting
I think that these abilities should come on the levels that the fighter doesnt get a fighter bonus feat, and of course one at level 1. Ideas on abilities that would improve, or add to the ultility of this abilities? I can think of one obvious one off the top of my head:
[Novice/Expert/Master/Legendary "X"] (Triper, Overrun, etc)
The fighter adds a flat bonus to the opposed check of whatever skill he took. (Values??) So, a fighter who took this feat would be especially good at tripping, disarming, etc. Obviously this is a very basic one, and they all shouldnt be like this. We need to come up with abilities that will improve these core mechanics. Do people understand? (And i dont mean just always giving them new bonuses to a specific special attack, im thinking things like rogue talents but focused on the above list. Deffinatly think about giving the fighter access to improved power attack, supreme power attack, and supreme cleave.
Well, why not making the fighter THE ONLY CLASS that can take Combat Maneuver feats?
I like the new fighter..more combat feats would boost him big time and maybe allowing fighters and fighters alone to use more then one per round. Maybe 1 every 5 levels so at 5th 2 ,10 3,15th 4 20th 5 maybe not sure but i really like the new fighter
I dont like them being the only one that can do them but doing more then other folks or maybe doing it better somehow.
Can we actually talk about my idea -.-;
Well, why not making the fighter THE ONLY CLASS that can take Combat Maneuver feats?
Im probably gonna house-rule away "combat feats" and just treat them like normal feats. i wanna be able to power attack and cleave in the same round... and i want power attack and cleave to work the way they did back in the day. Why did they nerf power attack and cleave?? power attack was the fighters only saving grace!
uh power attack is a normal feat really and cleave works much better now .
Also alot of your options can be taken anyhow thats really why the fighter has that many feats.
uh power attack is a normal feat really and cleave works much better now .
Also alot of your options can be taken anyhow thats really why the fighter has that many feats.
No, you dont understand. I want non-feat improvements to those things... like sundering a guys weapon and getting a free attack on him, tripping several people in a row, bullrushing combined with a charge combined with overrun... Like... completely new improvements that arnt feats.
got ya...hummm not sure on that kinda like being pigeon holed a bit but it could work. I just think the new fighter works well he just needs a little something not a whole rewrite.
And i'm so with ya on no magic junk with the fighter.
got ya...hummm not sure on that kinda like being pigeon holed a bit but it could work. I just think the new fighter works well he just needs a little something not a whole rewrite.
And i'm so with ya on no magic junk with the fighter.
I dont see how this addition isnt going to add to the fighter; the fighter basicly got nothing new... a little bit more AC and a small amount of extra damage; thats not nearly as powerfull as allowing them to enhance core combat techniques.
Can we actually talk about my idea -.-;
If you only want to discuss your idea, don't name your thread a [THINK TANK].
I created this prefix (following the [DESIGN FOCUS] threads initiated by Jason and staff) to mark a thread where all ideas about a rather general topic (like one class/race/skill) could be gathered and discussed, so Jason wouldn't need to scan about a dozen thread about the same topic.
Can we actually talk about my idea -.-;If you only want to discuss your idea, don't name your thread a [THINK TANK].
I created this prefix (following the [DESIGN FOCUS] threads initiated by Jason and staff) to mark a thread where all ideas about a rather general topic (like one class/race/skill) could be gathered and discussed, so Jason wouldn't need to scan about a dozen thread about the same topic.
If i could go back and change the title i would. xD
well i like em simple really. I think multiple combat feats per round would really make em powerful in a simple way match it with there BAB
BAB +6 2 Combat feats per round
BAB +11 3 Combat feats per round
BAB +16 4 Combat feats per round
Add more fighter only combat feats
4 skill ranks per level also
Other then that it really is fine adding multiple little +2 and such I don't care for but thats just me.
well i like em simple really. I think multiple combat feats per round would really make em powerful in a simple way match it with there BAB
BAB +6 2 Combat feats per round
BAB +11 3 Combat feats per round
BAB +16 4 Combat feats per roundAdd more fighter only combat feats
Other then that it really is fine adding multiple little +2 and such I don't care for but thats just me.That was an example, not the crux of my idea; i want fighters to have more unique attack options when using bullrush, aid another, trip, etc.
Like, example, a fighter talent that lets the fighter use Aid Another at range.
The think tank tag was dracodruids ideal and it was a good one lets folks pool ideals in one thread.
The think tank tag was dracodruids ideal and it was a good one lets folks pool ideals in one thread.
