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RPG Superstar 2015

The 15 Minute Adventuring Day v4.0?


D&D 4th Edition (and Beyond)

Shadow Lodge

I posted the following in one of the post DDX threads a couple of days ago. It was a bit off-topic and never got a response from anyone, but I think it is a meaningful question. My belief is reinforced by Jason Bulmahn's comments regarding 4e play.

Here is my original post:

Lich-Loved wrote:

First off, thanks for showing up here for rules clarifications Rodney. And now on to my own question:

This rest thing is something that has been in the back of my mind for some time. It is suggested that the party stop to "rest" (as in the old 3.5 manner) when everyone is out of daily powers and/or down to one healing surge. My concern is that given:

(1)It is harder for PCs to die in 4e (lethality reduced compared to 3e by design)
(2)DMs still want to "press" their parties on most encounters (admittedly a preference thing, but at least in my group, an encounter the party just blows through is more of a time waster than a meaningful story element, thus encounters for us are times when the characters are quite pressed to survive)

Isn't it likely that the party will just blow their once per day powers and healing surges in these preliminary encounters, or after a few of them, and we are right back to the 15 minute adventuring day?

And here is an excerpt of the Jason Bulmahn interview:

EN World's 'The Universe' interviewed Jason Bulmahn and wrote:

[...interview excerpted by me, all emphasis in this quote mine...]

Jason contended that the new edition's apparent focus on adding variety to player options and keeping people engaged at the table at all times had seemed to him, after 2 preview sessions, to be a "partial success." While the "Encounter" and "Daily" powers on the sheet were interesting, it seemed like PCs were once more reduced to "doing the same thing over and over again" after they had burned through them, something that the 4e designers had at least ostensibly attempted to avoid. He confirmed that, in one of the previews he played, a final combat had lasted for nearly 40 rounds(!) (apparently against the 280 hit point Black Dragon mentioned elsewhere).

Jason asserted that it often seemed as if PCs were either "coasting" through adventuring challenges in the new edition, or "completely terrified" by foes that wildly overmatched them. He claimed that, in his admittedly limited experience, he hadn't felt particularly threatened until forced to face a "Solo" monster 3 levels higher than the party (apparently the same Black Dragon). He acknowledged that the death and dying mechanic ensured that most PC's would have at least 3 rounds to live after they lost consciousness, but wondered if it would put DMs in a position where "the only to kill you is to attack you while you're down."

I am concerned that despite all these new powers and even the "13 healing surges a day" for the dwarf (as discussed in yet another thread here on Paizo), we are looking at short adventuring days to recharge cool powers used to take down tough foes.

What do the rest of you think about this?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I don't have time for a long post and agree this may still be a problem. However, I would note that you don't need to rest 24 hours to reset per day powers or refresh cleric spells. The flavor of the 6 hour extended rest might be something other than sleeping (e.g., planning, mapping, etc), which may also mitigate the problem for some groups.


I don't think 4E will have the 15 minute adventuring day completely fixed, but if they at least can force it into the 1 hour day, I'll be happy! :)

I kid, mostly. The problem will likely still be in 4E in some form or another, but hopefully just not as bad. The fact that only a small number of powers seem to be daily will help ensure that the group isn't overly crippled if they've already used their daily abilities, and since healing surges heal 25% of your max HP, you'll only ever need 4 to completely heal from an encounter. So you should almost always be able to fit in 3+ encounters, although (as always!) without the rules this is mostly speculation. Cheers! :)


I dont think that a delve game is necessarily the best example of a "typical" D&D game.
From what I'd heard, the delve was supposed to be very deadly (hence the solo dragon at the end).


I think this is a case of not wanting to give 4E credit where credit is due.

Daily powers aren't that great. You can survive without them.

I think the quote from Jason shows lack of experience in 4E. They were pregen sheets run by players who were still trying to understand what they could do. It's no surprise that the anecdotal experience will be "the players kept doing the same thing over and over", because they had no knowledge of what they really could do.

If you have a table of players in 3.5 who don't know how to grapple, tumble, disarm, bull rush, activate power attack, aid another or use magic items then the first run is going to be "I swing...I miss" and seem very boring. It's not because the system doesn't allow for more options, it's because the players don't know what they can do.

And players who want to rest because they're 'bored' of using their half dozen or so encounter and at will powers for the day could still fight without being substantially weaker. In 3.5, that is not the case.


