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I would like to begin by asking that posters please be civil. This is an opinion, I'm just giving feedback, and yes, we have playtested the new system.
Opening Remarks
First off, let me startby saying that I love the new Rage Powers. Initially, I had apprehension over the mechanic, fearing it would attempt to eliminate the need for certain non-OGL feats (i.e. Rage feats, in this case) making them obsolete, and therefore eliminating a degree of “backwards compatibility”. My fears were unwarranted; Rage Powers are a great new way of using the barbarian rage ability. Unfortunately, Rage Points DID eliminate the need for those feats (Extend Rage, Extra Rage, etc.). I realize that those feats are non-OGL, but it seems the general assumption is that players do not already own the books containing those feats or no longer use them. In my playtest group, neither is true. And my playtest group is always trying to find a way to "break" the system for personal advantage. It is one of the reasons I use them for playtesting; not all of them are members of my on-going campaigns.
The Problem
Pathfinder has as one of its core ideals “backwards compatibility”. Rage Points change the basic mechanics of the Rage class ability. Rage points not only create a new mechanic, they create more math in an already math heavy game. Spending and keeping track of Rage Points creates more work for the player and the DM. If simplicity is the goal of Pathfinder's “fixes” for 3.5, this might not be one of them.
The Solution
Make the Rage Powers (and hopefully, eventually Smite Powers) system work similar to Rogue Talents with prerequisites. I understand that not all the Rage Powers are created equal, thus the difference in Rage Point costs. A prerequisite based off of base attack bonus, ability score or class level could go a long way toward keeping it in line. While some think that the “X per day” mechanic is archaic, it does have the advantage of being easy to remember and use. If it were a complete dinosaur, Paizo surely wouldn’t still use it for spells, Turn Undead, or a number of other mechanics. If “X per day” seems too weak, maybe an “X per encounter” use would be better (yes, I know that sounds very 4E… I apologize). It is just a suggestion. Lastly, as a DM who voluntarily runs the newbie game at local conventions, I know that the “X per day” mechanic is easy to grasp. The more complex the game gets (such as tracking Rage Points), the harder it is to garner interest, especially for new players. Pathfinder is still in competition with 4E, even though they use separate mechanics not to mention numerous other RPGs out there.
Conclusion
I understand that Paizo is trying new ideas and testing the waters. Rage points make the game more complex. The more complex the game gets, the harder it is to introduce new players to the game. No new players mean no new revenue or interest. And I would REALLY like Paizo to succeed.
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In the playtest I ran the player who played the barbarian didn't complain about the rage points even though he's horrible with math. It's very simple when you're using tally marks.
I fail to see what complexity it really adds. A small amount of book-keeping, which actually replaces the math involved with power attack.
I found rage points to be great myself. there very easy to use give a barbarian lots of options and have a good feel. and using older stuff isn't hard give em 6 at first and 4 every level there after real fast and dirty or just go by the listed times per day and be done.
Rage points made their first appearance in our season last night. The 5th level Barbarian loved them and enjoyed the versatility they gave him. The halfling thief also took a level of Barbarian to get all the martial weapons and he was happy that he can now rage for more than one combat if the battle is over in a short time.
Neither of them moaned about the book keeping, in fact it seemed to work out much better for the barbarian as he could just count rounds as opposed to having to remember when his rage actually ran out.
I give these rules a 2 thumbs up!
I think that people (myself included) are hung up on the term "points" and how "unbarbarian" it feels. I feel that there's a better way to handle a barbarian's rage, and the abilities gained through that rage, than using term points.
A fairer representation would be to change the use of points and keep with the 3.5 PHB by having rage last a number of rounds which are in turn shortened by the barbarian performing feats beyond the scope of the standard Str & Con bump.
Example, a 2nd-level barbarian with a 14 Con can rage for 10 rounds normally. If that same 2nd-level barbarian were to use the Strength Surge rage power the length of his rage would be lessened by 3 rounds.
It essentially works the same as rage points but keeps with the original 3.5 rage mechanic flavor and backwards compatible with feats like Extend Rage.
If you have trouble with a barbarian who can't keep track of his rage points, another useful tool are those little colored glass stones you can put in the bottom of aquariums. Give him a number of stones equal to his rage points, let him organize them in rows of three. He then knows that certain of his powers are one rank, and the big ones cost him four ranks.
This presumes the player is very poor with math, but has basic counting skills. Honestly, there are ways of keeping track of these things. If there are enough colors of stones to keep track of an Iron Heroes game, there's enough to keep track of all your barbarians.
