"Born out of violence" half-elves and half-orcs pg 6


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The "born out of violence" line for half-elves and the similar phrase for half-orcs is a step up from the 3rd edition rules where it was apparently felt necessary to suggest that all half-orcs were born of rape. But it isn't necessary and including sexual assault into the game doesn't add anything, so why do it?

I realize that some people feel it is almost a requirement and there are at least a dozen folks who are about to type "oh yeah, well the game has murder doesn't it?" Which somehow implies that without those sentences the game will break verisimilitude or be far too happy and huggie-bear. For these gamers I suggest using the space you save with the cut and use it to draw in skulls or something.

The only birth histories that we typically care about in these games is the PCs and a few major NPCs. That's it. If you get right down to it a hafling could be born of sexual assault. The overwhelming amount of time it just doesn't come up. How many encounters run like this:

The PCs walk down an alley to meet their contact, suddenly a half-orc assassin jumps out!

PCs: You're no match for us, you murdering half-orc bastard!

1/2 Orc: ... that's ... that true ... I never knew my dad. Oh woe! Where is he now, that man who left me so alone? Would I ever have joined the Loathsome Death Guild if I had known the gentle wisdom of a loving father? And poor Mom! Would it have been so hard to look past my face and see not a reminder of that tragic night, but instead a young boy in need of a mother's embrace? *sob* *sob* *sob*

It isn't needed. Its stupid to add it in. Just cut it.

If people complain just point out that we already have two pictures (pg 36 and 40) of a surprised woman with her back arched, legs apart, and mouth open. Neither of them are wearing all that much either. Isn't that enough?


I like the line it adds flavor .why dance around the cold hard facts right.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Because they're not cold, hard facts.

As the OP noted, any character could be born from a pregnancy which was the result of rape. Dwarves rape dwarves and beget dwarves.

And an inter-species mating isn't necessarily the result of violence.

If anything, it's a stereotype. And Pathfinder's the game with a tea-drinking, caves-shunning dwarf ranger; stereotypes discouraged here.


Tragicly I am a bit of a fence sitter on this.
Yes lets not skirt around it but we do want this game to be able to be played young people whoms parents may be conserned about such things.

but this has already been done else where my thoughts I agree with post eleven
No Rape, Legitimate Half-Orcs


Well for the world yes it is a cold hard fact.

ROTRL Playere guide.Half orcs p.5
The warlike clans long ago discovered that breeding with humans
produced whelps of greater cunning and discipline and have since
preyed upon Varisia’s native peoples to provide such brutal unions.

The only setting I know of where Half orcs are common and have there own community's is eberron where this in not the case. 90% of half orcs are children of rape that simple.is it pretty no is it a fact of this world yeah it is.

Liberty's Edge

Your post is rude and presumptuous, Twice you insult anyone who disagrees with you.

BiggusGeekus wrote:
I realize that some people feel it is almost a requirement and there are at least a dozen folks who are about to type "oh yeah, well the game has murder doesn't it?" Which somehow implies that without those sentences the game will break verisimilitude or be far too happy and huggie-bear. For these gamers I suggest using the space you save with the cut and use it to draw in skulls or something.
BiggusGeekus wrote:
If people complain just point out that we already have two pictures (pg 36 and 40) of a surprised woman with her back arched, legs apart, and mouth open. Neither of them are wearing all that much either. Isn't that enough?

Is this the only way you can get your point across?

Further you assume in what manner people will react to your post.

BiggusGeekus wrote:
...and there are at least a dozen folks who are about to type "oh yeah, well the game has murder doesn't it?"

Are you all-seeing or all-knowing? Do you know me?

No!
Don't presume to tell me how I will react to your post.

As to this point regarding birth histories that matter, gee what if the PC is playing a half orc might this fact matter to him for his character's history

BiggusGeekus wrote:

The only birth histories that we typically care about in these games is the PCs and a few major NPCs. That's it. If you get right down to it a hafling could be born of sexual assault. The overwhelming amount of time it just doesn't come up. How many encounters run like this:

The PCs walk down an alley to meet their contact, suddenly a half-orc assassin jumps out!

PCs: You're no match for us, you murdering half-orc bastard!