Takasi wrote:


I think the quote from Jason shows lack of experience in 4E.

He has played 4E and is commenting on his experiences. This statement claims that you have the expertise to judge his experience. How much experience do you have playing 4E?

I do not mean to sound harsh but that statement colours your whole post as dismissive.

Edit: Sorry. I have reread your post and it is dismissive.

Shadow Lodge

Takasi wrote:
And players who want to rest because they're 'bored' of using their half dozen or so encounter and at will powers for the day could still fight without being substantially weaker. In 3.5, that is not the case.

I am going to disagree with you here. I believe that the encounters are going to end up, just as Jason says they were, either incredibly easy or very difficult. I further strongly believe that you will not survive difficult encounters without use of your encounter and daily powers and also believe that most encounters will be of the difficult variety because DMs will want to run encounters that are meaningful for the story and that challenge the players, not fluff encounters. That may not be the case at some tables, I know, but in reading the published adventures out there, you don't see a lot of encounters that are cakewalks for the players. Thus players will not be able to progress when daily powers are used, at least not without significant risk, which is the same situation you see now.


David Marks wrote:
So you should almost always be able to fit in 3+ encounters, although (as always!) without the rules this is mostly speculation. Cheers! :)

As you say, this is mostly speculation.

But I am not convinced. The What you need to know primer even gives the tip to take an extended rest when Healing Surges are low, or Daily Powers are used.

So we have to wait and see how things work. But right now, it doesn't look like it is really fixed.


Lich-Loved wrote:
I know, but in reading the published adventures out there, you don't see a lot of encounters that are cakewalks for the players.

I think this is a side effect of the DDXP players using 1st level characters that did not level up as they where put through their paces.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber
Takasi wrote:
Daily powers aren't that great. You can survive without them.

Takasi, you are wrong.

In the adventure I played this weekend, the wizard's daily Sleep spell was the difference between us getting wiped out by a whole bunch of hobgoblins and winning the encounter.
In the final encounter of that same adventure, being able to one-shot the enemy caster with my daily Brute Strike (I was the dwarf fighter) made the difference in the fight.

-J

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Alright, little more time to post.

The important question to me is not whether the 15 minute day is fixed, but rather what were the problems with the 15 minute day and have those problems been fixed. The problem is not that you can only take on 3-5 encounters and then rest; it's that the resting cycle is so long that it creates additional problems. In my game, they come in three flavors:

1. The "save the princess problem". This crops up whenever the adventure imposes a time limit on PC actions. A good DM or an extremely good adventure writer can craft an adventure to meet the timeline, but what I encounter much more often is the task that needs to be completed quickly and which the PCs cannot complete without at least one rest. This may be because they have a flubbed an encounter early on and need to regain resources or it may be because they needed spell x but do not have a means to cast it w/o resting or buying a scroll. A good example is a recent adventure I ran where the PCs were out to save some children kidnapped by kobolds. The dungeon was sufficiently challenging that the PCs faced the dilemna - pull out and rest for 24 hours or press forward and risk death.

The 4e system and it's 6 hour full recharge does a great deal to address this problem. A 24 hour time limit in 3e requires exceptional encounter preparation skills by the DM and exceptional resource management by the players. Granted, the same problem exists if you have an adventure on a 1 hour time limit (or 5 hour time limit) in 4e, but there are still a great deal of situations in which the reduced resting time makes these shorter time limit adventures possible.

2. The "appropriate response problem". This one crops up most frequently for me in pre-packaged adventures. The PCs hit the bad guy, but need to retreat. The bad guy learns of the attack, realizes the PCs will be back, and has 24 hours to respond. There's a lot that the bad guy can do in 24 hours, particularly at high levels, and the PCs are generally going to be sufficiently low on resources that they will be vulnerable to a counter attack.

The 4e system does mitigate this problem somewhat by reducing the amount of prep time for the bad guy and vulnerable time for the PCs. I think this one is a little easier to play around because the PCs should be encouraged to find a safe place to rest and part of the fun of being a DM for me is planning responses to these raids. Still, the difference between a 24 hour response window and a 6 hour response window is fairly significant, so it does appear 4e addresses this problem to some extent.

3. The "overclocking problem". This is when the PCs drop down all their buffs and let the minutes/level spells determine how long they stay in the dungeon. As a result of this strategy, the players are much more powerful for the 3-5 encounters they hit, but are much weaker if hit at any other time.

