Chris Pramas reviews 4th Edition


4th Edition

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AZRogue wrote:

No matter what Paizo does they will still have a very, VERY strong advantage with the 4E crowd:

The Gamemastery products. The Item Cards and other aids work no matter which edition you play and, from what we've seen, these aids are even more needed for 4E. Quest Cards, Skill Challenge Cards, more Item Cards (I love those), Condition Tracking aids, etc.

Those items are going to be useful no matter what. As a matter of fact, I imagine that the demand for them will increase. It would also help introduce new players (from 4E) to Paizo's quality products, even if Paizo decides not to switch over.

On what basis are you making these assumptions?

Liberty's Edge

Chris Pramas is a good guy, I'm glad to get his vies on the new game. I've also been going over in my head the previews and what my own crew has to say, including so many posts on so many boards.

The new game doesn't seem to be easier or simpler, it maneuvered the complications around by many accounts. DM prep time isn't about monster stats anymore but now the inane number of options poor DMs are supposed to keep in mind during the myriad tactical choices each round. The comparison to Bo9S not a bug, not a feature (IMO). Math is still there in droves, just shuffled around.

I must say I agree that Paizo COULD bring 3.5 into the future as a living, viable roleplaing hobby just based on their attitude toward gaming, backgrounds and cutting-edge adventures. We’re hip-deep in Golarion and the first Pathfinder campaign, feeling like we’re playing D&D again the way we always remembered and imagined. It was the easiest world to ‘sell’ my players in over 30 years. To see this varied and wondrous world stifled by constraints of rules, classes, and WotC's own censored ideals would be a sin against nature. :-)

It is NO surprise that since the announcement last August, my group knows the most nail-biting time for me is these next 2 weeks, waiting for the possible heartbreak if Paizo will go 4E, or the ultimate elation when I realize we can raise our kids on a decent game and world as Paizo announces it'll stay 3.5.

-DM Jeff

Scarab Sages

AZRogue wrote:

The Gamemastery products. The Item Cards and other aids work no matter which edition you play and, from what we've seen, these aids are even more needed for 4E. Quest Cards, Skill Challenge Cards, more Item Cards (I love those), Condition Tracking aids, etc.

Those items are going to be useful no matter what. As a matter of fact, I imagine that the demand for them will increase. It would also help introduce new players (from 4E) to Paizo's quality products, even if Paizo decides not to switch over.
The Real Troll wrote:
On what basis are you making these assumptions?

One of the designers blogs (I believe it was the one in which marking and bloodying were described) went into a discussion of the tools he was using to record the various effects.

He also said it would speed up play to have each player possess a hand of cards with their various powers on, for ease of reference, and to keep track of what had been used. He also specifically mentioned the Paizo Item Cards as being a great help, to keep track of who had what, what it did, and when it was used.

Liberty's Edge

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Lisa:

Would Paizo be prepared (in the hypothetical situation of Paizo remaining 3.5) to either print their own PHBs or make a pact with WotC to ensure a continuing supply of them to make sure that 4E players wanting to convert wouldn't have to look too far if they didn't have second hand bookstores in town, or regular access to online second-hand stores? That might one reason why people are seeing such a decision as being equivalent to entering a game of diminishing returns.

This is actually a very key thing. Under the OGL, Paizo can make its own PHB, from what we've heard about the GSL that won't be allowed.

So let's say Paizo switches, and in another 5-10 years 5th edition is ready to be rolled out, but Paizo doesn't want to switch to that one. Well they won't be able to continue on with 4e if they can't make their own PHBs or DMGs.

Paizo Employee CEO

Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Would Paizo be prepared (in the hypothetical situation of Paizo remaining 3.5) to either print their own PHBs or make a pact with WotC to ensure a continuing supply of them to make sure that 4E players wanting to convert wouldn't have to look too far if they didn't have second hand bookstores in town, or regular access to online second-hand stores? That might one reason why people are seeing such a decision as being equivalent to entering a game of diminishing returns.

It seems to me that IF a company were to stick with supporting 3.5 that they would need to find a way to keep the rulebooks for that system available and relevant. It would be like printing CCG expansions but not keeping the core set in print. Or making miniatures for a miniatures game that doesn't have the core rulebook in print. One thing I have learned in my years in the gaming industry is that if there isn't a core rulebook available at retail, then that game and all its supplements are dead to the retailer. Nothing can get them griping more than having your core rulebook out of print. So, yes, I think anybody, including Paizo, who is serious about sticking with 3.5, would have to find a way to keep a core rulebook in print.