1/2 Orc: ... that's ... that true ... I never knew my dad. Oh woe! Where is he now, that man who left me so alone? Would I ever have joined the Loathsome Death Guild if I had known the gentle wisdom of a loving father? And poor Mom! Would it have been so hard to look past my face and see not a reminder of that tragic night, but instead a young boy in need of a mother's embrace? *sob* *sob* *sob*

It isn't needed. Its stupid to add it in. Just cut it.

Whether or not, your games make use of this fact, other games may and likely do. Why should your style recieve preference? If you don't like it then ignore it. Removing it wouldn't even be noticed in printing cost, so therefore the only reasonIsee for removing it isthat some people may be offended by its presence

In final answer to what I see as the sum of your post

BiggusGeekus wrote:
The overwhelming amount of time it just doesn't come up.

Height, Weight, Hair Color, Eye Color, and Skin Tone all fall under that same statement. Should all references to these be removed as well? Heck, while we're at it, lets eliminate that section on clothes in the equipment chapter, how often do your adventurers clothes matter in game.

Honestly leave the flavor there for those of us who enjoy it, if you don't then ignore it, and quit insulting people it only makes you look small to others.

Graywulfe


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I like the line it adds flavor .why dance around the cold hard facts right.

Its a cold hard fact that people in this game world would get syphilis. Its a cold hard fact that children would be born with birth defects (unless paizo is also adding an ultrasound cantrip or something). Its a cold hard fact that people would get broken bones or die of starvation and I don't even think that's possible in 3.5. Suddenly in a couple of paragraphs on character origin we're paying attention to cold hard facts?

Caladors wrote:


but this has already been done else where my thoughts I agree with post eleven
No Rape, Legitimate Half-Orcs

Hey! Nice link!

seekerofshadowlight wrote:


ROTRL Playere guide.Half orcs p.5
The warlike clans long ago discovered that breeding with humans
produced whelps of greater cunning and discipline and have since
preyed upon Varisia’s native peoples to provide such brutal unions.

I hadn't gotten to that yet. Thanks for pointing it out.

However, I'll just take up the crazy notion that line could also be cut, replaced, or ignored. The line they use for half elves "born under extraordinary circumstances" seems to work just fine.

I flipped open The Curse of the Crimson Throne and on page 9 I find the line "the battles grow exceedingly personal resulting in the occasional half orc". In the meantime, on the same page human chicks are apparently swinging by Mierani enclave on Saturday nights. For some reason something similar is beyond imagining between humans and orcs? Guys, don't lie. At 1am after a couple of beers, yeah, you'd hit it.

But if we must focus on the Belkzen, did something happen to diplomatic marriages when I wasn't looking? Hey, if orcs are breeding for cunning, wouldn't it make sense to offer to spare a village plunder in exchange for a man or woman? Its the exact same plan, only a lot more sure to succeed because you don't have to think around the intended mother-to-be getting the fantasy equivalent of a D&C ... which is yet another cold hard fact of life apparently beyond consideration.

Frankly, I think the idea of diplomatic marriages adds a lot more to the setting and you still get your half orcs.


Well man I myself love they way eberron done it but there orc/human war thing isnt an issue.I just think the line needs to stay its not huge but brings a very real feel to the world it brings the orc/human thing to the very front and says just why there so common. Now not every half orc is a child of rape but most are .well most half elves are not but some may be and are I would say had a player play one once.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

*claps* An excellent April Fool's post! Look at the people you've already lured in!


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Well man I myself love they way eberron done it but there orc/human war thing isnt an issue.I just think the line needs to stay its not huge but brings a very real feel to the world it brings the orc/human thing to the very front and says just why there so common. Now not every half orc is a child of rape but most are .well most half elves are not but some may be and are I would say had a player play one once.

I think this is a problem better solved by addition, not subtraction. Keep the born of violence sentiment, but add in a "But rarely..." clause. It keeps the requested flavor of the half orcs, but gives an example of one without sexual assault in the history.


graywulfe wrote:
Your post is rude and presumptuous, Twice you insult anyone who disagrees with you.

I'd apologize for writing something you objected to ...

graywulfe wrote:
If you don't like it then ignore it.

... except that you seem pretty cool with ignoring stuff you don't like.

graywulfe wrote:

Further you assume in what manner people will react to your post.

BiggusGeekus wrote:
...and there are at least a dozen folks who are about to type "oh yeah, well the game has murder doesn't it?"

