Please Change Half-Orcs


Alpha Release 1 General Discussion


Please change half-orcs from their current description in Pathfinder Alpha

In the past, I've seen many posts of players discrediting half-orcs because of how they think half-orcs come into being. Having had a close look at the PHB entry, several ideas for their existance come into play, one being that half-orcs are humans who have evolved to withstand harsh orc enviroments (or orcs softening up to human worlds), another that half-orcs being bred from humans and orcs are consensual (since it states that human and orc tribes actually trade with each other). It doesn't even specificlly say that a half-orc is the result of a human and orc doing somthing that might fetch alot of money on the right internet site.

The entry in Pathfinder Alpha implies that half-orcs come in only one way...

It seems to me that the entry in the players handbook was left vauge and open for a reason; to allow others to decide from themselves the exact reasons behind half-orcs comming into exsistance. Please, change the fluff in the Paizo version or at least leave it as vague as the PHB version so that alternative half-orc ideas aren't so much of a stretch.


To this end I have ruled that Half-Orc blood can be rather persistent in the family tree, so you get several generations of "Half"-Orcs, so that the players can be removed from the details of Half-Orc origins. It also allowed for the creation entire clans and commonality of Half-Orcs in the borderlands.


Nero24200 wrote:
The entry in Pathfinder Alpha implies that half-orcs come in only one way...

I think that's a nod to the 3e orc alignment of "chaotic evil." If you play up that aspect, all orcs and half-orcs would be "born of violence" or whatever, because for really CE creatures, mating would be based on dominance rather than mutual affection, etc. Baquies makes a good point about allowing 1/4 orcs, etc. to be "half-orc" characters, if you want a different background.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I believe half-orcs are a race unto themselves. Sometime in the distant past some isolated groups of humans and orcs were thrust together for mutual survival. Over the centuries, human and orc relationships were quite common. Eventually there were no more pure blood humans or orcs. When finally they were able to rejoin the rest of the world, they were now a race that bred true the best traits of their ancestors. While some may have lower intelligence like the orc, others can have a high intellignece. A half-orc could have starting ability scores with no penalty, or a bonus to one and a penalty to another. It would all depend on the how strong an influence their ancestors' genes are.


Why do people want to sugar coat half-orcs? Seriously.

Yeah, most likely half orcs are going to be the product of rape. Orcs are barbaric conquering humanoids that often attack human settlements. That stuff is going to happen.


Because (In my experience) players don't want their character to be the product of rape. Some might as an RPing aspect, but the ones I have had do not. So it is not that hard to add in half a sentence in the racial description that leaves the matter open for DMs and Players to decide what they are comfortable with.


There's an opportunity here to generalize this "race" to include many human-monster crossbreeds. Let's face it, an awful lot of the "evil" humanoid races are very alike (strong and not too smart, with good night vision).

This could be re-imagined as "Half-Breed", with a monstrous ancestor somewhere in the family tree. Orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, giants...

Liberty's Edge

What about when a half-orc mates with another half-orc? What about those occasions when the mother is an orc? Let's also not forget political marriages between barbarian tribes or those exceptional relationships where love (or at least mutual lust) is found accross the species line (ah, Klingon love).

None of these matings need come out of an act of violence and will still produce half orc offspring. The racial background should at least acknowledge these possibilities.

Just IMO


Here we go again.

Orcs are mean, evil, brutish, dangerous, hateful. To people living near orc lands, they are THE ENEMY. Every now and then, the orcs mass into hordes that smash whatever settlement they can find. Orcs are what people scare their children with, and for good reason. Everybody has at least one or two reasonably close relatives that have been killed or maimed by orcs. This is more or less the assumptions of the orcish place in the world, and how humans see them.

So, consensual love? Arranged marriages? Compared to the alternative of rape, those are going to be rarer than hen's teeth.


Corian of Lurkshire wrote:

Here we go again.

There is a long 3 page discussion that was posted about two weeks ago here "Born Out of Violence". I think you'll find alot of what is going to be said in there.

I'm fine with it how it is. Want a non-product of rape? Fine make one, write a background that way, if you don't Fine write a different background. I also think half-elves shouldn't be candy coated either just because the parents are more eye apealing.

Fizz


You know, Greeks used to be blond before they conquered Turkey a couple of times and vice versa. It's war. People interbreed during war. Both voluntarily and not.

-Frank


Has anyone played a half orc under the alpha rules?

Has any one read the orc entry in Classic Monsters Revisited (OGL)?
I am ok with it, If you don't like the fluff change it.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Corian of Lurkshire wrote:

Here we go again.

