What do you want in a Player's Guide?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Paizo Employee Creative Director

SO! By now, folk have seen the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide and the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. Here at Paizo, we're gearing up to start work on the Second Darkness Player's Guide (which is, in fact, the first Pathfinder Companion). We've got more room in this one than the previous two...

Which brings me to this question. Is there anything that you feel was missing in the first two Adventure Path Player's Guides we've done so far? Anything we did include that you felt we gave the short-shift to and should expand upon? Anything you think we did include that we SHOULDN'T have included?

The Exchange

I would like to see more regional feats and more varied regional feats. At least one good feat tailor-made for each class. Other than that I really like the new equipment that you guys added. More please!
Some local legends and myths-"down in the hollow there be a tree made of tears and if'n ye swim down amonst the roots ye be findin' a way inta the Tomb o' de Nymph-witch!". Little blurbs to get the DMs imaginings going and possibly be something to work up into a sidetrek or something.
That's all I got...

Dark Archive

I think you should have included more gazeteer information on areas the pcs are likely to be from, or go to. Just a brief paragraph or two on each area, to get their appetite whetted for the world.

A few legends, stories, or snippets of history would be nice as well, especially if it is relevant to the campaign arc.

Perhaps suggestions to the players (who are the audience) on how they can meet and form an adventuring group, or appropriate backgrounds to coincide with each other.

Lastly, a synopsis of the kind of challenges they will undertake. Nothing too specific, but so they know whether it's an urban campaign, a campaign with lots of undead, a naval campaign that will venture to the lower planes, or the like.

That's my 2 farthings.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

One of the things we've been very cautious about in the Player's Guides is the spoiler scene. Can we be a little less cautious? Would it matter if, for example, in the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, we warned the PCs in advance that they'll eventually be heading into high mountain terrain?

Scarab Sages

I don't really want spoilers but I wouldn't mind just a little more geographical and historical general knowledge in the player's books.

And maybe one or two prestige class opportunities that might arise during the course of the adventure.

And perhaps a bit of player knowledge about one or two of the major religions that will be a part of the path.

Dark Archive Contributor

Archade wrote:
Lastly, a synopsis of the kind of challenges they will undertake. Nothing too specific, but so they know whether it's an urban campaign, a campaign with lots of undead, a naval campaign that will venture to the lower planes, or the like.

So to give hints to rangers as to which favored enemies to take (in a very general sense, of course), or something like that?

Scarab Sages

Mike McArtor wrote:
Archade wrote:
Lastly, a synopsis of the kind of challenges they will undertake. Nothing too specific, but so they know whether it's an urban campaign, a campaign with lots of undead, a naval campaign that will venture to the lower planes, or the like.
So to give hints to rangers as to which favored enemies to take (in a very general sense, of course), or something like that?

That would be rather nice.

I would also suggest besides more regional feats, that perhaps information on unique familiar/animal companions used in the area would be nice as well. One or two flavorful companion options could help define the differences between regions.

for example, you could have listed imps and psuedo-dragons for Korvosa.


I think some prestige classes would be great like in AOW the Guy who ate Kyuss Worms and got powers (maybe not that much a spoiler) but you know

Scarab Sages

i think the player's guide should inform the players as to where they are coming from without letting them know too much about where they are going to go.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Personally, I think more and varied regional feats is a good idea, although I don't like the concept of making one for each class. That leads to throwing in feats that might not really fight the area, just to make sure that class X has a feat in this book. I think the regional feats should be as class non-specific as possible, while still retaining the regional feel.

Also, I'd like to see some prestige classes in there as well. Now that you have more room, you can maybe afford to throw and extra page or two at things like the Pathfinder or Hellknight: Order of the Nail. As long as they fit in with the theme of the AP, it should work. Again, you don't necessarily have to have every class covered.

