What's the point of Black Magga?


Rise of the Runelords

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Would RotRL suffer if I get rid of Black Magga entirely? I could say that the ogres managed to break the dam and then I wouldn't have to deal with her entirely. She seems like an encounter that would easily degenerate into a TPK and would leave veryone going "WTF? What was the point of that?" Opinions?

Contributor

Arctaris wrote:
Would RotRL suffer if I get rid of Black Magga entirely? I could say that the ogres managed to break the dam and then I wouldn't have to deal with her entirely. She seems like an encounter that would easily degenerate into a TPK and would leave veryone going "WTF? What was the point of that?" Opinions?

You could definitely cut her. But she's loads of fun if you build her up real dramatic like. In the proto-playtesting I did for Hook, I made sure the PCs knew the Lockness-like tales of Black Magga long before they even got to the Hook Mountain region. When the floods started, I let them know the cause right away, and one of the players was like "What if something else came over the dam with the flood water..." They were freaked as hell about Magga and enjoyed battling her. Though, you are right, she could easily destroy-a-f%@@ a party. In my original it's possible to collapse the cathedral on her and she get's swept away in the debris, rather than have to duke it out with her. Kind of like a fun boss fight in God of War. You could go that route if you like.


Nicolas Logue wrote:
Kind of like a fun boss fight in God of War. You could go that route if you like.

... so all my players have to do is roll random combinations of X, O, [], and A (for lack of a triangle), in exactly the correct order and at exactly the correct time, without making any errors... and they can win?

woo. I'm a little underwhelmed. [/kidding]

But really, I loved God of War (II, not so much...) and I like the idea of Black Magga being a dynamic fight instead of a '# of hp = # of attacks per round' battle. I'm curious, though, what kind of mechanics would you use for a battle like this?

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Blue_eyed_paladin wrote:
Nicolas Logue wrote:
Kind of like a fun boss fight in God of War. You could go that route if you like.

... so all my players have to do is roll random combinations of X, O, [], and A (for lack of a triangle), in exactly the correct order and at exactly the correct time, without making any errors... and they can win?

woo. I'm a little underwhelmed. [/kidding]

But really, I loved God of War (II, not so much...) and I like the idea of Black Magga being a dynamic fight instead of a '# of hp = # of attacks per round' battle. I'm curious, though, what kind of mechanics would you use for a battle like this?

I gave hints that the structure was weakening under the strain of the flood (they we're rebuilding the support struts before the flood happened so the entire cathedral was in shambles anyways). It leaned and groaned heavily under the strain of the rushing deluge. Then I let PCs make a DC 20 Intelligence or Knowledge (architecture and engineering) or Search check to notice only three beams were keeping the massive stone roof and upper levels aloft. So they lured Magga inside (using one of themselves as bait) and destroyed the beams to drop the cathedral on her. She was washed downriver into Lake Coal or Claybottom (can't remember which one was south of the town).

EDIT: Oh, does God of War II suck? I was thinking of picking it up (I LOVED God of War) but based on your above comment I may need to read some reviews before my wallet flies in blind! Thanks for the heads up!


My players would never think of that. I'm afraid that the poor bastards strategy tends to revolve around just standing there and duking it out with a foe. I'll have to cut Black Magga or I'll probably have a TPK on my hands (not that TPKs arent fun, but it would bugger things up and make my life a lot harder). It would be pretty cool though. Thanks for the insight Nick.


I don't think collapsing the cathedral is a great choice, (with the advetnrue as written anyway) IIRC isn't the whole point of having to fight the beastie the fact there is a bunch of kids trapped in the cathedral?

Sovereign Court

I'm actually thinking that one day, in a distant future, when I get to run Rise of the Runelords for my group, that this will be an extremely fun encounter!

Especially given a certain monster film that has recently come out in theatres:

Spoiler:
Black Magga really makes me think of the monster from Cloverfield, and I'm thinking of playing it as such: a big brute that is destroying buildings and crushing random townspeople unless the PCs distract it for a bit. I'm thinking my party will enjoy this scene.

Nicolas Logue wrote:
Oh, does God of War II suck? I was thinking of picking it up (I LOVED God of War) but based on your above comment I may need to read some reviews before my wallet flies in blind! Thanks for the heads up!

I can say that I enjoyed God of War II more than God of War I, personally. I especially like the layout of the areas you discover, and it has a really epic feel.