Hm. Bards need an ability to grant barbarians temporary rage points... Probably chosen by feat or class optional pick rather than mandatory.
No, stay on target. Sorry. I was trying to focus on things like Extend Rage, which just grants extra rage points, and other rage feats. In general, minor abilities cost 3 rage, while the Spell Deflection and such would cost 12. I don't know the full series of rage feats in all splatbooks, nor do I care to. I'm just saying the conversion seems easy enough, could you give us an example of a hard feat to convert?
I respect the original poster's opinion, but personally I like the fact that Extra Rage is a bit obsolete -- it was basically required if a barbarian wanted to use his unique power more than once or twice a day.
Similarly, the new skill system makes the feat "Able Learner" obsolete. I don't mind that either.
Complexity is not in itself the enemy. Rage Points are a system that can be kept track of by tick marks on a sheet of scratch paper, or using whatever mechanism you used to track life points in Magic or bennies from Savage Worlds. Does it add complexity? Yes, but the amount of real-time tracking needed is minimal.
On the flip side, it does add considerable versatility and additional functionality to the Barbarian, and makes him more than a one-trick pony (he's a really smart one-trick pony, but still, more than just a one-trick pony).
Incidentally, if its simplicity you want in a game system, then look no further than here. [url=smurf][/url]
Unfortunately, Rage Points DID eliminate the need for those feats (Extend Rage, Extra Rage, etc.). I realize that those feats are non-OGL, but it seems the general assumption is that players do not already own the books containing those feats or no longer use them. In my playtest group, neither is true. And my playtest group is always trying to find a way to "break" the system for personal advantage. It is one of the reasons I use them for playtesting; not all of them are members of my on-going campaigns.
Personally, I wouldn't mind telling a player that a feat has been obsoleted by a little lack of backward compatibility. After all, she now gets a chance to pick something new and cool to replace it!
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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In discussing Rage points with my players the point came up, which echos Epic Meepo's comment in another thread that playing the Barbarian with Rage points feels like a Psychic Warrior more than a Barbarian.
Bbn is supposed to be an easy class, and deliberating on how many rage points to burn does increase the amount of bookkeeping for the class. The most frequent Bbn player in my group even commented that he should be concentrating on killing things, not how many points he should spend. To throw an alternate system out there we thought that the Rage Powers should also be similar to Rogue Talents or Turning Attempts.
At x level you gain access to a Rage Power (chosen from a list for that level) and depending on the strength of said power it would last either Con bonus times per Rage or Con bonus Times per Day. Rages would last 3+Con bonus in rounds. So Strength Surge could be used 4 times per Rage by a Bbn with a Con of 18. The Rage Power ot Auto-confrim a critical could only be done Con bonus times per day, and perhaps only 1/Rage.
Complexity is not in itself the enemy. Rage Points are a system that can be kept track of by tick marks on a sheet of scratch paper, or using whatever mechanism you used to track life points in Magic or bennies from Savage Worlds. Does it add complexity? Yes, but the amount of real-time tracking needed is minimal.
At low levels this might be the case. But in a level 20 playtest we ran, the Barbarian had 164 or so Rage points (I could be off on the number, as I didn't play the barbarian... but I did help keep track of the rage points).
That's a lot of ticks to add up!
The other problem found at higher levels was we didn't think there were enough rage points to make it through a single encounter (granted, it was a single encounter with a red dragon). But still, definitely pushing it there.
I wonder if a per encounter mechanic might work, using the different rage abilities as maneuvers (see Bot9S)? While raging at level 5 you can do x for 1 round once / encounter. (This would minimize keeping track of over 100 ticks, and would seem to allow for backward compatibility with those other feats from those other books. Afterall, the idea is to allow people to continue to use their 3.5 library, not replace it with either Pathfinder or 4e).
My two cents.
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Thanks for all the insight and opinions. And especially for being civil.
At low levels this might be the case. But in a level 20 playtest we ran, the Barbarian had 164 or so Rage points (I could be off on the number, as I didn't play the barbarian... but I did help keep track of the rage points). That's a lot of ticks to add up!
This does pretty much illustrate my point. We playteseted at benchmark levels (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th), and found that the points increase becomes a mathematical choice that slows down game play at higher levels.
I don't know the full series of rage feats in all splatbooks, nor do I care to. I'm just saying the conversion seems easy enough, could you give us an example of a hard feat to convert?