Finally, I think there should be a little bit of information about some of the challenges the party will face. Nothing spoilerific, just some general info. It'd suck to create a cleric, for example, and dump a bunch of feats into boosting your turn undead ability, then never once encounter undead. Or have a ranger take Orc as the favored enemy, when there are none in the AP. This is kind of a tough one to nail down, how much is too much? But I think you all know what you're doing, and will make the right decision in this regard. :)

Grand Lodge

I think the first 2 Players' Guides had good info on what it meant to be Varisian or Shoanti (although more would still be welcome), but there was definite room for more about being Cheliaxian. A couple of paragraphs about the Empire, and about other possible Human backgrounds would be welcome (Linnorm, Vudran, Absalomian?, etc).

I agree that a quick non-specific preview would be welcome: enough to pick appropriate classes, races, favoured enemies, etc.

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
One of the things we've been very cautious about in the Player's Guides is the spoiler scene. Can we be a little less cautious? Would it matter if, for example, in the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, we warned the PCs in advance that they'll eventually be heading into high mountain terrain?

IMHO, you can be a little less cautious.

(Please forgive my using Star Wars in the following example)
In my experience, players don't want to know that Darth Maul fights with a double lightsaber or when he shows up, but they do appreciate knowing they will be facing a sith at one point. It helps them create a character that is more in synch with the campaign, which makes it more enjoyable and memorable for them.

And one more vote for more regional info (gazetteer type stuff).

Dark Archive

Mike McArtor wrote:
So to give hints to rangers as to which favored enemies to take (in a very general sense, of course), or something like that?

Yeah! Exactly.

When I ran Shackled City in the FR, here's what I wrote in their player packages, to warn my players - I used 'clip scenes' from the AP, sort of like a television season premiere (with those 1 second scenes from upcoming episodes).

The heroes battle a flying demoness with bat wings and a spear with glowing amber runes, who is aided by a burning figure with a snakelike tail instead of legs, wielding a glowing trident. The battle rages in a tilted, ruined hall, white marble walls cracked and elegant furniture shattered, while red lightning dances outside the windows, illuminating a blasted plain with sulfurous clouds and withered black trees. Without warning or cause, the chamber around them begins to glow with a soft white light, and suddenly all is whole, and outside of this celestial hall, green fields and flights of soaring angels can be seen. Dancing balls of light flit about the chamber, and the battle resumes¡K

ľ

An otherworldly fiend with burning eyes appears in a gout of fire. He sweeps his sword, gesturing in your direction. In the blue actinic light of electrical charge that leaps and arcs along his sword blade, he demands that you hand over the soul which is rightfully his¡K

ľ

The sky is burning. Gouts of flame shoot down from the heavens, alighting the city, with fire white hot that even causes stone to burn. Townsfolk run screaming in the street, and overhead, a dragon covered in heavy scales soars down from the sky. It heavily lands on the rooftop of a temple, partially crushing it. It spreads its wings and roars a challenge to the small townsfolk scurrying about in the burning streets below. The heroes look up from the crowd, and the dragon stares directly at them, knowing they harbor something he wants.

ľ

Mulan nobles, priests of the various temples in Taskaunt, and some half-elven men with blades on their belts have gathered in the Hierarch¡¦s Hall ¡V there is much shouting and gesturing, and a young woman with gray streaks in her hair and fear in her eyes turns imploringly to you. Not all the nobles are pleased with the presence of the heroes, and some scowl menacingly.

ľ

A huge half-dragon stands in the street, bellowing your name. He demands an answer to his challenge, and the townsfolk look to you for an answer.

Much like a television or movie trailer, the listed items above are some selected scenes of the action I have hope to use ¡V partially to build anticipation, and partially to give some insight to the flavor of campaign I am hoping to achieve.

I recommend players take characters that can work cooperatively, investigate mysterious happenings, operate in urban environments unobtrusively (or at least be able to frequent a Tea Shop in Escalant), make friends and allies, fight against mysterious cults and organizations, and take up arms against dragons, fiends, undead, and all manner of creatures as yet undiscovered.