Orcs are mean, evil, brutish, dangerous, hateful. To people living near orc lands, they are THE ENEMY. Every now and then, the orcs mass into hordes that smash whatever settlement they can find. Orcs are what people scare their children with, and for good reason. Everybody has at least one or two reasonably close relatives that have been killed or maimed by orcs. This is more or less the assumptions of the orcish place in the world, and how humans see them.

So, consensual love? Arranged marriages? Compared to the alternative of rape, those are going to be rarer than hen's teeth.

I never said that didn't still happen. But just because most are evil, does not mean all are evil. (I don't hear anyone complaining about Drizzt being good.) In the immortal words of John F. Kennedy, "Just because we can do a thing, does not mean we must do a thing."

Sovereign Court

Charles Scholz wrote:
Corian of Lurkshire wrote:

Here we go again.

Orcs are mean, evil, brutish, dangerous, hateful. To people living near orc lands, they are THE ENEMY. Every now and then, the orcs mass into hordes that smash whatever settlement they can find. Orcs are what people scare their children with, and for good reason. Everybody has at least one or two reasonably close relatives that have been killed or maimed by orcs. This is more or less the assumptions of the orcish place in the world, and how humans see them.

So, consensual love? Arranged marriages? Compared to the alternative of rape, those are going to be rarer than hen's teeth.

I never said that didn't still happen. But just because most are evil, does not mean all are evil. (I don't hear anyone complaining about Drizzt being good.) In the immortal words of John F. Kennedy, "Just because we can do a thing, does not mean we must do a thing."

If you're just going to ignore the subject of a debate, then why debate at all?

from the Alpha... "Most half-orcs today share this dark history."

So, the most that you want to see is already in the document.


Half orcs add flavor to the game because of the stigma that surrounds them. Everyone who meets the charater knows something unpleasant about his/her past.

I am glad that it is further defined as orc male + human female = half orc. It anwsers alot of questions about Fantasy cross breeding. Have you ever wondered why there are no half kobolds? how about half saytrs? maybe a three quater halfling? Dwelfs? Gnobbits?

By defining the roles of genetics "in game" one can skip all these questions. I would even go so far as to say any half(insert race here) is sterile, with a few that aren't and produce Aasmirs and Tieflings.

If a player wants to be a half breed, but doesn't want the RP of a stigma, I would tell them to try a half elf.


Kirwyn wrote:

Has anyone played a half orc under the alpha rules?

Has any one read the orc entry in Classic Monsters Revisited (OGL)?
I am ok with it, If you don't like the fluff change it.

Not completely, but I got the gist of it: Orcs are savage, nasty, brutish, extremely warlike, patriarchial. Their own children and women are considered virtually worthless, women only there to breed and raise their spawn. They won't treat human women better. And they acquire them to get half-orc brood, which while weaker than real orcs, are not as crotchety and actually quite wise.

I'm perfectly fine with half-orcs being the result of rape most of the time (and in the other cases, they're mostly the result of two half-orcs breeding true).

Golarion isn't a oximoronic world of oppressive points of light that is still suitable for small children to play with.

Baquies wrote:
Because (In my experience) players don't want their character to be the product of rape.

Then they should not play half-orcs. Or play the one half-orc who isn't like the others.

This is one thing I absolutely love about Golarion - and Midnight! They don't avoid anything just because pre-school kids would get scared of it. In Midnight, where all half-breeds are strictly non-human (since the non-human races have a common ancestry and are thus interfertile, but humans, being a different animal, can't breed with elves or orcs or other fey races), there's only one type of half-orc: the dworg. Half orc, half dwarf, and always (always as in always) the result of war crimes. Physically the most impressive race in eredane (they get +2 Str and Con!), and one of the most pitiable - and the only race that hates orcs more than the dwarves do.

Silver Crusade

I think KaeYoss makes a very valid point. Golarion isn't your typical fantasy setting (indeed, given the involvement of the Cthulu mythos, how could it be anything else?). It isn't PC (in this case "politically correct") and I personally resent attempts to make it so. Its lack of PC-ness is one of the things that piqued my interest in the setting: the inherent darkness that lies beneath the surface that just can't be candy-coated in any way. It's also why I like Midnight and even Iron Kingdoms. And the fact that most half-orcs are the product of rape drives that point home.

But most is not all. Not by any means. That leaves it open for your Drizzt-type half-orcs to exist. The theme of overcoming the worst aspects of your evil heritage (no matter how latent or overt it may be) is a common one and it is one that resonates strongly with the half-orc. because even if he/she isn't the result of rape, there will be those that will assume this is so. How the half-orc deals with that perception is a thing best left to role-playing, which is how it should be.

