I really like the removal of XP costs, but the thing that has always bothered me was the time in creating a magic item.
"You need a +1 sword? No problem, give me two days." Now its only a +1 magic weapon but only two days? It just seems too easy.
In place of XP loss how about 1 week per 1,000 gp instead of 1 day per? On the cheaper items it doesn't make that much difference, but the time investment gives a somewhat fantasy literature feel for the more expensive items.
I can see players and maybe even DMs not liking it but I think I may start using it for our group.
I can agree with the idea of increasing the amount of time needed to craft items. It makes perfect sense to me.
But you realize that this suggestion is going to get all kinds of munchkins all kinds of upset. Expect lots of replies griping thusly: "But it's not fair that the wizard should have to take a week off when the rest of the party can keep adventuring and earning XP! Why should my character be penalized?" or "That makes no sense! My character should be able to make artifacts in his sleep and have a copy of the Eye and Hand of Vecna ready by morning!" and such.
In place of XP loss how about 1 week per 1,000 gp instead of 1 day per? On the cheaper items it doesn't make that much difference, but the time investment gives a somewhat fantasy literature feel for the more expensive items.
Lots of people play ongoing campaigns like AoW, Savage Tides or the RotRl. The time investments already make it quite Impossible to craft stuff. You have to save the world and run from one encounter/spotlight to the next or it will be annihilated.
That obviously might not be a big problem if you play your own adventures. If I play for example AoW with a LvL 12 Character I couldnt say "ok you save the world from the evil Worm God, I have to wait the next 16 weeks till I have finished my +4 Item"
Lots of people play ongoing campaigns like AoW, Savage Tides or the RotRl. The time investments already make it quite Impossible to craft stuff. You have to save the world and run from one encounter/spotlight to the next or it will be annihilated...
A valid point, and one that I missed in my previous post. However, I think this is a flaw in the APs and not a flaw in the rules. And, while it makes sense to me to increase the amount of time needed to make items, I see no overwhelming need to change it from where it is.
All XP debt does is delay the XP Cost. They are the same thing. The only difference is when you pay that cost..now or later. This means it is not a replacement for XP Cost. It is just a rewording and a time delay for the same effect. Either way you pay XP to craft. Which I disagree with fundamentally. No other class feature or feat requires XP to function. So either other feats need an XP cost or no feat should require it.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
All XP debt does is delay the XP Cost. They are the same thing. The only difference is when you pay that cost..now or later. This means it is not a replacement for XP Cost. It is just a rewording and a time delay for the same effect. Either way you pay XP to craft. Which I disagree with fundamentally. No other class feature or feat requires XP to function. So either other feats need an XP cost or no feat should require it.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Then again, no other class feature or feat allows you to make your own magic items.
Then again, no other class feature or feat allows you to make your own magic items.All XP debt does is delay the XP Cost. They are the same thing. The only difference is when you pay that cost..now or later. This means it is not a replacement for XP Cost. It is just a rewording and a time delay for the same effect. Either way you pay XP to craft. Which I disagree with fundamentally. No other class feature or feat requires XP to function. So either other feats need an XP cost or no feat should require it.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
True, but it remains there are better mechanics for limiting manufacturing of magic items than spending XP in a system that was never intended to support such a thing. In systems such as Unisystem where xp are spent for everything it makes more sense. Not so much in D&D and D&D derivitives.
Craft pools, research times for specific items or even a system of extended temporary ability/level drain are better choices than spending XP. Upping the GP cost is a tolerable fix for the side effect of making magic items a bit rarer if you dont alter the treaure reward system. The 10,000 to 20,000 gp increase in price of many staves that occured between 3.5 and PFRPG is substantial.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
All XP debt does is delay the XP Cost. They are the same thing. The only difference is when you pay that cost..now or later. This means it is not a replacement for XP Cost. It is just a rewording and a time delay for the same effect. Either way you pay XP to craft. Which I disagree with fundamentally. No other class feature or feat requires XP to function. So either other feats need an XP cost or no feat should require it.The only real difficulty I see with the XP cost system is "backwards travel", especially as regards permanent negative levels and the like but even for just XP expenditure. I have been a proponent of XP costs because it mends that problem. Instead of removing traits from your character, it takes away from half your future XP gains (or all of it if you've been heavily level-drained or the like).
No other class feature or feat allows you to permanently grant new supernatural capabilities to other PCs (or yourself). It makes sense to me that an XP cost should be accrued for it.
No ther feat provides a bonus that can be permanently taken away either. Disposing of the advantage provided by magical items is realtively easy even for non-casters....sunder or disarm come to mind. Magical items are not terribly durable really. You can take away the item, it can be lost, it can be destroyed. And with it goes the xp invested in it.
Whether you pay when you craft or pay later at level up or some such benchmark, that XP is gone. It doesnt really matter much when it goes. As i said it simply delays that "backwards travel".
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I've been considering something like the spell slot magic item creation system. I like the same idea for spells with XP costs. I've been considering implementing an alternative or even optional system for casting spells with big XP costs: The spell slot is "burned out" for a number of days equal to the level of the spell.
This means wishing your intelligence up by two will also mean not having access to two of your 9th level slots for 9 days.
This might prevent abuses of some of the really good xp cost spells from splatbooks. And if I can find a way to make it work with magic item construction, that isnt quite as complex as the one from the PDF, I might have my permanent solution.
As we can read in this tread people that don't want anymore that rule of "XP cost", don't want this rule because... they don't like it, giving no game or meta game explanation to this.
For memory you can not lose a level because of this rule of "XP cost". So what is the real game or meta game problem with this rule ? (Other that I don't like it)
Two flavor reasons:
(1) It is difficult to understand what a PC thinks he is doing when he spends XP. Many groups do not want PCs to be aware of the XP system; it leads to un-fantasy-like behavior. But if the PC doesn't know about XP, how does he think about item creation costs?
