Lewy |
Is their any chance of Pathfinder doing their own version of Challenge of Champions like you guys did for Dungeon? My wife has run the last two, and it has become a competition between our Two different gaming groups. I would love to see this continue.
Agreed these ran exceptionally well and gave a campaign a complete chamge of pace. I've used them all to date to the same effect and good response from my players.
Lewis.
Dragonchess Player |
The best thing about a Challenge of Champions is that it's a test of the player's skills, not their character's abilities. A 1st level non-optimized party has as much chance as a 20th level uber-munchin party.
Blackdragon |
The best thing about a Challenge of Champions is that it's a test of the player's skills, not their character's abilities. A 1st level non-optimized party has as much chance as a 20th level uber-munchin party.
Not to mention the players ability to work together to achieve a common goal. It's perfect for showing players their weak points.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Disclamer: While I know that the Challenge of Champions series of adventures that ran in Dungeon were popular... I've never been a fan of them. What I've written below isn't meant to be an attack on the series' author, Jonathan Richards, but more of an explanation why we aren't going to have Challenge of Champions style adventures in Dungeon.
We probably won't be doing a Challenge of Champions style adventure in Pathfinder, mostly because I don't feel that these adventures really fit the themes we're exploring in Golarion.
Additionally... as mentioned above, these adventures don't really challenge the characters. They're designed to challenge players. To me, the concept of an adventure designed to strip away all of your character's abilities and skills and powers to force you to solve problems with your own logic and mind isn't actually an RPG. It's a logic puzzle, or a brain-teaser. Any adventure you can play without once looking at your character sheet is, in my opinion, not the kind of adventure that Pathfinder's interested in presenting. We want to do adventures where your character's abilities DO matter, where what you've accomplished in leveling up and gaining knowledge and power matters.
Further... the Challenge of Champions type adventure was born from a version of the game where there wasn't an integrated skill system. These games are very difficult to design in 3rd edition while keeping the design goal of "usable by any character level." A challenge that requires a complex solution involving two boards, a roll of string, and a block of cheese that takes up 3 pages of description and handouts but can be defeated by one DC 30 Jump check isn't a good way to utilize those three pages in my opinion.
All that said, there WILL be encounters in Pathfinder now and then that require the players to think logically and to put together clues to solve situations. They'll just involve the CHARACTER'S abilities to solve as well.
And in the end, of course, those Challenge of Champions adventures are practically edition free. You can run them for any game, be it D&D, Pathfinder RPG, Call of Cthulhu, Mutants & Masterminds, Top Secret, whatever. They don't really require rules to run. They're not really adventures in my mind as a result, and therefore don't really have a place in a product that presents adventures.
Again, in closing, I'm not trying to pick on Jonathan Richards. His adventures were INCREDIBLY imaginative and complex. They're also horrifically difficult to edit and lay out, and often their puzzles include elements that not all of our readers can enjoy (Many of the Challenges included word-play puzzles, which are broken the instant someone who doesn't speak English tries to read them or play them, for example.)
So... nope. No Challenges of Champions for Pathfinder. If there's a strong enough call from our readers for something like this, though, there's a chance we might do something along these lines as a stand-alone product, I suppose. (Of course, the name "Challenge of Champions" is owned by Wizards of the Coast, so we'd have to name it something else...)
weirmonken |
I'm dredging this thread out of the depths to express my appreciation for Jonathan Richards.
Although I can see the reasons why you wouldn't want a Challenge of Champions series in Golarion, I would love to see work from Mr. Richards published by Paizo. He also did an excellent scenario, Gorgoldand's Gauntlet, which was included in a promo for Dungeon 87, and one of the first 3e adventures I ran. It was incredibly fun, and mixed puzzle elements into a standard dungeon crawl.
Speaking more generally, I would be very pleased to see more puzzles incorporated into Pathfinder.
Richards |
I just discovered this thread today and it brought a big smile to my face (since that's where I tend to keep my smiles), as I have had some similar thoughts of my own in recent months.