I'm the most torn on this one, because part of me wants to say that it isn't a problem, it's good strategy on the PCs part. However, it does result in a lot of rushed games at my table, as the PCs push to move as fast as they can before the minutes/level spells expire and they are down to "normal" strength. This style also results in wizards shining because they effectively operate at maximum strength for these few encounters. The apparent elimination of minute/level buff spells seems to address this, as does the fact that the per day powers do not seem so over the top that the PCs are stupid to proceed, but ultimately, it's really hard to say at this point whether 4e has done anything on this issue. If players continue to use their per day powers to overclock during the first 3-5 encounters, not much has been done to resolve this problem.

Now, all of the above focuses entirely on the amount of time it takes to recharge. I also think the effectiveness window may be larger due to the elimination of the minute/level spells and that the incentive to move from encounter to encounter as quickly possible will be greatly decreased as a result. This should provide the PCs with more time to explore in non-combat encounters because they aren't always worried about their buffs winding down while they "waste" time doing non-combat things. However, the benefits of this larger window are more cosmetic than anything else.

Shadow Lodge

Sebastian wrote:
A good example is a recent adventure I ran where the PCs were out to save some children kidnapped by kobolds. The dungeon was sufficiently challenging that the PCs faced the dilemma - pull out and rest for 24 hours or press forward and risk death.

Excellent dilemma, especially if the character's brought it on themselves by mishandling a simple encounter. It is a little bit harsh if they suffered bad luck, but that too happens at times. I guess I don't see this decision is a problem that needs to be solved. Sometimes the bad guys win, that is why there are always bad guys. If every evil scheme failed, what would be the point in pursuing evil save for those for which reason did not apply (the criminally insane, for example). I certainly hope no rules edition ever allows the heroes to avoid being, well, heroic, and risking their lives for altruistic reasons.

Sebastian wrote:
A 24 hour time limit in 3e requires exceptional encounter preparation skills by the DM and exceptional resource management by the players. Granted, the same problem exists if you have an adventure on a 1 hour time limit (or 5 hour time limit) in 4e, but there are still a great deal of situations in which the reduced resting time makes these shorter time limit adventures possible.

The time limits are always under the control of the DM and/or the module writer. There is no difference (and I think you say this here) between "the kobolds kill the children at 9pm tonight" and "the kobolds kill the children at 9pm tomorrow night". Either one places the adventurers in a tight spot. I wouldn't run a "kill the children at 9pm tomorrow night" in a 4e setting - it gives the players far too much time and reduces the sense of urgency they will feel knowing they can potentially rest and recover two or three times before the fateful event any more than I would have the kobolds "kill the children at 9pm tonight" if the players could only rest once or not at all before then unless I wanted to run a very tight encounter. In short, changing the rest interval will not change the pressure felt by parties unless the modules also do not change. But given that the only reason a designer puts a time pressure into the module is to provide that as a challenge to the players, 4e will simply see the "moment of criticality" reduced in calender time to provide the party only the desired amount of prep/rest time. That is, if the designer is planning for allowing no rests, then it will happen 5 hours into the module in 4e and 23 hours into the module in 3e.

Sebastian wrote:

There's a lot that the bad guy can do in 24 hours, particularly at high levels, and the PCs are generally going to be sufficiently low on resources that they will be vulnerable to a counter attack.

The 4e system does mitigate this problem somewhat by reducing the amount of prep time for the bad guy and vulnerable time for the PCs. I think this one is a little easier to play around because the PCs should be encouraged to find a safe place to rest and part of the fun of being a DM for me is planning responses to these raids. Still, the difference between a 24 hour response window and a 6 hour response window is fairly significant, so it does appear 4e addresses this problem to some extent.

I am not sure this changes the amount of prep time for the bad guy; he has as much time to prepare as the party does. I can see that the BBEG's mooks will have less time to travel, build fortifications and whatnot (6hrs vs 24) before the party is ready for them, but the villain resets all of his powers too and has time to do plenty in their absence. As far as the PCs being vulnerable to a counterattack, if they are spent in 3e and spent in 4e, they will still be just as vulnerable to counterattack. How much time they have to rest is really not much of an issue, the villain knows he needs to have the attack happen sometime in the next 6 hours rather than the next 24.

Sebastian wrote:
If players continue to use their per day powers to overclock during the first 3-5 encounters, not much has been done to resolve this problem.