-Lisa

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Lisa Stevens wrote:

It seems to me that IF a company were to stick with supporting 3.5 that they would need to find a way to keep the rulebooks for that system available and relevant. It would be like printing CCG expansions but not keeping the core set in print. Or making miniatures for a miniatures game that doesn't have the core rulebook in print. One thing I have learned in my years in the gaming industry is that if there isn't a core rulebook available at retail, then that game and all its supplements are dead to the retailer. Nothing can get them griping more than having your core rulebook out of print. So, yes, I think anybody, including Paizo, who is serious about sticking with 3.5, would have to find a way to keep a core rulebook in print.

-Lisa

*Cue the choir of angels*


The problem (at least to my mind) is getting said core rulebook to the populace at large. I'd be willing to bet that for many people, the "local neighborhood gaming store" is really a Borders, or a Barnes and Nobles, as it is for me. And I can tell you my selection of 3rd party materials is VERY limited in such locales. Would they be willing to devote room on their one measly shelf of gaming materials to both a 4E and a 3.5 PHB? I dunno, but my gut tells me no.

People already in the hobby will no doubt go online, or find a more focused store for their purchases, but for those newcomers, I'm not sure where they'd see this 3.5 reprint. Just IMO.

Liberty's Edge

Lisa Stevens wrote:
So, yes, I think anybody, including Paizo, who is serious about sticking with 3.5, would have to find a way to keep a core rulebook in print.

Sudden burst of FLASH in my daydreaming head about seeing a 350 page hardcover called "Pathfinder RPG" on the shelf of my FLGS. Oh man, why does it feel like I'm daydreaming about winning the lottery? But man would that be an awesome day. :-)

-DM Jeff


Dryder wrote:

Correct me, if I am wrong but, what I have seen from 4E is the following:

The new encounter format (Delve Format IIRC), seems to be restricting in itself, as it looks that the complexity of an encounter seems to be shortened, as only two, max. three different creatures could be used to be able to stick to two pages, not talking about traps or whatnot which have to be included.
The whole feeling the 4E previews gave me, make me think that 4E is all about COMBAT not ROLEPLAY! Of course, I could be wrong, but I am sure this is true.
I don't play D&D because of cool combats ('course, I like them), but with a setting like Pathfinder the whole world and scope of D&D (as we all know it) is there for you to explore. 4E looks more like Min/Maxing for me and I am sure, 3.x will remain strong.
People will flock over to 4E, that's sure, but I am also sure, that quite a few of them will come back, because 4E is not what they had expected.
Paizo is strong (with Pathfinder anyway), and they have all the reason (and could be most confident) to believe, heck to know they can hold their base against 4E and are even able (maybe more than any other company presently) to attract new players to the game!

It has been stated a few times by the 4E designers, one you can find in Wizards Presents: Races&Classes preview. They have stated that D&D is about killing monsters and not interaction. But they've put in some RP rules to satisfy the RP crowd, of course. They need to try and attract as much people as possible, after all.


Chris Pramas wrote:
What I think WotC is going for here is what Marvel managed to pull off with their Ultimate line of comics: take the core of the IP and redefine it for a new generation.

This is the problem: When you redefine a product for a new generation, you have to make sure the new generation is paying attention.

The "new generation" today just doesn't do pen and paper. That's not a 100% truism, of course, but in general the people 4e is marketed towards are far more interested in MySpace, YouTube, and World of Warcraft. They simply aren't going to be into lugging 20-lb. sacks of $40 rulebooks across town to game, the way our generation was.

If you want the new generation, you need to make an MMO. If you want to make a pen-and-paper game, it's the middle generation you need to market to.

Things are changing, and companies like WotC are going to miss the boat if they don't realize that. Past glories notwithstanding, the Kingston Trio and the Dave Brubeck Quartet simply aren't going to compete with the Beatles and the Stones once 1965 rolls along. Eventually, it's time to realize that and find your niche, where there is plenty of money still to be made. Tony Bennett still makes a ton of money, 40 years after his last hit record.

Everybody wants to be the New Hotness, but what the hell is wrong with the Old Coolness?

Dark Archive

Months ago I pondered if;

Striker = red deck
Controller = blue deck
Leader = white deck
Defender = green deck?

But I was thought to be trolling. The comparison was also called a strawman. Seemed like a solid comparison to me, and the thought that it was automatically a bad thing that WotC was taking a model that had made them millions and trying to tap (no pun intended) it's success to revitalize D&D didn't particularly offend me.

(Just as comparisons to WoW, a game I've played, don't bug me. If D&D could harness some of the best aspects of WoW, or MtG, or Hello Kitty Island Adventures, I don't care the provenance, so long as the ideas adopted strengthen the game.)

