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Sinister Adventures LLC - Nick Logue's New Gaming Company


D&D 3.5/d20/OGL

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Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know reading the OP again it is a bit ironic in a amusing way that Nick posted it on April 1st. In a way it was the best April Fools ever, even if Nick didn't mean for it to be. :)

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yup, 28 or 29 months and counting for me - and I pre-ordered everything on his website!

When Anarchist's went up I laughed. Sorry to hear you sent money in to that, too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ha!

Ha!

Ha!

Biggest

April

Fool's

Joke

EVAR!

Check out this blog post btw...
Did Nick Logue burn people with preorders?

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

So, Lou Porter is being an ass in print. Fine.

There haven't been any developments lately to refute his arguments, would there?


Chris Mortika wrote:
So, Lou Porter is being an ass in print. Fine.

Wow I don't know how to repond to that. My wife will tell you that I was born an ass, so I guess that is a good thing. If you want to personally attack me, please feel free to do it at my blog. The Paizo website is about getting information on Paizo / Pathfinder material or 3PP related material, not to vent about me personally. Thanks!

Quote:
There haven't been any developments lately to refute his arguments, would there?

Second, I am not asking any one to refute the claims. I am asking people what would it take for you to feel burned by a company / person in the RPG industy. For me it was 4E and the GSL from WOTC. What is it for you Mr. Mortika?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Any news, updates?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't think Louis was being a a$$. I think he was expressing a opinion many who preorder RC feels. Frustration.

As for the question what would it take. Well I do feel burned by Sinister. At this point I have written the money off. I do believe eventually the RC will come out and then I will get it. Would it stop me from buying from Nick or Sinister again? Nope, in fact I still plan to buy some of their other stuff if/when it comes out. But it will keep me from preordering from them again. Unless at some point they get a record for delivering products on time for awhile, then I might preorder again.

The best way for a company to burn me for good as a costumer and fan. Is to treat me like a idiot, show a lack of respect for their fans and or ignore what their fans want. That and bad costumer service but that kinda goes hand and hand with those things.

So far Sony Online is the big company that has earned my never buy from again list, though there is another company that I won't name that is getting awfully close to getting added to that list and no it is not Sinister.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Hi, Lou.

Let me apologize for being curt, and for asserting something about you or your overall character that I should have asserted about your post.

What I should have said, in reply to a post that included:

Quote:
"The last time his front page website was updated was October 1, 2009 with this: Announcing the Anarchist Gamemaster Cookbook: Recipes for Games That Don't Suck. [OK here comes Rant & Dig] You know what games really don't suck? Ones that come out. Sorry, Nick, but it is true. [/Rant & Dig]."

...and which ended with the loaded question "What would it take for you to be considiered to be "burned" and have someone ruin their repution with you?" would have beein something like "So Lou Porter is writing snarky, unfair things to his blog. Fine."

If you call me on maligning your character, I cop to that. I could explain what set my triggers, but that's irrelevant; I should have been more specific.

But:

Nick has been up-front that anybody who pre-ordered and wants a refund should get one, straight-away. If anybody's requested a refund but hasn't received one, that would a serious violation of trust, and I'll stop trying to defend Logue. I haven't heard anybody make that claim against him, though. Anyone who is currently waiting for a pre-ordered copy of "Razor Coast", is doing so of his or her own free will.

You were kind enough to note that Lou Agresta and Tim Hitchcock, along with a team of editors and proof-readers, are substantially rewriting, expanding, and revising the product. If it's stalled again, you'd be right to beef about that. But if "Razor Coast" is still moving forward under Lou's direction, your complaint that ".. months later, still no product" seems disingenuous and unfair.

That's what I was asking: is "Razor Coast" becalmed again, or are there currently wind in its sails? Does Lou Porter have a case to make against Agresta and his team, or not.

So:

Let me answer your question.

Quote:
So I thought, is this enough of a mess up to get people to never buy products from Nick Logue again?

No, of course not. "Temple of Elemental Evil" was ten years late, and that didn't stop me from buying products that Gary Gygax had written. Paizo has fallen behind every now and again on Adventure Path chapters, which -- compared to a campaign setting -- is a much more serious issue for people who've already started playing through the storyline, trusting that the next books would be available when they'd reached that point in the plot; that doesn't stop me from purchasing Paizo products that are already on the market. It took two years for Necromancer and Frog God Games to figure out how to release Greg Vaughan's "Slumbering Tsar" series, but I'm a satisfied subscriber now that it's being published.