What a cruel joke that i have highjacked it then lol
Nah its been used alot by alot of diff people it catches folks eyes and does indeed help keep the the same topics in one place.
Yepp. It's perfectly ok if you or anybody else starts a [THINK TANK], I have not the trademark on this and don't want it.
But if someone does, he should do it right:
1) Topic Name: "[THINK TANK] {insert topic here}" (titel not capitalized, space between think and tank - I know i am nitpicky)
2) Topic content: as I said, it should be a rather general topic where ideas should be gathered and discussed
Yepp. It's perfectly ok if you or anybody else starts a [THINK TANK], I have not the trademark on this and don't want it.
But if someone does, he should do it right:1) Topic Name: "[THINK TANK] {insert topic here}"
2) Topic content: as I said, it should be a rather general topic where ideas should be gathered and discussed
mmk ^_^ lets discuss mine.
I still think one of the best options towards fixing the fighter is the ability to trade iterative attacks for extra damage or other advantages. Something like trading one itertaive attack for an extra d6 on damage (Brutal Blow), making a 10-foot adjust without provoking an AoO, granting a +2 to AC etc. This could make fighter very versatile combatants and still give them some serious punch (trading two iterative attacks for an extra 2d6 would be a havy strike).
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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I pretty much like the fighter the way he is now. I'd like to see 4 skills per level, but I don't think the fighter should get additional bonuses to combat maneuvers for free.
I think that feats represent the fighter's ability to do well in combat. Because the fighter does best, he gets the most feats. Since he gets the most feats, he can already do the most things in combat. Giving 'blanket' abilities doesn't really fit with the fighter as a general class. If the fighter should be able to represent any martial character from a samurai, to a knight, to a thug, to a swashbuckler, to an archer, to a gladiator ETC, allowing choice is of paramount importance.
I do agree with the OP that combat feats are unnecessary. They are confusing to me as someone experienced with 3.5, and I've decided that not only will I not use them, I cannot use them. They're a major pain.
I do think that Power Attack can use a little adjustment. I've never liked the -1 to attack +2 to damage of 3.5 Power Attack. We nearly always houserule it to -1 attack, +1.5 damage just like strength bonus. We also allow Power Attack to work with light weapons, and allow it to provide +.5 damage on the off-hand weapon.
I don't like Power Attack now where it is 'all-or-nothing'. If the designers want to make it easy, just give a few options: when you first take it you can take a penalty of up to -5 and add +5 to your damage roll. If you make it a static bonus, it becomes something that should be applied 'per attack' not 'per round'. So, if I have 3 attacks, +15/+10/+5, I should be able to power attack for the first one but not the other two. Since I'm losing the option to power attack for 3 (for instance) I think this is a fair trade. A change along this line would make Power Attack more useful since the first attack with Power Attack is likely to hit with a fighter, but their secondary and tertiary attacks are also more likely to hit, although without the same damage output. A +5 Damage bonus (+7 w/ 2-handed) isn't going to get out of hand the way -10 +20 does.
Quick ideas:
1. Reflex save vs. successful disarm, DC equal to Disarm roll
2. Distracting prescence: Add fighters BAB to all spellcraft checks
3. Man at Arms: -2 penalty on improvised weapon use
4. Master of Arms: +2 bonus re leadership feat.
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hmm the problem ive always seen with the fighter is that his specalty is supposed to be able to do several diffent variations but the problem is many of the spaltbooks do these variations a lot better than a regular fighter could (Swashbuckler comes to mind). With this in mind and also that a fighter's main strength is his feats i would suggest more fighter only feats that replicate what classes like the swashbuckler get for example
Inteligent strike
Prerequisits Fighter, Int 13, can only be waring light armour,
You are able to properly pick out and place attackes where they will do the most damage
Add your intelligence modifier to all damage rolls
I posted elsewhere and then saw this thread and, seeing as it deals with the fighter, it sounds like it ought to be posted here. So apologies for double-posting.
"Just a thought (and I haven't seen anything similar so far), but how about adding an ability at certain levels for the fighter to be able to overcome certain Damage Resistance (such as silver, or fire or whatever). In effect, the fighter gains the knowledge to overcome these resistances. Needs a little more thought, but it would add some flexibility to the fighter."
Feel free to dismiss, house-rule, embellish or even ignore, but I think it adds a combat-type ability that would actually benefit the fighter in a less obvious way.