It's not like WotC invented the concept of different tactical units, some of which concentrate on undoing the actions of the opponent (medical units, for instance) and others concentrating on dishing out firepower (infantry, artillery), while still others concentrate on coordinating and optimizing units on the field (command and control). It didn't start with the five colors of magic, and it's not going to end if it makes it into D&D.

Blame Sun Tzu, as much as Peter Adkinson. The notion's been out there a fair time.

Dark Archive

Lisa Stevens wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Would Paizo be prepared (in the hypothetical situation of Paizo remaining 3.5) to either print their own PHBs or make a pact with WotC to ensure a continuing supply of them to make sure that 4E players wanting to convert wouldn't have to look too far if they didn't have second hand bookstores in town, or regular access to online second-hand stores? That might one reason why people are seeing such a decision as being equivalent to entering a game of diminishing returns.

It seems to me that IF a company were to stick with supporting 3.5 that they would need to find a way to keep the rulebooks for that system available and relevant. It would be like printing CCG expansions but not keeping the core set in print. Or making miniatures for a miniatures game that doesn't have the core rulebook in print. One thing I have learned in my years in the gaming industry is that if there isn't a core rulebook available at retail, then that game and all its supplements are dead to the retailer. Nothing can get them griping more than having your core rulebook out of print. So, yes, I think anybody, including Paizo, who is serious about sticking with 3.5, would have to find a way to keep a core rulebook in print.

-Lisa

Well how difficult would it be to put the 3.5 system...or even a 3.75 system in the Pathfinder campaign setting book due out...is it this summer...right? Seems that having a PHB out there and in print would be pretty easy.

The Exchange

The Real Troll wrote:
The party's over for those guys, I give them a year before management changes. Either 4.0 will be a bust or Paizo out sells them. Either outcome is a failure for them.

Care to make a wager on that?


The Last Rogue wrote:

The only problem with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) going against 4e is the influx of new gamers.

Yes, Paizo may have a solid group of stalwarts who stay 3.5 . . .but in 2-3-4 years they will likely be facing diminishing returns.

Using the OGL Paizo could put out their own, slightly tweaked, core books to ensure that 3.X lives on... even for new gamers.

If Pathfinder and GameMastery products continue to be of exceptional quality, I have little doubt that Paizo's loyal customers will bring newbies into the fold.

One of the strengths of the OGL is that it allows for adaptation and growth of the d20 rules. This is why I'd love to see a 3.5 compatible 4th edition OGL ruleset eventually... especially if Paizo and/or Green Ronin develop this ruleset.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
So, yes, I think anybody, including Paizo, who is serious about sticking with 3.5, would have to find a way to keep a core rulebook in print.
DM Jeff wrote:

Sudden burst of FLASH in my daydreaming head about seeing a 350 page hardcover called "Pathfinder RPG" on the shelf of my FLGS. Oh man, why does it feel like I'm daydreaming about winning the lottery? But man would that be an awesome day. :-)

-DM Jeff

I would buy such a book in a heartbeat! I've been a vocal proponent of a Pathfinder RPG ever since 4th edition was announced and would do whatever it takes to help such a project along (pre-order it months in advance, volunteer as a proof reader and/or playtester, stand on a street corner holding a sign... you name it!)


Chris Perkins 88 wrote:
I [...] would do whatever it takes to help such a project along (pre-order it months in advance, volunteer as a proof reader and/or playtester, stand on a street corner holding a sign... you name it!)

Euugh...stop it, you're getting drool all over my shoes.

But really, isn't the Pathfinder Campaign Setting just that?


Gentlefolk,

On the subject of a 3.75 Edition.. there was some interesting discussion between myself, GregH, and Ross Byers..

It was towards the bottom of this other tangent thread Lisa's thought exercise

This is not a rebuke that anybody's using the wrong thread to discuss it. No, far from it. But I would welcome your discussion over there as well.


Krypter wrote:


Euugh...stop it, you're getting drool all over my shoes.

But really, isn't the Pathfinder Campaign Setting just that?

Umm... that wasn't drool

As Lisa Stevens said, for 3.X to stay alive, core books need to be put out for the system to thrive.

If the core rules were packaged with campaign settings, that would do the trick.

I'd prefer separate core books that are relatively fluff-free, so that they can be used with other settings with minimal tweaking.

The Exchange

Lisa Stevens wrote:
The Last Rogue wrote:

The only problem with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) going against 4e is the influx of new gamers.

Yes, Paizo may have a solid group of stalwarts who stay 3.5 . . .but in 2-3-4 years they will likely be facing diminishing returns.