This is what I believe will happen unless the first few encounters are so easy (as Jason pointed out during DDX) that the party was a guaranteed win. My point is that DMs aren't, in practice, used to throwing essentially meaningless encounters at the party so they can conserve resources and therefore be in a strong position when they reach the BBEG. Instead the adventures I am familiar with press the party regularly and the party tends to use their powers to ensure victory in these battles, retreating when they are low on resources even though only 15 minutes have expired. I cannot see how this trend will do anything but continue in 4e.


ArchLich wrote:
He has played 4E and is commenting on his experiences. This statement claims that you have the expertise to judge his experience. How much experience do you have playing 4E?

First, I did play it a little, but that has nothing to do with my point.

This was their first play experience with 4th edition. The players are trying to understand how the basic rules work. It would be difficult to draw conclusions on the complexities of the system in your first couple of sessions. In fact, I've gamed with people in 3.5 who've been playing for a long time and still don't know or use some of the more in depth parts of the system. (Weather effects, terrain and travel being a few examples.)


Jenner2057 wrote:

Takasi, you are wrong.

In the adventure I played this weekend, the wizard's daily Sleep spell was the difference between us getting wiped out by a whole bunch of hobgoblins and winning the encounter.
In the final encounter of that same adventure, being able to one-shot the enemy caster with my daily Brute Strike (I was the dwarf fighter) made the difference in the fight.

Have you played in an encounter where you didn't use a daily power and ended up dying?

It just doesn't make any sense to say that 4th edition is more 'variable' and 'swingy' at first than 3rd edition. Characters have more hit points, and an evenly matched group lasts a few rounds. In 3rd edition an evenly matched group has a much better chance of killing someone in the very first round.

You have some people arguing that characters in 4th are too powerful. Are seriously countering that characters are so wimpy they need to use their daily powers every encounter just to survive? I find that incredibly hard to believe, based on my limited experience as well as looking at the numbers.


15 minutes day, 1 hour day...they should put back the role in the role playing game. I guess every, or at least 90% of all systems will boil down to this, if everything you do is fighting. Have interparty interaction, NPCs you can talk to, puzzles you could solve with your brains and you have a game where you can play a whole day and more (in-game time) with out resting. If you just want to do hack'n slash all the time, give your group a recovery stone with X charges, which refreshes all their HP, Spell, Mana or whatever, or just fast forward over the rest every time they need it, problem solved. Just my opinion, but if I read, 4ed is more about role playing again, because it feels different if I play an eladrin fighter or an elven fightet, because the elf can whatever and the eladrin fighter can teleport I get sick (and not because of the super-duper-teleport-power).

Sovereign Court

Sebastian wrote:


I'm the most torn on this one, because part of me wants to say that it isn't a problem, it's good strategy on the PCs part. However, it does result in a lot of rushed games at my table, as the PCs push to move as fast as they can before the minutes/level spells expire and they are down to "normal" strength. This style also results in wizards shining because they effectively operate at maximum strength for these few encounters. The apparent elimination of minute/level buff spells seems to address this, as does the fact that the per day powers do not seem so over the top that the PCs are stupid to proceed, but ultimately, it's really hard to say at this point whether 4e has done anything on this issue. If players continue to use their per day powers to overclock during the first 3-5 encounters, not much has been done to resolve this problem.

Good and constructive post, it should show some people what debate is about.

I am surprised that this point has not been brought before, but has this problem not happened because of buff spells lasting in ROUNDS in 3.5 while they were in MINUTES or HOURS in 3.0 ?

Go back to 3.0 and that point is solved. See, no need for a new edition ...

The Exchange

Belfur wrote:
15 minutes day, 1 hour day...they should put back the role in the role playing game. I guess every, or at least 90% of all systems will boil down to this, if everything you do is fighting. Have interparty interaction, NPCs you can talk to, puzzles you could solve with your brains and you have a game where you can play a whole day and more (in-game time) with out resting. If you just want to do hack'n slash all the time, give your group a recovery stone with X charges, with refreshes all their HP, Spell, Mana or whatever, or just fast forward over the rest every time they need it, problem solved. Just my opinion, but if I read, 4ed is more about role playing again, because it feels different if I play an eladrin fighter or an elven fightet, because the elf can whatever and the eladrin fighter can teleport I get sick (and not because of the super-duper-teleport-power).