James Jacobs was very courteous in his disclaimer above (thanks, James!), but truth be told I share a lot of his concerns. The "Challenge of Champions" series DID seem to work best in the AD&D 2E days, and it has been increasingly difficult to come up with new additions to the series in a 3E world. (Disclaimer of my own: I'm still playing 3.5, not because I dislike Pathfinder but because I - and my players - still enjoy 3.5 and I have enough 3.5 material to tide me over probably for the rest of my gaming career. I do own the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and both Bestiaries to date, however, and will be purchasing Bestiary 3 upon its release.) "Challenge of Champions" is also admittedly an acquired taste, and not the sort of thing that everyone enjoys, so I can certainly understand James' disinclination to want to publish another entry in the series.
But my players still enjoy them, and so half a year or more ago I set about to write "Challenge of Champions VII," with the following thoughts:
- I'm going to write this for my own campaign's use anyway, but it would be cool if I could also get it published.
- Wizards of the Coast is out, as they'd only be interested in 4E material and I have absolutely no desire to learn 4E.
- I'm not really aware of any third-party publishers who still print 3.5 adventures.
- My best bet would therefore probably be Paizo; luckily, I have the core rules and could probably convert any 3.5 "Challenge of Champions" adventures I write to the Pathfinder rules.
- If I take this path (no pun intended), I'll need to steer clear of word-based puzzles (as I know I'll probably have to get this past Sean K. Reynolds, and he hates those), and I'll need to come up with a new name for this (as mentioned above, Wizards of the Coast now owns the "Challenge of Champions" name).
- As long as I'm renaming it, I might as well come up with a new reason for having this series of contests rather than using it as a test sponsored by the local Adventurers Guild.
So, with all that in mind, I came up with a new concept: a group of dwarven clerics creates a testing facility to hone the skills of their flock; each scenario would be similar to a "Challenge of Champions" scenario but would have a "lesson" at the end of it, demonstrating a dwarven truism. There would be twelve tests in all, and due to typical dwarven pragmatism there wouldn't be any of this "fake danger" nonsense; if a scenario called for you to fight your way past a summoned monster, you'd have to fight your way past a summoned monster, not an illusion of a summoned monster managed by a Guild proctor who told you when you were "dead."
Writing it for my own campaign was easy enough, as I used the 3.5 rules that I'm familiar with. However...
- I found it too inhibiting to remove word puzzles from my arsenal. I enjoy word puzzles, my players enjoy word puzzles, and I know many gamers also enjoy word puzzles, and it just seemed silly to avoid all word puzzles so that I might have a better chance at getting this published in various languages. (Sorry, guys, but my home campaign took precedence; it wouldn't have turned out as cool as it did if I avoided all word puzzles.)
- Many "Challenge of Champions" adventures have a final scenario based on the previous scenarios (or, more accurately, the names of the previous scenarios). This proved to be the case with this adventure as well - and to make matters worse, it has an English-based word puzzle at its root.
- To make matters even worse to non-English speakers, I created a poem inscribed at the beginning of the twelve challenges that gave a hint as to what the contestants would be encountering along the way, and the best way to make it through the challenges. As I'm an English speaker (and writer), the poem is written in English (although in the game world it's written in Dwarven; I have absolutley no compunctions about hand-waving the fact that the rhyme and meter both translate effectively when read in the Dwarven tongue). But this no doubt makes it even less attractive to Paizo.
Eventually, I opted not to even bother trying to get it published, for the reasons stated above. As a result, it's still firmly ensconced in its 3.5 rules and name, "Moradin's Forge." (Obviously, had I submitted it to Paizo it would have had to undergo a name change, probably to whatever the Moradin equivalent is in the Golarion campaign world.)
Sorry to have typed all of this up for you to read just to get to "but it doesn't look like I'll ever publish it," but that's where it stands. On the plus side, though, my players went through it and enjoyed it. (We only have one dwarf in our campaign, a cohort to our half-orc barbarian, so I had the party discover a sentient dwarven holy symbol in a dragon's hoard in a previous adventure, and after the dwarf wore it for a week and the holy symbol deemed him worthy it transmitted the location of Moradin's Forge into his mind.) As a "scoring system," the Forge gave each player a free weapon property upgrade depending upon how close they matched the dwarven ideal.