Set on the western fringes of Thay, in a small town that is a coastal port surrounded by hills, forest, and swamps, horses are not likely to be useful. There will be sufficient wilderness activity to warrant a druid or ranger, all characters will need to explain why they begin the campaign in Taskaunt. The local language is Untheric, with many people speaking Chessentan, Damaran, Rashemi, and Mulhorandi in a mixing pot of cultures.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I would say a bit more of a Gaz but only vague information. Like names of local mountain ranges, rivers. Names of town and cities in the over all area with a small blurb about them. Local legends ect.

Basically the type of stuff you would expect adventures that wander around the country side stopping in many different inns and swapping tales would hear about.

It would be best of it was present from a more In Character point of view too. If written well it could be a fun read, perhaps told by one of the or a section each by some of the previous iconics, point of view from their travels.


I dunno, I really like what you all have done with the past two player's guides. If anything, the setting info is the most important, as it's what helps the players insert their characters into the world. Things like important people the PCs may know, current rumors, stuff like that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

More cultural information. Like the Varisia info from PF3 and the People of the Road info from PF6 would have been very helpful earlier on.

More regional feats. I like the ones we got, but there's many D20 feats out there that wouldn't break the game if they or something similar were brought into Pathfinder. Luck of the Hero is one of my favorites. :)

Regional prestige classes! There are some jobs.. like Sable Company that could be a Prestige class. Yes the majority of them might be Rangers, but what about the elite marines with lots of experience and training. You don't have to be the prestige class to be a Sable Company Marine, but there can be benefits to being amongst the best. Bonus aerial combat feats could be granted, skill bonus to riding, reduction in penalties for mounted combat, etc.

I hate to use this as an example.. but think Top Gun. Normal naval fighter pilot (ranger) vs Top Gun program trained pilot (prestige class.)

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

I enjoy getting into character early on and making ties to the NPCs by having a mentor (doing it now in STAP has helped my whole group get very attached to all sorts of random, non-plot-centric NPCs around Sasserine). So in addition to regional feats and descriptions of the area, making additional pseudo-feats (like a small bonus to one skill or a save bonus with very specific conditions) for choosing from a list of NPC mentors based on class, alignment, ethnicity, etc. would be awesome. It would be small enough to be primarily flavor, but any bonus is motivation for a 1st level character to get involved (hey, +1 to anything when you have 5 hp is a big deal.)

The affiliations that occupied a lot of the Worm Food and Savage Tidings articles would also be cool to know up front. With Pathfinder coming out in only a single issue, it's harder to mete out player/DM material as the adventure progresses, but to start with a bit more than a player has context for at least gives them the ability to use it later on when they see how it fits.

Sovereign Court

A few ideas:

Player's Maps - both regional and local. Don't make the DM have to try to create these out of his maps. Give PC's who "live in town" enough info about "town" to actually seem like a resident.

Include regional skills/feats - this is nice flavor - but also highlight standard feats/skills that would be popular in this particular region. "Because of the caravans it's a given that everyone here knows how to ride a horse."

Continue to improve upon "you meet in a bar". The 2nd player's guide had this, it was the best part. Provide hooks for the varying classes. This includes major temples, troublesome monsters in the area (for rangers, etc.), and schools of magic that might be popular/not.

Give a short history of recent major events (town destroyed, etc.) This provides flavor, but also provides PC hooks. "My family disappeared 3 years ago in the Raid on Zanzibar."

Info on Major families/groups - including a metagame sidebar of "who can my character be related to/work for"? Help the DM avoid the "oops I'm the cousin of the major villian" problem later on.

I would also recommend you put the 1st level pre-gen characters in the players guide. This will allow the folks creating PC's from scratch to see what sort of classes/skills/feats you had in mind for the campaign. It will also give new or time-constricted players the ability to just choose one and go.

Sovereign Court

Mike McArtor wrote:
Archade wrote:
Lastly, a synopsis of the kind of challenges they will undertake. Nothing too specific, but so they know whether it's an urban campaign, a campaign with lots of undead, a naval campaign that will venture to the lower planes, or the like.
So to give hints to rangers as to which favored enemies to take (in a very general sense, of course), or something like that?

Absolutely.