Extend Rage, Extra Rage, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, and Instantaneous Rage are all from Complete warrior. If there are others, I am unsure of the sources. Not a huge list admittedly, but aimed specifically at the Barbarian. The first two are the only real casualties, but follow established mechanics for other class abilities (Extra Turning - Turn Undead; Extra Smiting - Smite). The next two need no conversion. The last one needs either conversion or elimination, since it can seriously affect gameplay. For example, with this feat a barbarian can rage as an immediate action and spend as many Rage points as he has to bump his power level to kill an adult red dragon within one round of combat. Granted, this happened in the 20th level playtest, but it did eliminate al the other players from engaging in the encounter.
As an aside, I never liked thaty WoTC introduced class specific feats (such as Bardic Music feats, Divine feats, Rage feats, and Wild feats)but did not increase the availability of these feats to the classes that benefit from them (as a bonus feat list, for example). When we playtested my homebrew "3.75", I gave a Bonus feat list to ALL the core classes that seemed appropriate. The Barbarian recieved the following:
Bonus Feat (Ex): Starting at 2nd level and every two levels of barbarian thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th), a barbarian gains a bonus feat from the following list: Cleave, Blind-Fight, Diehard, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Heroic Surge, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightening Reflexes, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Toughness, And Whirlwind Attack. Alternatively, a barbarian can choose instead any Rage feat.
Barbarian is supposed to be an easy class, and deliberating on how many rage points to burn does increase the amount of bookkeeping for the class. The most frequent Barbarian player in my group even commented that he should be concentrating on killing things, not how many points he should spend. To throw an alternate system out there we thought that the Rage Powers should also be similar to Rogue Talents or Turning Attempts. At x level you gain access to a Rage Power (chosen from a list for that level) and depending on the strength of said power it would last either Con bonus times per Rage or Con bonus Times per Day. Rages would last 3+Con bonus in rounds. So Strength Surge could be used 4 times per Rage by a Bbn with a Con of 18. The Rage Power ot Auto-confrim a critical could only be done Con bonus times per day, and perhaps only 1/Rage.
A system like this is exactly what I am looking for. It is backwards compatibile, uses the existing mechanics, and improving them, without eliminating any existing material. Hopefully Jason or Erik will read some of these suggestions or ideas. Thanks all for the comments!
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(I posted this also on another thread, but it fits here as well)
First of all, I *LOVE* the Rage Points and do not think they're complex -- on the contrary, they work just like Psionic Points and Hit Points, and I've had more trouble with keeping track of spell slots at higher levels than HPs or PSPs.
Like Arnim, I, too, hope that there will be 'Smite/Faith Points' and in addition to this, maybe even 'Adrenalin/Combat Points' for fighters.
Yet some of the Rage Powers somehow feel "wrong" to me, so here are the barbarian abilities that I'd like to see being "cut" from the Rage Powers (and maybe even the fighter "stealing" some of them from him?):
* Powerful Blow (makes sense for the barbarian, too, but I'd still argue that it should be part of the fighter's repertoire as well)
* Rolling Dodge (A very powerful defensive ability which at higher levels makes the fighter look quite pathetic in his armor. Maybe this would work best as one of the advanced rogue talents?)
* Surprise Accuracy (So you can add your barbarian level to your attack roll and make the fighter *really* look like a novice in combat? Uh... which of them was supposed to be the raging berserker and which the guy who should be more "accurate" with his attacks?)
* Unexpected Strike (Again, seems more like a fighter's talent that belonging to the guy who is raging...)
* Renewed Vigor (Certainly a barbarian power, but one which should be EX instead of SU, and I could very well imagine the fighter being able to do this, too)
* Elemental Rage (If any of the classes should get the benefits of this power, IMO it's definitely the *ranger*)
All in all I don't like how many barbarian Rage powers seems to be supernatural in origin -- especially as most of them would work as Extraordinary abilities as well.
Thoughts? Do you think some of those barbarian abilities should be given to the fighter?
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I found a monk version postedherethat uses an idea of Monk Talents with prerequisites that could be used to better model Rage Powers.
Yet some of the Rage Powers somehow feel "wrong" to me... All in all I don't like how many barbarian Rage powers seems to be supernatural in origin -- especially as most of them would work as Extraordinary abilities as well.
I do agree that of all the classes, the Barbarian should be the last to have "supernatural" abilities. Heck, if I remember correctly the 1st edition Barbarian (in the original Unearthed Arcana) gained experience fron DESTROYING magic items. I could be wrong. That was a long time ago, even for old gamers like me.
I hope barbarian rage points stay, they are kick-ass.
