Frank Banned?


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Am I a bad person that the thread made me smile wryly? It's sort of like a distorted mirror...

Scarab Sages

FabesMinis wrote:
Am I a bad person that the thread made me smile wryly? It's sort of like a distorted mirror...

Then - look closely and you don't need us to answer that question about your chracter ;)

Dark Archive

FabesMinis wrote:
Am I a bad person that the thread made me smile wryly?

I hear orcs don't have problems with such behavior, which they actually encourage. Unlike humans who have the guilt thing.


I'd bet Frank plays a mean minatures game in person, though.

In regards to arguments, though not to Frank, I try to remember this advice: 'In an arguement with a fool, all appear foolish.'

Other important adice to remember: 'Never eat anything bigger than your head.'

I don't recall where i heard either one.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
piers wrote:

He's said he's not coming back.

No loss.

Well, I'd say "He's not coming back, and that's probably for the better." He's burned this bridge with those posts over there.

But I wouldn't say "No loss." I've had instructors who were miserable people to know or interact with, but who knew their subjects well. Frank reminds me of them. He brought up several problematic aspects of D&D that I had never considered, and then demanded that Pathfinder RPG had to address them.

Spoiler:

Role-playing games try to create verisimilitude, and therefore have "rules gaps" that lie in the purview of the GM to address. This means that, say, someone with a video-game mentality, expecting the entire game moderation to come from the rules themselves, can exploit those gaps and loopholes. I think every game --yes, even Shadowrun-- has these.

Frank --and "Le Fou" to a lesser extent-- took it upon themselves to address some of those rules gaps (like infinite wealth at 9th level -- that's something that every DM would kibosh, but they're looking at the rules from a video game, moderatorless, perspective).

That was useful. If he'd been constitutionally capable of doing so in reasoned discourse, I would have continued to learn things from him, the boards would have some deep ideas to consider, and the Pathfinder RPG might have been stronger.

Scarab Sages

niel wrote:


Other important adice to remember: 'Never eat anything bigger than your head.'

I don't recall where i heard either one.

Probably Garfield (I remember it has something to do with watermelons and whole fried chicken)

Dark Archive

feytharn wrote:
niel wrote:


Other important adice to remember: 'Never eat anything bigger than your head.'

I don't recall where i heard either one.

Probably Garfield (I remember it has something to do with watermelons and whole fried chicken)

Fried Chicken... yum!

Eating one now.


Feytharn wrote:

niel wrote:

Other important adice to remember: 'Never eat anything bigger than your head.'

I don't recall where i heard either one.

Probably Garfield (I remember it has something to do with watermelons and whole fried chicken)

No, it was earlier than that. I recall an illustration of 'head vs watermelon= wrong' next to 'much bigger head vs melon= right'.


I won't be disappointed if Frank and K don't return.

Frank specifically had some good posts and ideas, and if he was complimented, or if another poster gave him a little ego stroke, he could be quite insightful. The guy has some talent for design.

The problem is, he never made an effort to act civil. You can disagree with someone without punctuating it without saying something like: "this is not only wrong, it's negatively intelligent as I feel more stupid having read it."

That's not an actual Frank quote that I know of, but that's typical of how I perceived Frank as disagreeing with someone, and not just when he was under fire. That was typical of him just not agreeing with a posited idea. My perception anyway.

If the price of a perfect RPG is putting up with that, I don't need perfection. I appreciate Frank's positive contributions to making the game better, but if Paizo had hired him, just as a hypothetical example, I'd stop buying their products. As a customer I wouldn't put up with his BS. As just another poster I could ignore him if I wanted.

I was stunned when Grimcleaver started a thread in the d20 sub-board praising him some time ago. To avoid trolling and grief, I just refrained from comment at all.

From personal experience, in the first week some of my players posted their thoughts on PFRPG Alpha 1, and Frank Trollman took a piss all over whatever they had to say. They never really posted again. They've told me, "You're in that crowd that hangs out at the Paizo board, so it's probably different for you, but we don't have the time to screw around with people like (Frank Trollman)."

And for me that says it all.

Everybody has a bad day and says something they regret, particularly me. Nevertheless, not every day can be a 'bad day' with a free license to talk down to everyone.

Dark Archive

Read the thread. Closed the Firefox tab. Don't have anything positive to say, so I'll just shut up my mouth.

As much as I value different opinions, and take in high consideration both ideas opposing my own ones and hard logic (for obvious reasons), I'm under the "no loss" flag.