Adam - I agree 100% that fighters should be more versatile with combat maneuvers, but a flat bonus is just so blah. Maybe there could be a feat for that, too:
COMBAT MANEUVER, ADVANCED
Prerequisite: Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, or Improved Grapple
Benefit: Choose one of the maneuvers for which you meet the prerequisite. You receive a +1 bonus per 3 fighter levels you possess to the CMB for that specific maneuver.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, select a different combat maneuver to which it applies.
That way you could choose which maneuvers to specialize in, and fighters have the potential to be way better with maneuvers than anyone else.
Dracodruid - love the "think tank" label. Tells people to show up with ideas and brainstorm.
DeadDM - love your Power Attack housreule; I plan to adopt it ASAP. I also agree with your assessment as to the combat feats. P.S. Fighter should get 4 skill points/level -- although I'm still convinces that clerics and wizards, et al, are fine with 2 ;)
Kevin - I'd add Weapon Finesse, Lightning Reflexes (since the grace class feature isn't OGL), and BAB +3 to the prerequisite, so that your feat matches the Swashbuckler ability, and limit it to weapons useable with Weapon Finesse. In my opinion, you don't want to stack your Insighful Strike with Power Attack, for example.
Babbage - Seconded without hesitation. Maybe something like this:
4th level--bypass DR/silver or cold iron, 8th--/magic, 12th--/weapoon type, 16th--alignment, 20th--adamantine. The levels and materials could be scaled differently, but you can see where I'm coming from.
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Personally I've always felt that what a fighter could really use is a mechanic to trade itterative attacks for parries to incoming blows that after 11th level or so became able to parry magical attacks as well, You know how in fantasy movies you see the fighter cut through the magic attack with his sword. It would give him a defense against magic without making him magical per se. Also a few fighter only feats that enabled him to do things like use his shield to guard against AoE. Think of a fighter just ducking behind his shield when the dragon breaths fire.
Personally I've always felt that what a fighter could really use is a mechanic to trade itterative attacks for parries to incoming blows that after 11th level or so became able to parry magical attacks as well, You know how in fantasy movies you see the fighter cut through the magic attack with his sword. It would give him a defense against magic without making him magical per se. Also a few fighter only feats that enabled him to do things like use his shield to guard against AoE. Think of a fighter just ducking behind his shield when the dragon breaths fire.
Excellent, I like this idea a lot. Might house-rule it if it doesn't appear. :)
Of the things we've seen, I love the move-and-multiple-attack idea, and the penetrate DR idea, and for sure would like to see options for those. And there's one more that came up elsewhere: I'd REALLY like to see some way for the fighter to pre-emptively ruin spells. Not cut through them with a sword -- that just seems goofy to me for some reason (obviously YMMV as to that) -- but maybe see when somebody's casting and get a single move and attack as an immediate action, to force a Concentration check at some unreasonable DC. THAT would be cool. Whether it's a feat or class feature, and what the limitations were, we'd have to hash out.
Personally I've always felt that what a fighter could really use is a mechanic to trade itterative attacks for parries to incoming blows that after 11th level or so became able to parry magical attacks as well, You know how in fantasy movies you see the fighter cut through the magic attack with his sword. It would give him a defense against magic without making him magical per se. Also a few fighter only feats that enabled him to do things like use his shield to guard against AoE. Think of a fighter just ducking behind his shield when the dragon breaths fire.
Great ideas! Trading attacks for parries at higher levels would put those extra attacks to some use. You could do something similar to the deflect missile feat but for attacks.
I also thought that the fighter should get some kind of ability to analyze the enemy and gain a bonus from it. They could get a bonus to attack/damage ("He always leaves his left side open..."), a dodge/insight/armor bonus ("She always leans to the left before swinging her weapon..."), or give a bonus to his allies attacks ("The creature's stomach is less armored..."). That provides not only another useful ability for the fighter but also provides some fun fluff for the class.
I also think that the fighter should get a bonus towards spotting ambushes, appraising armor/weapons/horses/battlefield conditions/enemy tactics, and gathering information/influencing people due to the shear power of their presence (you always read about the warrior who was given a wide birth where ever he went because he was either so physically intimidating or looked to be incredibly skilled with the blade at this back).
I also think that the fighter should get a bonus towards spotting ambushes, appraising armor/weapons/horses/battlefield conditions/enemy tactics, and gathering information/influencing people due to the shear power of their presence (you always read about the warrior who was given a wide birth where ever he went because he was either so physically intimidating or looked to be incredibly skilled with the blade at this back).