(2) NPCs apparently don't gain XP the same way PCs do (at least, the game world is very hard to understand if you allow them to do so). So, how do they make magic items? How do *they* understand that XP cost?
Two gameplay reasons:
(3) If the XP costs are substantial, they will eventually delay a character's going up a level, and that character will therefore be a level lower than the others. Some groups (including mine) find this problematic; we would prefer that the PCs were generally the same level.
(4) If the item-crafting PC makes items for the other PCs, he is paying an individual cost for a group benefit. In some groups this leads to resentment. (A possible fix would be to allow the other PC to pay the XP.)
One variant-rules reason:
(5) If you don't use XP, the mechanic can't be used; therefore it would be nice to have an alternative.
For me personally, reason #4 is not important but all of the others are, and reason #2 is very important.
Mary
If you can't give a reason better than "it just is", than don't give it.
If I have to spell it out for you, you have problems. Do yourself a favor and never get a credit card until you figure out what "debt" means. I'm not going to give you a course in finance management so you'll understand the problem.
I'll give you a hint, though:
The fact you still have blank checks in your checkbook doesn't necessarily mean you still have money in the bank. Deferment doesn't mean an expenditure "goes away".
Incidentally, you should never have an investment portfolio. Ever. You must have real problems with the concept of "retirement income" if you think that there's an intrinsic problem with XP debt, especially given that it solves all of the issues you mentioned in the earlier part of your post, and especially given that the OGL XP debt rules specifically limit the amount of XP debt you can go into (not counting replacing level drains with involuntary XP debt).
That might be a more devastating argument if there was any truth at all to the statement that XP debt solves the problems I mentioned.
How does applying a cost to doing something punish them for doing it?
When the cost is an experience cost, it's a punishment. When it's a monetary cost, it's a purchase.
. . . and frankly, my biggest problem with the XP cost issue is that it's arbitrary and absurd. There's no in-game justification for it, and it interferes with suspension of disbelief.
Perhaps you haven't played before 3rd Edition. There was never an experience cost before, and there was never a problem. I never had PCs sitting around churning out magic items all the time so they could kick more ogre butt, through several different D&D groups, either in games I ran or in games in which I was a player. I rather suspect that anyone running a game where PCs wanted to sit around making magic items all the time were doing it wrong.
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Wow. Looks like I'm in the overwhelming minority on this. I must admit, though, I have an ulterior motive. There are more ways for bad guys to bypass XP costs than good guys. (Sacrifice, anyone?) This makes for good fodder for villains. I've come up with at least one horrific idea for my homebrew game based on XP costs (and the dark craft XP rules in the BoVD) but if Jason really think removing XP costs is an improvement, I'm willing to trust his judgment unless I playtest it and find out otherwise.
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I can agree to the loss of xp, but possibly put a restriction on the total cost of magic items that can be produced at a given level. This will let them get away with "so much", but not bog them down in item creation slogs that prevent in-game play.
AND/OR
Slag the existing magic item system of magic users producing magic items only and instead allow all characters to create magic items based off of their level to let the non-casters have item creation as an option.
Two flavor reasons:(1) It is difficult to understand what a PC thinks he is doing when he spends XP. Many groups do not want PCs to be aware of the XP system; it leads to un-fantasy-like behavior. But if the PC doesn't know about XP, how does he think about item creation costs?
(2) NPCs apparently don't gain XP the same way PCs do (at least, the game world is very hard to understand if you allow them to do so). So, how do they make magic items? How do *they* understand that XP cost?
Two gameplay reasons:
(3) If the XP costs are substantial, they will eventually delay a character's going up a level, and that character will therefore be a level lower than the others. Some groups (including mine) find this problematic; we would prefer that the PCs were generally the same level.
(4) If the item-crafting PC makes items for the other PCs, he is paying an individual cost for a group benefit. In some groups this leads to resentment. (A possible fix would be to allow the other PC to pay the XP.)
One variant-rules reason:
(5) If you don't use XP, the mechanic can't be used; therefore it would be nice to have an alternative.
For me personally, reason #4 is not important but all of the others are, and reason #2 is very important.
Mary
Hmmm... five reasons, five replies :)
(1) The caster is sacrificing some of his soul / power in order to create an enduring msgical effect. Seems reasonable to me. The XP loss is just the game mechanic that signifies this, the "point" aspect of XP making it easy to quantify the loss.
(2) What makes you think that NPCs don't gain XP? They gain levels, and therefore have gained experience. They may not be aware of it as a precisely quantifiable value, which is a game mechanic used to represent and simplify something more complex, but the effects are obvious to them... and a caster would probably be more aware of this nebulous power than your average fighter.
(3) If your characters are that wired about having equal levels, then it could be a problem for you. I doubt most groups are that finicky. Characters die, or are retired, new characters join groups... I doubt they are all going to be the exact same level. At least. without a lot of that old DM magic...
(4) Characters sacrificing for the good of the group... players owing each other ethical debts... seems reasonable to me. Given your typical group one suspects some GP might have changed hands too. Besides, when the caster is making a magic weapon (for example) for that fighter who stands between him and grisly death, there might be an ulterior motive on the caster's part...
(5) If you don't use Xp, I suspect there are a number of other problems that could crop up in the game as well. And there is no reason you couldn't award casters "item creatrion points" as they level up, allowing them to craft artififacts anyway. That would effectively allow them to create items and limit what they could create as well.
I suspect I will continue to use an XP cost for item creation -- it suits my game, has a reasonable cause for suspension of disbelief, and my players are already used to the cost of "makin' magic". Whatever other people decide, the DM is always free to modify the rules for his game, so it's no harm, no foul, whatever the official rules are.