War is literally hell. It isn't nice. Those involved will do things that most sane people would never do simply because they are caught up in the fervor. Not all of those actions are honorable. No one likes to be reminded of these things and to have a half-orc looking you in the face serves to only do just that: forcibly reminding people that these things go on, even when they don't want such a thing.

Liberty's Edge

One of my concepts for Curse of the Crimson Throne (I get to play! I get to play!) is a half-orc druid, who is unusually misshapen even for a half-orc (Cha 7, Dex 7) - though he is quite strong, his body does not seem to work right when he moves. The orcs that raised him blame his deformities on the fact that his father may not have raped his mother; there are hints that it might have been, of not exactly her idea, at least nonviolent and largely consensual.

So yeah. I'm good with half-orcs generally being rape offspring. My D&D is not a kiddie game; in a world where evil is something that can be objectively identified, some things really can be cast in black and white.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

(Thread Necromancy Warning!)

Alright, given the likely birth circumstances of a Half-Orc, how does one survive their mother's rejection?

A child can find a way to survive on his or her own (even a small child), but an infant cannot.

So, how does a half-orc bridge the gap?


Lord Fyre wrote:


Alright, given the likely birth circumstances of a Half-Orc, how does one survive their mother's rejection?

Rejection by the mother shouldn't be a given. Maternal instincts aren't overridden that easily.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Pangur Bàn wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:


Alright, given the likely birth circumstances of a Half-Orc, how does one survive their mother's rejection?
Rejection by the mother shouldn't be a given. Maternal instincts aren't overridden that easily.

I don't know . . .

  • A child born of violence is clearly unwanted.
  • Even if the woman might want to keep the child, her family is very unlikely to.
  • The child will look clearly monsterous, only adding the the likelihood of it being abandoned.
Those are pretty powerful reasons for the child not to survive.


Lord Fyre wrote:
  • A child born of violence is clearly unwanted.
  • Even if the woman might want to keep the child, her family is very unlikely to.
  • The child will look clearly monsterous, only adding the the likelihood of it being abandoned.
  • I'm not so sure that's an absolute truth.
  • Considering the circumstances of the conception, who's to say the mother even has any family left?
  • Will it? Newly born humans, if we're honest, don't really look that great (more like Yoda with a less green complexion). I wouldn't know at which point it would become noticeable that a baby is a half-orc.

The last point brings up something else: it won't always be clear if the conception was the result of the rape or a previous, non-forced amourous encounter, and none of us knows at which point the truth would become evident. It's not inconceivable for a bond to have been formed by then.


Lord Fyre wrote:
So, how does a half-orc bridge the gap?

Maybe since Orcs mature so much more quickly than humans, half-orcs are born able to walk and fight. That'd freak out the human villagers enough to drop the little scrapper in the woods.

Shadow Lodge

Swordslinger wrote:

Why do people want to sugar coat half-orcs? Seriously.

Yeah, most likely half orcs are going to be the product of rape. Orcs are barbaric conquering humanoids that often attack human settlements. That stuff is going to happen.

Ah, but the reverse is also true.


Charles Scholz wrote:


I don't hear anyone complaining about Drizzt being good.

Of course not. But Chuck, that doesn't stop people from hating him any way, just like people hate orcs. The sins of the father(or mother) are past to the child for no damn reason!

Dark Archive

Lord Fyre wrote:

(Thread Necromancy Warning!)

Alright, given the likely birth circumstances of a Half-Orc, how does one survive their mother's rejection?

A child can find a way to survive on his or her own (even a small child), but an infant cannot.

So, how does a half-orc bridge the gap?

Well I can see a few possibilities. One would be that certain churches, like Desna's or Shelyn's run shelters to raise these unwanted children along with other orphans and abandoned children. Another comes from the Greeks. They used to expose unwanted children to the elements, basically leaving them to die. However, if someone else wanted a child and could not have one, they could take a baby from the place of exposure and raise it as their own, or even raise it to become a slave. Since half-orcs are phyiscally stronger and mature faster than a human, I could easily see a thriving black market in half-orc children being raised as slaves.


Swordslinger wrote:

Why do people want to sugar coat half-orcs? Seriously.

Yeah, most likely half orcs are going to be the product of rape. Orcs are barbaric conquering humanoids that often attack human settlements. That stuff is going to happen.