In any case, thanks for the kind words about the now-defunct "Challenge of Champions" series, and happy gaming, all!
Johnathan
weirmonken |
Sorry to have typed all of this up for you to read just to get to "but it doesn't look like I'll ever publish it," but that's where it stands. On the plus side, though, my players went through it and enjoyed it. (We only have one dwarf in our campaign, a cohort to our half-orc barbarian, so I had the party discover a sentient dwarven holy symbol in a dragon's hoard in a previous adventure, and after the dwarf wore it for a week and the holy symbol deemed him worthy it transmitted the location of Moradin's Forge into his mind.) As a "scoring system," the Forge gave each player a free weapon property upgrade depending upon how close they matched the dwarven ideal.
Jonathan,
Glad to hear from you!
As mentioned above, there are a number of 3rd party publishers for Pathfinder, although many of them focus on player options, not adventures. If you're interested in seeing Moradin's Forge in print, here's a list of 3PPs that have released scenarios:
As this list is fairly expansive, I'll start with the publishers whose work I've seen and have been impressed with:
Frog God Games: bill@talesofthefroggod.com <- Run by Bill Webb, former partner in Necromancer Games, they publish for both Swords & Wizardry (an OD&D retroclone) and Pathfinder. As such, they're more likely to be keen on puzzle-based adventures, and generally put out high-quality products.
Expeditious Retreat Press: JosephBrowning@gmail.com <- They release products for both 1st Edition and Pathfinder, and release a lot of very good adventures.
Open Design: Submission Guidelines here. <- Run by Wolfgang Baur, Open Design generally isn't looking for longer adventures, but with your pedigree, who knows?
Gaming Paper: info@gmaingpaper.com <- Since they've worked with such venerable talents as Ed Greenwood and Steven Schend, I think they'd be very interested in hearing from you.
Pelgrane Press: simon@dyingearth.com <- Pelgrane is primarily a non-d20 publisher, but has put out a couple Pathfinder-compatible products and makes some of the best products on the market today.
Super Genius Games: stan@supergeniusgames.com, hyrum@supergeniusgames.com <- Super Genius Games doesn't produce a lot of adventures, but they do run Dungeonaday.com and, as such, could possibly be interested in releasing Moradin's Forge as a short dungeon.
The following list is of publishers I don't have enough experience to really comment on, and as such I'd suggest looking at them carefully, as I'd can't recommend them one way or another:
KromeDragon Productions: oclark86@gmail.com
Sneak Attack Press: info@sneakattackpress.com
Total Party Kill Games: submissions@tpkgames.com
Adamant Entertainment: gms@adamantentertainment.com
Fourth Dimension Games: contact@4th-dimensiongames.com
0one Games: obully@0onegames.com
Avalon Game Company: avalon@comstar-games.com
Corvus Lunaris: enquiries@corvuslunaris.co.uk
Gunmetal Games: Contact page here.
Headless Hydra Games: storyguide.axel@gmail.com
Interaction Point Games: Contact page here.
Raging Swan Press: gatekeeper@ragingswan.com
Rite Publishing: steve@ritepublishing.com
Sagawork Studios: sagawork.studios@gmail.com
Silver Crescent: daniel@realmsoftwilight.net
Louis Porter Jr. Design: lmpjr007@gmail.com
Necromancers of the Northwest: ariggs@necromancers-online.com
As you mentioned above, however, the Challenge of Champions is actually a better fit for previous editions of the game. You're probably already aware, but there's a number of retroclone publishers out there which could be worth looking at. Outside of Expeditious Retreat Press and Frog God Games, who have already been brought up, here's a list of folks to take a look at:
Fight On! Magazine: Online discussion forum here.
Knockspell Magazine: Submission guidelines here.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess: lotfp@lotfp.com
You may also want to consider publishing it yourself, either through Lulu.com or even as a desktop publication. Not only do you get complete creative control, there can actually be some good money in it. More info from someone who has done so here.