I guess the question doesn't even make sense to me, Lou. Why would a publication delay influence what I choose to buy, once it eventually becomes available on the market? (Of course, it's the industry's reputation for long delays and shelved projects that keeps me from ever pre-paying for anything that's not available yet.)

Does that make sense, Lou?

In any case, peace and joy to you and your kin.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Let me answer your question.

Here is a question, if this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LMPjr007 wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Let me answer your question.
Here is a question, if this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation?

I can only speak for myself, but the answer would be yes. While i'd never preorder from you again, i'd not blacklist your released products or turn a blind eye to them for purchase.


Personally I think a lot of this stuff happens because fans get unrealistic about game producers. If you think that everything a writer or company does is going to be golden and never come into it skeptical, then you are really only setting yourself up to be disappointed.

==Off-topic==

Louis:
A quick question. I downloaded your OGL 3.5 compatible icon. Am I correct that it can be put on products without any "compatibility agreement"?


pres man wrote:

==Off-topic==

** spoiler omitted **

Yes you are correct.

Cheliax

DitheringFool wrote:

Yup, 28 or 29 months and counting for me - and I pre-ordered everything on his website!

When Anarchist's went up I laughed. Sorry to hear you sent money in to that, too.

Unfortunately demanding a refund at this point will not benefit me considering the dismal exchange rate vs the dollar.


Rathendar wrote:
LMPjr007 wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Let me answer your question.
Here is a question, if this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation?
I can only speak for myself, but the answer would be yes. While i'd never preorder from you again, i'd not blacklist your released products or turn a blind eye to them for purchase.

+1.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

LMPjr007 wrote:
Here is a question, if this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation?

Asked and answered. The question doesn't make sense to me. If you were offering a quality product that I wanted to buy, and it was already on the market, what difference should it make to me whether you made your production schedule or not?

Contrariwise, if someone were to offer a shoddy product, missing important steps in its development process, what difference should it make to me that the publisher pushed it through to the stores on time?

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:

I don't think Louis was being a a$$. I think he was expressing a opinion many who preorder RC feels. Frustration.

As for the question what would it take. Well I do feel burned by Sinister. At this point I have written the money off. I do believe eventually the RC will come out and then I will get it. Would it stop me from buying from Nick or Sinister again? Nope, in fact I still plan to buy some of their other stuff if/when it comes out. But it will keep me from preordering from them again. Unless at some point they get a record for delivering products on time for awhile, then I might preorder again.

The best way for a company to burn me for good as a costumer and fan. Is to treat me like a idiot, show a lack of respect for their fans and or ignore what their fans want. That and bad costumer service but that kinda goes hand and hand with those things.

So far Sony Online is the big company that has earned my never buy from again list, though there is another company that I won't name that is getting awfully close to getting added to that list and no it is not Sinister.

Based on my reading, he was actually writing a fairly self-serving piece kicking Nick when he was down. He is not an unbiased arbiter, he wanted to buy the IP and was turned down. Apart from being very odd timing (I thought we thrashed this out months ago) it does smack of trying to smack a competitor while he is down. Reasonable business but not terrifically attractive. The question "If this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation" probably goes to the heart of the matter, but maybe ot in the way the author thinks.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It might be Aubrey, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. So I can see why someone could see that, i don't think that was his intent.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

An apology: my post rather brought you into it personally and I was really just commenting on LP's blog and comments.

Taldor

I would still buy Nick's stuff but I won't be preordering again :) But I've been kept informed of what has been going on and I know Lou is taking care of it

Taldor

LMPjr007 wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Let me answer your question.
Here is a question, if this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation?

No - You have a reputation for getting into it with other publishers/authors. This and the whole rpgnow business burns up any goodwill you might have had. It might have been a few years ago but it hurt your brand.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
An apology: my post rather brought you into it personally and I was really just commenting on LP's blog and comments.

No worries. I just tend to respond to any post that quotes mine. :)

Andoran

LMPjr007 wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Let me answer your question.
Here is a question, if this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation?

Well, let's hypothetically say the answer is no. I say this hypothetically, because I personally didn't preorder the product.

I have nothing TO forgive, so I am not in a position to JUDGE my willingness to forgive in the situation.

Now, bearing that in mind, here's the REAL question that you, Mr. Porter, need to be asking yourself:
assuming the answer "IS" hypothetically no, WHY is this answer "no", and what do I, Louis Porter, personally need to do or not do to transform this particular situation to a more positive one for myself and for everyone involved?