Are you all-seeing or all-knowing? Do you know me?

No!
Don't presume to tell me how I will react to your post.
graywulfe wrote:
Honestly leave the flavor there for those of us who enjoy it

Actually, greywulfe it seems like I pretty accurately guessed how some folks would react. Yourself, for instance.

graywulfe wrote:
Height, Weight, Hair Color, Eye Color, and Skin Tone all fall under that same statement. Should all references to these be removed as well? Heck, while we're at it, lets eliminate that section on clothes in the equipment chapter, how often do your adventurers clothes matter in game.

If they mandate a specific starting Height, Weight, Hair Color, Eye Color, Skin Tone, and clothing choice, then I'll disagree with that as well. And if it is mandatory to roll for height and weight then I do happen to disagree with it. As it is, it looks like the player gets to choose these things and I think that's a good idea.


Matthew Morris wrote:
*claps* An excellent April Fool's post!

No joke.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Hi, greywulve. It's nice to have your perspective here.

BiggusGeekus wrote:
...and there are at least a dozen folks who are about to type "oh yeah, well the game has murder doesn't it?"
graywulfe wrote:

Are you all-seeing or all-knowing? Do you know me?

No!
Don't presume to tell me how I will react to your post.

I don't think he was. He said that a half-dozen people would say "X". That's not the same as claiming that you'd say "X".

I'm more or less a disinterested party here. But it looks to me like you're trying to pick a fight.

graywulve wrote:
As to this point regarding [which] birth histories matter, gee, what if the [player] is playing a half-orc? Might this fact matter to him for his character's history?

Sure, and BG said as much.

Personally, I think that the written claim that half-orcs are presumed to be from any particular background is limiting. The game doesn't break if we don't make that presumption, and players would feel freer to explore other half-orc backgrounds.

There's an alternative, which the Paizo people might have explored in the Classic Monsters Revisited book.

It might be --as hobgoblins are the militaristic monstrous humanoids, and gnolls are the psychotic monstrous humanoids-- that orcs are the nymphomaniac monstrous humanoids. Hobgoblins press you into service for their empire; gnolls eat you alive after feeding you a diet of cochineal beetles and troll milk for two weeks; orcs just rape you to death.

Then the "half-orcs are the product of rape" presumption would make sense.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Hey there all.

First off, lets tone down the nature of this thread. No need to argue, we are all on the same side here. As for the language, I have been thinking about toning it down a bit, if for no other reason that to make sure that there are a wide variety of options open to half-elf and half-orc characters.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
First off, lets tone down the nature of this thread. No need to argue, we are all on the same side here.

Mea culpa. Apologies specifically directed to graywulfe, because I did get punchy with him.

And thank you for considering alternatives, Jason. Whether or not they are followed through.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all.

First off, lets tone down the nature of this thread. No need to argue, we are all on the same side here. As for the language, I have been thinking about toning it down a bit, if for no other reason that to make sure that there are a wide variety of options open to half-elf and half-orc characters.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I would say that the language should be touched down a bit for half-elves, as human/elf unions are more often with consent than without. Statements about upbringing might be there (*cough*Tanis*cough*), but the brutality of conception is more of an issue for orcs.


BG, your argument would hold a lot more water if you hadn't completely ignored those parts of the racial description which doesn't lend itself to your argument.
Right after the your "offending" quote we find this sentence: "...some come from loving couples who tend their offspring in a manner best suited to their lifestyle."
Besides, neither descriptions claim that ALL half-elves or half-orcs come from sexual assault.
And the fact that some half-orcs are products of sexual assault actually does add something to the game, it's an instant background hook, which can be utilized in a lot of interesting ways.
I don't think anyone are blaze about rape because of this, I actually think it makes people carefully consider the ramifications of it. And if you're concerned about someone taking offence to the notion, I just have to say that hiding such facts of life doesn't make them go away.

I'm also concerned that you then in another post suggest that "diplomatic marriages" are a much better solution... erm, hello? So because one's elders have given one away it's no longer rape when the brutal orc chieftain forces himself on you?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ok, any idea how to change it?

"In some barbarian tribes, raids are common. Prisoners are taken, often as slaves. Some rare individuals actually become full members of their adoptive tribes. As a result, the occasional half orc is born of a human or orc parent."

