I think you are mistaken, because Paizo operates with a very high level of transparency, and one of the postmonsters would have made an announcement on the thread if there were a ban, with a solid reason for it, expressed nicely.
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The Gaming Den is a small RPG message-board. I can't link to the post mentioned above, because the forums seem to be unavaiable at the moment.
Give them some credit, and don't leap to conclusions. You come across as a bit...strident. Perhaps it would be a good idea to check the tone of your post, and express your concern a bit more clearly, perhaps with a link to the post in question, or at least a summary of the evidence that supports your suspicions.
Maybe he was banned from that site
I dont think Frank should be banned he just needs not to be so personal in some of his posts
But that is true for alot of people on here
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Accord to a post on the gaming den. Frank Trollman is no longer able to post. Is this really how people making thoughtful contributions to the system being treated or is it merely a miss understanding which could be cleared up?
Howdy. I have no offical say about Frank, or anybody else, here, but I can give you my take.
Frank Trollman's posts here have been an amazing mix of (a) cogent, useful analysis, and (b) over the top hostility.
I have seen people say things like: "[User], you are a terrible human being and a terrible scientist." or "That those smear campaigns are directed at me personally makes me an interested party of course - but he's still wrong.... Basically, he's just a jerk." or "I've explained logs several times on this board and it is beginning to sound shrill and annoying. If you seriously don't understand it, you are welcome to email me on the subject, and I'll write out the math in long form and short words." -- but I've never given them much respect.
In several of the Pathfinder development threads, people had begun a civil discourse on some aspect of the rules, and then Frank came in, with italics, and full caps and bold, and told people they were "a bad human being. Your presense makes the game hobby worse." And K --whom I've begun to think of as "Le Fou"-- followed along, inciting those people who weren't caught in Frank's original explosion.
And people have stopped talking about the topic at hand to try to deal with the bombast.
Jason has said that it's been taking up his time, that it's been derailing the discourse, and that it needed to stop. He's said this repeatedly.
If Frank has indeed been banned here --and I don't have any information that he has, maybe he just had an appointment this morning-- I'm sorry to see the boards go without Frank's insights and analysis for a week. I'm hoping to see him again, next week, with a better understanding about what the Pathfinder development team is looking for.
--EDIT: And I wanted to extend to you my compliments, ckaftrica. Your insights into d20 mechanics and explanations for suggested modifications have been really helpful (well, to me; I can't speak for Jason).
Is this really how people making thoughtful contributions to the system being treated or is it merely a miss understanding which could be cleared up?
Just a question because if people with his ability of analysis is going to be banned, I don't have much hope that this product will become something I'll end up wanting to invest in.
I have no idea if he was banned or not, but I don't consider posts like the one below to be either thoughtful or meaningful. Obvious Lich loved and Frank disagree, it's a shame they can't do it in a manner fitting to adults. If they both got banned I wouldn't have a problem with it. There are a lot of other insightful people out there and maybe they would post more if they didn't have to worry about being jumped on and personally insulted because someone didn't agree with their position.
Lich Loved, you are a terrible human being and a terrible scientist. Not only have you created not one, but now at least two (or more?) threads specifically to flame me, but there were seriously already threads on exactly this concept that you had already been linked to. You deliberately created a flame thread in a place I rarely go and then didn't link to it in any of the ongoing discussions. You are a lousy debater and a morally decrepit individual.But you are also just like Ben Stein. You argue against reason and science, but you don't even have a testable model to replace things with. Seriously, you offer absolutely nothing to this or any other discussion. You have no clue how to design an experiment to test whether something is balanced to your entirely subjective and unreasoned liking, and have not even proposed a methodology by which anyone might be able to do so.
I vote that this thread be locked, and with prejudice. It was created in bad faith by a person of no character for the explicit purpose of flaming another person. Lich Loved, and everyone who aids him in any way in his pathetic project should be ashamed.
Edit: Uhhh... What CM said..
Here is a thought. Let Paizo deal with Paizo's business. We don't know all of the ins and outs, and even if we can surmise what is going on, that's not the point.
Paizo has been absolutely great to its fans, and they have asked for a few things for those participating on the playtest boards. Vic even pointed out that the playtest boards aren't quite like other areas of the forums.
If we want to help the process and help to shape the game, we need to do so in a manner that is actually, well, helpful to the guys at Paizo.
I'm not singling anyone out. But the point is that a lot of discussions get personal, or turn into theoretical discussions of things that will never get used in the game, or are repeats of various posts that have already shown up elsewhere.