If you don't find a publishing arrangement that suits you, I would still be very interested in taking a look at the scenario. If you're feeling generous, you can send whatever notes you've compiled to:
I would certainly appreciate it!
Oh, and if you'll forgive me, I do have a couple questions as a fan:
1. How did you get involved in puzzle design? Do you have any suggestions for DMs who want to design their own puzzle elements into a scenario? Are there any books you found particularly helpful in this regard?
2. Do you have any further plans to write material for RPGs?
Thanks for dropping in!
Richards |
Weirmonken: Thanks for the extensive list! I'm sure that represents an awful lot of time and effort on your part, and I certainly appreciate it.
To answer your specific questions:
How did you get involved in puzzle design?
I've enjoyed puzzles for as long as I can remember. As a little kid I liked doing mazes and find-a-word puzzle books, got into crossword puzzles when I was a bit older, and currently enjoy sudoku puzzles. I remember freaking myself out when I was about 8 years old and on a cross-country camping trip with my family, looking at the name "PONTIAC" on the car driving in front of us, and realizing it was an anagram (although I wasn't aware of that word at the time) of "CAPTION."
As for puzzle design, the original "Challenge of Champions" adventure was my first real stab at puzzle design for an RPG. The core concept is something I took from "Project X," a leadership challenge that they send you through as an Air Force Captain when you attend Squadron Officers School. It's a series of challenges, usually of the "get from point A to point B in so many minutes using only the equipment provided" sort, and you get graded not only on your ability to meet the goal but also on how you work with the other members of your team, make use of the provided equipment, etc. After going through it myself (which was definitely my favorite part of SOS), I wondered if such a concept could be carried over into AD&D.
And I'll let you in on a little secret: although I had been playing AD&D for years at that time, I was fairly uncertain just how one went about writing an adventure that was specifically geared for "X level." (Remember, this was before the concept of Challenge Ratings.) One of the reasons the "Challenge of Champions" series was designed to be for characters of any level was because I wasn't sure just what level it was appropriate for otherwise.
Do you have any suggestions for DMs who want to design their own puzzle elements into a scenario?
The best advice I can give to a budding puzzle-writer is to be familiar with the types of puzzles that might be appropriate. For me, with the "Challenge of Champions" series, the first thing I do is decide whether I want a unifying theme. Usually, this is the final scenario, which often hinges on the names of the previous scenarios in the challenge (and then using a word-based puzzle for the last scenario). In such a case, I need to design the last scenario first, so that I can then figure out a way to create the other puzzles with names that are useful for the solving of the last scenario.
Another useful way to generate puzzles for RPGs is to pore through the magic items and spell descriptions and see if there's a "hook" that can be used to generate a puzzle. Often, this is using the spell or item in a way it's not usually intended, or focusing on a lesser aspect of the spell or item. (For example, rope trick is best known for its extradimensional space, but it's also a perfectly good way to create a vertical anchored rope for climbing.) Don't forget the cursed items, too, as some scenarios involve trying to figure out which of two identical-looking items is the "good" one.
Are there any books you found particularly helpful in this regard?
Not off the top of my head. I remember there was a good article in Dragon some years back by Mike Selinker that had some very useful advice for puzzle design in dungeons, though.
Do you have any further plans to write material for RPGs?
It's funny in a way, but when I was at the peak of my Dragon and Dungeon freelancing I was between campaigns and didn't have a gaming group for the most part. Of course, this gave me plenty of time for writing articles and adventures for publication. With the advent of 4E and my unwillingness to move on from 3.5, my freelancing came to an abrupt halt, but at around the same time I started up my present campaign, and the extra time I've had to write adventures for my home group is something I wouldn't have had if I were still freelancing at the same rate I had been. So it's kind of balanced. Of course, the adventures I write now are very focused on my particular gaming group, and aren't fit for publication in their current form. (I wrote a really cool tomb delve, for example, but it had a puzzle door that involved the names of various deities in the Greyhawk pantheon, so that's out.) I had pretty much figured my freelancing days were over, but with your list above, who knows? :) Thanks again!
Johnathan