I don't see how role playing is missing from 4E. It will still have interparty interaction, you can still talk to NPCs, there is always room for puzzels, and you can play the whole day without resting just like 3.5. The fact that you can use a 5 minute rest, or a 6 hour rest is actually more flexible than the overnight or 24 hour rest time in 3.5.

Is there something that you are seeing that i am not?

Dark Archive

That's true. If you go back to 3.0 durations, you don't have to worry about overclocking, and it even reduces the "Christmas tree" effect because you can use your buffs instead of relying on stat-boosting items.


crosswiredmind wrote:
Belfur wrote:
15 minutes day, 1 hour day...they should put back the role in the role playing game. I guess every, or at least 90% of all systems will boil down to this, if everything you do is fighting. Have interparty interaction, NPCs you can talk to, puzzles you could solve with your brains and you have a game where you can play a whole day and more (in-game time) with out resting. If you just want to do hack'n slash all the time, give your group a recovery stone with X charges, with refreshes all their HP, Spell, Mana or whatever, or just fast forward over the rest every time they need it, problem solved. Just my opinion, but if I read, 4ed is more about role playing again, because it feels different if I play an eladrin fighter or an elven fightet, because the elf can whatever and the eladrin fighter can teleport I get sick (and not because of the super-duper-teleport-power).

I don't see how role playing is missing from 4E. It will still have interparty interaction, you can still talk to NPCs, there is always room for puzzels, and you can play the whole day without resting just like 3.5. The fact that you can use a 5 minute rest, or a 6 hour rest is actually more flexible than the overnight or 24 hour rest time in 3.5.

Is there something that you are seeing that i am not?

If I'm not mistaken, Belfur was not taking about specifically 4E. I think he was saying that it is the DM/GM job to provide meaningful gameplay even if the characters are currently low(er) on combat power.


crosswiredmind wrote:


I don't see how role playing is missing from 4E. It will still have interparty interaction, you can still talk to NPCs, there is always room for puzzels, and you can play the whole day without resting just like 3.5. The fact that you can use a 5 minute rest, or a 6 hour rest is actually more flexible than the overnight or 24 hour rest time in 3.5.

Is there something that you are seeing that i am not?

Sure there are good things in 4e, too, but it seems to me that its more and more about fighting and that the "role" is not a good in-character performance, but a good in-battle performance.

Maybe I just overstated this. In fact, I also like the 5 min rest and the healing surges. A 6 hour rest period does not seem very realistic to me, people need to sleep, where would all the "you are all still asleep" jokes and good raids at the camp site storys come from. By the way, is this 6 hours rest whenever, or is it 6 hours every day. If it is whenever, you could just also make it a 1 hour rest, then your characters can keep going for a very long time. Well it stays like it was, I want to see the complete system, before I judge if it is good.

The Exchange

ArchLich wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Belfur was not taking about specifically 4E. I think he was saying that it is the DM/GM job to provide meaningful gameplay even if the characters are currently low(er) on combat power.

Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with this. The adventure is what the adventure is - if the clock is ticking and the party used too many spells before they could rescue the captive/close the portal to the abyss/whatever then is it up to the DM to change the game so that they can get through to the end of the mod?


ArchLich wrote:


If I'm not mistaken, Belfur was not taking about specifically 4E. I think he was saying that it is the DM/GM job to provide meaningful gameplay even if the characters are currently low(er) on combat power.

Thanks for the clarification :-)

The Exchange

In original edition and AD&D class was all about role in combat. Role playing was an afterthought and yet it happened anyway. You can role play with any set of rules.


crosswiredmind wrote:
ArchLich wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Belfur was not taking about specifically 4E. I think he was saying that it is the DM/GM job to provide meaningful gameplay even if the characters are currently low(er) on combat power.
Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with this. The adventure is what the adventure is - if the clock is ticking and the party used too many spells before they could rescue the captive/close the portal to the abyss/whatever then is it up to the DM to change the game so that they can get through to the end of the mod?

In this case it is not the DM's job, but if he creates an adventure, the players just cannot make it through with one set of resources, it is unfair of him to set a timer, they could not beat. If the players are making mistakes, then they have to live with them, either by entering combat with low resources, or by e.g. risking the hostages lives. And as I said, it should not all be about combat, IMHO.


crosswiredmind wrote:
In original edition and AD&D class was all about role in combat. Role playing was an afterthought and yet it happened anyway. You can role play with any set of rules.