Yes, yes, and yes! I always sort of felt like the fighter should get uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, as feats if not as class features. If all that combat training doesn't teach you to guard your flank, nothing will!
Regarding iterative attacks... what if a fighter had an option where he could choose to withold one or more of them, and then use them as immediate actions before his next turn? That would cover the pre-emptive strike idea, and let him cut down a bad guy who is about to finish off the fighter's ally, etc. Or use them as parries, for that matter.
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Personally I've always felt that what a fighter could really use is a mechanic to trade itterative attacks for parries to incoming blows that after 11th level or so became able to parry magical attacks as well, You know how in fantasy movies you see the fighter cut through the magic attack with his sword. It would give him a defense against magic without making him magical per se. Also a few fighter only feats that enabled him to do things like use his shield to guard against AoE. Think of a fighter just ducking behind his shield when the dragon breaths fire.Great ideas! Trading attacks for parries at higher levels would put those extra attacks to some use. You could do something similar to the deflect missile feat but for attacks.
I also thought that the fighter should get some kind of ability to analyze the enemy and gain a bonus from it. They could get a bonus to attack/damage ("He always leaves his left side open..."), a dodge/insight/armor bonus ("She always leans to the left before swinging her weapon..."), or give a bonus to his allies attacks ("The creature's stomach is less armored..."). That provides not only another useful ability for the fighter but also provides some fun fluff for the class.
I also think that the fighter should get a bonus towards spotting ambushes, appraising armor/weapons/horses/battlefield conditions/enemy tactics, and gathering information/influencing people due to the shear power of their presence (you always read about the warrior who was given a wide birth where ever he went because he was either so physically intimidating or looked to be incredibly skilled with the blade at this back).
No. The Fighter (and Fighter Alone) should gain access to Martial Warfare Feat Trees based entirely on the training path they choose like Riding, Archery, Weapon Combat and some complimentary cross over like Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery.
That of course makes the Monk a fighter with Feat trees covering Unarmed combat, number of attacks, and speed of movement.
Giving Fighters temporary "Charisma" Bonuses for Battlefield Prowess, and Tactical Awareness, and Diplomacy bonuses because they are suddenly the "focus of attention"...should be restricted to a Leadership Feat Tree beginning with Leadership at level 4.
That of course makes the Monk a fighter with Feat trees covering Unarmed combat, number of attacks, and speed of movement.
Are you sure you wouldn't be happier playing GURPS? Not trying to be snarky; I often think that I might be a lot happier that way (if there were a GURPS d20 that would let me use Paizo adventures). But I've resigned myself to D&D, which means classes, even if they are fairly artificial and are divided from one another in totally arbitrary ways.
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That of course makes the Monk a fighter with Feat trees covering Unarmed combat, number of attacks, and speed of movement.Are you sure you wouldn't be happier playing GURPS? Not trying to be snarky; I often think that I might be a lot happier that way (if there were a GURPS d20 that would let me use Paizo adventures). But I've resigned myself to D&D, which means classes, even if they are fairly artificial and are divided from one another in totally arbitrary ways.
Funny. Unfortunately when they ripped off the Skill and Feat system for D&D 3.0 from The FALLOUT Computer game Handbook back in 1994...they took away a "single class" who was defined entirely by the feat trees you chose.
Funny. Unfortunately when they ripped off the Skill and Feat system for D&D 3.0 from The FALLOUT Computer game Handbook back in 1994...they took away a "single class" who was defined entirely by the feat trees you chose.
Take away the computer, and that sounds suspiciously like something I'd have a lot of fun playing. I once converted 2e to a point-buy system that I could use with 1e/2e adventures with minimal conversion. Maybe I can do the same with 3.5/Pathfinder.
I think that better defensive feats should be in order for the fighter, and a boost to one saving throw, but not something that grants him a good save bonus equivalent, a +3 total in the 20 levels would be good, that would emulate a medium saving bonus for reflex or will.
It would make sense to me if Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will could be chosen as fighter bonus feats.
Yeah but how do you do methodical juggs without being... uhm.. sticky.
I think its really important to stress that the fighter does not necessarily need a boost in his raw damage to improve the class.
Where the class needs assistance (and all pure melee classes for that matter) is in allowing them to contribute in shaping the battle, some control, etc.
If the fighters are supposed to be able to help prevent the wizard from going splat, then there needs to be skills and abilities that they can use to perform that role.