"Occasionally peaceful interaction exists between humans and orcs. An orc warrior may defend a town from monsters and be seen as a member of the town. A trader may sell grain to orcs in a tough winter, and he is accepted as a member of the tribe. Such peaceful assimilation may result in a half orc."

*Edit* I still think it's an april fool's joke.


Matthew Morris wrote:
*Edit* I still think it's an april fool's joke.

I'm fairly certain you're right, however I need to look back again to see if the language about half-Elves is just as strong. If it is, then I do think it should be toned down.

I do call to mind one game where I was playing a Paka ranger (Evil race of cat-people from Ravenloft, noted for being active in the interests of other monstrous species) when he met a half-Orc and took great pity on him for being the product of the "shame and dishonor inflicted on Orcs by Humans". The half-Orc was very confused.

Scarab Sages

Pneumonica wrote:
I would say that the language should be touched down a bit for half-elves, as human/elf unions are more often with consent than without. Statements about upbringing might be there (*cough*Tanis*cough*), but the brutality of conception is more of an issue for orcs.

I agree. There is a strong in-game president for orcs being a raider race, attacking human settlements, taking slaves and forced consorts. I don't think that you necessarily need to say they are most always the result of rape, but I think it's somewhat implicit based on the two races in question. Yes, of course there can be exceptions, but the are exceptions to general trends ("Can you believe that Sir Tristan drunk that love potion and made it with that orc wench?" "Well, his son does have a bit of a pig nose..."), but those would be much rarer cases.

I think there is some president with this in human/half-elf interactions (particularly with humans as the aggressor race) as well, but not nearly as prevalent.

(BTW, I love Half-orcs!)


Gavgoyle wrote:
(BTW, I love Half-orcs!)

Half-orcs are fun. The Dragonlance half-Ogres were a blast. One of my faves is the Thri-Kreen (love your img, btw - =-D ).


Pneumonica wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
*Edit* I still think it's an april fool's joke.

I'm fairly certain you're right, however I need to look back again to see if the language about half-Elves is just as strong. If it is, then I do think it should be toned down.

I do call to mind one game where I was playing a Paka ranger (Evil race of cat-people from Ravenloft, noted for being active in the interests of other monstrous species) when he met a half-Orc and took great pity on him for being the product of the "shame and dishonor inflicted on Orcs by Humans". The half-Orc was very confused.

Half elves:

While many
are born out of violence, some come from loving couples
who tend their offspring in a manner best suited to their
lifestyle.

Half Orcs:
Half-orcs are not a new phenomenon:
in the days when orcs and humans clashed endlessly,
many who found themselves caught in-between were
the subjects of terrible violence, with half-orcs as the
byproduct. Most half-orcs today share this dark history.

It only annoys me because half-elves are the nice cross-race. Nobody ever really thought of humans and elves mating being naughty, because both parties are traditionally nice and pretty. Half-orcs, on the other hand, get the "terrible violence" bit and that's it. Their generic origin is "Your mother was raped and you came about." Hell, even with this section of Pathfinder, half-elves get the loving couples treatment while all half orcs get is the terrible violence bit.

I guess I'll put it another way...would it turn anybody off if they line I quoted from the half elves entry was changed to "Most half elves are the offspring of terrible violence the elves committed against the human people"?

This isn't an April Fool's joke for me. This is a chance to voice that I'd like another option presented in the text. I don't even need anything removed. I just want another option laid out.

Spoiler:
A bit of backstory. I currently game with my best friend and pastor DMing, and a 14 year old girl and her father as fellow players. The young girl was witness to a sexual assault on her best friend a few years ago, and still isn't completely over it. How the hell am I supposed to give her the "Half-orcs are pretty much always the byproduct of rape" speech? It's the main reason I glossed over them when she made her character. I can deal with strong language, but I'd like an alternate option in the text so I can at least BS my way around the subject until her issues get worked out.


GentleGiant wrote:
Right after the your "offending" quote we find this sentence: "...some come from loving couples who tend their offspring in a manner best suited to their lifestyle."

The same could be said for humans, gnomes, dwarves, etc. though. Yes, as written, half elves are granted some flexibility, but its really just taking the sting out of the prior phrase. The other races don't seem to need birth origin referenced, so why are we including it here? Because what we're really talking about is that some half elves and half orcs are born of assault, presumably at a higher percentage than the other races.