Also, I don't remember if it was Jason or Josh, but one of those two fine gentlemen pointed out something that I had said a few weeks ago, that being, if someone disagrees with you, your opinion doesn't "count more" if you managed to put them down or try to discredit them. All you can do is make your opinion known and move on. If you have a good point to make, do so, and then let that be that.
I've disagreed with quite a few posters on these boards over the years, but most of them I really, really like personally because I've tried to keep those disagreements detatched from my opinion of them personally. I would hope that we can all try a little harder to do this from here on out.
But I do know that, as has been said over and over again, the more trouble springs up, the less Jason can actually work on the game, and the more we discuss how or why someone might have been moderated, the less we are helping Paizo actually do what we come to these boards to do.
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Here is a thought. Let Paizo deal with Paizo's business. We don't know all of the ins and outs, and even if we can surmise what is going on, that's not the point.
Paizo has been absolutely great to its fans, and they have asked for a few things for those participating on the playtest boards. Vic even pointed out that the playtest boards aren't quite like other areas of the forums.
If we want to help the process and help to shape the game, we need to do so in a manner that is actually, well, helpful to the guys at Paizo.
I'm not singling anyone out. But the point is that a lot of discussions get personal, or turn into theoretical discussions of things that will never get used in the game, or are repeats of various posts that have already shown up elsewhere.
Also, I don't remember if it was Jason or Josh, but one of those two fine gentlemen pointed out something that I had said a few weeks ago, that being, if someone disagrees with you, your opinion doesn't "count more" if you managed to put them down or try to discredit them. All you can do is make your opinion known and move on. If you have a good point to make, do so, and then let that be that.
I've disagreed with quite a few posters on these boards over the years, but most of them I really, really like personally because I've tried to keep those disagreements detatched from my opinion of them personally. I would hope that we can all try a little harder to do this from here on out.
But I do know that, as has been said over and over again, the more trouble springs up, the less Jason can actually work on the game, and the more we discuss how or why someone might have been moderated, the less we are helping Paizo actually do what we come to these boards to do.
Here, here...
Well said. Better to let things lie then stir things up with speculation. Hopefully everyone will be able tocome back and we can get on with things.
Uhh... there's threads on moderating and trolling in other threads specifically about the web site. This thread should be moved there IMHO.
Trollman had a very...direct way of phrasing things (we shall say), and his tact was nonexistent, and his diplomacy was unarguably that of the "aggressive negotiations" variety.
However, he had very good ideas, and I would say that this outweighed any offenses generated because he understands the mechanics and has demonstrated sufficient creativity/ingenuity/effort to significantly aid in the development process.
Here, here...
Where? Where?
Neither 'hear' nor there.
I really doubt they'd ban him over anything I've seen Trollman say. He's aggressive, but half the time he's being funny (or trying). If they banned him over saying something along the lines of 'you're a terrible human being' I think I'd be done on the forums (and most people would be banned anyway). I mean, come on, that's nothing.
I really doubt they'd ban him over anything I've seen Trollman say. He's aggressive, but half the time he's being funny (or trying). If they banned him over saying something along the lines of 'you're a terrible human being' I think I'd be done on the forums (and most people would be banned anyway). I mean, come on, that's nothing.
It's nothing other than being unnecessarily insulting and what is funny about that?
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He's aggressive, but half the time he's being funny (or trying).
Err...Frank is a very many things. Among them: usually right, or at least accurate. He is incredibly analytical, incredibly self-assured (usually, but not always for good reason) and incredibly hostile. But I have never, ever, ever, not even once, gotten the impression he was trying to be funny.
Director of Game Design
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However, he had very good ideas, and I would say that this outweighed any offenses generated because he understands the mechanics and has demonstrated sufficient creativity/ingenuity/effort to significantly aid in the development process.
On this, you would be incorrect. Good ideas do not make up for bad behavior. Driving other posters from a thread and these boards with your posts is not acceptable, even if your ideas are fantastic. This does not just apply to Frank either.
I ask that people post up their ideas. If you can't do that without discrediting someone else or insulting other posters, then perhaps you should hold off on posting until you can.
This thread is being moved to the appropriate folder.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
A few folks from the Pathfinder RPG playtest boards were given a one week timeout. I mentioned it here yesterday.
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A few folks from the Pathfinder RPG playtest boards were given a one week timeout. I mentioned here yesterday.
Oh yeah, I read that. The "psychoanalyzing of mating habits" bit had me spitting Dr. Pepper out of my nose.
A few folks from the Pathfinder RPG playtest boards were given a one week timeout. I mentioned here yesterday.Oh yeah, I read that. The "psychoanalyzing of mating habits" bit had me spitting Dr. Pepper out of my nose.