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I have a serious issue with many of my DMs that I play with. Simply put they are all too lazy to use XP! They just let you level up when they feel like it, in fact two sundays ago my character leveled up twice while everyone else leveled up only once, why? because the DM decided it wasnt fair to have me 1 level below the rest of the party with no way of catching up so from now on I level 1 session after the rest. I hate it and have argued in the past that by removing XP tracking you open up a whole list of abusive uses; unbalanced multiclassing, stock piling of items and at higher level the use of XP based spells incorporated into magic wands! My argument falls on deaf ears but they all agree its better to keep a party balanced rather than staggering the party and having to balance encounters to fit.
I agree magic item XP costs need to go and I like the idea that crafting takes more time, however I also agree it doesn't work well for fantasy games.
Heres my solution.
First The cost of XP shouldn't just be wiped out altogether. The additional cost should be represented as something else besides XP. My suggestion would be to make this an additional GP cost that is not included in the market price.
Slippers of Spider Climbing (4,800gp) would cost a wizard an additional 192 gp to create, a Rope of Entanglement (21,000gp) would cost an additional 840gp, and a Robe of Eyes (120,000gp) would cost an additional 4,800gp.
Secondly the time to create an item needs to be put into perspective. remember that PCs are supposed to be above the norm in regards to common folk and their lives revolve around just a few months or years from 1st to 20th. NPCs have less of a need to create items in a hurry. To this end I bring you the Magical Engineer item creation feat.
Note this feat is designed for NPCs but if it fits your campaign you could allow this for PCs as well assuming their is sufficient breaks in the campaign and the rest of the party is willing to hang around while the crafter does his thing.
Magical Engineer [Item Creation]--------------------
You can create Magic Items at a fraction of the cost by expending more time on the process.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: You gain access to Item creation on a global level. You can create magical arms and armor, wands, staves, rods, rings, potions, scrolls, and wondrous items. You must still meet the minimum caster level to create these items according to the following table.
Scrolls: Caster level 1st
Potions: Caster level 3rd
Wondrous Item: Caster level 3rd
Arms and Armor: Caster level 5th
Wands: Caster level 5th
Rods: Caster level 9th
Rings: Caster level 12th
Staves: Caster level 12th
The cost for you to create magic items is equal to 25% of the market price (not 50%) but the time you must invest in creating these items increases dramatically to the regular Item Creation feats. To calculate the amount of time you must invest in creating an item use the following formula;
1 weeks work per 1,000gp of the Base Price (at 25% not 50%)
For example Slippers of Spider Climbing would take a wizard with the craft wondrous item feat 3 days to make (base price 2,400gp) while a wizard with the magical engineer feat would need to spend 2 weeks to create the same item (base price 1,200).
Note this formula is based on the idea of a 5 day week, if your campaign uses longer week days (or does not include holidays) simply use the following formula instead;
1 day of work per 200gp of the Base Price (at 25% not 50%)
----------------------------------------------------------
The reasons or cheaper crafting is because I'm a strong believer that magic items do not lose value like regular items and you do not buy magic items from magic item shops like those shops are some global chain. Merchants who create items should aim to sell items for the Market Price but will not feel cheated if they purchase items at cost. This gives DMs a larger window to barter. just set the lowest cost at 50%, thats still 100% profit for the merchant.
PCs who create items will likely only make a small profit on items they created with some only breaking even if they choose to sell. However the advantage for PCs is they can turn over items far more quickly when they need them most.
This ensures that PCs do not strive to become merchants in magic (although they could take magical engineering for when they retire) while keeping the amount of magic available at a lower end.
Another way of making magic items easier to explain is to call the market price the maximum sale price instead. people seem to think the market price is the standard when in fact its not.
Nice idea, but why not give this basic ability to all full spellcasters (or at least all wizards)?
SIDENOTE: NEVER use an ability timed in weeks! Since every campaign can and often will use a different definition for it.
Just tone down the GP per day:
General feat: 200 GP per day
Special feat: 1000 GP per day.
(Or something like that)
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Yeah was thinking about abandoning the weeks idea when I got to writing the second formula, I guess i just wanted to keep the formula the same as the original.
Good idea to grant this to all spellcasters, I wouldnt limit it to just wizards though, the idea that church acolytes would produce potions, druids offering fetishes to travellers, and even bards crafting magical instruments all have a place.
Lots of people play ongoing campaigns like AoW, Savage Tides or the RotRl. The time investments already make it quite Impossible to craft stuff. You have to save the world and run from one encounter/spotlight to the next or it will be annihilated...A valid point, and one that I missed in my previous post. However, I think this is a flaw in the APs and not a flaw in the rules. And, while it makes sense to me to increase the amount of time needed to make items, I see no overwhelming need to change it from where it is.
I disagree that it's a flaw at all. It's a style of play that doesn't really allow for much item creation, that's all. And I think that's fair. Characters will be forced to think ahead a bit more and commission their custom items rather than make them themselves so that they have more time to finish the adventure at hand. I do think this puts more onus on the DM to provide proper foreshadowing so players can make reasonably good item choices in their plans.
Ultimately, it's a trade-off in styles between edge of the seat serial adventuring and more episodic styles that allow more off-camera downtime. A campaign can include both (which the APs do at various points in the overall plot).
I've never been fond of the XP cost for making items or casting certain major spells. I feel that once and XP is gained, it's gained. Period. It's also why I don't like level-loss.
But I can see why XP was chosen as the cost. It's a real and significant limiter. Who wants to spend them? It stunts your development compared to the rest of the party (or at least has that potential). So, as a metagame mechanic to limit use, it works reasonably well. I think it works better as a means of going into debt to be paid off with future XP gains since then you don't have the ridiculous metagame situation of a PC defering advancement when they have XPs to reach the next level just because they might need to cast a spell that costs XPs.
Plus, the loss of XPs was better than the aging cost imposed by some spells back in 1st edition. I'd hate to go back to that idea. Ugh.