I have two things on pre-order with Nick although I may not pre-order anything else if this keeps up.

Cheliax

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


Based on my reading, he was actually writing a fairly self-serving piece kicking Nick when he was down.

At this juncture of RC, Nick deserves the kick while he was down, and several more besides. His handling of the matter has been dismal at BEST. Criminal comes to mind sounding about right.

Selfserving it may have been, but factually its been dead on.

Preordered ages ago. Actually expected the anarchist book, first in april, but then was told summer. Summer came and went....and well you know the rest.

After I get what I've ordered I cant say I'll buy again or not.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have two products on preorder from Nick through Sinister. I am reasonably confident I should at least see Razor Coast by year's end now that it is in the capable hands of Lou Argesta.

Do I forgive Nick? Yes. Will I preorder anything from him again? Sadly, no. But I would entertain the idea of buying his stuff if it was already on the market. Do I feel 'burned'? Not really. Nick has offered to give the preorderers their money back. I am comfortable with that, and I am willing to stick out the wait. I understand that sometimes artists get caught in situations they dislike/can't handle. George RR Martin is going through this with the next Song of Ice and Fire novel. While the situations are not exactly similar, I have counseled patience on both fan fronts. Good things come to those who wait.

I believe that Nick will honor his commitments, and I do hope that he will remain an active RPG writer. I think we would be a lot poorer for his retirement from our hobby.

LMPjr007 wrote:
Here is a question, if this had been LPJ Design who had done this instead of Sinister Adventures and Nick Logue would you be as will to be this forgiving of the whole situation?

Absolutely. Sometimes bad things happen to good artists. I would think that someone in the business would realize that. Nick isn't a rockstar or a god-he's a drama teacher in England. I like his RPG work. I like yours as well Louis. I would hope that if I preordered something of yours and for some reason Real Life dictated you couldn't make your publishing schedules that I would extend you every courtesy and forgiving thought that I have extended Nick.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
carmachu wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


Based on my reading, he was actually writing a fairly self-serving piece kicking Nick when he was down.

At this juncture of RC, Nick deserves the kick while he was down, and several more besides. His handling of the matter has been dismal at BEST. Criminal comes to mind sounding about right.

Selfserving it may have been, but factually its been dead on.

Preordered ages ago. Actually expected the anarchist book, first in april, but then was told summer. Summer came and went....and well you know the rest.

After I get what I've ordered I cant say I'll buy again or not.

If you read some of the more informed comments to the blog entry, actually it wasn't very spot on in respect of the financial aspects. I haven't pre-odered and I know that those who have are frustrated. That said, I think we established quite a while ago that Nick is a rubbish businessman, but he is an inspired writer and games designer. We'll have to wait and see what we get (if and when we get it, but I don't think there is much of an "if" anymore given the attention from the Werecabbages). I think we can have a reasonable degree of faith that Razor Coast will be f@@$ing brilliant, and then we can decide what else we are going to get once we have seen the initial product.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Patrick Curtin wrote:
I have two products on preorder from Nick through Sinister. I am reasonably confident I should at least see Razor Coast by year's end now that it is in the capable hands of Lou Agresta.

My apologies Lou, for spelling your last name wrong. I blame my typing dyslexia >.<


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Things I know about this:

1. Lou and team is making progress on Razor Coast, last update was that pretty much everything except the ship rules is final and done and edited and proofed. They're not lying; I'm one of the proofers. Of course once the manuscript is done at some point it has to go back to Nick to actually get printed and come out, and that might be a wrinkle.
2. The Sinister site has been completely abandoned by Nick; spambots have found it and the forums are basically unusable and no one's doing anything about it, the last message from Nick was long long ago. They were always far between but basically he's disappeared.
3. No one has said anything that I recall that indicates that the Anarchist's Gamemaster Handbook is at all written or in any state other than fancy.
4. They've offered to refund anyone who's unhappy about preordering RC etc. I'm sticking in there on RC, but was not foolish enough to preorder anything post that.
5. Nick's said something to the effect of he's giving up RPG writing after this. So whether he's burned or not is probably not relevant.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ernest Mueller wrote:
3. No one has said anything that I recall that indicates that the Anarchist's Gamemaster Handbook is at all written or in any state other than fancy.

Just out of curiousity, were refunds offered for the Anarchist Gamemaster Handbook?