Essentially, what I am saying is this:

The danger of hitching your business to the current edition is you have a set # of people (most set in their ways and games) and that number is likely to be much more limited and much less likely to grow as quickly as 4e consumers.

I do not envy Paizo's choice.

I just have to jump in on this thought. IF we were to stay with 3.5, what makes you think that there wouldn't be an influx of new gamers? To wit, take a look at Games Workshop. Their business model is to bring in young kids, around age 14 to 16, and basically they expect to lose them in 4 to 6 years. Companies like Privateer Press make their bucks taking the ex-GW players and making them into Warmachine or Hordes players. Rackham does this also.

So why couldn't Paizo, IF we were to stay with 3.5, get a regular influx of younger gamers who got weaned into the industry by 4th edition, but got bored and started looking for a more complicated game, or perhaps heard about this amazing campaign setting called Pathfinder Chronicles? I don't really understand why everyone thinks that IF a company stuck with 3.5, that it was like they were stuck in a hermetically sealed room or something.

Of all the pros and cons everyone mentions about 4e vs. 3.5e, this one drives me the most nuts. :) So, again, I ask, why would sticking with 3.5 mean entering a game of diminishing returns?

-Lisa

DISCLAIMER: This post is entirely a thought exercise and shouldn't be construed as proof either for or against Paizo going to 4e or not. We haven't seen the GSL or the rules yet, so we have no decision to report. I just couldn't resist making this point though. :)

Well said. I had not considered it in the light you are putting it in; not just continuing 3.5 but also putting in both marketing and branding efforts to attract new customers or expanding the customer base. My initial thought had been just the existing shift in the market. This would indeed be an interesting path if you do decide to do so, though it might require additional capital and maybe bringing Kobold Quarterly into the fold somehow. :)

Paizo Employee CEO

tadkil wrote:
At its base, it is possible to endure and survive as an 3.5/OGL company post 4.0, but it will take an evolution of your business model to do so. Serving amarket is not the same thign as developing one.

Tadkil:

I agree with pretty much everything you say. IF a company like Paizo was to do what I mentioned above, it would have to evolve its business model and the way it does marketing. Not insurmountable obstacles, but additional expenses for sure.

So just so we look at the other side of the coin, IF a company like Paizo goes to 4e and supports the newest edition of Dungeons and Dragons, how do they get the attention of the new 4e converts? There is no Dragon or Dungeon magazines to advertise in, and on top of it, you are directly competing with products WotC is putting out the door, extolling through their DDI, and cross-supporting in their own books. Seems to me that you have the same problems reaching those customers that you would if you were to stick with 3.5e. You would have to change your business model to and marketing model just to stand a chance to get the attention of the 4e players, who will more than likely have their hands full just affording the rush of new products WotC is planning to put out. I realize it is a different problem, but similar in many respects.

Thoughts? :)

-Lisa


Snorter wrote:
AZRogue wrote:

The Gamemastery products. The Item Cards and other aids work no matter which edition you play and, from what we've seen, these aids are even more needed for 4E. Quest Cards, Skill Challenge Cards, more Item Cards (I love those), Condition Tracking aids, etc.

Those items are going to be useful no matter what. As a matter of fact, I imagine that the demand for them will increase. It would also help introduce new players (from 4E) to Paizo's quality products, even if Paizo decides not to switch over.
The Real Troll wrote:
On what basis are you making these assumptions?

One of the designers blogs (I believe it was the one in which marking and bloodying were described) went into a discussion of the tools he was using to record the various effects.

He also said it would speed up play to have each player possess a hand of cards with their various powers on, for ease of reference, and to keep track of what had been used. He also specifically mentioned the Paizo Item Cards as being a great help, to keep track of who had what, what it did, and when it was used.

Snorter answered for me, Real Troll. The article spoke of various tools that he uses, would like to use, and how they aid play in 4E. He did specifically mention Paizo's Item Cards, which are great. It wouldn't be hard to build off of that since 4E looks as though it could benefit from some game aids even more than 3E does. Power cards, Condition Trackers or Cards, Skill Challenge Cards, Markers for the Defenders, etc. I would buy them.