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In the playtest I ran the player who played the barbarian didn't complain about the rage points even though he's horrible with math. It's very simple when you're using tally marks.
I fail to see what complexity it really adds. A small amount of book-keeping, which actually replaces the math involved with power attack.
I have to say I agree. I don't like the feel of them. It feels way too gamist, and does add another level of complexity to an already complex game. It also changes the way a core mechanic works which is bad for backwards compatability. Rage talents with steeper prerequs for the more potent abilities seems to be a much simple, more elegant, and backwards compatable way to do this. Please take a close look at this Jason.
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I think we should look differently when analyzing the barbarian. There is a lot of complexity and if we look at managing the 100+ rage points at level 20 and the 20+ rage powers available.
The same goes for a 20th level fighter or wizard or cleric. The number of abilities, feats, spells is staggering and without preparation, a daunting task indeed.
However, playing a class and using its features is a gradual learning process. A player playing a level 1 barbarian (Con 16) has 8 rage points and no rage powers to manage. He or she rages once or twice every day and gets the hang of the rage costs. Level 2 gives the first rage power to choose from the 13 which are available at that level. With 10 to 12 points to spend, he or she can either rage once and use once a 6 point rage power or rage twice and use twice a 3-point rage power. With 9 rage powers to pick up over 19 levels, there is plenty of time to learn how these work and when to use them best.
With few rage powers and a limited range of options, the complexity goes up very gradually and ticking off rage points per round and spending one of the few rage powers you can use becomes as easy as casting spells.
If the player takes too long deciding what to do, I suspect that either he or she hasn't played the new barbarian class over several levels or that he or she would take as long when playing a fighter or a cleric. The issue boils down to the player's familiarity with the rules or to the session's pacing i.e. how much time do the players have to plan 6-seconds worth of actions?
I wouldn't get too hung up about the feel of the underlying mechanics. If the rage points concept is too gamist, what about magical energy stored in neat and indivisible slots of various power level?
I don't think that the barbarian class has lost anything of its simplicity. The barbarian can still "just" rage when he would rage in 3.5 and rage powers are an addition, which lets the barbarian perform a few new neat tricks. I don't see an issue with backwards compatibility.
In fact we transformed our 5th level characters from standard core to paizos alpha and he still coped well. In fact he loved them. It made it simpler for him to rage because now he wasn't afraid to spend a rage in the wrong battle. So I really don't buy the "complicates our simple barbarian" argument.
That's because you were level 5. Try it at level 20 and let us know if that's still a simple and easy to manage system.
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I am also skeptical of the rage point system. As for playtesting, I haven't seen them used yet because my player who was interested in the barbarian found the rage points too daunting and went with fighter instead. For her, the number of choices wasn't the problem, but having another number to keep track of was discouraging.
I believe it does get more complex than need be above level 12 or so. Changing the rage powers to class talents (like the rogue has) would be my preferred solution.
Random thought.
What if the barbarian could only use rage powers after spending a set number of rounds in a rage. It would be sort of a build up mechanic.
Example, A barbarian could only use the Knock Back rage power only after raging for x-number of consecutive rounds.
Thematic wise this would help portray that the longer (and therefore madder) the barbarian rages the more apt he is of performing extraordinary feats of strength (think along the lines of the Hulk).
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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My barbarian player is a power gamer and even though he could probably abuse the hell out of the point system he really dislikes the points, though he loves the powers.
He said if he wanted to play with points he'd play a psion. When he's playing a Barbarian he wants to smash monsters' faces in.
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What if the barbarian could only use rage powers after spending a set number of rounds in a rage. It would be sort of a build up mechanic.
I like the image of warming up a bit before firing off a rage power, but that would increase the actual point cost of rage powers and limit severely their usefulness. I don't see the barbarian waiting to get madder while in a grapple before firing off Animal Fury.
I am not fond of combat maneuvers or combos which require several rounds to activate. Combat is very unpredictable and the situation will change very quickly, removing the conditions for the activation of the power or ability.
A build up for purely reactive powers (Quick Reflexe) or for powers boosting other actions (Strength Surge) is not feasible.
The guy in my playtest likes them. He's a dwarf barbarian 8 (he was a dwarf warblade before we converted our Runelords campaign). His attack rolls and damage output is about the same (power attack and unexpected accuracy FTW!) and he had no problem tracking points.
I like the image of warming up a bit before firing off a rage power, but that would increase the actual point cost of rage powers and limit severely their usefulness. I don't see the barbarian waiting to get madder while in a grapple before firing off Animal Fury.