I absolutely love the change. XP is not a resource.
And I have no fear of players flooding the market with magic items, as there's still some things that prevent players and their characters from achieving world domination with cheap magic items.
One of the biggest reasons is that time is still a factor. Creating those magic items takes time, and selling them for more than 50% takes time, too.
I don't know about everyone else, but usually my adventures are on some sort of time table that doesn't wait for the players to take a season off to craft magic items and sell them properly!
Hey there everybody,
I feel the need to point out that we need to be a bit careful in this discussion. We are, in some cases, discussing two different things. Game rule balance and in-world economics. While one does inform the other, it is very simple to add in-world reasons to limit the problems people are bringing up. This, however, is not necessarily a function of the core rules. At the end of the day, magic items are as common in your world as you want them to be, regardless of what the system says you can do. At the moment, I am much more concerned with creating a way that PCs can create items without having it cripple their character (or at the very least, cause some irritating bookkeeping). Most other classes do not require you to spend XP (and hence become less powerful) to utilize the abilities of the class.
I understand some of the reasoning behind it, but the implementation was such that most just avoided it altogether.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hello. There seem to be two primary concerns "Slowed PC Leveling due to experience costs and Crafting Abuse". IMO crafting really only becomes an issue for leveling when it is abused in game since most games do not level the PCs perfectly. Even if a PC is delayed a level a +150% or better increase in PC custom magical gear compared to suggested wealth by level more than compensates for it.
One easy fix is to set a "PF Standard" for PC Crafters by giving them a crafting experience pool per crafting feat that replenishes annually and grows by level to limit the potential abuse in game.
This should very easy to do since the game has a suggested wealth by level default. In a heavy crafting game a DM could tweak it up as desired.
This would be comparable to the ECS Artificer class or the Uneartherd Arcana crafting variant mechanics and would not delay leveling.
This results in more paperwork and record keeping so might not be viewed favorably although it doesn't seem to hurt how well the Artificer class is received in game.
A second very easy fix is to qualify PF crafting feats with with a single sentence similar to the PHB Leadership feat Special:
"Check with your DM before selecting this feat, and work with your DM to determine appropiate crafting for his campaign".
In PF crafting is very abuseable particularly with backwards compatiblity and a single feat like Mercantile Background from PGtF.
In quite a few games the default premise is if the rules allow it then it is reasonable for players to use those rules to their advantage in game.
IMO it will be even worst for PF after all the open testing for those rules that were allowed to slip by in playtesting. Lots of thread arguements this isn't broken because it was playtested, reviewed and that really isn't an issue.
Just because some people won't find that playstyle enjoyable doesn't mean others won't. So please do everyone, particularly the DMs a favor and qualify PF crafting feats with a Special like the Leadership feat if the experience point cost is going to be removed.
So... slip the XP costs in as an optional rule. There in black and white on paper, or PDF, for those who want it and left out -- with another option, such as incraesed time / GP costs -- for those who hate it. That's how it's going to work anyway. DMs will go with what they like. Keeping both systems available in the PF RPG is an option, just as having multiple charts for levelling up based on campaign preference is.
I like the removal of xp cost for item creation, but I still think there should be some kind of resource expenditure. Someone suggested hp, but that's as bad if not worse than xp.
I would establish a new mechanic that mirrors the xp cost mechanic. I like very much the idea of a crafting pool. I don't know the Eberon artificer rules (not OGL anyway), never read any of that setting. But here's a possible take:
Upon first gaining a Craft Magic Item feat, the character establishes a crafing pool equal to his current xp total, with a minimum of 100 for first level characters. Any xp expenditure to create or enhance an item is subtracted from this pool instead of the characters xp total. The crafting pool replenishes when the character advances a level, the new crafting pool being equal to his new higher xp total. Multiple Craft Magic Item feats do not add to the crafting pool.
This simple rule functions as a restriction the same as an xp cost, but without any level slow-down. It has good backwards compatibility. It works well with multiclass characters becuase its based on character level not caster- or spellcasting-level. It also lets first level wizards do some scroll-work right off the bat before even the first encounter. It also gives industrial item crafters a reason to get up off their butts and go adventuring again to get a new level.
Feats could be made to increase the pool. A simple rule for deficit spending could be made for characters that were low on their crafting pool. Double cost per point beyond available pool, to be subtracted immediately on advancing. Or ACTUAL xp cost for deficit spending.
Thoughts?
-Jack
I suggested HP, because it's a "renewable resource". A little time flat on your back and you're as good as new... hopefully anyway. It acts as a natural limit on how much item craetion you can do in a given period (especially if limits are imposed on magical healing for this purpose -- i.e. "the soul takes longer to heal than a mere cut and no minor magic can get around it") and creates a temporary vulnerability as well. And of course, there are all those other opportunities for group activities, to wit: human sacrifice, inhuman sacrifice, group crafting, prayer groups, you name it. A crafting pool sounds reasonable as well, especially with a penalty, like actual XP, for "overdrawing the account". I just don't feel GP cuts it for a sacrifice... probably just create a crime wave when the wizards get low on cash :)
I suggested HP, because it's a "renewable resource". A little time flat on your back and you're as good as new... hopefully anyway. It acts as a natural limit on how much item craetion you can do in a given period (especially if limits are imposed on magical healing for this purpose -- i.e. "the soul takes longer to heal than a mere cut and no minor magic can get around it") and creates a temporary vulnerability as well. And of course, there are all those other opportunities for group activities, to wit: human sacrifice, inhuman sacrifice, group crafting, prayer groups, you name it. A crafting pool sounds reasonable as well, especially with a penalty, like actual XP, for "overdrawing the account". I just don't feel GP cuts it for a sacrifice... probably just create a crime wave when the wizards get low on cash :)
Sorry! I thought you meant permanent hp loss.