Paizo Employee CEO

Hey y'all:

I just want to thank everyone for the posts in this thread and the "Lisa's Thought Experiment" thread. Just so you know, I spend my days (and evenings and weekends) doing these types of thought experiments. Some of the best days in my business career came while working with Ryan Dancey on 3e at WotC. We would sit for hours at a time and dissect the gaming industry up one side and down the other. Just thinking about possible strategies and the ramifications of them is something I enjoy. Even before 4e was announced, I have been thinking about strategies for what to do when it is announced, even trying to guess when it might be announced. As soon as WotC announced their plans, I was working with Erik, Jeff, and Vic on a variety of strategies, both moving to 4e and not moving to 4e. You have to think your strategies through and keep revisiting them if you want to make good decisions. As more information becomes available, you change or drop strategies until you make a decision. Paizo still hasn't made its decision, but we are getting closer to doing so. These little "thought exercises" allow me to keep my strategies sharp and, hopefully, make the right decision going forward. So thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

-Lisa

Liberty's Edge

Lisa Stevens wrote:
These little "thought exercises" allow me to keep my strategies sharp and, hopefully, make the right decision going forward. So thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

And, as if it hasn't been said elsewhere aplenty on these boards, thanks for listening and involving us.

-DM Jeff


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

With respect, how many people have actually started on 3e and turned back to 2e? I appreciate that there is a difference between that and your suggested turning 4e players into 3e players, but even so I don't see it. I do see people being turned on to Pathfinder, but I find it hard to believe the 4e players who have started with that edition will want to turn to an older edition to get extra D&D goodness. I would imagine they would probably assume it was the same, but "older" and "fiddlier", and instead turn to a different game that didn't mention dungeons and dragons in the title. And they might be right.

At...

I am no business expert but there are two key differences. First, 2E was entirely proprietary. No one could support it without paying royalties to WOTC.

Second, and this is the big one, is that many people are of the opinion that 4E is just a different game, but not necessarily a better game. (Yes there are many people who have a differing opinion). 3E added many new concepts that were not present in 2E (monsters having ability scores, a core mechanic, feats) and improved existing ones (the skills system of 3E worked much better than 2E's proficiencies). The improvements were so stark that 2E was an obsolete game.

3E was to 2E what the car was to the horse and buggy.
4E is to 3E what New Coke was to Old Coke.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
So just so we look at the other side of the coin, IF a company like Paizo goes to 4e and supports the newest edition of Dungeons and Dragons, how do they get the attention of the new 4e converts? There is no Dragon or Dungeon magazines to advertise in, and on top of it, you are directly competing with products WotC is putting out the door, extolling through their DDI, and cross-supporting in their own books.

And it's worth repeating that under the new GSL, you are in business because your chief competitor allows you to be. The more success you have, the more of a market threat you are to your own licensor.

I can't get past the alarm bells that situation sets off. Any licensee that wants to move beyond WotC's table scraps (putting out modules and stuff that WotC considers too unprofitable to bother with themselves), may have problems...especially if their products are perceived as being better than those WotC puts out...

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Seems to me that you have the same problems reaching those customers that you would if you were to stick with 3.5e. You would have to change your business model to and marketing model just to stand a chance to get the attention of the 4e players, who will more than likely have their hands full just affording the rush of new products WotC is planning to put out. I realize it is a different problem, but similar in many respects.

Thoughts? :)

Staying with 3.5 would mean being a niche company...but it's a big niche (40-50% of existing D&D gamers), and Paizo is the best positioned of any company to exploit it.

Getting some Golarion fiction out there would help tremendously to attract potential new gamers to Paizo. (*cough*ElaineCunningham*cough)

The Exchange

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Hey y'all:

I just want to thank everyone for the posts in this thread and the "Lisa's Thought Experiment" thread. Just so you know, I spend my days (and evenings and weekends) doing these types of thought experiments. Some of the best days in my business career came while working with Ryan Dancey on 3e at WotC. We would sit for hours at a time and dissect the gaming industry up one side and down the other. Just thinking about possible strategies and the ramifications of them is something I enjoy. Even before 4e was announced, I have been thinking about strategies for what to do when it is announced, even trying to guess when it might be announced. As soon as WotC announced their plans, I was working with Erik, Jeff, and Vic on a variety of strategies, both moving to 4e and not moving to 4e. You have to think your strategies through and keep revisiting them if you want to make good decisions. As more information becomes available, you change or drop strategies until you make a decision. Paizo still hasn't made its decision, but we are getting closer to doing so. These little "thought exercises" allow me to keep my strategies sharp and, hopefully, make the right decision going forward. So thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

-Lisa

Please, just let as know ASAP about the decision. I would hate to be left waiting like Paizo waits for WotC to send the new GSL....;P

Jon Brazer Enterprises

DM Jeff wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
These little "thought exercises" allow me to keep my strategies sharp and, hopefully, make the right decision going forward. So thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

And, as if it hasn't been said elsewhere aplenty on these boards, thanks for listening and involving us.

-DM Jeff

What Jeff said.