This sums up GoWII pretty well:
Good God!

In fact, that would be a fun encounter in D&D... hmm.

Contributor

Greedy_Smurf wrote:
I don't think collapsing the cathedral is a great choice, (with the advetnrue as written anyway) IIRC isn't the whole point of having to fight the beastie the fact there is a bunch of kids trapped in the cathedral?

Nope. The kids are trapped in a boat up against the General Store sign I believe.

In my original manuscript there were some sick patients trapped in the cathedral, and the PCs (in my playtest) had to get them out of there before they collapsed the cathedral. It was pretty fun, cause there was a lot of crazy timing and tension involved. Good times.


The adventure as shipped mentions that the cathedral is occupied by people that can't just leave with Black Magga attacking.

IMC, I'm going to have the PCs race Black Magga down the river to Turtleback Ferry. Gives me the opportunity to do something a little more dramatic than usual, and makes her into a much longer and hopefully more fun encounter without making her even more of a giant sack of hitpoints.

Contributor

Zurai wrote:
The adventure as shipped mentions that the cathedral is occupied by people that can't just leave with Black Magga attacking.

Yep! I was talking about my first draft. Once the cathedral toppling went away, it was more interesting to defend it against Magga.

Zurai wrote:


IMC, I'm going to have the PCs race Black Magga down the river to Turtleback Ferry. Gives me the opportunity to do something a little more dramatic than usual, and makes her into a much longer and hopefully more fun encounter without making her even more of a giant sack of hitpoints.

This is a great idea!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I described the encounter to my player and said "I don't think so, do you?" and the player said "NO!" So I left Magga in the Storval Deeps. The PCs got a look at her through a scrying mirror later and were impressed and disturbed.

The cathedral collapse is a gorgeous image but he doesn't think his PCs would have tried it; too easy for Magga simply to move away. (And without Fly they couldn't have been in position anyway, though that's not true for most parties by this point.) So it would have been a standup fight against something the PCs can't hurt, which is not his idea of fun. Or they run, meaning that everything they've done to save Turtleback Ferry was wasted, or the plotline gets put on hold while they try to recruit allies to take Magga out.

It also seems like a waste to put a scheming, political monster in a scenario that makes her look like a giant squid. (Though there's a long tradition in D&D, for some reason, of Machiavellian sea monsters which are really tough to use in scenarios....)

In any case, leaving her out does not do any harm later as far as I can tell (have read through #5).

Mary

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Leaving Black Magga out doesn't do any harm to the rest of the campaign at all. She's mostly a "flavor" encounter and part of the "we should go fix the dam" stuff. In fact... I DID consider cutting her out of the adventure, since we didn't have a map of Turtleback Ferry (which we should have, but whatever) and without a map, encounters there are a lot more difficult to run, but by that point we'd already paid for the half-page illustration of her attacking the town, making cutting that particular encounter way too expensive a cut.

So in the end, yeah, the Black Magga stuff is incidental to the overall plot of Rise of the Runelords, but not every single encounter needs to push the main plotline forward. That's also part of the same reason we went into such detail on other "side trek" style adventures like the Graul homestead or (in Pathfinder 6) the Vekker Cabin. Sometimes, building on the world's flavor is just as important as building the adventure's story.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I ended up running her as a twelve-headed cryohydra instead. Still dangerous enough to be dangerous and very tough to kill outright--but the PCs can actually do it some damage in return, so it has an actual reason to leave after four rounds. Black Magga's defenses are so high that the players won't be dealing it any appreciable damage, and it's more than intelligent to realize it. I like the idea of an encounter where the players just have to survive for a while, but Black Magga has no compelling reason to break off its attack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For my game, Black Magga was really more of a 'WTF? Ahhh! Get it off! Get it off!' sort of encounter for the players. They finally did enough damage to make her leave, but now they've got plans building to hunt her down with whatever mercenaries they can hire, plus as many Hellknights as they can rope into the mix (because, oddly enough, the party regards the Hellknights as far prefferable to Magga, and the Hellknights are all about eliminating things like her from the world.


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Arctaris wrote:
My players would never think of that. I'm afraid that the poor bastards strategy tends to revolve around just standing there and duking it out with a foe. I'll have to cut Black Magga or I'll probably have a TPK on my hands (not that TPKs arent fun, but it would bugger things up and make my life a lot harder). It would be pretty cool though. Thanks for the insight Nick.