We can agree on this.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Lich-Loved, the only thing I would add is that taking a 6 hour break is generally more forgiving than a 24 hour break. This is particularly important because most adventures don't have an absolute deadline like "if you don't stop the kobolds, they will kill the kids at midnight", but instead tend to be of the nature of "if you don't stop the kobolds, they will kill the kids." Taking a 6 hour break is normally within the realm of reasonable, particularly with a fuzzy timeline.

Similarly, as you note, the ability to reinforce (or leave town even) is much less significant in a 6 hour block than a 24 hour block. The problem still exists, but reducing the recharge time makes a significant difference.

Of course that being said...

Stereofm wrote:


I am surprised that this point has not been brought before, but has this problem not happened because of buff spells lasting in ROUNDS in 3.5 while they were in MINUTES or HOURS in 3.0 ?

Go back to 3.0 and that point is solved. See, no need for a new edition ...

There also isn't any reason a shorter recharge could not be brought into 3.5 (or extend durations if you prefer). One house rule I was toying with recently was having minutes/level spells last for 1 encounter per every 3 caster levels. That could help too.

I am sorely tempted to implement the 6 hour recharge in my 3.5 campaign, including the full heal option. It would allow the cleric some leeway to do some crazy stuff (maybe too crazy, but it might be fun enough to try).


Sebastian wrote:
Lich-Loved, the only thing I would add is that taking a 6 hour break is generally more forgiving than a 24 hour break.

But the 3e mandate is a 9 hour break. It's really not that different.

In 4e a Wizard can squeeze off 4 sets of daily powers in his 20 minute work day. In third edition he could set off 3 sets of daily powers in his 15 minute work day.

-Frank

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Frank Trollman wrote:

But the 3e mandate is a 9 hour break. It's really not that different.

No. Per day abilities and divine spells require 24 hours to refresh in 3e. The 9 hour break only resets the wizard/sorc.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013

Frank Trollman wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Lich-Loved, the only thing I would add is that taking a 6 hour break is generally more forgiving than a 24 hour break.

But the 3e mandate is a 9 hour break. It's really not that different.

In 4e a Wizard can squeeze off 4 sets of daily powers in his 20 minute work day. In third edition he could set off 3 sets of daily powers in his 15 minute work day.

You can only regain spell slots once per day in 3rd edition, even if you sleep more than once.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber
Takasi wrote:
Have you played in an encounter where you didn't use a daily power and ended up dying?

Yup. Sure have.

Second to last encounter in "Escape from Sembia" was with some skeletons being led by a flaming skeleton. The flaming skeleton kept hitting our cleric with his "throw burning something" attack (I don't know what he was actually throwing or the actual name - sorry) and setting him on fire (the poor cleric couldn't make a 50/50 save all afternoon so just kept burning...). I ran up and - hoping to save my daily Brute Strike power - did a "normal" at-will cleave attack against the flaming skeleton and the skeleton next to him.

Result: the flaming skeleton was only "bloodied" and triggered his immediate bloodied power of cutting loose with an area flame attack. This dropped me to -8 (I'd been hit by the other skeletons while our cleric was repeatedly being set on fire). Next round the ranger shoots the flaming skeleton killing it and triggering its death throe area flame attack and knocking me well into the neg 20's.
If I'd just squashed him flat with my daily instead of trying to conserve, we only would have had one flame burst to deal with.
(Insidently, the DM "poofed" me back to life for the final encounter since it was just a preview adventure).

Takasi wrote:
You have some people arguing that characters in 4th are too powerful. Are seriously countering that characters are so wimpy they need to use their daily powers every encounter just to survive? I find that incredibly hard to believe, based on my limited experience as well as looking at the numbers.

I never said that. I'm just saying that daily powers ARE powerful and CAN make the difference in an encounter. Don't be so dismissive of them. It wouldn't surprise me at all if cautious parties wanted to go into every encounter with their full compliment of daily powers.

Especially when they might not know what their opponents can do...
...such as use area flame attacks immediately...
...twice... :)

-J

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Russ Taylor wrote:
Frank Trollman wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Lich-Loved, the only thing I would add is that taking a 6 hour break is generally more forgiving than a 24 hour break.

But the 3e mandate is a 9 hour break. It's really not that different.

In 4e a Wizard can squeeze off 4 sets of daily powers in his 20 minute work day. In third edition he could set off 3 sets of daily powers in his 15 minute work day.

You can only regain spell slots once per day in 3rd edition, even if you sleep more than once.

