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Turn / Rebuke Undead


Alpha Release 1 General Discussion


Both playtest groups that I'm running have revealed a potential break in the rules for turn/rebuke.

1) Downed goblins with only slightly negative hp were brought awake again by turn undead bursts used as healing.

2) It is obvious that evil clerics are going to surround themselves with undead.

Both of these can be solved with a single feat option, making both effects much more useful:
Selective Turning
Prereq: Turn/Rebuke Undead
Effect: When you pray for your spells, you may declare one group or type of creature as excluded from your aura effects. Alternately, you may declare only one group as included in your aura effects. This lasts until the next time you pray for spells, and never over-rides your ability to include or exclude yourself from the effect.
Potential Work Needed: I think the term 'group' needs to be better defined.

3) Also, evil cleric is the choice PC class for sentient undead critters. I don't have a fix for that yet.

Response from all players is universally positive to the unified cleric aura. Counters are to deal with evil clerics at range and hammer good clerics in melee. And it makes dealing with neutral clerics dicey, until you know which one is which. Overall, this has enhanced the game, and has approval from the playtesters. I'm holding my opinion until I see how it affects the game at levels 3, 5, and maybe 7, when the potential damage/healing becomes that much more.


I don't think that's really a "break" in the rules. If you use the turn for healing, it can heal anything in range. You have to be careful using this in combat if you are fighting the living.

Some undead might be inclined to be clerics, but from a setting perspective, does the undead in question have a reason to follow a particular faith?

That having been said, I'm not opposed to feats that might pinpoint turning or alter how it affects others. I think its a great reason to have new feats, actually.


I really like the changes to turning. Its simple and it makes sense that its about a burst of positive energy. It also means clerics are now casting cleric spells instead of swapping them all out for healing.

As for healing goblins and such in the burst radius: the cleric shouldn't be turning in that situation unless he really has to. I don't agree that there is anything to fix here. It works just fine and as intended.


I second a feat chain for PF turning.

A feat the reduces the healing received to non-allies and second feat that allows you shape the turning radius would be ideal.


I agree with the last. What you consider as breaks in the rules appear to me to be the intended effects.

Turning isnt like casting a cure spell, it isnt as focused. This has the positive effect that it effects all those around you within 30ft.

As you point out though it also has the negetive affect that it... affects everyone within 30ft. :D

One last note, since when has an evil cleric NOT surrounded themselves with undead..?

One thing I would like to add to it though is to give this a function for the more elemental based clerics. I would like to see a feat as follows:

Dark Healing
Your negative energy spells and Rebukes can be used to restore some of your non-undead minions...
Prerequisites: Turn Outsider (Evil), Ability to Rebuke Undead
You can choose to have your Rebuke Undead affect Heal rather than Injure Evil Outsiders in the area.


Again, I'm not sure it's broken; I *AM* testing it farther to be sure. But it DOES lend itself to several more feats than made the Alpha playtest.

Consider from Kalamar: Instead of the normal turn/rebuke effect, they instead get a domain-related effect. This naturally has a pre-requisite of the domain. I'm not saying these should be free, but rather specific feats. Possibly even tied to DEITY rather than domain, thus allowing for different god-of-battle feats.

And there's this humming in the back of my mind saying that a paladin's SMITE EVIL and DETECT evil go well with this, and that Paladins are really just Cleric/Fighters. Maybe clerics can give up their turn/rebuke for a WILD SHAPE, and remove the need for a seperate druid class. But this is why I try to stay away from the rules; it's like silly putty or modeling clay, when you're done with the changes you often can't recognize any part of the original.


Well, one thing I am liking Pathfinder for is to run a Dark Sun game. I never agreed that Dark Sun clerics should've had Turn Undead, so I'm instead converting their Turn/Rebuke effects into an elemental force, so that (for example) an Air Cleric can heal/command air elementals while injuring/frightening earth elementals.

Grand Lodge

Thomas Mack 727 wrote:


Turning isnt like casting a cure spell, it isnt as focused. This has the positive effect that it effects all those around you within 30ft.

Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.

If you don't like the idea that turning heals everyone, you don't need a new feat to fix it. Just alter the wording of the ability so it affects all "allies" within range.

Personally, though, I like the idea of an unfocused positive energy burst healing everyone, friend and foe, within the range.

Qadira

Aberrant Templar wrote:
Personally, though, I like the idea of an unfocused positive energy burst healing everyone, friend and foe, within the range.

Exactly. It's an elegantly simple mechanic. The myriad problems that arise from it aren't necessarily a "break" in the rules, but the natural side effects of having a burst of energy hit an area. It's no different than plunking down a fireball in an area. If you don't want your PCs to be hit, keep them out of it.


As i pointed out in a similar thread, I love the quandries that turning-as-healing bring up.

A party's fighter and ranger are in a pitched battle and dealing out a condsiderable amount of damage between them, but are also taking a beating themselves. They are out of touch range but less than 30 feet away.

A good cleric could heal his allies but also their opponents. Or with turning as harming, an evil cleric could finish off their opponents but also kill someone he cares about a great deal.

-Weylin Stormcrowe

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