Taldor

I really hope the time the good people Nick hired to clean this mess will have worked for something, and that an awesome product will soon launch and storm the high seas.

I am very disappointed by the turn of events, as the ads for the several products I pre-ordered were really hitting the target, and I really wished that the whole could be published.

However, right now, I'd settle for just RC.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wicht wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
3. No one has said anything that I recall that indicates that the Anarchist's Gamemaster Handbook is at all written or in any state other than fancy.
Just out of curiousity, were refunds offered for the Anarchist Gamemaster Handbook?

Far as I know it was a offer for all preorders for all products.

Cheliax

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


If you read some of the more informed comments to the blog entry, actually it wasn't very spot on in respect of the financial aspects. I haven't pre-odered and I know that those who have are frustrated. That said, I think we established quite a while ago that Nick is a rubbish businessman, but he is an inspired writer and games designer. We'll have to wait and see what we get (if and when we get it, but I don't think there is much of an "if" anymore given the attention from the Werecabbages). I think we can have a reasonable degree of faith that Razor Coast will be f!*~ing brilliant, and then we can decide what else we are going to get once we have seen the initial product.

Oh you mean the cheerleaders for Nick? Yeah I read them, and some of them were just about as informed as the OP was on finacials.

Doesnt matter how "professional" the designs and lay out are as Hitchcock was saying, when you cant ACT LIKE a professional in dealing with the public, it doesnt matter what parts of the product are done professionally.

BAsic business 101: Even if things go sound, and you have no new information, you simply come out saying "nothing changed yet, but I havent forgotten you guys". People like to be informed, EVEN IF there isnt anything new.

Its clear that Nick doesnt give much of a crap. You can see it clearly,espically since the forums were overrunn by spam. Doesnt matter how awesome RC is by this point, its clear in his treatment of customers and fans he doesnt give a crap.

Cheliax

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Wicht wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
3. No one has said anything that I recall that indicates that the Anarchist's Gamemaster Handbook is at all written or in any state other than fancy.
Just out of curiousity, were refunds offered for the Anarchist Gamemaster Handbook?
Far as I know it was a offer for all preorders for all products.

So how does one get refunds for the other preorders? Because I barely have faith RC is coming out, let alone the other items.


carmachu wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


If you read some of the more informed comments to the blog entry, actually it wasn't very spot on in respect of the financial aspects. I haven't pre-odered and I know that those who have are frustrated. That said, I think we established quite a while ago that Nick is a rubbish businessman, but he is an inspired writer and games designer. We'll have to wait and see what we get (if and when we get it, but I don't think there is much of an "if" anymore given the attention from the Werecabbages). I think we can have a reasonable degree of faith that Razor Coast will be f!*~ing brilliant, and then we can decide what else we are going to get once we have seen the initial product.

Oh you mean the cheerleaders for Nick? Yeah I read them, and some of them were just about as informed as the OP was on finacials.

Doesnt matter how "professional" the designs and lay out are as Hitchcock was saying, when you cant ACT LIKE a professional in dealing with the public, it doesnt matter what parts of the product are done professionally.

BAsic business 101: Even if things go sound, and you have no new information, you simply come out saying "nothing changed yet, but I havent forgotten you guys". People like to be informed, EVEN IF there isnt anything new.

Its clear that Nick doesnt give much of a crap. You can see it clearly,espically since the forums were overrunn by spam. Doesnt matter how awesome RC is by this point, its clear in his treatment of customers and fans he doesnt give a crap.

I've watched this thread for awhile, and can understand all the varying viewpoints, but to say he doesn't give a crap is, well, crap. You don't know that. I don't know Nick Logue, but I feel for him. He got in over his head and found out that hard way that there is a big difference between being a freelance writer and running a business. It would appear he's trying to do the right thing and has learned a lesson. One of those lessons should be that people will jump to conclusions and speculate on what he feels & thinks without having any evidence to support their thinking.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
carmachu wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Wicht wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
3. No one has said anything that I recall that indicates that the Anarchist's Gamemaster Handbook is at all written or in any state other than fancy.
Just out of curiousity, were refunds offered for the Anarchist Gamemaster Handbook?
Far as I know it was a offer for all preorders for all products.
So how does one get refunds for the other preorders? Because I barely have faith RC is coming out, let alone the other items.

It was posted that you had to email to Nick. It was posted on the forum over there what email.