Lisa Stevens wrote:


Tadkil:

I agree with pretty much everything you say. IF a company like Paizo was to do what I mentioned above, it would have to evolve its business model and the way it does marketing. Not insurmountable obstacles, but additional expenses for sure.

So just so we look at the other side of the coin, IF a company like Paizo goes to 4e and supports the newest edition of Dungeons and Dragons, how do they get the attention of the new 4e converts? There is no Dragon or Dungeon magazines to advertise in, and on top of it, you are directly competing with products WotC is putting out the door, extolling through their DDI, and cross-supporting in their own books. Seems to me that you have the same problems reaching those customers that you would if you were to stick with 3.5e. You would have to change your business model to and marketing model just to stand a chance to get the attention of the 4e players, who will more than likely have their hands full just affording the rush of new products WotC is planning to put out. I realize it is a different problem, but similar in many respects.

Thoughts? :)

-Lisa

Univerally, Paizo's selling point seems to be quality.

And I don't mean that in the usual "Kiss Up to Staff" way that I sometimes come across. The only reason I'm part of this community spending money is by the word of mouth reputation of putting forward a great product. One that is mostly self-contained. I buy this stuff, and with some Core Books, I have an entire campaign.

That was the selling point for me, and how you got my patronage.

****************

You know, Lisa, there's something I wanted to tell or show you the other day. I don't want to do a disservice to the rest of the Editorial Team, but I think you're the one who might best understand this observation.

The other day I went over to EN World and was part of a conversation in the thread concerning Jason Bulmahn's interview. In that thread there was a discussion with a poster named "Buzz."

Buzz expressed that he couldn't understand why Paizo wasn't switching, and several posters tried to explain that the decision wasn't made, no one just had enough information. He said he felt like Paizo was negative towards 4th Edition, and some of us tried to explain that the customer community didn't necessarily reflect the Editorial Team.

Finally Buzz said he had to cancel his subscription just because if there might not be 4th Edition support he couldn't stay. I told him that I was sure that Paizo was sorry to see him go, and hoped maybe to have him back someday depending on how the decision played out.

Here's the important part.

Buzz then said he loved Pathfinder, and he loved Paizo, and he was sorry he had to go.

I'm not trying to depict the guy as a wuss, or disrespect him. Far from it. But that fellow had an emotional reaction. He was a little hurt and felt a little betrayed that he had to make a choice. And even though he made the best choice for him, he had some regrets even still.

What does this have to do with anything?

Paizo's marketing approach.

You're getting an emotional reaction, so that people are sorry they're not buying your products, and wish they still could. That's fascinating.

Whatever you're doing to engender the loyalty that you're gathering- you have to keep it up.


jayouzts wrote:


3E was to 2E what the car was to the horse and buggy.
4E is to 3E what New Coke was to Old Coke.

Well, not to nitpick, but I don't think 3E to 4E is Coke to New Coke. I think it's more like Coke to Diet Coke. There's a place for Diet Coke. It's just not as full flavored, having a flavor of its own.


Coridan wrote:


Great news for the 3.75ers

I hate that term but can't think of a better one yet.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
tadkil wrote:
At its base, it is possible to endure and survive as an 3.5/OGL company post 4.0, but it will take an evolution of your business model to do so. Serving amarket is not the same thign as developing one.

Tadkil:

I agree with pretty much everything you say. IF a company like Paizo was to do what I mentioned above, it would have to evolve its business model and the way it does marketing. Not insurmountable obstacles, but additional expenses for sure.

So just so we look at the other side of the coin, IF a company like Paizo goes to 4e and supports the newest edition of Dungeons and Dragons, how do they get the attention of the new 4e converts? There is no Dragon or Dungeon magazines to advertise in, and on top of it, you are directly competing with products WotC is putting out the door, extolling through their DDI, and cross-supporting in their own books. Seems to me that you have the same problems reaching those customers that you would if you were to stick with 3.5e. You would have to change your business model to and marketing model just to stand a chance to get the attention of the 4e players, who will more than likely have their hands full just affording the rush of new products WotC is planning to put out. I realize it is a different problem, but similar in many respects.

Thoughts? :)

-Lisa

Thats a tough one indeed (which is partly why I think you guys are in a tough spot either way!)

I'm sure many will have thoughts/opinions on this, but publishing for 4E will at least put you in the "new and shiny" territory for stores with limited shelf space (and limited understanding, again like Barnes and Nobles).

Hopefully, you choose the way that works out the best! (No pressure though! :P)

Jon Brazer Enterprises

ArchLich wrote:
I hate that term but can't think of a better one yet.