...and there was much rejoicing.


*deleted*

After some consideration, I'll better hold my piece on this.


Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Velderan wrote:
When did everyone get so thin-skinned?

When the ozone layer grew thick enough to protect our epidermis from a variety of harmful space radiations.

Thank you, I'll be here all week.

Oh God it burns. The worst part is, I somehow walked into it...


Evil_Wizards wrote:

*deleted*

After some consideration, I'll better hold my piece on this.

I think I know what you mean. Part of me does wonder if this was necessary.

But I won't retract what I wrote above, but I did go just read Frank's latest posts.

::shakes head::

It was an on again off again thing. Sometimes he was great, sometimes he wasn't. Sometimes you just can't go for that "edgy shock jock" way of talking when you're trying to convince people that you're correct. Not everybody can pull that off, and even the ones that can sometimes go too far and get knocked down.

Here's a real Frank example:

Frank wrote:
If you make one of these bad responses, you are wrong. You are a bad person at this point. Your arguments make the world a worse place to be in.

Now I'm not a dumbass, I can surmise that he didn't mean this literally. 'You cause suffering with your point of view', is just a ridiculous statement.

On the other hand, if I was on the receiving end of that, would I be pissed off? You betchya! And does it require me to pissed off for you to make your counter-point? No.. You can show grace to people you don't agree with. You don't have to hold their hand and placate 'em, but you don't need to pour derision on them either.

And I never saw Jason react the way that Frank characterized him, as a weak, sniveling baby. It made me angry just to read it.


I'll be dissapointed if he doesn't come back. I agreed with him about most things that he posted (though, I personally liked the new sorc stuff and don't want fighters to become flying ninja gods of destruction). My question is where is the line drawn? Do I have to be paranoid about getting banned because I can get riled up? Probably not, but the concern remains.


Frank wrote:
If you make one of these bad responses, you are wrong. You are a bad person at this point. Your arguments make the world a worse place to be in.

See, now I think that's funny. Doesn't really add to the argument, but still funny. Maybe my friends are all d*cks....

Scarab Sages

Velderan wrote:
Frank wrote:
If you make one of these bad responses, you are wrong. You are a bad person at this point. Your arguments make the world a worse place to be in.
See, now I think that's funny. Doesn't really add to the argument, but still funny. Maybe my friends are all d*cks....

That is the sort of joke you should only really make with a really, really, really, good friend. And only then if your friends are in excellent, jovial moods. And only of you think it funny when they say that sort of thing about you.

This sort of humor when attempted with total strangers, people who are having a bad day, or someone you are trying to impress with your personality is always a mistake in the long run.

That being said, having read what was written elsewhere makes me think its not so much an attempt at humor as it is just the way that Frank thinks.


Frank wrote:
If you make one of these bad responses, you are wrong. You are a bad person at this point. Your arguments make the world a worse place to be in.
Velderan wrote:
See, now I think that's funny. Doesn't really add to the argument, but still funny. Maybe my friends are all d*cks....
Wicht wrote:

That is the sort of joke you should only really make with a really, really, really, good friend. And only then if your friends are in excellent, jovial moods. And only of you think it funny when they say that sort of thing about you.

This sort of humor when attempted with total strangers, people who are having a bad day, or someone you are trying to impress with your personality is always a mistake in the long run.

Aptly put, I will not belabor further.


niel wrote:
Feytharn wrote:

niel wrote:

Other important adice to remember: 'Never eat anything bigger than your head.'

I don't recall where i heard either one.

Probably Garfield (I remember it has something to do with watermelons and whole fried chicken)

No, it was earlier than that. I recall an illustration of 'head vs watermelon= wrong' next to 'much bigger head vs melon= right'.

It did have a cat connection, but niel is right, it was earlier. It was the title of a book by B. Kliban, who also wrote Cat, which was a big hit in 1975.


The Paizo boards have always been a relaxed place for me, the fact that someone could get banned from here just tells me he had to have had it coming for a long time.
Im under the same flag as Golem 101


Kirth Gersen wrote:

Sadly, all I got from following that last link is a rant about how game design should be purely mathematical, and that "flavor opinions" are totally irrelevant.

If that were the case, I'd be playing Go, not D&D.

Game designers should be obsessed with math, so that players don't have to be.

Dark Archive

Orion Anderson wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:

Sadly, all I got from following that last link is a rant about how game design should be purely mathematical, and that "flavor opinions" are totally irrelevant.