Cheliax

Billzabub wrote:


I've watched this thread for awhile, and can understand all the varying viewpoints, but to say he doesn't give a crap is, well, crap. You don't know that. I don't know Nick Logue, but I feel for him. He got in over his head and found out that hard way that there is a big difference between being a freelance writer and running a business. It would appear he's trying to do the right thing and has learned a lesson. One of those lessons should be that...

I can say with realitive certainty, haveing forked in retail business for 25 years, and having owned one for the last couple, his silence and inactions say alot, adn are louder then anything else to date.

Hasnt spoken on his own boards in ages? Hasnt truned the keys to the boards to someone and let spam bots infest? couple posters up a proof reader worries about handing it over to him to get it printed as the biggest hurdle?

It is NOT crap. I speak from business experience. Silence is the worst thing you can do outside outright cheating/stealing your customer base, It says alot when you cant come out and update yourself, even if you have nothing new to share. It shows that your active, and your still have your customers still in mind. Inaction or sleince speaks quite loudly.

But let me turn this around at the moment. Show me. Show me he cares about the product at the moment. Show me what he's doing to keep things goin or to instill confidence.

You cant,a nd it shows.

Cheliax

Dark_Mistress wrote:
carmachu wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Wicht wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
3. No one has said anything that I recall that indicates that the Anarchist's Gamemaster Handbook is at all written or in any state other than fancy.
Just out of curiousity, were refunds offered for the Anarchist Gamemaster Handbook?
Far as I know it was a offer for all preorders for all products.
So how does one get refunds for the other preorders? Because I barely have faith RC is coming out, let alone the other items.
It was posted that you had to email to Nick. It was posted on the forum over there what email.

Thanks. I'll have to wade through the spam and see.

Taldor Contributor

Patrick Curtin wrote:
Patrick Curtin wrote:
I have two products on preorder from Nick through Sinister. I am reasonably confident I should at least see Razor Coast by year's end now that it is in the capable hands of Lou Agresta.
My apologies Lou, for spelling your last name wrong. I blame my typing dyslexia >.<

No worries man! You're not spelling it "d-o-u-c-h-e" and that makes me happy. :)

Taldor Contributor

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Wicht wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
3. No one has said anything that I recall that indicates that the Anarchist's Gamemaster Handbook is at all written or in any state other than fancy.
Just out of curiousity, were refunds offered for the Anarchist Gamemaster Handbook?
Far as I know it was a offer for all preorders for all products.

Dark Mistress is correct. Just email Nick at nflogue@hotmail.com, put [SINISTER REFUND REQUEST] in the subject heading. He may take a bit to get back to you, but he'll return your money.


I'm waiting on Razor Coast (Pathfinder preferred) and the Anarchist GM book. After that, we will see what comes up. He has a something in an arctic theme or am I wrong? That one I will wait and see how close it comes to fruition till I consider pre ordering.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
carmachu wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


If you read some of the more informed comments to the blog entry, actually it wasn't very spot on in respect of the financial aspects. I haven't pre-odered and I know that those who have are frustrated. That said, I think we established quite a while ago that Nick is a rubbish businessman, but he is an inspired writer and games designer. We'll have to wait and see what we get (if and when we get it, but I don't think there is much of an "if" anymore given the attention from the Werecabbages). I think we can have a reasonable degree of faith that Razor Coast will be f!*~ing brilliant, and then we can decide what else we are going to get once we have seen the initial product.
Oh you mean the cheerleaders for Nick? Yeah I read them, and some of them were just about as informed as the OP was on finacials.

No, I meant Tim Hitchcock who is actually helping with RC.

I think I already pointed out that Nick clearly has no business sense, so labouring the point doesn't necessarily get us anywhere, and the refund details are posted up.

Grand Lodge

FenrysStar wrote:
I'm waiting on Razor Coast (Pathfinder preferred) and the Anarchist GM book. After that, we will see what comes up. He has a something in an arctic theme or am I wrong?

Next projects, not in a particular order as far as I can recall, were to be Dark Vistas: Ebon Shroud (northern vampire setting), and Cold Black/Known Universe Gazetteer (SF horror adventure and setting).

Nic allegedly had some Indulgences (short PDFs) for the latter written and just waiting on art, so I'm hoping if anything after Razor Coast actually comes out, those have a good chance.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The latest update by Lou over at Sin.