Well, I meant the "build up" mechanic as a replacement to rage points.
Keep that the Barbarian's rage can be used x-number of rounds but alter it so those rounds can be split up how ever the players wants thru out the day (think along the lines of the paladin's lay on hands ability or boots of speed haste effect). If the number of build up rounds were kept on the low side, say 2-3 rounds for the Knock Down rage power, it may work.
if someone already mentioned this and i over looked it sorry, but as far as backward compatibility and converting characters from old adventures to this one. couldnt you just offer any barbarian with extended and extra rage extra rage points for those feats?
the extra math on the other hand was welcomed in our group. itgave the experienced players a little something to do. before now the barbarian was reserved for new players bogged down with learning the game and no room in the old noggin for extra math.
My barbarian player is a power gamer and even though he could probably abuse the hell out of the point system he really dislikes the points, though he loves the powers.
He said if he wanted to play with points he'd play a psion. When he's playing a Barbarian he wants to smash monsters' faces in.
I agree completely. When I play barbarians, I don't want to count points either. So I don't. And if anyone asks how many Hit Points I have left, I coyly answer "Enough."
Not to be snarky, but you can't get away from all math in a table-top RPG. You have to add dice results, combat modifiers, track HP. Rage points are no big deal. I usually write my Raging attack line in the weapon slot below my standard attack routine, and I'll probably use the ammunition boxes to tick off rage points.
Second, you should be able to go over your points limit!
Ooh! Nice idea! I like it.... Not sure on the maths, but great idea. Perhaps based at a rate similar to the point burn on Psionics? Hmm....
Thanks!
tfad
Here's a variant idea, if you run a particularly grim 'n' gritty campaign: keep the costs the same, but instead of giving the barbarian a pool of free "rage points," make him burn hp (1:1) to rage and use the rage powers. His "pool" would potentially be WAY bigger that way, but he'd exponentially increase his chances of dying at the end of the rage.
I saw the Rage Points and thought, oooo. It's an interesting way to keep barbarians fun while not making them just another fighter variant. Plus, when I rebuilt my old AD&D character to use Pathfinder, the combination of 3.5 psionics and Pathfinder Rage Points meshed well. From a compatibility standpoint maybe they're not the best, but that could be solved by turning the rage powers into barbarian specific feats and selecting one as he/she levels up.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I saw the Rage Points and thought, oooo. It's an interesting way to keep barbarians fun while not making them just another fighter variant. Plus, when I rebuilt my old AD&D character to use Pathfinder, the combination of 3.5 psionics and Pathfinder Rage Points meshed well. From a compatibility standpoint maybe they're not the best, but that could be solved by turning the rage powers into barbarian specific feats and selecting one as he/she levels up.
No they shouldn't be feats... they should be class abilities chosen at the given levels, just like rogues get their talents.
I am surprised that people think they are difficult to manage at high levels.
Granted we are only 6th level at the moment in the play test, but I don't see much difference in tracking hit points as tracking rage points. Now high level spell casters I do find difficult to run at high level, tracking when spells expire, the bonuses that stack or overlap from spells and even the number of spells left are a book keeping task. Counting down from a high number does not seem a problem to me. I find the spell casters slow play down the most.
I still personally like the points and the barbarian in the group (who was notorious for losing track of when his rage ended in 3.5) is finding them much easier to use.
I converted one of my old characters across the other day who is a 15th level barbarian, yes he has a lot of points and several powers to use, but none of it is a problem for me to book keep.
All my opinion, as we have yet to play test anything above 6th level.
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Any insight from Jason or Erik?
Obviously, opinions vary. I appreciate the idea of testing a new mechanic for rage, but additional mechanics were a strong reason for not allowing certain other "offical" sources in my ongoing campaign (such as Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, and for awhile, even psionics!)
As a DM, I have a lot to plan for a session every week. Adding more mechanics tends to slow me down. Creating NPCs, a storyline that involves and motivates the PCs, stating monsters, creating encounters... as a DM, sometimes you have to draw the line somewhere. (As an aside, this is one reason why we developed our consolidated skill system for the "3.75" game I helped create and playtest prior to Pathfinder.) I like the flavor of the Rage Powers; I just think that the mechanic could be more standard for other class abilities. With Rage Points setting an example, how long before we have Spell Points, Smite Points, Wild Points, Divine Points, Adrenale Points, Sneak Points... wait, isn't that 4E?