Reminds me of this slightly NSFW (language) Penny Arcade.
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A few folks from the Pathfinder RPG playtest boards were given a one week timeout. I mentioned here yesterday.Oh yeah, I read that. The "psychoanalyzing of mating habits" bit had me spitting Dr. Pepper out of my nose.
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Welcome to the club.A few folks from the Pathfinder RPG playtest boards were given a one week timeout. I mentioned here yesterday.Oh yeah, I read that. The "psychoanalyzing of mating habits" bit had me spitting Dr. Pepper out of my nose.
/Doff's cap.
Glad to be of service, guvnah!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Reminds me of this slightly NSFW (language) Penny Arcade.
A classic.
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Director of Sales
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A classic.
Reminds me of this slightly NSFW (language) Penny Arcade.
Agreed. :)
Although at first I expected the link to point to their comic dealing with a certain internet theory attributed to John Gabriel. I will not link this comic here, although it has been brought to mind from time to time recently.
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A classic.
Reminds me of this slightly NSFW (language) Penny Arcade.
Thank the gods I didn't have more Dr. Pepper.
I'm glad to hear the "ban" is only for a week, but I do feel that someone needs to point at that regardless of Frank's lack of social graces, almost every time I've read how people respond to HIS threads, it's been with a lot of vitriol.
From stuff like "If you're such a dumb DM that you can't take care of that yourself something is seriously wrong with how you play this game." to other, more insulting things. I don't feel that I need to defend Frank (or K for that matter), but I do believe they've had their views of how discussions are done painted black by responses to their own suggestions and ideas.
Reminds me of this slightly NSFW (language) Penny Arcade.
I think this comic (also NSFW) is more on target.
Edit: Sorry, Cosmo.
He's aggressive, but half the time he's being funny (or trying).Err...Frank is a very many things. Among them: usually right, or at least accurate. He is incredibly analytical, incredibly self-assured (usually, but not always for good reason) and incredibly hostile. But I have never, ever, ever, not even once, gotten the impression he was trying to be funny.
I'm pretty sure calling somebody a bad human being over faulty logic is somebody trying to be funny. When did everyone get so thin-skinned?
I'm pretty sure calling somebody a bad human being over faulty logic is somebody trying to be funny.
You're making an assumption on motivation. And my assumption doesn't match yours in this case. However, assumption are just that. Only the poster truly knows if he is trying to be funny. If he is, I still don't find it funny.
When did everyone get so thin-skinned?
Probably from repetitive behavior. Many people have written stuff that are not appropiate. I've done it. And I have also later realized it and removed some posts that I shouldn't have written. Some people, however, repeatedly write inappropiate responses because they don't feel that they should have to censor themselves while others write them as a means of argumentation.
Can't say I think much of banning Frank harsh as he is.
Wonder who else got the B-smack?
When did everyone get so thin-skinned?
Ditto that.
(Not sayin' Frank wasn't harsh....but)
....anyway, if the playtest forum is oging to be productive it's probably better to clean out the Trollmans....
When did everyone get so thin-skinned?
When the ozone layer grew thick enough to protect our epidermis from a variety of harmful space radiations.
Thank you, I'll be here all week.
Many many many of my posts show as edited, because after I submit them, I stop and try to read them from the perspective of a reader, not a writer.
Upon said reading, I often find it neccessary to alter, remove, or add something to take some of the sting out of my posts.
Paizo is a great community full of intelligent people. And thats the problem. For me at least. I know I'm intelligent, I realize I'm no genius and could certainly apply myself harder, but I am firmly aware that I have raw intellectual talent and a solid education. Does this give me a bit of an ego? You bet. Facts are facts: I'm smarter than 80% of the American population. As are most of the members on this board. Some are probably even in the 90-95% range. I feel miniscule under Yellowdingo's posts.
But does being smarter than most people make me feel like I'm better than them? Yes. It does. Of course it does. It is both natural and logical. Is it politically correct? No. Regardless of logic or politically correctness, do I enjoy having that sort of superiority?
No, I dislike the way I behave when I indulge in such feelings of intellectual superiority. So I try to moderate myself, remember what I learned in college dorms: "different and wrong are two separate things". There are enough people out there (the world and these boards) who can make me look like an uneducated hick in comparison that I have no desire to provoke them by taking an offensive tone.
Just my 2cp.
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I'm not going to point fingers at anyone or calling anyone out but I think it would be a good idea if we all remembered that we are all on the same team and we all share a common goal.
Our goal?