GentleGiant wrote:
And the fact that some half-orcs are products of sexual assault actually does add something to the game, it's an instant background hook, which can be utilized in a lot of interesting ways.

I would argue that the idea that the orcs are deliberately attempting to breed half-orcs adds something to the setting. For example, are they targeting one tribe through peaceable means in order to eventually divide and conquer? How do the PCs address that situation? Do they attempt to start war between the orcs and that one human village? Do they feel those villagers are now "evil"? If the orcs exchange young children with the idea that they'll eventually grow up and marry, do the PCs now seperate children and foster parents? Those are tricky role play scenarios. Sexual assault means the orcs are evil (which they already were) and the PCs should kill them and take their stuff (which was already the plan). If you open it up and leave it ambiguous you have a lot more flexibility to create these dilemmas.

GentleGiant wrote:
I'm also concerned that you then in another post suggest that "diplomatic marriages" are a much better solution... erm, hello? So because one's elders have given one away it's no longer rape when the brutal orc chieftain forces himself on you?

Ah Ha! See? The village elders are a-ok with it. The young man or woman isn't. Now the PCs have to discover if that's truly the case and figure out what to do about it. Do they rescue the victims and leave the village to suffer the wrath of the orcs? Do they look away? Do they attempt to find a diplomatic solution? Do they attmept orc genocide to remove this possibility from ever happening again? Whereas leaving the situation explicitly evil is pretty much the same thing as saying that orcs are harvesting humans as cattle, with one real solution: kill the orcs.

It doesn't need to be referred to. Its material the gaming group can introduce if they feel the need.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Seems like dancing around rape, especially for half-orcs, is a bit of a dodge, no?


Matthew Morris wrote:
Ok, any idea how to change it?

Remove it. It doesn't add anything. By the time people are at the reading level required to pick the book up in the first place, they're able to take a pretty good guess at how baby half orcs are made.

Another option is to use a made-up fantasy word like TSR did with demons and devils. Except make it something possible to spell and pronounce. I'm bad at made-up fantasy names, so bear with me:

Known to orcs as the "Maznaru" (i.e. 'the cunning folk'), these orc/human hybrids are occasionally born in the Cinderlands.

There. Done. We know where they are from. We have an alternate name for them if half-orc seems silly or raises uncomfortable questions. Do we need more?

Quote:
*Edit* I still think it's an april fool's joke.

It isn't. I'd have written all of this yesterday if I was able to get the board to work for me.


Half-orcs being the result of rape makes sense in most circumstances. Orcs are usually reviled enemies of other races. They don't meet in the tavern on Fireday or Starday night in the tavern for drinks - they meet anyday night in the wild for ambushes, or anyday day in the wild for fights.

It's just not conductive to normal inter-species relationships. Kruach and Juliet may exist, but they're not the norm.

The only exception I might see is some wild country with orcs and human barbarian-nomads where they stick together for mutual protection and cooperation against the harsh climate and natural predators.

That and human males really getting drunk. Khaggoth knows all about that. (Well, his father does).

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Erik Mona wrote:

Seems like dancing around rape, especially for half-orcs, is a bit of a dodge, no?

That depends. Did the orc's Charisma penalty get dropped the way the half-orc's Charisma penalty did? 'Cause if it did, who's to say there aren't studdly orcs out there wooing human women?

Scarab Sages

JasonKain wrote:
It only annoys me because half-elves are the nice cross-race. Nobody ever really thought of humans and elves mating being naughty, because both parties are traditionally nice and pretty. Half-orcs, on the other hand, get the "terrible violence" bit and that's it. Their generic origin is "Your mother was raped and you came about." Hell, even with this section of Pathfinder, half-elves get the loving couples treatment while all half orcs get is the terrible violence bit.

I don't think this "shiny-happiness" is completely implicit in the race... I don't have my books with me at work, but doesn't the PHB note that many half-elves feel left out of both worlds (human and elven), embraced by neither culture or actively ostracized in some? This is certainly the way it was in older editions... I believe in the Greyhawk setting there is a small town for 'mixed races' in Keoland called Haven... the only solace or belonging they can find is among themselves. They ain't always the Most Popular kids in class.


Hmm, previous post got eaten apparently.