I agree. it is part of their appeal (not that I condone rape) but everyone wants to why half orcs are born with a chip on their shoulder. the whole societal bias and hatred is just salt in the wound.

personally, i don't allow half races at all reasoning that the eldiritch magic in demihuman/goblinoid blood doesn't allow breeding. humans can breed with any demihuman/goblinoid but breed humans despite any cosmetic appearances just like homo erectus did to the neanderthals. besides, if you want to be an elf or an orc just be an elf or an orc imho of course


Just reading this thread for the first time. Looks like a minefield for metaphors.

I don't accept that every half-orc (or even most) are products of rape.

Yes, orcs are powerful, and they take what they want.

These are also attractive qualities genetically and historically. "Nice guys finish last", "Why do women always date the jerks, and never the nice guys" can just as easily apply to other humanoid species, especially in a society where the "norm" ranges from halfings to half-dragons.

What is attractive to you (or what you wish to view as attractive to all) does not necessarily apply in a society where every day is a struggle to survive, and that orc barbarian Grep seems to be doing just fine at bringing in meat and providing for his family.

One could just as easily ask why Grep might want someone as puny and fragile as that human peasant woman. She'd complain all winter long, and take far too much of his time.

What about human males mating with orc women? The woman might be more than self-sufficient and appreciate the consideration both in-and-out of bed that the human male would provide. The human male might like strong self-sufficient women. (Not high-maintenance local chicks).

Of course, it goes without saying that "Once you've gone orc...".

Yes, there are family issues, but then again, depending on the culture, marrying off your daughter, no matter how ugly the son-in-law, is always seen as a good thing. And if your son brings home his orc wife, are you going to send him away, not to take care of you in your old age, or are you going to do your best to accept her, and make your family traditions include hers?

My question is what is the offspring of an orc and an elf? Or of a half-orc and a half-elf?


crmanriq wrote:


My question is what is the offspring of an orc and an elf? Or of a half-orc and a half-elf?

The answer, as of right now, is unplayable!! Though I can't comment of the former but as for the latter that would make the half-orc and half-elf character one-half human, one-fourth orc, and one-fourth elf so I would wager human. But in your campain world they can be anything you (or the GM) says they are!

Dark Archive

crmanriq wrote:

My question is what is the offspring of an orc and an elf? Or of a half-orc and a half-elf?

It has been suggested that humans are some sort of missing link between elfs and orcs, so to speak. Therefore orcs and elevs can breed with humans, but not with each other. However, a half orc and a half elf could theoreticallt produce offspring. In that case theough I would say that their human heritage would win out and the child would, at least mechanically for the purpose of rolling him up, be a human.


crmanriq wrote:
And if your son brings home his orc wife, are you going to send him away, not to take care of you in your old age, or are you going to do your best to accept her, and make your family traditions include hers?

1. Kill the thing.

2. Take the son to get rid of whatever magic is afflicting him.

Dark Archive

Indeed.


The "typical" fantasy trope is;

1. Orcs reproduce rapidly, need more space, and invade human lands, killing and raping as they go. Hey, they're evil!

2. They get beaten back, eventually, only to repeat the process a generation or two later.

3. In the meantime, there is an uneasy truce, of sorts. Neither side can effectively wipe out the other, and only the adventurous or foolish wander into the others' lands. Orcs near the edges of human lands may occasionally raid a hamlet or two, taking human slaves, some of whom will no doubt be raped.

4. Half orcs on either side have to overcome prejudice, like half elves often do. They are quite likely to form relationships with other half orcs, being shunned as they are by their "true" races.

While half orcs are often the result of rape, most human societies aren't as mean as the Spartans, and are reluctant to simply let infants die. They'll raise them, send them to orphanages, or sell them as slaves.

Half orcs can form families and communities of their own, and aren't necessarily evil or chaotic.

I wouldn't want to play a character who was the result of rape, but a half orc who was raised as an orphan or a slave would be okay. He wouldn't know his origin, most likely. The rape is implied, but not proven, staining his image, and giving him a reason to want to prove himself.


Charles Scholz wrote:

I believe half-orcs are a race unto themselves. Sometime in the distant past some isolated groups of humans and orcs were thrust together for mutual survival. Over the centuries, human and orc relationships were quite common. Eventually there were no more pure blood humans or orcs. When finally they were able to rejoin the rest of the world, they were now a race that bred true the best traits of their ancestors. While some may have lower intelligence like the orc, others can have a high intellignece. A half-orc could have starting ability scores with no penalty, or a bonus to one and a penalty to another. It would all depend on the how strong an influence their ancestors' genes are.