Do you have an on-point cite for that? It seems like one of those perenial message board topics like critting on a Ray of Enfeeblement that comes and goes all the time because the rules are vague.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013

Sebastian wrote:
Do you have an on-point cite for that? It seems like one of those perenial message board topics like critting on a Ray of Enfeeblement that comes and goes all the time because the rules are vague.

Jut the numerous uses of "daily" in the Magic Overview chapter and the "Spells per Day" entry in the classes. It wouldn't be a daily limit if you could prepare more than once.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

Sebastian wrote:
Do you have an on-point cite for that? It seems like one of those perenial message board topics like critting on a Ray of Enfeeblement that comes and goes all the time because the rules are vague.

I don't consider the term 'daily' or 'per day' vague at all.

Shadow Lodge

Sebastian wrote:

There also isn't any reason a shorter recharge could not be brought into 3.5 (or extend durations if you prefer). One house rule I was toying with recently was having minutes/level spells last for 1 encounter per every 3 caster levels. That could help too.

I am sorely tempted to implement the 6 hour recharge in my 3.5 campaign, including the full heal option. It would allow the cleric some leeway to do some crazy stuff (maybe too crazy, but it might be fun enough to try).

I think this is going to be a great aspect of 4e. There are a lot of good rules in 4e taken piecemeal, or kernals of rule ideas at least, though we as a whole may disagree on their implementation. I can't wait to see what great things I might be able to hork from the 4e rules to make my 3.5 game better.

And, I agree with you on the "kobolds killing the kids" thing and 6 hours of off-task/rest time being more "tolerable" (for lack of a better word) than 24 hours but:

"Jenner2057 wrote:

I'm just saying that daily powers ARE powerful and CAN make the difference in an encounter. Don't be so dismissive of them. It wouldn't surprise me at all if cautious parties wanted to go into every encounter with their full compliment of daily powers.

Especially when they might not know what their opponents can do...
...such as use area flame attacks immediately...
...twice... :)

is where my belief still lies. In fact, I am more concerned now that everyone is essentially a wizard with "per day" abilities similar to the 3.5e wizard's top-end spells for his level. Will we see things like:

Wizard: "That was a great fight! Let's follow the map we found to the room that looks like it is filled with coffins..."

Fighter: "I dunno I used my Ultra-Cleave of Death just now to save your butt. My other powers just weren't cutting it and I had to do something."

Wizard: "Cmon I still have my Gnomish Death Ray ability ready."

Rogue: "No the fighter is right, I had to burn Wire-fu #7 to gain combat advantage and help out the cleric - it's the only decent thing that lets me help you guys when fighting those beasts and if we run into more of 'em, we will all go down unless I am there to help out."

Wizard: "You mean we can't adventure because you guys are out of your best powers now!?"

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

*shrug* People disagree on this topic all the time due to the entry in the magic overview section:

SRD wrote:


Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Every group I've ever played in has interpreted this paragraph to mean that the "daily" spells can be refreshed by 8 hours of sleep. I've seen people take both sides on this debate, so barring an actual cite to a rule that reconciles the two concepts, it is indeed vague and there is no settled answer.

Edit: The D&D FAQ also mentions under the entry for the ring of sustenance that the wizard needs to rest 8 hours to regain spells. The answer to the question about how often the cleric can refresh spells also points to a contrast between the two classes. As far as I know, there's enough evidence to interpert the matter either way, but if anyone has an actual in black and white rules quotation that settles the matter, I'd be interested in hearing it. Arguments that it is the only logical conclusion from the text as it stands are wrong.


Lich-Loved wrote:

In fact, I am more concerned now that everyone is essentially a wizard with "per day" abilities similar to the 3.5e wizard's top-end spells for his level. Will we see things like:

Wizard: "That was a great fight! Let's follow the map we found to the room that looks like it is filled with coffins..."

Fighter: "I dunno I used my Ultra-Cleave of Death just now to save your butt. My other powers just weren't cutting it and I had to do something."

Wizard: "Cmon I still have my Gnomish Death Ray ability ready."

Rogue: "No the fighter is right, I had to burn Wire-fu #7 to gain combat advantage and help out the cleric - it's the only decent thing that lets me help you guys when fighting those beasts and if we run into more of 'em, we will all go down unless I am there to help out."

Wizard: "You mean we can't adventure because you guys are out of your best powers now!?"

If that happens, it would almost be worth the new addition just for the irony of that situation.