After some thought, renewing the pool at each level gives a great deal more than any xp use. Perhaps only increasing it to match the actual xp increase since the last level.
-Jack
Sorry! I thought you meant permanent hp loss.-Jack
Heh, no the death penalty for crafting magic items might be a bit too severe. I just want a more significant barrier than GP. No matter how much time you spend soaking up your players ill, or well, gotten gains, they can get really creative when they want something bad enough. I know my players would be pooling their GP and eyeing the local money changers, gambling halls, jewellers etc. if they only needed cash for a major magic item. They'd probably want to ambush other adventurers too. Crime wave of the century, town crier reports at eleven! :)
The XP cost was good, because no wizard wanted to put off leveling up too often, or fall too far behind his cohorts. They were always waiting to go up a level and get to that next level of spells...
It was a good "game rule" for that reason and the idea of sacrificing power / soul / mana etc. for magic is a well established idea in fantasy fiction and made "real in-character sense" as well.
I always figured crafting magic items drained a little bit of life force which explained the cost mechanic for in game purposes.
A house costs 1,000 gp plus in game.
Crafting a permanent magic itme is grabbing a little bit of immortality in the game world. A permanent magic item to remind people your PC had come before them.
The removal of XP costs seems to be a dangerous slippery slope for me. I don't usually like characters creating magic items anyway, and this seems to open the door for all kinds of abuse. Having PCs crank out wands of useful spells seems like it'd be a particular nightmare.
Well, as somneone who was just playing a mage who had the crafting feats and crafted heavily for himself and the party, the XP costs SUCKED. And what did it do, really? It didn;t stop me form making my Staff of Power, or the +5 Brilliant Gratsword for the fighter, it just meant I ended up being a level behind the rets of the party. XP costs for things outside of WISH, really don't make sense. XP represents oyur character's knowledge and what they have learned over the course of their adventuring career. So, with an XP cost, making magic items takes memories and experiences away form the character?
Remember, all those shiny magic items your bad guys have and your PCs find were made by a mage at some point. Time, expense, and effort to make them makes sense. XP costs do not. I like the new system and say KEEP IT
Well, as somneone who was just playing a mage who had the crafting feats and crafted heavily for himself and the party, the XP costs SUCKED. And what did it do, really? It didn;t stop me form making my Staff of Power, or the +5 Brilliant Gratsword for the fighter, it just meant I ended up being a level behind the rets of the party. XP costs for things outside of WISH, really don't make sense. XP represents oyur character's knowledge and what they have learned over the course of their adventuring career. So, with an XP cost, making magic items takes memories and experiences away form the character?
Remember, all those shiny magic items your bad guys have and your PCs find were made by a mage at some point. Time, expense, and effort to make them makes sense. XP costs do not. I like the new system and say KEEP IT
You play a mage, out of curiosity do you DM? It gives a different perspective on it.
If you were making Staffs of Power and +5 Brilliant Greatswords it doesn't sound like you're exactly low level. The loss of XP should be balanced by the utility of the staff, not to speak of having that +5 greatsword between you and all kinds of nastiness. If those items haven't been of that much use, then I could see complaining. If they have, you got what you paid for. As for the guy you're forging the heavy metal for, did he pay up (GP)? Does he keep an eye out for his supplier of hefty magic items? I'd hope so...
As for the mages who made those nifty magic items that litter the campaign... very high level, and not worrying about the XP too much, retired, and not worrying about it too much, Elvish, and figuring he/she has a thouand years to recoup XP... Or the magic laying around is the accumulation of thousands of years of mages crafting items, a bit here and a bit there. The effort / power needed to make them is what the XP costs were about.
In any event it's up to your DM really. No inclusion, or exclusion, of a rule on crafting magic is going to matter if they want it to work a given way.
In my opinion, this should be split. Scrolls and potions should not have an experience point cost but other magic items should have an xp cost.
It is hard to believe that a Wizard would have to pay an experience point cost just for writing a scroll, and since potions are only one shot and based upon lower level spells, this gives the PCs access to limited boosts in power on a short term basis.
More permanent items should have an xp cost as without this, high level PCs and NPCs would have an unlimited amount of magic. For example, there has to be a reason as to why the court mage, though supplied with ample coinage, would not turn into a magic making factory for his patron.
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Just wondering, what's the difference between not having xp and just "ebaying" the item. You can basically get whatever it is that you want by saying that you commission an item to be created.
So we'll still have a GP-limit per community, which now only affects the non-casters who want magic items. This, though I like the lack of xp cost, is unfair. If you keep this system for item creation, get rid of the GP-limit in communities or maybe make it so that item creators can only go up to the communities GP-limit.
It is hard to believe that a Wizard would have to pay an experience point cost just for writing a scroll, and since potions are only one shot and based upon lower level spells, this gives the PCs access to limited boosts in power on a short term basis.
So they get a special permission from the magic bureau for those? Because while the magic will be bound into an item - just like swords and the like - you use it up, you won't have to pay for it? That sounds even more implausible than XP costs themselves.
And they are implausible. XP represent a character's experience. I'd personally say that you gain a lot of experience when you create a magic item, but with 3e rules, you instead lose experience. You get greener behind your ears.
It also raises the question about those who create the items to sell them: If they're not adventurers, where are they getting those XP from? And if they are, why aren't they just killing monsters and taking their stuff, which is more lucrative than spending days making a sword - and they gain XP instead of losing them, becoming more powerful (and able to make even more powerful items).
More permanent items should have an xp cost as without this, high level PCs and NPCs would have an unlimited amount of magic. For example, there has to be a reason as to why the court mage, though supplied with ample coinage, would not turn into a magic making factory for his patron.
No, there hasn't. If the guy is given the resources and time to churn out items, he should be able to churn out items.
And it doesn't mean that someone would have an unlimited amount of magic, since the stuff still costs time and money, both of which are scarce resources.