If that were the case, I'd be playing Go, not D&D.

Game designers should be obsessed with math, so that players don't have to be.

Game designers shouldn't obsess players with their math either.


golem101 wrote:


Game designers shouldn't obsess players with their math either.

What does this even mean? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. the goal of design, especially of a tweak like this to an existing system, isn't to make people play a certain way, but to make the game work as well as possible for whatever style of play people do play. A designer can't really make a player obsessed with anything, because designers and players don't really interact.

Scarab Sages

Orion Anderson wrote:
A designer can't really make a player obsessed with anything, because designers and players don't really interact.

Not to be snarky, but I don't know that I would trust the game design of a designer who did not interact with players.


Orion Anderson wrote:


What does this even mean? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. the goal of design, especially of a tweak like this to an existing system, isn't to make people play a certain way, but to make the game work as well as possible for whatever style of play people do play. A designer can't really make a player obsessed with anything, because designers and players don't really interact.

I see what you're saying Orion, but to try to redirect the thread back to the core topic... you're talking about a desired end (a better game), whereas it is being questioned what means are justified to bring that about?

I'm not speaking for Golem101, I'm just pointing out that Frank's posting privileges weren't suspended because of his passion, skill, or even obsession with mathematics and game theory. It was because of his behavior.

People are saying that it doesn't matter if Frank was some genius. He's not forgiven his extreme behavior or his eccentricities. Or not by some anyway.

Any discussion of math is just a segue from the real issue.

Sovereign Court

I'm fond of Frank's critical analysis, but I think he's a good metatextual example of the dangers of making charisma a dump stat.

Had he been smoother in his delivery, he would have had a monumental affect on this game. He's really good at what he does. Oh well.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Well, I am not going to start posting any sort of response to their ranting and raving on another forum. They could not seem to post in a polite and respectful manner to the other posters on these boards, so they were given a break. Despite what Frank might be saying elsewhere, I did appreciate his points and it is too bad that his tone prevents him from participating further.

I am going to let this drop now. I have more important work to be doing.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Sovereign Court

Yeah, what are you doing posting here! Get back to work on Alpha 3! I want my monk and ranger ASAP! Just kidding. Seriously, don't let us posters sidetrack you from your work unless you see a brilliant idea you absolutely must use. Keep up the good work, Jason. We all appreciate it.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Well, I am not going to start posting any sort of response to their ranting and raving on another forum. They could not seem to post in a polite and respectful manner to the other posters on these boards, so they were given a break. Despite what Frank might be saying elsewhere, I did appreciate his points and it is too bad that his tone prevents him from participating further.

I am going to let this drop now. I have more important work to be doing.

GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN, AND MAKE ME SOME BARD, BIYATCH!

*ducks and hides*

;-p

Liberty's Edge

StarMartyr365 wrote:

I'm not going to point fingers at anyone or calling anyone out but I think it would be a good idea if we all remembered that we are all on the same team and we all share a common goal.

Our goal?

Save the best edition of Dungeons and Dragons ever from extinction.*

I am a relative newcomer to these boards and I have noticed that we seem to be a small community of dedicated individuals who truly love the game. The ideas that bounce around the feedback forums are simply astounding! We often agree on the what but have many different theories on the how. Because we are such a small community none of this awesomeness will see the light of day of we keep bickering and shouting at each other.

Civil discourse is the only way to accomplish our goal. Paizo are going above and beyond the call of duty to make us a part of the process that will allow our favorite pastime to survive. We owe it to them to conduct ourselves as adults and to at least pretend that we were socialized and taught how to behave at some point in our lives. Abrasive, overbearing, condescending self-righteousness adds nothing to these discussions. In fact, that kind of attitude only makes the job that much more difficult.

So let's get back to the task at hand so we can all enjoy an amazing iteration of our favorite hobby come Aug. 2009. No matter how you feel personally about someone else's ideas please temper your words with respect and courtesy.
We really are on the same team.

Let's Roll Some Dice.

SM

*IMHO

StarMartyr365, thank you for saying it with grace and style. I do not know you but I like you anyway!

The only thing I can add is that in the end, it is a game, and it is supposed to be fun, and if it stops being fun at any point, including playtest conversations, then there is always Poker, wii, or a Red Sox game available instead.


Velderan wrote:
Oh God it burns. The worst part is, I somehow walked into it...