Anyway, what I said in there was that it actually made sense that female orcs mate with human males (perhaps by the female forcing herself on the male) if you want to breed half-orcs for your orc society. If you have female humans and male orcs, then you have to take the human with you and care for her until she gives birth. If you leave the female human behind, then you will not have the offspring and thus defeat your whole purpose. So female orcs and male humans seems the only logical and efficient choice.


Erik Mona wrote:

Seems like dancing around rape, especially for half-orcs, is a bit of a dodge, no?

Oh for Pete's sake the board ate my original response TWICE!

Shorter version:

1) its only a dodge if you've determined its the only possible origin for the race. Other options have been presented in this thread and they don't even fall into the good old standby of "mad wizard's failed experiment".

2) You have a black sheriff and white mayor of sandpoint. Slavery exists in your setting and you have a god of it. If its written that humans of skin color X were brought to Varisia against their will, I haven't read it yet (and it may well be in there). But I would argue that there's no need to go there. Again, it doesn't add anything.

Scarab Sages

BiggusGeekus wrote:
1) its only a dodge if you've determined its the only possible origin for the race. Other options have been presented in this thread and they don't even fall into the good old standby of "mad wizard's failed experiment".

Okay then... What, as a human (which I assume you are), would compel you to make a she-orc squeal like a pig and beget a brood of half-orcs?

They 'magical crossbreeding' excuse only goes so far... I like the mutual reliance in a marginal environment explanation, but I don't think it's likely to work on a global scale. I think that population subjugation/forced breeding is the only likely explanation of half-orcs as a race.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Gavgoyle wrote:
What, as a human... would compel you to make a she-orc squeal like a pig and beget a brood of half-orcs?

Beer goggles?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Gavgoyle wrote:


Okay then... What, as a human (which I assume you are), would compel you to make a she-orc squeal like a pig and beget a brood of half-orcs?

Rape is about power not desire so my answer would be 'hatred'.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

One way of handling critical issues like racism, sexism, colonization, rape, and violence is to downplay them (use euphemisms, introduce mitigating circumstances, discuss them only as an attribute of others) or rule them out of the game.

Another way of handling these issues is to foreground them in a way that allows us to engage with them.

I think Paizo makes room for both but is brave enough to do the latter. You can play the Korvosans as colonizers of Varisia and all that implies or you can put the conflict between Chelaxians and Shoanti in the past.

I prefer having issues of power crop up in my games and allow them to be dealt with in intelligent ways by mature gamers.

Scarab Sages

Tarren Dei wrote:
Gavgoyle wrote:


Okay then... What, as a human (which I assume you are), would compel you to make a she-orc squeal like a pig and beget a brood of half-orcs?
Rape is about power not desire so my answer would be 'hatred'.

Well, part of BG's argument is that rape doesn't need to be listed as the cause of most half-orcs. I disagree with that (with exceptions) and would like for him to expand on better explanations. I agree that the magical mixacology explanation is pretty trite and was wondering if he had other 'for instances' to give.

EDIT: And I know the question was worded flippantly, but is not meant to be insulting.

Sovereign Court

Seems like a mountain made from a molehill, I say let it stand as is.


Gavgoyle wrote:
Well, part of BG's argument is that rape doesn't need to be listed as the cause of most half-orcs. I disagree with that (with exceptions) and would like for him to expand on better explanations. I agree that the magical mixacology explanation is pretty trite and was wondering if he had other 'for instances' to give.

For what its worth the "beer goggles" argument seems to hold for elves. Beings of literal unearthly beauty cavort with regular humans on page 9 of "Curse of the Crimson Throne". So its already out there. Also, there's historical precedent in the stone age. Us homo sapiens found a little Neanderthal lovin' from time to time. Granted, we exterminated all of them later, but lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

Now remember, the orcs in this setting are specifically interested in half-orc progeny. Bearing that in mind....

1) Diplomatic marriages. A peace is brokered with children of both leaders exchanged.

2) Tribute. One human child from a village is given over to the orcs in exchange for peace. The orcs raise the child as one of their own.

3) Mandated interbreeding. In Paraguay of 1814 José Gaspar Rodríguez Francia was elected dictator and styled himself an "enlighted despot". Among his many, many radical decrees was to order citizens of Spanish descent to intermarry with the American Indians of the region. By 1840 Paraguay was ethnically homogeneous and is still moreso today than other parts of South America. Really, you have to read about Francia. He's one of those guys from real life that is too weird to portray in a fantasy game. Anyway, the orcs could take a page from his book and institute a program of their own.