I'm really liking the intelligent and compassionate treatment of half-orcs in this thread so far. I recently read the old entry for half-orcs in the 1e rules and it really did sound racist, if I can use that term to apply to a fantasy world.

As an aside, I think this kind of interbreeding is fertile ground (nyuk-nyuk!) for campaign settings and storylines. In the world I am building, I have a very similar situation where an ancient city, now fallen into ruins due to constant internecine conflicts, was the site of a long struggle between goblins and humans. During the era of strife, one race would become dominant for a while, then another. After so many cycles of this, the two races began to negotiate truces. Intermingling and interbreeding occurred, and the entire society underwent a gradual transformation. Currently the area is dominated by the more physically powerful and power-hungry, but this has more to do with individual and group ideologies than it does with a simple factor of race. Although there are some "pure" goblins and "pure" humans around, most of the population is a goblin-human hybrid. The different groups are differentiated along lines of alignment, in terms of the game mechanics.


Shisumo wrote:
One of my concepts for Curse of the Crimson Throne (I get to play! I get to play!) is a half-orc druid, who is unusually misshapen even for a half-orc (Cha 7, Dex 7) - though he is quite strong, his body does not seem to work right when he moves. The orcs that raised him blame his deformities on the fact that his father may not have raped his mother; there are hints that it might have been, of not exactly her idea, at least nonviolent and largely consensual.

Interesting concept!


Pangur Bàn wrote:
Will it? Newly born humans, if we're honest, don't really look that great (more like Yoda with a less green complexion).

Haha! Exposing the overused, "What a beautiful baby!" expression once and for all. It's not necessarily beautiful, or even particularly cute. It's wrinkly, it's goofy, it's tiny. It's a baby.

Pardon the digression. Back to half-orcs.


crmanriq wrote:

Just reading this thread for the first time. Looks like a minefield for metaphors.

I don't accept that every half-orc (or even most) are products of rape.

Yes, orcs are powerful, and they take what they want.

These are also attractive qualities genetically and historically. "Nice guys finish last", "Why do women always date the jerks, and never the nice guys" can just as easily apply to other humanoid species, especially in a society where the "norm" ranges from halfings to half-dragons.

What is attractive to you (or what you wish to view as attractive to all) does not necessarily apply in a society where every day is a struggle to survive, and that orc barbarian Grep seems to be doing just fine at bringing in meat and providing for his family.

One could just as easily ask why Grep might want someone as puny and fragile as that human peasant woman. She'd complain all winter long, and take far too much of his time.

What about human males mating with orc women? The woman might be more than self-sufficient and appreciate the consideration both in-and-out of bed that the human male would provide. The human male might like strong self-sufficient women. (Not high-maintenance local chicks).

Creative approach. I like it.

crmanriq wrote:
Of course, it goes without saying that "Once you've gone orc...".

Funny.

The Exchange

I've often done a game where in the Half-orcs have their own land where Humans and orcs lived so closely for so long that their are very few pure humans or pure Orcs in that region. I have done the same for Half elves, on and Island where everyone has elven and human ancestory in various degrees. it changes the flavor a bit in that they are not outsiders but adds another dimension when they get out to the wider world and most people have the assumption that all half orcs were the product of rapes because that is all they have ever heard of.

Grand Lodge

Charles Scholz wrote:
(I don't hear anyone complaining about Drizzt being good.)

*complains about Drizzt being good*

Grand Lodge

David Fryer wrote:
Since half-orcs are physically stronger and mature faster than a human, I could easily see a thriving black market in half-orc children being raised as slaves.

I like this. In my home campaign, we add an extra element of tragedy. Humans aren't built to handle birthing a half-orc child. The act is so traumatic that it is almost always fatal for the mother.

Half-orcs that survive are generally raised in orphanages.

Contributor

In the game I'm running right now, humans and halflings are not separate species. Halflings are basically pygmies, and you can have halflings crop up in human families and humans crop up in halfling families. And halflings don't like the term "halfling." The general attitude is "We're normal size--you're a giant."

I don't do half-orcs, mostly because the orcs were bussed off to fairyland to be subjects of the troll king. But if/when half-orcs do occur, they'd come about from all the myriad ways that humans can have sex: rape, war brides, elopement, consensual one-night stands, and even consensual relatively happy cross-cultural marriages.

That said, I expect the Pathfinder flavor text to inform me as to where the half-orcs are in Golarian society, rather than where they are in my own world, though I will laugh at anything I find too silly.

I laugh at the 4e tiefling origin, for example.

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