Cosmo has spent the better part of his life wondering how he wandered into my latest joke.

I've spent the better part of my life wondering how I come up with this stuff.

Seriously, tip your wait staff. I'm here all week.

FYI, no one got "banned." A few folks got a "timeout." If they're angry they were put in timeout and don't wish to return, that's sad but I won't lose any sleep. Our messageboards are not a flamewar platform from which to launch attacks on PRPG playtesters.

Let's focus on moving forward and continuing the playtest discussion and let this little topic go the way of the dodo.


Sadly, this isn't the first board where I've seen something like this happen to Mr. Trollman. I've never interacted with him directly, but his approach to discussion and debate tends to abrade much of the goodwill his obvious facility with rule systems would garner.

Scarab Sages

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Cosmo has spent the better part of his life wondering how he wandered into my latest joke.

I wandered into a joke once....


Orion Anderson wrote:

Game designers should be obsessed with math, so that players don't have to be.

But they also have to be pretty judicious about it. As with any mathematical modeling, there are numerous approaches to take. And with a game, the choice is partly a matter of art as well.

Grand Lodge

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I have more important work to be doing.

GO JASON GO!

@benjamin billings - I'll be here until they unplug the servers. There are some really good people here who know how to articulately express themselves and can handle someone not only disagreeing with them but also having a different opinion. I've seen so many cool ideas here that I would never have thought of. A few of those ideas will absolutely make it into my homebrew. I really like the atmosphere here. I feel that I can throw out some random half-baked idea I have and get some positive feedback that will help me in my own game. I honestly haven't seen that anywhere else.

So let's get some dirt on these corpses and get back to the table.

SM


Aberzombie wrote:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Cosmo has spent the better part of his life wondering how he wandered into my latest joke.
I wandered into a joke once....

So this Disturbing Customer Servant and this Undead wander into a joke. And the joketender says, "Hey, you can come in here if you want, but considering what your friend eats, we'd rather he stays outside," So the Undead says, "See, Cosmo, I'm not the only one grossed out by all your delivery pizza orders."

StarMartyr365 wrote:

There are some really good people here...

So let's get some dirt on these corpses and get back to the table.

Careful with the dirt. Some of the really good people are corpses.


Don't hate on Frank. Again, his tactless approach to human interaction does not diminish his knowledge of mechanical issues. Yes, Frank's ego is only matched by his total post count in a number of other forums, and he's rude and undiplomatic, and he has a comically-oversized axe to grind with intelligent design theory, and he is foul-mouthed...but that doesn't make him any less of a valuable playtester. (It also doesn't make his posts any less entertaining to read.) In fact, I suspect it's quite the opposite--his "cut to the chase" method of posting indicates an analytical, details-oriented mind.

Similarly, K is indescribably stubborn. I've had debates with him in the past, and he refuses to budge an inch for anyone. However, that doesn't make him any less of a D&D system-monkey, and his status as a CO board regular is well-deserved.

Also, I don't know Frank at all (save for the fact that he seems to have a billion posts on other forums), but I got the joke he was making.


With all due respect, and I'm only doing this because it got posted to again, lets just let this one die. I don't think there is any point of going round and round on this one and I think its just time to move on.


Maybe it needs to be turned into a SMURF thread. Everybody likes smrufs, don't they?

Silver Crusade

Psychic_Robot wrote:
Don't hate on Frank. Again, his tactless approach to human interaction does not diminish his knowledge of mechanical issues.

But it is counter-productive.

Then again, all of us staying on this subject is too.


One might say that one has to have a certain "learning resistance" when getting banned/suspended from several forums for the same reasons.

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8922

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1016146&page=3


Your links arent working.


Evil_Wizards wrote:


therpgsite

gleehax

Fixified


Joshua J. Frost wrote:

I've spent the better part of my life wondering how I come up with this stuff.

Seriously, tip your wait staff. I'm here all week.

May I shine your boots, boss?


Honestly, when someone repetitively makes the same social mistakes over and over like this, I tend to question whether they have Asperger's Syndrome and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Having taught a few kids with Asperger's, I can tell you that they can't help it: their social difficulties or the intense enthusiasm are hard-wired. With help, they can channel this behavior into VERY socially useful forms and become quite successful. Their tone is deeply influenced by how well their loved ones helped them weather the social disappoints they've faced. I've had kids who were sweethearts and kids who were a ... handful.