4) Turnabout is fair play. Humans could breed for strength to fight off these orc attacks. A young man might rather prefer the idea of setting down on the farm with a large green woman than getting killed or maimed on the battleground. And an orc lass could find the soft human life appealing. Or humans could employ one of the other methods mentioned here on this list.

5) Payment. Hey, orcs have to do something with all that gold they plunder. Instead of sitting on that thousand gold pieces for adventures to steal, why not offer it to a human woman? One yucky night and a year later she's set up for life.

6) Mutual survival. Already touched on by another poster and you already mentioned it, so we'll close here.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

I think that it should be up to the DM to decide if this is a direction Golarion will take at that specific table. To make it part of core is infusing a certain level of maturity to a game which can otherwise (yes, murder aside) be run in a fairly morally neutral fashion. If it works for a particular character or story, then I don't think someone being the "result of violence" is inappropriate, but insinuating that a majority of half-breeds are due to rape is a bit much.

Now, if the history of Golarion that most of us don't know yet proves to be full of racically motivated wars that justify this, I guess that's another matter, but for the supposedly generic rules flavor text it might not be quite universal enough.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Here's the real story.

On a far distant plain near a brook and an oak
lived two clans of people, two curious folk.
Some, called the "orcs" were well-known as rude louts,
with fur and with tusks tucked right under their snouts.
The "humans" comprised all the neighboring tribe,
with no race adjustments disturbing their vibe.
They hated each other, made raids on their joints,
to claim all the land (and experience points).

Then a fix-it-up gnomeling strolled into the tale
with a polymorph-hat thing he'd got in the mail.
Sylvester McMonkey McBean was his name
and straight to the orcs did he come with a claim.
"The humans are clever and posted some spies
who will notice you raiding. Now if you disguise
yourselves as the humans, they won't know you're there.
You can use my hat-thingy. My prices are fair."

Then as soon as the orcs polymorphed off their tusks
The gnomeling came walking that evening at dusk
and called to the humans "Hello there, my friends.
The orcs over there mean to bring you to ends.
But my polymorph-doohicky hat can allow
You to look like an orc (or a pig or a cow)
And steal your way over to orc-town tonight
And attack them yourselves 'fore the dawn's first daylight.

And so orcs and their "humans" and humans and "orcs"
Encountered each other with fouchards and forks.
Their carried their wounded back home by the morn
and McBean had vamoosed like he'd never been born.

And that's why when orc folk give birth to a new
little orcling its skin sometimes has a pink hue.
And humans who marry and bring forth a child
are sometimes by fur and a snout sweet beguiled.
But children are children, no matter the name,
And "half-orc" and "pink-lings" are loved all the same.


IMO, if you don't like it than don't use it. Nowhere is it written in stone that you have to use a published setting exactly as presented. I always make minor (and sometimes major) changes to worlds where I run my games so if you don't like it, change it. You can house-rule that in your version of Golarion half-orcs are created through any of the means you and others have mentioned. If the phrase's mere existance offends you that much, than you can do something more drastic like get a Sharpie marker or something.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I prefer Half orcs being the product of violence, I don't like the 4E invention of a great orc/human empire that created a subspecies.

The Half species are supposed to be unique in that they have the abilities of both parents, but are outcasts, anything else is like changing demons to devils and devils to demons.

Scarab Sages

"Rape, Pillage, Plunder"

It was that way for hundreds of years in our own world, no reason to believe it would be different in a fantasy world. Especially one with deadly goblins...

Our modern sensibilities tend to think of rape as only an act of power...

Remember the line in "Braveheart", "The trouble with Scotland, is there's too many Scots"...Prima Nocturne, first night...a form of rape that allowed the nobles to sleep with newlywed Scots...obviously it wouldn't have been illegal for a noble.

Main thing is to deal with the setting how you feel it should be dealt with. If as a DM you feel rape is a touchy subject, don't put it in your game.