Hey all,

I'm posting this from the Philadelphia airport, on my way back from Neoncon. Great little con, by the way, and growing fast, fast, fast. Vegas is a wild and weird place to be, very surreal, and very fun for a few day con get away.

'Nuff of that. Here's the update.

1. Bad News: While at Neoncon I have not been moving the project forward.
2. Good News: I'm back from Neoncon tonight.
3. Bad News: I'm wrapped up on another project for
Gaming Paper that I'm writing with Rone Barton. We are on deadline until later this month. This project involves a 7x9' (I think that's the size) map done by Chris West. Other writers on the project include Monte Cook (or so the rumors say).

Good News: We really are almost there. The entire core Razor Coast manuscript has been written, developed, edited, developed, proofed, proofed again and...almost.. developed. After which comes layout.

I say almost developed that last time because the 2nd half of the last chapter, chapter 5, sits on my desktop awaiting a last pass. I have to consider Proofer #2s input and corrections, incorporate or reject, refine some language, etc. That will take me about 4 hours. Then the manuscript is done.

Bad News: I still won't let you have it. *ducks as broken bottles and glass fling at cage to the tune of "Raw Hide"*

I won't for 2 reasons:
1. the ship-to-ship combat expansion, Fire-as-She Bears is currently still in the hands of James McKenzie, who was also at Neoncon.
2. John Ling Jr aka the LING9000 is currently Pathfinderizing the entire manuscript.

Based on feedback to my questions here, I've decided how I plan to proceed:

1. I plan to hand Nick the final 3.5 and Pathfinder layout-ready versions of the manuscript at the same time.

2. I've written an indulgence on personal firearms that is also being pathfinderized. I've asked Nick to include it for y'all for free. It's called Brace of Pistols. I saw the cover Nick bought not too long ago, and I like it.

3. If the pathfinderization of the full manuscript plus the indulgence is complete before the FaSB subsystem, I'm turning the manuscript over to Nick. Done. Nick will have to put FaSB out in a separate piece. If FaSB comes in round about the same time as the pathfinderization, I'll hand it all to him in one go.

I still can't and won't give you a projected publication date. This is for three reasons:

1. I'm not responsible for layout or printing. I'm just the hired editor/developer/proofreader/additional designer. And really I'm not doing this for the money. If you divide what I got paid by the hours I put in, its less than a penny per hour. For real. And that's fine by me. This is a labor of love and an act of friendship. I took a few dollars from Nick because, as a professional, that's what we should do to keep our work valued.

2. I can't force the other writers to work to a schedule. The other writers, developers, proofers, etc. are in the same boat. Except some of them aren't getting paid AT ALL, including the professionals. Because its a labor of love. As a result, I really can't say, "Hurry up damn you!" and put your other paying work from Paizo, WoTC, SGG, 0onegames, Frog God, etc. aside. Wish I could but...well that'd be wrong. So I can't control when the the Pathfinderization will be done -- except to say Ling is no slouch and he's cranking away. Oh, and that I'll keep you all posted as pieces come in.

3. I'm not willing to take the risk. You've all been extremely patient and yet disappointed far far too much. I for one have no desire to contribute to that disappointment by establishing false expectations. So I won't set any. I'll just tell you where I'm at when I'm at it.

Summary: I can't promise about things outside my control, and I don't want to disappoint you wonderful, supportive customers again.

I'd also like to reiterate Nick's offer: if anyone wants a refund on any preorder please email Nick at nflogue@hotmail.com I'd advise putting [SINISTER REFUND REQUEST] in the subject heading. It may take him a while, but I'm confident he will respond and give you your money back (as he has for others).

If anyone has any questions about any of this, please feel free to post one. I'll respond as swiftly as I may.

Last but not least, I'd like to tack in something utterly irrelevant to RC, any Sinister product, or any disappointed Sinister Customer. It's just a little link that shares why so many of us are so willing to help out on Sinister for nothing or next to nothing. Indeed why some of us are risking our reputations -- me for instance, given some of what I've seen posted around lately (not here) -- even, to help out. You might feel like looking, you might not. But Nick is the only human I know where someone started a facebook group titled like this: Nick Logue Changed My Life Certainly no one I know named Louis has such a group.


This is what kind of bewilders me on these things.

[quote=]3. Bad News: I'm wrapped up on another project for
Gaming Paper that I'm writing with Rone Barton. We are on deadline until later this month.