If I'm designing my own open ended campaign with my buddies and one is a ranger focused on undead, then I (as the DM) occasionally put some undead in the game so he has some fun stuff to do. That's my job as the DM, to tailor the game to the players skills so they are challenged using their character concepts. Sure an occasional Giant will show up, but if I continually throw Giants at him, he gets frustrated and doesn't have as much fun.

But with an AP, you (Paizo) control the campaign at that level. I really see the AP as somewhere between a self-designed campaign and a convention game with pre-gens. The DM doesn't have as much leeway on the monsters involved, without some major reworking. So the Ranger should be given some clues ahead of time where to focus. It's just the right thing to do to make the game fun for all and easy to run.


The background hooks you provided involving Gaedren Lamm were perfect. I would like to see similiar for the future player's guides. My players are terrible at that sort of thing. If I have something I can email to them and say here, pick from one of these, and it gives an automatic tie-in for their characters to know each other then that would be great.

regional feats/prestige classes: These are fine but please don't overwhelm us.

The general information on the region to help rangers pick out favored enemies would be good. This sort of info really helps all classes. My friend recently ran an enchanter in an adventure which gave very little opportunity to use the abilities.

A little less cautious as has been said before. With the wealth of adventure paths we have available to run now, I have been more liberal with the info I give to my players when I start a new one so they can help pick what they would like me to run. I would rather give a little extra info out, and have happy players because they are involved in an adventure that appeals to their style.

What about a page of character drawings that could be photocopied and cut up to tape/glue right onto character sheets? Something similiar was done back in the days of Dungeon.

spells/items- I personally prefer these types of things to all be kept in one place(their own book) However, general equipment/alchemy for the area would be good.

Grand Lodge

My previous post got eaten by Jabberjaw.

I'd like to see more info for various human ethnicities in Varisia, especially Chelaxians (general info on Empire, Aroden, current relations). Info for "foreigners" in Varisia also welcome.

More elvish background (Varisia-specific) also useful, and can serve as preview for "Elves of Golarion".


How would people feel about having some pre-generated characters in the book that have a cool history/back story that ties to the adventures starting location or even a location that will come up in the adventure path?

They could be used by players as starting characters if they are short on inspiration or used as replacement characters if some one dies. I know there are 4 in the adventure path, but these are more generic characters that are not tied to the path itself.

Feel free to poo poo the idea, just thought I would throw it out there as one of my players is really struggling for ideas for a replacement character in our AP.

Liberty's Edge

Ok, I didn't read all posts (as usual, sorry), so if anything already came up, I apoligize!

More Gaz would be cool! Open secrets, relationships and so on...

What I would like to see in a Player's Guide is not only info of what classes might get the most out of the path, but also where the heavy part of the AP plays (wilderness (with specifications if its about mountains, woods, oceans etc.), city or dungeon).

If there will be prestige classes available.

Some people which the players might already know (no matter if they play a role inthe AP or not), so that they have some contacts from the beginning.

It would be also fine, to give players a level range for the whole AP, so that they know at which levels play probably ends.

The DATE and season when the campaign beginns (or at least the current year), as my players ALWAYS ask me this!

The others things I had in mind had already been posted.
And thanx for asking in the first place!!!

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
One of the things we've been very cautious about in the Player's Guides is the spoiler scene. Can we be a little less cautious? Would it matter if, for example, in the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, we warned the PCs in advance that they'll eventually be heading into high mountain terrain?

I look upon little spoiler scenes like a great trailer to a movie. If I know what I can expect from it, the higher my anticipation.

Concerning the mountain question above: First, see my post above. Second: anything that helps players customize their characters to the AP helps. The info into what terrain a campaign might head into is fine!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

More background information and hooks which allow the players to create characters that are integrated in the world. I'd like to see regional quirks, sayings, and legends.

I don't really care for spoilerish info, would rather see more space devoted to integrating the characters in to the world.

With that said, I think the PGs have been quite good, and CoCT's is definitely an improvement.