ArchLich wrote:
Lich-Loved wrote:

In fact, I am more concerned now that everyone is essentially a wizard with "per day" abilities similar to the 3.5e wizard's top-end spells for his level. Will we see things like:

Wizard: "That was a great fight! Let's follow the map we found to the room that looks like it is filled with coffins..."

Fighter: "I dunno I used my Ultra-Cleave of Death just now to save your butt. My other powers just weren't cutting it and I had to do something."

Wizard: "Cmon I still have my Gnomish Death Ray ability ready."

Rogue: "No the fighter is right, I had to burn Wire-fu #7 to gain combat advantage and help out the cleric - it's the only decent thing that lets me help you guys when fighting those beasts and if we run into more of 'em, we will all go down unless I am there to help out."

Wizard: "You mean we can't adventure because you guys are out of your best powers now!?"

If that happens, it would almost be worth the new addition just for the irony of that situation.

I can hear the cries of REVENGE! from all the martial players now.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

crosswiredmind wrote:
Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with this. The adventure is what the adventure is - if the clock is ticking and the party used too many spells before they could rescue the captive/close the portal to the abyss/whatever then is it up to the DM to change the game so that they can get through to the end of the mod?

hi, CWM.

I responded to this in a seperate thread, because I don't think it's a 4th Edition issue.


Three words, folks!

4th Edition Revised (aka 4.5e)

Thank you.

*Minor threadcrap, but I believe it iterates my point with how WotC is handling D&D...the edition isn't out yet and already we see mistakes that , obviously, will be revised (markers, anyone?)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Takasi wrote:
ArchLich wrote:
He has played 4E and is commenting on his experiences. This statement claims that you have the expertise to judge his experience. How much experience do you have playing 4E?

First, I did play it a little, but that has nothing to do with my point.

This was their first play experience with 4th edition. The players are trying to understand how the basic rules work. It would be difficult to draw conclusions on the complexities of the system in your first couple of sessions. In fact, I've gamed with people in 3.5 who've been playing for a long time and still don't know or use some of the more in depth parts of the system. (Weather effects, terrain and travel being a few examples.)

but yet you feel confident to do so with no more experience than anyone else. Hmmm....

Perhaps what you meant to say was "It would be difficult for someone to convince me that their criticism of 4ed is valid unless they have signed notes from each of the lead designers and a time card indicating 40+ hours of play."

lets play nice, ehh?


Russ Taylor wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Do you have an on-point cite for that? It seems like one of those perenial message board topics like critting on a Ray of Enfeeblement that comes and goes all the time because the rules are vague.
Jut the numerous uses of "daily" in the Magic Overview chapter and the "Spells per Day" entry in the classes. It wouldn't be a daily limit if you could prepare more than once.

Heck, the 4th edition "Daily" powers are usable every time you get 6 hours of rest. The 3rd edition powers are usable every time you get 8 hours of rest and one hour to prepare.

The fact that they use the word "Daily" repeatedly in both the 3rd edition and 4th edition rules does not mean that they are usable only once in a 24 hour period.

What do you think they mean? Calendar days (reusable 5 minutes apart at 11:57 PM and 12:02 AM); 24 hours between uses (thus only usable twice in three days as their is an enforced day of non-use in between a day of use); or perhaps what the rules actually say, which is that you have to rest for eight hours before you can again use your daily abilities (and then must study for an hour to regain Wizardry, meditate for 15 minutes to regain Bardic Magic, etc)?

The fact that they use the word "daily" means absolutely nothing. They use the word "daily" in 4th edition as well. These are game terms which mean exactly what they say that they mean and not other things.

-Frank

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013

Don't buy it. Divine casters are restricted to daily spell prep in 3rd ed(due to having to choose a preparation time), and I don't buy that arcane get a better deal.

Personally, I'm not convinced you can take more than one extended rest a day in 4th edition either.

For me, this falls into the "things so obvious they didn't reiterate them" category. It'll take finding something that says you *can* do it to convince me.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

In third edition, it is never specified that daily means anything other than its English meaning: 8 hours of rest is an additional requirement, on top of the restriction of once per day.


Russ Taylor wrote:


For me, this falls into the "things so obvious they didn't reiterate them" category. It'll take finding something that says you *can* do it to convince me.

Can we copy/paste sections from the Chameleon Class from Races of Destiny onto this board or is that a Copyright violation?

-Frank

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