Save the best edition of Dungeons and Dragons ever from extinction.*
I am a relative newcomer to these boards and I have noticed that we seem to be a small community of dedicated individuals who truly love the game. The ideas that bounce around the feedback forums are simply astounding! We often agree on the what but have many different theories on the how. Because we are such a small community none of this awesomeness will see the light of day of we keep bickering and shouting at each other.
Civil discourse is the only way to accomplish our goal. Paizo are going above and beyond the call of duty to make us a part of the process that will allow our favorite pastime to survive. We owe it to them to conduct ourselves as adults and to at least pretend that we were socialized and taught how to behave at some point in our lives. Abrasive, overbearing, condescending self-righteousness adds nothing to these discussions. In fact, that kind of attitude only makes the job that much more difficult.
So let's get back to the task at hand so we can all enjoy an amazing iteration of our favorite hobby come Aug. 2009. No matter how you feel personally about someone else's ideas please temper your words with respect and courtesy.
We really are on the same team.
Let's Roll Some Dice.
SM
*IMHO
The reason people cant link to there boards is because thats there old one and they have moved.
heres the link http://tgdmb.com/
and the thread you are looking for is the one titled (I get the feeling most posters are idiots)
Just to help out:
And, thread link (Language not safe for work). It is his first post in the thread, in the last paragraph.
I do find a certain level of ironic humor in the fact that his buddy K was calling for moderation...
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I'm pretty sure calling somebody a bad human being over faulty logic is somebody trying to be funny. When did everyone get so thin-skinned?
It would be nice to think so, but he made it clear to me he was deliberately trying to browbeat others into taking his view. As to the person he was calling a bad person, he made it quite clear what he thought of him too - it wasn't affectionate irony.
Look, it is a shame Frank is banned because his analysis is invariably very rigorous. But his (and others) problem was to think we were all stupid. Most of us on these boards will back down if we give offence, because we want to keep posting here and participate in a general way. So if we give offence, deliberately or inadvertantly, we will normally find some face-saving solution, usually apologise, and move on. It wasn't possible with Frank - he doesn't care about the Paizo boards as a community, he said somewhere here than once the PF game was ready he would stop posting here anyway, so he had no real stake in his relationships with other board members. As Black Bard says, most of us a bright, thirty- to forty-something professionals. We don't take kindly to being aggressively demeaned on a regular basis. A reaction was inevitable.
But there is a lot of Frank-this, Frank-that. He really understands the rules, but his style of play seems to have been fairly specific. The applicability of what he was interested in seems pretty marginal to my game, at least. It would be nice to have his input, but the process of creating the game will be considerably less turbulent for the Paizo team while he is absent.
Just to help out:
And, thread link (Language not safe for work). It is his first post in the thread, in the last paragraph.
I just read this - I can't believe how abusive to us/Paizo they're being over there! And look at some of the poster's signatures! Just.... wow. Not safe for work? Shouldn't that be 'not safe for anyone, ever'. Maybe if Frank and K were more used to this type of board, well, that could be the reason they thought to behave the way they did.
Peace,
tfad
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After reading Franks last post on that forum i would call for a complete ban on him if possible. Its one thing to disagree with an idea but to use the language he's using is simply not called for.
Also i find it ironic he's saying the staff at Paizo dont know what there doing but all i will say is how many game companies has he ever ran? or how many modules, adventure paths or alternative rule systems has he ever published?
Sorry if i seem to have gone on a rant but to put it bluntly what i have seen Frank say about Jason on that forum quite simply makes me feel sick.
Wow, that was fun to read... what a frickin' ego trip.
Frank should be playing Champions, not D&D.
Sorry if i seem to have gone on a rant but to put it bluntly what i have seen Frank say about Jason on that forum quite simply makes me feel sick.
I'm sure Jason will get over it.
Oh wait, he already is.
He's said he's not coming back.
No loss.
I have nothing to add save for another webcomic that illustrates what forums do to some people...
I don't know who said what to whom, I've been absent lately due to new work prospects, but I agree with both sides. Side A; Quit being sacks of water and vinegar. Side B; Reduce the ozone above your house and work on those epidermal layers.
Be nicer and learn to deal. Damn, I should be a kindergarten teacher or something. [/sarcasm]
EDIT: Wow. Just read the thread in question. Sorry if we don't like your ideas, but that give you no license to be an unbridled [DELETED IN EFFORT TO END NEEDLESS DRAMA].
Sadly, all I got from following that last link is a rant about how game design should be purely mathematical, and that "flavor opinions" are totally irrelevant.
If that were the case, I'd be playing Go, not D&D.