Sovereign Court

Dryder wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Would it matter if, for example, in the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, we warned the PCs in advance that they'll eventually be heading into high mountain terrain?

I look upon little spoiler scenes like a great trailer to a movie. If I know what I can expect from it, the higher my anticipation.

Ditto. A bit of preview helps get the players excited about the AP.

(Jeff Probst voiceover) "Next Season on Survivor:Varisia!"


All DMs are evil wrote:
How would people feel about having some pre-generated characters in the book that have a cool history/back story that ties to the adventures starting location or even a location that will come up in the adventure path?

I like this. For the first iteration of the iconics (when they're all first-level) they could be in the player's guide instead of the AP. After that (as they advance in level) they could be included in the subsequent volumes of the path.


If the pregenerated characters can fit on a pair of pages (single page front and back), I don't think that's too much room in a 32 page supplement, and like the idea of their inclusion. If they have particularly interesting backstories, I could even see taking up 4 pages total (one character per page). I wouldn't devote any more room to the guide than that.

I agree that the regional feats are 100% win. Every AP I've run or played in, at least a couple of players have made good use of them. Currently, I'm taking a break from DMing, and had a great time explaining in my character backstory how a wizard of Chelish descent ended up with a Varisian evocation tattoo.

I'd like to see a short write-up on what kind of feats and builds will be appropriate for each class, like in the Shackled City hardcover. Likewise, a short write-up of local communities where the non-human races may live would come in handy if the starting town is not very cosmopolitan.

One thing that I didn't like about the Savage Tide PG was the focus on Sasserine. For the first adventure, it was great, with my players really feeling like they were a part of the city. And the backdrop of Sasserine itself was one of the finest fantasy cities I've seen created.

However, my players' painstakingly created backgrounds and ties to the city became useless after the second adventure. If future APs follow similar structure of leaving for parts unknown, less emphasis on the starting locale would be appreciated.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I am pretty happy with the way the previous Player's Guides were released, especially the one for Curse of the Crimson Throne, which I just reread this morning. Slightly more information about the home town would have been fine if there was space.

As for giving away, more, I'd rather leave that to the individual DM, although I do in fact give away such info myself sometimes. For example, in my current Red Hand of Doom campaign (minor spoilers ahead)...

Spoiler:
I did tell my player rolling up a ranger that goblinoids and dragons would be a good choice for favored enemies, and I told my cleric player that he would have a chance to battle some undead, but that I wouldn't suggest making it a focus of his character.

Sczarni

underling wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
Archade wrote:
Lastly, a synopsis of the kind of challenges they will undertake. Nothing too specific, but so they know whether it's an urban campaign, a campaign with lots of undead, a naval campaign that will venture to the lower planes, or the like.
So to give hints to rangers as to which favored enemies to take (in a very general sense, of course), or something like that?

That would be rather nice.

I seem to be in the minority on this. I would rather see 1 pages of non 'history book' style. More 'guide to korvosa' like than appendix in the back of the module

Scarab Sages

Hi
I agree with many of the above ideas. I will reiterate them as a show of support and add one or two. In no particular order:
Yes to Regional feats, and yes to them not necessarily being class or combat specific
Also some regional skills that PCs could take as class skills, or maybe some skills that locals get a +2 bonus for the check
Maybe background packages with the above feats and or skills.
Maybe regional favored classes for multi-classing, like if one region is famous for its Bards, Bard is a favored class for characters from that area and you don't incur multi-class xp penalty for levels in that class
Yes to local color: the locales, the folk, famous NPCs, local legends, what types of creatures are found locally (i.e. for favored enemies, familiars, companions etc.), known organizations (government, guilds, schools, notorious bandit gangs, etc.)
Maybe some sample names from the different communities or cultures.
Maybe a little bonus info online

Dark Archive

Boerngrim wrote:


Maybe some sample names from the different communities or cultures.

I like this suggestion.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Acev wrote:
Boerngrim wrote:


Maybe some sample names from the different communities or cultures.
I like this suggestion.