]I still can't and won't give you a projected publication date.[/quote wrote:

I think that is the biggest problem with this type of endeavor. That it can keep getting pushed to the back burner for more "immediate" projects. I would think that given how long it has been going, that this project should be in the front. I think this type of thought "We can do it when we have done everything else and start to feel like it." Is where some of the frustration comes from.

So to Porter's question above. If I preorder a product and learned that he kept pushing that project back in order to do other projects, it would definitely sour my view of that person.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

Except, of course, if you aren't getting paid (much or at all) maybe we should be grateful anything is happening at all. And it isn't Nick pushing it back, it's the other writers who have, well, probably day jobs and additional writing commitments that are paying.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Keep in mind this isn't Lou's project. He is doing this to help out. So if he has personal projects that demand some of his time I won't complain. I am just glad he is helping. Nick has said with his new job he flat doesn't have the time, which is why he brought on Lou and others at such a late point to help out.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Nick has said with his new job he flat doesn't have the time,...

I don't have a dog in this race and I've been trying to refrain from commenting too much as there are some very deeply held opinions on both sides and though I find the whole thing of interest, it more of an academic and professional interest. But there really is no excuse, as a professional, for the above quote. If you've taken money for a job you make the time to finish the job. Period. Even if you are a little late, you work until it is done. Giving a refund is only acceptable if people want a refund. What you owe people is doing what you agreed to do and it is perfectly reasonable for people to refuse a refund and demand the product. Even if you find a better paying job that demands more of your time, you still have a professional and personal obligation to finish the first thing you were paid for. I understand getting overcommitted. Its a fact of life and it happens to everybody at one point or another. But you do what you have to do and you don't quit. Especially if you've already been paid.


carmachu wrote:
Billzabub wrote:


I've watched this thread for awhile, and can understand all the varying viewpoints, but to say he doesn't give a crap is, well, crap. You don't know that. I don't know Nick Logue, but I feel for him. He got in over his head and found out that hard way that there is a big difference between being a freelance writer and running a business. It would appear he's trying to do the right thing and has learned a lesson. One of those lessons should be that...

I can say with realitive certainty, haveing forked in retail business for 25 years, and having owned one for the last couple, his silence and inactions say alot, adn are louder then anything else to date.

Hasnt spoken on his own boards in ages? Hasnt truned the keys to the boards to someone and let spam bots infest? couple posters up a proof reader worries about handing it over to him to get it printed as the biggest hurdle?

It is NOT crap. I speak from business experience. Silence is the worst thing you can do outside outright cheating/stealing your customer base, It says alot when you cant come out and update yourself, even if you have nothing new to share. It shows that your active, and your still have your customers still in mind. Inaction or sleince speaks quite loudly.

But let me turn this around at the moment. Show me. Show me he cares about the product at the moment. Show me what he's doing to keep things goin or to instill confidence.

You cant,a nd it shows.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Again, I don't know Mr. Logue, and quite frankly, no one posting here, with the exception of one or two people, know him either. He's had problems getting a product out and keeping people reasonably informed, but few people here, if any, know what he has going on in his life or what else is on his plate. Regardless, being bad a running a business does not equate to not caring. If he didn't care, he could have simply just refunded everybody and said, "Sorry folks, it's not going to happen, here's your money." He didn't do that. Instead, he's brought others in to help him get it finished. That, to me, doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care (yeah, a double negative, I know.)

Before this gets beaten to death and drawn out, I'd like to point out that I'm not taking contention with anything other than the idea that Nick Logue doesn't give a s*+$. The answer to should he get it done, should he have handled things differently, does he have a sick and twisted mind, etc., are all largely agree upon by most everyone here. I just take issue with the idea that the guy doesn't care.

Osirion

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Maps Subscriber

I don't think it should be too difficult to keep people informed. He has a website for the whole thing. I checked it a month or so ago and there have been no changes to it since it was a new site and a new company. No real information on what is going on or if things are moving forward. This is the first I have heard anything in over a year. And I bought everything when it was announced. Hopefully, these projects will get done and I will receive them but I am certainly not excited about this work anymore.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wicth I imagine thats why he got Lou and others to help. He knew he could no longer do it, due to RL. Yet knew he owed it to people. I mean the writing was almost all done. It was everything else that really anyone could do that has been the problem. So the fact that Nick is not handling that part doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Now if Nick had let someone else do all the writing then I might agree that would be a problem. Since people that bought it, paid for a product from Nick's own hand, so to speak. Which we will still get, just others will edit, stat block, layout etc it instead.

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