Wikipedia gives a good intro. Perhaps I'm off-base. You be the judge:

Quote:

Unlike those with autism, people with AS are not usually withdrawn around others; they approach others, even if awkwardly, for example by engaging in a one-sided, long-winded speech about a favorite topic while being oblivious to the listener's feelings or reactions, such as signs of boredom or haste to leave. This social awkwardness has been called "active but odd". This failure to react appropriately to social interaction may appear as disregard for other people's feelings, and may come across as insensitive. The cognitive ability of children with AS often lets them articulate social norms in a laboratory context, where they may be able to show a theoretical understanding of other people’s emotions; they typically have difficulty acting on this knowledge in fluid, real-life situations, however. People with AS may analyze and distill their observation of social interaction into rigid behavioral guidelines and apply these rules in awkward ways—such as forced eye contact—resulting in demeanor that appears rigid or socially naïve. Childhood desires for companionship can be numbed through a history of failed social encounters.

... People with Asperger syndrome display behavior, interests, and activities that are restricted and repetitive and are sometimes abnormally intense or focused. They may stick to inflexible routines or rituals, move in stereotyped and repetitive ways, or preoccupy themselves with parts of objects.

Pursuit of specific and narrow areas of interest is one of the most striking features of AS. Individuals with AS may collect volumes of detailed information on a relatively narrow topic such as dinosaurs or deep fat fryers, without necessarily having genuine understanding of the broader topic. For example, a child might memorize camera model numbers while caring little about photography. This behavior is usually apparent by grade school, typically age 5 or 6 in the U.S. Although these special interests may change from time to time, they typically become more unusual and narrowly focused, and often dominate social interaction so much that the entire family may become immersed. ...

There's a lot more and some of it doesn't fit. But perhaps it's something to think about next time you feel your anger rising.


Kruelaid wrote:
Fixified

Thanks. *feels stupid*

According to K's statement, ENWorld has to be added, too.

@ roguerouge
The wise man doesn't blame the rain for getting him wet. But he still values an umbrella.


These aren't social mistakes because there's no one to be friends with.

Honestly, you're names on a message board. I could walk by you on the street today and not know who you are. But if you were on fire I would throw some water on you. But on a message board, why bother? Ones and zeroes, man. Ones and zeroes.

No, really. You're creating a community to gain feedback on a game system. That's what you're doing. Politeness can kiss my ass if being impolite makes a better game system. Really, what are you trying to do? MAKE A BETTER GAME. Who gives a crap if you're polite in doing it?

I would much rather Paizo yank D&D3.5E from the depths of despair and make it a coherent role-playing game system than worry about who's being nice to whom. The former is a worthwhile goal; on the Internet the latter is pointless.

What are we after in the end? A good game. Who cares how we get there? So a few babies get smacked, a couple of lamerz get dissed, a handful of feelings are hurt. Is this really important in the grand scheme?

Dude, make a good game. If that means listening to Frank, so be it. If that means banning him, so be it. But don't do either in the name of hurt feelings, for heaven's sakes. Nobody thinks a game sucks or doesn't suck because someone's feelings are hurt in the process.

Paizo, you're not my friend. You're a company. The people on this board aren't my friends; they're digits. Paizo, make a good game, and do what you must to make a good game.


ROBERT HARRIS 22 wrote:

These aren't social mistakes because there's no one to be friends with.

Honestly, you're names on a message board.

...

Paizo, you're not my friend. You're a company. The people on this board aren't my friends; they're digits. Paizo, make a good game, and do what you must to make a good game.

This hardly deserves a response... no wait, it DOESN'T deserve one at all. Can I write f&@&tard? No.... Oh well.


niel wrote:

I'd bet Frank plays a mean minatures game in person, though.

In regards to arguments, though not to Frank, I try to remember this advice: 'In an arguement with a fool, all appear foolish.'

Other important adice to remember: 'Never eat anything bigger than your head.'

I don't recall where i heard either one.

My father once told me, when I was very young, "Don't piss on your feet."

Good advice, unless you've been stung by a jellyfish.

Dark Archive

ROBERT HARRIS 22 wrote:
What are we after in the end? A good game. Who cares how we get there?

I do.

It seems to me that also a good number of fellow Paizonians do the same.
I have a strong feeling that the very company staff that frequently appear on these boards (Eric, Joshua, James, Jason, Lisa, Vic, Gary, Cosmo, and others too) are firmly behind this kind of approach to the communal game design process.

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