Even a suggestion of "real-world equivalents" (i.e., Lands of the Linnorm Kings > Denmark/Norway/Sweden, Minkai > Japan, Tian Xia > China) for names would help people who want their character's name to fit with their background (Internet search for "names [country]"). This would save space for more setting information.


I definately agree with name suggestions, that'd help alot.

Dark Archive

I think the regional feats are good and could be expanded a bit. At the very least, I would like to see something useful for each archetype if not each class specifically. I also think some sort of outline of future events makes at least some sense so that players can custimize their characters for the sorts of challenges they are likely to face. The best example was McCartor's point about Ranger favored enemies. If the final BBEG is going to be a Dragon for instance, it would be nice to have put max points into Dragon as a favored enemy over the course of the AP.

Something I would like to see added is perhaps flavorful alternate class features that tie into the region. Prestige classes would be great for that too, but I like the idea of player options that really invest the characters in the region the campaign is going to take place.

One final request is perhaps a list of organizations that players can be a part of from day one that tie into the setting as well. You could even tie in your regional feats and prestige classes to these organiztions. You could then update the players responsibilities and benefits from those organizations as the campaign progresses. Think things like the Church of the Whirling Fury from STAP, only with feats and prestige classes that tie into those organizations. I like the gear that you put in specific to the setting, and I would love to see gear that ties into the campaign theme. So perhaps some sort of spelunking gear or whatever since this one is focused on the Underdark, or maybe some kind of sea faring gear for a swashbuckling ocean type campaign.

Final thing, is keep up the good work. The level of quality in every product you are making for Pathfinder is just awesome. Thank you for that, and I can't wait to see what you have in store for us.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Brent wrote:
One final request is perhaps a list of organizations that players can be a part of from day one that tie into the setting as well. You could even tie in your regional feats and prestige classes to these organiztions. You could then update the players responsibilities and benefits from those organizations as the campaign progresses. Think things like the Church of the Whirling Fury from STAP, only with feats and prestige classes that tie into those organizations. I like the gear that you put in specific to the setting, and I would love to see gear that ties into the campaign theme. So perhaps some sort of spelunking gear or whatever since this one is focused on the Underdark, or maybe some kind of sea faring gear for a swashbuckling ocean type campaign.

Organizations are tough to do, unfortunately. That's one of the lessons I learned from Savage Tide. If you want to include a lot of organizations in an Adventure Path, they sort of have to be a primary PART of the Path, otherwise you get a situation like we did in Savage Tide where only one or two of the organizations really had a presence throughout the entire campaign, while most of them ended up being forgotten.

It didn't help that the affiliation rules were kind of boring and clunky, I suppose.

THAT SAID: I suspect that we'll be having several PC-friendly organizations in the Player's Companions. We'll have to come up with rules for them, of course, and they won't generally be a big part of the Adventure Paths except for paths that are ABOUT organizations...


I think its enough to know how to stay in good standing with your organization, and a few benefits of that group (if you have clerical support, can you get healed, uncursed, restored "at cost" for example).

I was mixed on the affiliations in 3.5. I liked the idea, but every time I started making my own, or looking at existing organizations, I always thought that this or that group should have more options than those presented, and in some cases it just felt like you were paying for a bonus to something.

Liberty's Edge

I completely agree. Affiliations should be less about constant bonuses to stats and more about services and contacts you can access - who you know, not what you can do. Spellcasting, equipment, hirelings, etc., should be the benefits of being part of an organization, not a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

Edit: In the PRPG, the "complete an important accomplishment" aspect of story awards might also be a way to include affiliations in character design - if a given adventure includes significant benefits for an affiliation, completing it could increase the story award for characters with that affiliation... As long as no single organization is used this way too frequently, it shouldn't be a big deal for balance purposes...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I think its enough to know how to stay in good standing with your organization, and a few benefits of that group (if you have clerical support, can you get healed, uncursed, restored "at cost" for example).

I was mixed on the affiliations in 3.5. I liked the idea, but every time I started making my own, or looking at existing organizations, I always thought that this or that group should have more options than those presented, and in some cases it just felt like you were paying for a bonus to something.