Pathfinder Chronicles RPG Hopefuls

Scarab Sages

ArchLich wrote:
Coridan wrote:


Great news for the 3.75ers

I hate that term but can't think of a better one yet.

Grognards?

^_^

How about simply Pathfinders.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Wicht wrote:
ArchLich wrote:
Coridan wrote:


Great news for the 3.75ers

I hate that term but can't think of a better one yet.

How about simply Pathfinders.

Yeah, I like that one...Pathfinders, forging off the beaten path to lands unknown full of danger and treasure!

Liberty's Edge

DitheringFool wrote:
Wicht wrote:
ArchLich wrote:
Coridan wrote:


Great news for the 3.75ers

I hate that term but can't think of a better one yet.

How about simply Pathfinders.

Yeah, I like that one...Pathfinders

Thirded


Forgottenprince wrote:
Thirded

Order direct from Paizo and receive a genuine Ioun Stone. :D

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
With respect, how many people have actually started on 3e and turned back to 2e?

On the other hand:

1978 - Basic D&D is published.
1979 - AD&D is published.
1981 - Basic D&D is republished with expanded rules.
1989 - AD&D 2e is published.
1991 - Basic D&D is republished with expanded rules.
2000 - D&D 3e is published.

Notice the trend: for as long as two versions of D&D were being actively supported, _both_ versions attracted big enough fan bases to warrant further publication and expansion. Editions of D&D are not zero-sum games.

(As an aside, 4e seems to have as much in common with Basic D&D as it does 3e, so arguably, 4e could be called Basic D&D re-imagined, thus continuing the pattern in the above history of D&D.)

Dark Archive

Lisa Stevens wrote:
tadkil wrote:
At its base, it is possible to endure and survive as an 3.5/OGL company post 4.0, but it will take an evolution of your business model to do so. Serving amarket is not the same thign as developing one.

Tadkil:

I agree with pretty much everything you say. IF a company like Paizo was to do what I mentioned above, it would have to evolve its business model and the way it does marketing. Not insurmountable obstacles, but additional expenses for sure.

So just so we look at the other side of the coin, IF a company like Paizo goes to 4e and supports the newest edition of Dungeons and Dragons, how do they get the attention of the new 4e converts? There is no Dragon or Dungeon magazines to advertise in, and on top of it, you are directly competing with products WotC is putting out the door, extolling through their DDI, and cross-supporting in their own books. Seems to me that you have the same problems reaching those customers that you would if you were to stick with 3.5e. You would have to change your business model to and marketing model just to stand a chance to get the attention of the 4e players, who will more than likely have their hands full just affording the rush of new products WotC is planning to put out. I realize it is a different problem, but similar in many respects.

Thoughts? :)

-Lisa

I'm not a marketing guy but I have been thinking about everything.

Since WoTC has essentially abandoned the 3.5 market just by having a viable 3.5 product line you're likely to gain market share if you fill the void they've left. The 3.5 market is there, the 4.0 market may be there. 100% conversion is not going to happen. People abhor change, it takes time and effort to change and learn new rules. So the most important question on every market person's mind is what is going to be the conversion rate? Even if it's say 70%, and Paizo then captures say 25% of the remaining market if your share was 15% before, then you just won big time, in the short term anyway. Then it becomes a game of trying to convince people to stay with your product and bring in people from the 4.0 camp. You're the pepsi to their coke.

WoTC has the hard job, convert people to a new entirely different product people haven't been using. And lets be honest has a tepid to negative buzz. Oh I'm sure the brand name will work wonders but people will eventually realize it's an entirely different "animal" they're dealing with. You as Paizo have an easier job, convince people to keep buying product similar to the product they've already been buying.

I'd love to be in Paizo's shoes, this is a great opportunity to grow and get out from under WoTC's shadow.

Just my 2 coppers

Liberty's Edge

Watcher wrote:
Forgottenprince wrote:
Thirded
Order direct from Paizo and receive a genuine Ioun Stone. :D

Forgive me for being dense, but huh?

Mind broken.... etstate and gift tax....

Dark Archive

Oh and while you're at it, bring back dragon, or a variant. I miss it.
}; )


Alex Draconis wrote:

I'm not marketing guy but I have been thinking about everything.

Since WoTC has essentially abandoned the 3.5 market just by having a viable 3.5 product line you're likely to gain market share if you fill the void they've left. The 3.5 market is there, the 4.0 market may be there. 100% conversion is not going to happen. People abhor change, it takes time and effort to change and learn new rules. So the most important question on every market person's mind is what is going to be the conversion rate? Even if it's say 70%, and Paizo then captures say 25% of the remaining market if your share was 15% before, then you just won big time, in the short term anyway. Then it becomes a game of trying to convince people to stay with your product and bring in people from the 4.0 camp. You're the pepsi to their coke.