The Knight in the PHB2 had a great ability to make all terrain around him difficult terrain, making it difficult to blitz past him and go to the squishy caster behind him. I'd like to see feats and or abilities that do things like the stun of the monk. Perhaps at higher levels if they take a full round action they can make one attack and deliver a stun or some other ability to allow them to not only draw attention to themselves, but perhaps orient themselves or allow the party to put themselves in a better position to allow him to protect the party.
There are quite a few abilities that can be attributed to do this kind of thing, they just need to be created :).
An increase in damage is not the best answer in my opinion, expanding the ability to shape what is happening on the battlefield is.
I've been toying around with the idea of filling up the "off" levels like Paizo did. However, instead of giving the flat bonuses that Paizo does, allow a player to pick talents for his fighter. These talents can be pulled straight out of the d20 Modern SRD. Specifically, the fighter should be allowed to pick from the Extreme Effort (STR), Ignore Hardness (STR), Melee Smash (STR), Damage Reduction (CON), Energy Resistance (CON), Unbreakable (CON), and Strategy (INT) talent trees.
I haven't playtested this idea, but I really like it in theory.
Really, the first thing we have to decide is what the fighter is supposed to represent. There's no clear concept here. Heck, it isn't totally clear what archetypes *melee* characters in general are supposed to represent at high levels. Lets take a look at some fictional melee characters and their approximate D+D level.
Conan - 3-5th
Lancelot - 2-4th
King Arthur - 7th, tops
Sir Gawain - 5th, tops
Hercules - 8-10th
Beowulf - 8-10th
Aragorn - 6th, tops
Thor (marvel comics) - ~13th
Hulk (marvel comics) - ~13th
Captain Marvel, Mar'Vell (marvel comic) - ~11th
Superman (DC comics) - ~17th
Colossus (marvel comics) - ~10th
Angel (marvel comics) - ~5th
Beast (marvel comics) - ~7th
The Thing (marvel comics) - ~11th
Spider-Man (marvel comics) - ~9th
Wolverine (marvel comics) - ~11thNow, some of these arguably fit in different classes, but they're all melee characters and fit in melee classes, primarily fighter or barbarian.
Notice that even before 10th level all of them have supernatural abilities. Hercules is supernaturally strong, as is Beowulf (come now, he pulls the arm off of Grendel - that's supernaturally strong, and i'm not talking about the movie version)
The only one of these guys who gets by mostly on fighting skill above 10th level is Wolverine, and he still has unbreakable bones, claws that can cut through anything, and a healing factor that has regenerated him from as little as a single cell (I'm serious, UXM Annual 13 iirc).
By approximately 17th level we have a guy who can shatter planets with his fist, take a hydrogen bomb to the chest and not notice, shoot heat rays from his eyes, freeze people with his breath, fly, and travel faster than light (remember going around the world really fast to go back in time.... yeah). That's a 17th...
How in the heck do you derive your estimations on character levels of fictional and fantasy heroes?
Conan fights the avatar of a God in the second movie, 3-5th level? Im not much of a Marvel guy, but isn't Thor a god or deity himself?
Your assumptions on what level these completely unrelated heroes of fiction are in D&D terms is stretching the means of any comparison. Superman is level 17, but I'd love to see any 17th level character in D&D have that kind of power. Give me a break.
Monte Cook has the completely correct idea in his Books of Experimental Might II of where I think the fighters and melees need to be directed. Options and directions, versatility....the ability to impact his enemies and help direct the action on the battlefield, not more damage (yawn).
I haven't finished the book yet but I'm very impressed with what I have seen so far. The optional stuff seems too much but the bulk of the BoEM 2 looks well thought out and pretty well balanced with the rest of core.
Wanted to throw in something that might be familiar, but why not give the fighter a little more focused path options rather than making him a tons of feats generalist? I like the idea of making the fighter have something similar to what the ranger has in 3.5 as far as progressive combat abilities. Instead of choosing between bow and two weapon fighting as a ranger does the fighter could choose between defense and offense at level one and then with subsequent levels giving more abilities associated with the offense and defense.
For Example
Lv1. Offense/Defense selection, Bonus Feat
Lv2. Bonus feat
Lv3. Dmg Bonus/AC Bonus
Lv4. Bonus Feat
Lv5. Fear ability (requires inimidate)/Challenge foe (requires inimidate)
Lv6. Bonus Feat
Lv7. Dmg Bonus/AC Bonus, +dmg vs enemy DR/gain DR
Lv8. Bonus Feat
etc...
Just an idea.