Affiliations SHOULD be a part of the game. They're too useful to not be. Every religion should be treated as an affiliation. Thieves guilds. Wizard schools. Monastic orders. Fighting schools. Craftsmen guilds. Governments. The list goes on.

BUT: The crunch involved should be, I think, treated more like the rules for PCs leveling up. There should be some way for the majority of the tracking and all that to be handled by the PC, rather than forcing the GM to drastically alter campaings half-way through just because the night before one of his players saw Gangs of New York and suddenly his character joins one of his hometown gangs even though the GM's plan for the campaign requires the PCs to leave the city and go somewhere like the North Pole.


James Jacobs wrote:
BUT: The crunch involved should be, I think, treated more like the rules for PCs leveling up. There should be some way for the majority of the tracking and all that to be handled by the PC, rather than forcing the GM to drastically alter campaings half-way through just because the night before one of his players saw Gangs of New York and suddenly his character joins one of his hometown gangs even though the GM's plan for the campaign requires the PCs to leave the city and go somewhere like the North Pole.

James, have you looked at the Guildcraft rules? They might suit your needs.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

My votes:
More Regional Feats,
More local history,
More local flavor (i.e. local customs, unusual local laws, etc)
Random NPCs that have nothing directly to do with the story (so players can write them into their backgrounds), and
Places of Interest (i.e. temples, police head quarters, drug houses, taverns, guild halls, unusual magic shops, etc).


Regional Feats add to the character.

Regional Prestige classes not only gives characters something to aim for if they wish, but also helps the DM with NPC ideas.

Gazetteer type info for the area.

Guidelines for names.

Local Myths and legends.

Architectural styles in the area.

Typical food and drink available (and cost).

Guidelines for creating characters for the campaign so that players do not take redundant choices.

Local arms, armour and equipment.

Scarab Sages

Roger Smith wrote:
Typical food and drink available (and cost).

Seconded


Less art and more crunch with an index by topic and page number in the back.

Don't reprint the Player's Guide material again in subsequent books building upon it is fine not reprinting the same material on top of all the pictures.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

CastleMike wrote:

Less art and more crunch with an index by topic and page number in the back.

Don't reprint the Player's Guide material again in subsequent books building upon it is fine not reprinting the same material on top of all the pictures.

While the suggestion of an index is interesting (if horrifying... the amount of work they require is insane), one thing I can guarantee we won't be doing is having less art. Humans are visual creatures, and art is a GREAT way to provide entertainment and information. It's actually a more efficient way to provide information than writing, I think.

So yeah, the art ain't going nowhere. :)


One of the things that bugged me in 3rd/3.5 is that FR didn't has a consistent look. Purple dragon armor looked different from one supplement to another, generic cityscapes appeared that didn't seem to match the city in question, etc.

One of the things I really like about Pathfinder so far is that Korvosa doesn't look like Riddleport, and if a given military unit has a certain uniform, that's what shows up when a picture has those guys in it. It really helps with the cohesiveness of the setting, and you really can only do that with quality artwork.


I like the art.

I would like to add onto my previous post:

I agree with food/ale types and prices
and lists of names.

My players always have trouble naming characters and usually end up with a mish-mosh of: serious fantasy themed names, funny names, real-world names, and historical figure names all in the same group.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KnightErrantJR wrote:
One of the things that bugged me in 3rd/3.5 is that FR didn't has a consistent look. Purple dragon armor looked different from one supplement to another, generic cityscapes appeared that didn't seem to match the city in question, etc.

Art consistency is very important indeed.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

SirUrza wrote:
Art consistency is very important indeed.

Agreed; it's also a pretty tough thing to enforce. Quite often we'll get in a finished piece of artwork that simply doesn't follow our styles, and we have to decide if we want to run with the artwork anyway or not... and if we don't that's basically wasted money, so we don't want to do that too much. Nonetheless, we HAVE had to kill a fair amount of artwork since it didn't match established looks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Well that's both good and bad to hear.

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