If it enabled them to get infinite magic, it would also mean that by buying stuff they could get infinite/2 magic (which, as we know, is also infinite, albeit a smaller infinite).
In my opinion, this should be split. Scrolls and potions should not have an experience point cost but other magic items should have an xp cost.
It is hard to believe that a Wizard would have to pay an experience point cost just for writing a scroll, and since potions are only one shot and based upon lower level spells, this gives the PCs access to limited boosts in power on a short term basis.
More permanent items should have an xp cost as without this, high level PCs and NPCs would have an unlimited amount of magic. For example, there has to be a reason as to why the court mage, though supplied with ample coinage, would not turn into a magic making factory for his patron.
Good thinking. Keep the XP costs for permanent (or at least more than one use items). I like it. One houserule for my game coming up...
XP represent a character's experience.Hum, I think you are wrong.
Your assumption that I'm wrong is wrong.
Levels represent a character's experience.
Actually, levels are an abstraction: Every time you have an experience (and gain XP), you grow, but a level system isn't good at micromoanagement. In fact, every swing you make will probably make you better. But all this is too fine-grained to put into rules (at least ones you use dice no larger than d20 for. If you want to introduce d1000 as the standard, you might be in luck).
So the system tracks your experience - via XP - but abstracts power gain by only giving you bonuses every once in a while: when your XP pass certain borders.
What is the difference for a character with 1 XP's and 999 XP's ?
998 XP. You totally ran into that one. :P
Just because you don't level up from 500 XP over 300 or something doesn't mean it isn't there. If that were the case, there would be no XP.
I could as well say that ability scores are useless because cha 15 is no different from cha 14 (I know, I know, there's feats)
And with those points, players can buy increases of powers for their characters : levels, magical items, permanent spells, resurections, and others transgressions (permitted) to the rules like wishes and miracles.
The whole thing makes no sense to me: I kept working out, but instead of better condition or larger muscles, I got to watch a movie?
There is no need of XP rules to gain levels, some D20 - OGL games do not use XP at all and characters still gain levels.
Note that those games don't have XP costs, either.
So, don't be so stingy with your XP spend them, or one day they will disappear because we will notice that they are useless.
They're not useless. Sure, some DMs want to arbitrarily level-up, but others like XP to track characters' progress.
Other systems actually treat XP as a "resource", because you directly raise your stats by spending XP (5 points times new value for attributes, 3x new value for skills, and so on)
So they get a special permission from the magic bureau for those? Because while the magic will be bound into an item - just like swords and the like - you use it up, you won't have to pay for it? That sounds even more implausible than XP costs themselves.And they are implausible. XP represent a character's experience. I'd personally say that you gain a lot of experience when you create a magic item, but with 3e rules, you instead lose experience. You get greener behind your ears.
It also raises the question about those who create the items to sell them: If they're not adventurers, where are they getting those XP from? And if they are, why aren't they just killing monsters and taking their stuff, which is more lucrative than spending days making a sword - and they gain XP instead of losing them, becoming more powerful (and able to make even more powerful items).
As far as a rational goes for no XP costs for scrolls / potions and XP costs for other gear... Scrolls and potions are essentially one shot items -- rather like a delayed spell use. Once you read the specific spell off the scroll, it's gone. Once you drink that potion, it's gone. Other items have long lasting effects or yield far more magical effects (i.e. a +1 sword or a wand of fire). The one use item doesn't require XP because it doesn't take more than just casting the spell (besides the material component to hold the magic). The permanent / semi-permanent or really powerful items require more energy than just casting a spell. Hence the XP costs. It makes sense if you think of it along those lines.
As for the idea behind XP costs for magic crafting: It's not as simple as just making a common item. A significant amount of magic has to go into it. We're not talking a factory job here, put in the GP and crank out the items. The magic has to come from somewhere. unless you consider gold a magical metal :) I think the power comes from another source. Like the soul / power of the caster. The idea of putting something of yourself, call it soul or mana or power into an item is pretty common. For an extreme case, think Sauron and the One Ring in LotR. There are a lot of literary and mythological examples of the idea. It has a nifty game mechanics effect too -- it keeps the PCs from craeting magical arsenals without significant risk or cost. You adventure to gain magic, risking life and limb... putting out some XP seems reasonable by those standards of "cost".
As for those NPCs who craft magic items, as I've mentioned before: high level and not worried about a few XP, retired and building that nest egg, Elvish and figuring to get it back sometime in the next few centuries. Or maybe the relatively large number of items around now is the result of untold centuries of magical labor, or (my favorite) some ancient magical empire which "knew more than modern wizards" about it. There are a thousand plausible reasons / variations for it. All it really requires is something reasonable to justify it. Given that your working with an imaginary world, with magical powers, supernatural beings running around, etc., a little suspention of disbelief isn't that hard to come by.
Since D&D basically has whole shops with magic items, where there aren't just made one per decade or so, it seems that you'd need a lot of XP to cover up all that.
And since the acquiring of those XP usually leads to more profit quicker than the crafting of items, no one would do it.
As for the power's source: You cast spells into the thing, and seal them with special materials. Hence the need to keep casting spells and the monetary part.
And I still think that XP, being an abstract measure of your experience (hence the name), should not be reified and used as a cost. "Gee, now that I created that sword, I can't remember how I defeated the ogre last week."
I don't agree, i have been playing for over 3 years and yet to have anyone even use the craft magical item because they don't want to loose the xp, i think this opens up a great RP aspect to the game, what if the roll to craft fails... etc. It gives the gm a lot of leeway to have fun with the pc's and even bring in npc's to make the game more interesting.
Since D&D basically has whole shops with magic items, where there aren't just made one per decade or so, it seems that you'd need a lot of XP to cover up all that.
And since the acquiring of those XP usually leads to more profit quicker than the crafting of items, no one would do it.