WoTC has the hard job, convert people to a new entirely different product people haven't been using. And lets be honest has a tepid to negative buzz. Oh I'm sure the brand name will work wonders but people will eventually realize it's an entirely different "animal" they're dealing with. You as Paizo have an easier job, convince people to keep buying product similar to the product they've already been buying.

I'd love to be in Paizo's shoes, this is a great opportunity to grow and get out from under WoTC's shadow.

I think your numbers are off there. If Paizo has 15% of 100%, then 70% of that 100% leaves and Paizo gains another 25% of the remainder thats only 12% of the original (ie, they'd lose 3%)

Of course your numbers are just made up so they have no relavance here, but I agree with the trend you predict no matter which way they side (that is, I think they're going to lose customers either way, which sucks).

I'd say Paizo has the harder job here, with WotC essentially relying on the DnD brand to carry their day. Maybe 4E is taking all the optimism I can spare though. Hopefully it works out!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Watcher wrote:
Forgottenprince wrote:
Thirded
Order direct from Paizo and receive a genuine Ioun Stone. :D

um, Watcher?

I checked, yours is a kidney stone.


Forgottenprince wrote:


Order direct from Paizo and receive a genuine Ioun Stone. :D

Forgive me for being dense, but huh?

Mind broken.... etstate and gift tax....

No problem.. It's an actual Pathfinder inside joke. If you read the fiction in the monthly Pathfinder books, Eando is always looking for an Ioun Stone. You see, Pathfinders all have compasses that are also flashlights (via a shuttered light spell). These wayfinders also have little notches in them, and if you insert an Ioun Stone in a wayfinder, it unlocks a bunch of cool (but as of yet undescribed) powers.

So if you're a 'Pathfinder' you want to get an Ioun Stone..

Dumb play on words I realize...


Matthew Morris wrote:


um, Watcher?

I checked, yours is a kidney stone.

Not quite what I had in mind.. :(

I hope it's not literally *my* kidney stone. I've known a couple guys that had 'em, and that looked like it sucked big time.

Liberty's Edge

Watcher wrote:
Forgottenprince wrote:


Order direct from Paizo and receive a genuine Ioun Stone. :D

Forgive me for being dense, but huh?

Mind broken.... etstate and gift tax....

No problem.. It's an actual Pathfinder inside joke. If you read the fiction in the monthly Pathfinder books, Eando is always looking for an Ioun Stone. You see, Pathfinders all have compasses that are also flashlights (via a shuttered light spell). These wayfinders also have little notches in them, and if you insert an Ioun Stone in a wayfinder, it unlocks a bunch of cool (but as of yet undescribed) powers.

So if you're a 'Pathfinder' you want to get an Ioun Stone..

Dumb play on words I realize...

Again, my fault, like I said, my mind is broke...

I'd give a fair amount of cash for my own personal ioun stone....

epcially if actually floated...


even though im heavy houseruled if a pathfinder phb,dmg,mm were to be made u could count me so in. id be in just for the art and the see paizo takes on classes and monsters.

Dark Archive

David Marks wrote:

I think your numbers are off there. If Paizo has 15% of 100%, then 70% of that 100% leaves and Paizo gains another 25% of the remainder thats only 12% of the original (ie, they'd lose 3%)

Of course your numbers are just made up so they have no relavance here, but I agree with the trend you predict no matter which way they side (that is, I think they're going to lose customers either way, which sucks).

I'd say Paizo has the harder job here, with WotC essentially relying on the DnD brand to carry their day. Maybe 4E is taking all the optimism I can spare though. Hopefully it works out!

I don't mean 25% of the remainder, I mean 25% of the entire market.

So say base "1000" total, Paizo 150 at current. 700 go to 4.0 leaving 300 behind. Paizo then gets 250. 50 flee for other systems. 250 > 150

Sorry if I wasn't clear and yes it's all theoretical. Thanks David.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Alex Draconis wrote:
I mean 25% of the entire market.

That would make them larger then White Wolf. They're #2 in the industry. 25% of the entire market is about 1/2 of WotC D&D's marketshare.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Alex Draconis wrote:
I mean 25% of the entire market.
That would make them larger then White Wolf. They're #2 in the industry. 25% of the entire market is about 1/2 of WotC D&D's marketshare.

If Paizo merely supported 3.5 with material then that's one thing. I would only pick up the occasional flavor piece, or for articles. If they made their own rules system, though, I would have to buy it. Because you know it would kick ass.

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