Dark Archive

I'd have a hard time buying a setting where slavery, murder, inequality,rape and bigotry don't exist. You may not want to have a campaign that obsesses on those themes but I think they have a place in the backdrop of a campaign setting. I'm not recommending necessarily putting front stage and center but say for instance the party hears about a band of brigands that are known to enjoy murder and rapine. That makes them loathsome villains. Their defeat gives the party some satisfaction that they've removed a sinister threat.
It gives social elements for PCs to fight against (like defeating slavers, robbing the rich to give to the poor etc.) and display their heroism. So with regards to the OP I think those elements do add to a setting.
Re the half-orc origin well yes its quite possible half-orcs to have been the result of something other than rape. That's really up to the player to figure out his background and not let a few lines in the race write-up to completely colour their perception.

The Exchange

The half-orc in my party just said both his parents were half-orcs. It certainly makes sense that half-orc children would match up and perpetuate the species. If there was violence in the sexual history of his progenitors, it doesn't have to come up in the character's background. Those events might be generations removed from the character in question.

IMO, it's just a general flavor statement and the setting is more flavorful for it.

Scarab Sages

Any of the "Half" races being called such is really just metagaming in disguise. There are exceptions of course, where someone is trying to insult someone else.

Real world is a good place to look at "half races":

Mulatto

Mestizo

and to a certain extent Creole

Granted these are offensive, but thats not the point here. None of these assumes a perfect 50-50 split, such as the term "half-" implies.

I've always preferred to call Half-elves, for example, something entirely new like "Varishini" - a people who live on the fringes of the elven forest resulting from interbreeding of elves and humans. And then developing a culture for them, economics, and social strata...just like any other race.

In a world where elves and humans CAN breed, they WILL breed, either through the violence of war or through love.
I think this is a great opportunity to do the same. Let the references to "half-elves" and "half-orcs" be relegated to the bigots in Golarion society...

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I really think many of you guys are missing the point by getting hung up on the rape thing.

The problem with half-elves, half-orcs, or really half-breeds in general, is that they are conceptually half-assed. Not only do they not make any kind of biological sense, but they're not at all creative as concepts in and of themselves. Instead of inventing an entirely new race (or species or what have you), let's just make a half-breed, with half the stats - and we don't even have to come up with backstory! Brilliant? No, lazy.

The very definition of species is the ability to reproduce. Essentially, then orcs, elves and humans are the same species, why then, can we not have an orc/elf combination? And why stop there? Why not Halfdwarflings?

My answer is that it is not a matter of why or why not to have halfdwarflings, etc, but what is the concept behind a given race. Dwarves have always been cool because of their mythological backstory in Norse myth.

Half-orcs (etc) simply lack any backstory, mythology, ecology, or anything else whatsoever. Why not just play an orc? Hell, you could use the same stats for 1/2 orcs and just call 'em Klingons? Don't knock it! At least it's a concept, and one with far, far more flavor and history behind it than simply being born of rape, lawful marriage, or a youthful indescretion . . . ;^)

.02.

- FM


Tarren Dei wrote:
Gavgoyle wrote:


Okay then... What, as a human (which I assume you are), would compel you to make a she-orc squeal like a pig and beget a brood of half-orcs?
Rape is about power not desire so my answer would be 'hatred'.

Research does not bare this out. A woman's risk of rape goes up and down with her peak fertility and more attractive women are at a greater risk. It's a long-standing political mantra but it is not true.


BiggusGeekus wrote:
Gavgoyle wrote:
Also, there's historical precedent in the stone age. Us homo sapiens found a little Neanderthal lovin' from time to time. Granted, we exterminated all of them later, but lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

There is zero genetic evidence of the former and the latter is just speculation.

Scarab Sages

Chris Mortika wrote:
Chris Mortika lays down the real f-ing story!

That was beautiful! Epic! Dramatic! Sublime!

I just can't tell my players of the hat in your rhyme.
To find one they would travel many a mile
and lay claim the benifit of an orcish smile.
Yes, to get one they would move the earth and the stars
and their grins would all have tusks upon thars!


Pathfinder would be greatly improved by removing implications of rape in the core rules. Material that's in the core rules implies that its true for most or all of a race. As Eberron has proved, it doesn't have to be done this way.

Given the seriousness of societies' blinkered attitude to rape
Independent News article and the endemic nature of this problem home office report (132 pgs) the "well there's murder in the gameworld" argument is specious - the two societal phenomenon are not comparable.

Settings can be tinkered with; core rules have a far more profound effect upon the consensual reality/paradigm of the game.

I urge Paizo to remove references to rape from their core rules.

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