As for the power's source: You cast spells into the thing, and seal them with special materials. Hence the need to keep casting spells and the monetary part.
And I still think that XP, being an abstract measure of your experience (hence the name), should not be reified and used as a cost. "Gee, now that I created that sword, I can't remember how I defeated the ogre last week."
Where do people get the idea that "D&D basically has whole shops with magic items" ? I guess some games must. We used to make fun of the whole "magic shop" idea, it was right up there with the "Monte Haul" DM. I've probably lost some younger players there, or maybe not, but: Monty Haul was a gameshow host who gave away potentially valuable items which where behing doors, numbered 1-3. The connection to the classic dungeon doors and giving away large amounts of treasure should be apparent. It was a running joke in Dragon, back in the dark ages of it's paper incarnation... In any event, the closest thing to a magic shop I've run across in most games is a herbalist or some specialty shop catering to material components... the one place I have consistently seen "magic shops" is in computer FRPGs. It was a simplified way for people to unload items they couldn't use for cash / replace said items with useful material. It basically cut out any complicated methods of unloading goods (i.e. barter between PC/NPCs,. other adventurers etc. That type of thing was beyond the scope of most computer games due to the limitations of AI and the relatively narrow / linear gameplay. In short, it was a game mechanic that most people grimaced and worked with.
As for why people would craft magic, maybe grizzly death in some dank hole in the ground or far barren waste has lost it's appeal. Most likely, of course, is crafting for their own use, or some friend / party members use.
As for the spell, special material and locking it in, I'd agree. I've also expressed the idea that it would take more power than the common spell to imbue an item with the ability to cast multiple spells (like a wand / staff) or retain a permanent magical effect (like a sword). I think XP is a good measure for that cost, not because it involves someone's memories (it doesn't) but because it represents a drain on someones magical power / ability. Siphoning off a bit of that to supply power to an item. As an alternative to XP, I would suggest really rare or expensive components. The kind of thing that would require an adventure to get, i.e. "you need a dragons what?!!! You go get it you daft bugger...". This approach has been tried before, but the complexity of the "magical shopping list" approach has been an issue. Which, coming full circle, is why XP works -- it is relatively simple to understand / use.
I like it's change, it sucks that a Wizard/Sorcerer have to use XP to do anything when NONE of the other classes have XP costs.
No one else is going around crafting powerful magic items either... if they had powers to equal that, I'm sure people would be howling for "balance" and costs.
Where do people get the idea that "D&D basically has whole shops with magic items" ?
Core rulebooks, prices for magic items, city statistics with GP limits, character wealth guidelines, treasure generation guidelines, NPC statistics..... All these strongly imply that a D&D world that complies to the assumed standards has a lot of magic items, will acquire a lot of magic items, sell a lot of magic items, need a lot of magic items, and demand a lot of magic items (in terms of supply and demand, not necessarily in terms of demanding them from the DM, though that certainly happens).
Those things are simple fact: Characters and NPCs do have all those items, monsters do have that treasure, cities do have those GP limits and are assumed to have anything that is below those limits generally available (In the example of Magnimar, which has a mere 16,428 inhabitants, the GP Limit is 40,000 gp, with Assests of 32,856,000 gp - that means your chances of finding a +6 stat item, +5 armour, or +4 weapon for sale there are pretty good).
I think it's sensible to assume that most of the items that are being trafficked will be handled by merchants, not adventurers that take the week off to hawk their loot, and merchants will have shops (or stalls on the market).
I don't say that all games are like that, but most of the game's rules assume that those standards are used, and are balanced against that. (Get rid of magic items without compensating for it and pit characters against monsters - in a lot of cases the characters will be annihilated because they're ineffective against their enemies and their supernatural protections).
So the standard D&D setting does have magic item shops (whether they sell everything magical or only some types of items, like a blacksmith dealing in magic weapons and so on), and assuming non-standard worlds when debating standard rules doesn't make sense.
While not a few items certainly keep circulating, as adventurers take them off enemies, sell them to shops, where they are sold to other adventurers who then fall prey to monsters who add the stuff to their loot to be taken by yet another badge of adventurers (or adventurers cut out the middle men and loot other adventurers or NPCs), I think it safe to assume that new stuff is being created: Old items are destroyed or otherwise lost forever, population and with it the number of adventurers rises over time, and sometimes items are made on demand, or for practise.
And it makes no sense that bespoke or commertial item creators - people who make a living out of creating those items, instead of adventuring - will have to go adventuring to raise the necessary amount of XP so they can create the items they want to sell. For one, the adventuring itself is probably a lot more lucrative than the item creation, since you tend to acquire loot while doing it. If a guy goes on an adventure so he can get the XP necessary to complete a job netting him, say 10.000 XP, but over the course of that adventuring he finds loot that sells for 20.000, why should he bother with item creation?
The only reason I can think of is that he doesn't want to go on adventure, because he's not made of adventurer stuff, or he's retired, which makes it basically impossible for him to go into the magic item business.
In short, it was a game mechanic that most people grimaced and worked with.
I'm curious: Do you have hard facts to back this statement up or are you only extrapolating from personal and anecdotal evidence?
As for why people would craft magic, maybe grizzly death in some dank hole in the ground or far barren waste has lost it's appeal.
As I said: If they don't want to go there, they better forget to do magic item creation as more than a hobby or sideline, because they will run out of XP to craft those items (you can't ungain a level to burn more XP). Unless, of course, you abolish XP as a resource.
Most likely, of course, is crafting for their own use, or some friend / party members use.
Wouldn't say so.
Of course, I can now only offer personal and anecdotal evidence, but I haven't seen anyone taking an item creation feat. The only instance I can think of where someone spent XP on anything was the creation of an epic spell - and he later regretted it. In fact, most of the time when I hear people talk about this on RPG message boards, they tell the same story.