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I read about halfway into this before I felt like jumping in. The general feel I keep seeing is that they are great and uncomplicated just fine when the players use low level characters, but they get too much to manage at high levels.
My question is, when has high level combat ever been anything BUT complicated? A 20th level Fighter or Barbarian may have simple mechanics, but they have a wealth of combat options available, likely plenty of magic items to augment their abilities, and high level opponents with a bevy of abilities. Casters are even more complicated, with their dozens of spells available.
I don't think comparing a mechanic to 20th level and calling it 'complicated' is a good argument. Everything is complicated at 20th level. Heck, the bar starts rising in terms of complication once you really hit 10th, or even earlier if you're a caster.
I think the new mechanic for the Barbarian is a good one, and very easy to keep track of. If you are a player that can't handle complicated stuff that well, then likely you will be starting out at 1st or 5th level, when it's uncomplicated anyways. If you are a player that can't handle complicated things very easily, why in the world are you creating a 20th level character? That's one of the most complicated processes out there, no matter what class you're playing.
So please, when we talk complicated, avoid using the 'its complicated at 20th level' argument. We know, everything is. If a player is at 20th, likely he or she can handle that small added level of complexity. The question for this mechanic should instead be "Is it better than rage/day?" That's all.
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We have not playtested the Barbarian yet, but we do all agree that while the Rage Points might work perfectly fine, they "feel" wrong for a Barbarian.
They would not feel so odd if the other classes had something similar. In Iron Heroes they used a lot of Pools for classes and they worked great. With Monte Cook joining the design team we may see more that route. If so I have no objections at all. But should the Barbarian alone be the class with a Pool, it seems a bit odd.
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We have not playtested the Barbarian yet, but we do all agree that while the Rage Points might work perfectly fine, they "feel" wrong for a Barbarian.
If you think of the rage points as the anger/adrenaline pool the barbarian can channel, does it feel less odd?
They would not feel so odd if the other classes had something similar. In Iron Heroes they used a lot of Pools for classes and they worked great. With Monte Cook joining the design team we may see more that route. If so I have no objections at all. But should the Barbarian alone be the class with a Pool, it seems a bit odd.
Barbarian is not the only class with a depleting resource managed by a daily pool. We have:
1. pools of points (barbarian - rage, paladin - lay on hands)2. pools of slots (spontaneous casters)
3. pools of spell levels (conversion into cure/inflict spells).
We have not playtested the Barbarian yet, but we do all agree that while the Rage Points might work perfectly fine, they "feel" wrong for a Barbarian.
The odd thing is that the 3rd edition barbarian has always had a pool of points! They just called them "uses of rage" before. Would it sound better if they called the points "rounds of rage" instead? (E.g. "This ability costs three rounds of rage.") Or is it just because the number is much bigger (e.g. 150 rage points/rounds of rage er day vs. rage 4 times per day)?
We have not playtested the Barbarian yet, but we do all agree that while the Rage Points might work perfectly fine, they "feel" wrong for a Barbarian.The odd thing is that the 3rd edition barbarian has always had a pool of points! They just called them "uses of rage" before. Would it sound better if they called the points "rounds of rage" instead? (E.g. "This ability costs three rounds of rage.") Or is it just because the number is much bigger (e.g. 150 rage points/rounds of rage er day vs. rage 4 times per day)?
Thats what I suggested earlier. The term points is so ingrained with psionics it just doesn't carry over well thematically in representing a barbarian's rage IMO.
This may be a poor comparison, but it would be like suddenly calling psionic powers "spells". It just doesn't feel right.
Personally, in general, I'd scale both the number of rage points down and the costs.
Sure. But there's a certain elegance to having "one round of rage" as the base unit.
Well I like the rage points and when we play this week our Barbarian Girl will I think pick it up fast and enjoy immensly the options given to her as a Barbarian with Rage points. If she doesn't I'll let you know. But were all having fun so far with Alpha
Some people hate it some people love it. It seems the majority of people who dislike rage points are those who don't want to have to keep another points tally. It comes down to individual gamers and their gaming styles and preferences.
I really like the idea of regaining (or possibly even gaining) rage points by accomplishing various actions, but can see how such a system might be open to abuse. It also smacks of WOW a bit, which is not what I really want to see in Pathfinder.
Considering you add your Con bonus every level to your rage points I can't see how the abilities should be lessened in cost. I do think new abilities could be implemented, though (just like they have talked about in the other barbarian thread).
I think Paizo should keep the rage point system. If people don't want to use it they can use the old 3.5 PHB barbarian instead.