The reason for this is that you'll lag behind on XP, go stretches where they're weaker than other party members, and just because they wanted to use items the game kinda assumes you'll get - or even because they wanted to get others those items.
And beyond that, there's always the time factor. Not every adventure module or homebrew games will let you take the month off to improve the party fighter's sword a bit, as events will happen, villains will act, time will go on without mercy.
Add those two things together and my general experience is that it doesn't work half the time, and the rest of the time, the players don't want it. Commission work's a lot better for everyone concerned. (You pay a bit more, true, but it's only gold, and during the time the contractor is toiling away in his lab, you go and earn that gold)
I'd agree. I've also expressed the idea that it would take more power than the common spell to imbue an item with the ability to cast multiple spells (like a wand / staff) or retain a permanent magical effect (like a sword).
Yeah. You'll probably need special materials that will bind, store and amplify the magical force you keep pouring in for days. In fact, I say that this stuff should be quite expensive - fully half the market price.
Spent XP doesn't enter into it. People and creatures don't have to spend their XP to use supernatural abilities, either, and yet they're able to keep on using them as their power regenerates and replenishes.
I think XP is a good measure for that cost, not because it involves someone's memories (it doesn't)
Not necessarily memories. Experiences. Challenges overcome and lessons learned. That is represented by experience. Loss of XP means lessons unlearned.
As an alternative to XP, I would suggest really rare or expensive components. The kind of thing that would require an adventure to get, i.e. "you need a dragons what?!!! You go get it you daft bugger...". This approach has been tried before, but the complexity of the "magical shopping list" approach has been an issue. Which, coming full circle, is why XP works -- it is relatively simple to understand / use.
Expensive components are easy, too. "Creating magic items requies rare and expensive components, with a cost equal to half the item's base value". Don't bother with the details. Assume that you acquire them on the market - after all, you're not the first to create magic items, so you're not the first to require those materials. That means it's quite likely that someone already specialised in procuring those materials. Given the opportunism of people, a whole industry has likely sprung up around it.
Core rulebooks, prices for magic items, city statistics with GP limits, character wealth guidelines, treasure generation guidelines, NPC statistics..... All these strongly imply that a D&D world that complies to the assumed standards has a lot of magic items, will acquire a lot of magic items, sell a lot of magic items, need a lot of magic items, and demand a lot of magic items (in terms of supply and demand, not necessarily in terms of demanding them from the DM, though that certainly happens).
The prices are there as a guideline, for sale of the items, bartering of items and the cost of producing items. It doesn't say that the items are commonly for sale. The GP limits on cities apply to everything that can be purchased there. It is not magic specific, although I would say it applies to them. Wealth guidelines and treasure guidelines are about the magic that has been accumulated / retained over the lifetime of said NPC / monster. It doesn't indicate if they are passing numerous items through their hordes frequently or not. Magic is relatively common among adventurers I'm sure. It's a large factor in why people adventure. I just don't think magic should be substituted for technology as a simple, common commodity. It's a matter of taste I guess.
Those things are simple fact: Characters and NPCs do have all those items, monsters do have that treasure, cities do have those GP limits and are assumed to have anything that is below those limits generally available (In the example of Magnimar, which has a mere 16,428 inhabitants, the GP Limit is 40,000 gp, with Assests of 32,856,000 gp - that means your chances of finding a +6 stat item, +5 armour, or +4 weapon for sale there are pretty good).
I think it's sensible to assume that most of the items that are being trafficked will be handled by merchants, not adventurers that take the week off to hawk their loot, and merchants will have shops (or stalls on the market).
See the above. I should have inserted my comment below this part of your post.
I don't say that all games are like that, but most of the game's rules assume that those standards are used, and are balanced against that. (Get rid of magic items without compensating for it and pit characters against monsters - in a lot of cases the characters will be annihilated because they're ineffective against their enemies and their supernatural protections).
So the standard D&D setting does have magic item shops (whether they sell everything magical or only some types of items, like a blacksmith dealing in magic weapons and so on), and assuming non-standard worlds when debating standard rules doesn't make sense.
I agree, not all games are like that. "That" being any type of game. It varies wildly among groups. I think you're assuming a standard. I'm just pointing out that this isn't necessarily the case. I think a setting book should include anything the setting takes in, but a core rulebook should be setting neutral and allow the DM to put his own spin on things such as this.
*edit* KaeYoss, your post was a bit too long for me to reply to all at once (both for the time I have and the fact that the reply button seems to have cut off about half of it). I have papers to grade (oh joy), I'll get back to you later :)
A couple of points:
Standard Settings for 3.5 were Forgotten Realms and Eberron . . . in FR the Thayans sold low level magic items in enclaves and in Eberron you have a whole class dedicated to being able to make magic items more easily.
Now, this doesn't mean that every single magic item in the DMG can be found in a huge magic mark, but it does set up early on that somewhere in a champaign setting, money can be exchanged for magic items.
That having been said, no, for most campaigns, a huge store filled with magic items doesn't quite make sense. There shouldn't be stores filled with every possible exploding whosit sword in it. But, while its not "core," the Magic Item Compendium addresses some of this.
In that source, they point out that if you are in a city that has a gp limit for what you are looking for, you can make a gather information check based on the item's level, and track down someone that either has an item you are looking for willing to sell it, or a spellcaster willing to make the item for you.
Now, as far as the effect on the game: I have players that are actually considering taking item creation feats now. I did have a player in a previous campaign that took scribe scroll (a cleric), but that was to have a few needed spells (like Revivify) on hand. The XP cost was self correcting, but it did mean that sometimes you were a level behind the rest of the party for one adventure, or that you didn't have enough XP to make a magic item when you had down time, and it meant that, even though it was self correcting, you had to do extra paperwork to keep track of the XP cost.
Don't know how it will work, but I thought I'd pass on that I do have players making plans for this sort of thing now.