Do leave her in! It will be educational. The "we cannot always win everything" lesson needs to be taught sooner or later. (Or both sooner AND later >:) )


The is now a great map of Turtleback, flooded and dry versions, in the community created stuff thread. I love how the Pathfinder APs actually mature and become more playable as 1000 GMs push their way through.

As for Black Magga, I use her as proof that CR in my game is a normal probability distribution, not a sorting algorithm of evil.

I am running this encounter next session, in fact. I fully expect the players to be overwhelmed. Running is always an option, although my group needed a few fatalities before they realized this.


Ugh. Black Magga kicked our collective ass. We had no build-up and she just came out of nowhere. In retrospect, some foreshadowing would have been good. We really had no effective way to deal with her. It essentially came down to trying to distract her with missile fire while other PCs rescued villagers trapped by the flood. The way our DM played it, we just got beat on awhile, then she got bored toying with us and left.

We'd probably be thinking about payback later, if we weren't up to our eyeballs in a Runelord's awakening... We're taking a break from the campaign at the moment, having hit a major down-note.

Spoiler:
Lost a PC to the succubus in the Lust portion of the Runeforge as part of a deal gone bad. Both paladins have been stripped of their powers as a result.


Shadowborn wrote:
Ugh. Black Magga kicked our collective ass. We had no build-up and she just came out of nowhere. In retrospect, some foreshadowing would have been good. We really had no effective way to deal with her. It essentially came down to trying to distract her with missile fire while other PCs rescued villagers trapped by the flood. The way our DM played it, we just got beat on awhile, then she got bored toying with us and left.

Go easy on your GM, Shadowborn. He basically played it as written.

There isn't really any foreshadowing at all written into the module (as published). She quite literally comes out of nowhere.

I had the time and foresight to include some foreshadowing in the form of crude drawings found in the Graul Homestead (and idea I stole from these forums) — and when a PC died at Jagraath's hook I worked Magga into the new PC's back story.

If I was more rushed, I would have run it just as you describe, because that's how it is in the book.


I didn't mean to sound as if I was slamming the way the DM ran it. The general sense I meant to convey was that it wasn't a fun encounter from a player's perspective. Yes, we saved the villagers, but more due to Magga losing interest than from our own efforts.


Shadowborn wrote:
I didn't mean to sound as if I was slamming the way the DM ran it. The general sense I meant to convey was that it wasn't a fun encounter from a player's perspective. Yes, we saved the villagers, but more due to Magga losing interest than from our own efforts.

That has been the only complaint so far by my players and we are over half-way into the AP. It was out of the blue, way overpowered, and it wasn't an instance of running away as it was in the village.

I basically had it leave being bored. If I did it again I think I would either leave it out or power it down some. (make it hard, but not quite so hard)


Our DM made her scurry back as the waters drew out of the town from the initial swell. Second round in he said "you notice the waters that had been chest deep a moment before have receded below your waste" so we had some sort of an idea mid fight that maybe this was a "wait it out" situation.


So the preferred methods of GMing this encounter seem to be:

  • a little foreshadowing

  • alternative attacks like dropping a church on her

  • clue them in to the fact that it is a limited-time fight.


  • Evil Lincoln wrote:

    So the preferred methods of GMing this encounter seem to be:

  • a little foreshadowing

  • alternative attacks like dropping a church on her

  • clue them in to the fact that it is a limited-time fight.
  • I like the limited time fight scenario. Mix that in with the PCs having to save people from her or keep her distracted enough that most of the villagers can flee and you have an unusual and interesting scenario which the PCs can 'win' but not by the routine method of killing the bad nasty. Dropping the cathedral on her might be included here as well as a kind of 'higher' victory for players that figure it out while not otherwise denying them any chance to accomplish something in the encounter.

    Paizo Employee CEO

    My group tried to keep Black Magga distracted while they save the villagers. However, the cleric of Cayden Cailean, in a bit of drunken bravado, flew out toward Black Magga and successfully did a Smite Evil on her. Beat the SR, she missed her save, and then the ranger critted, and they actually chased her off. She was lucky to get out of there with her life intact! The players were pissed that she got away. :) So it isn't impossible to beat her, just unlikely.

    -Lisa


    I'm almost up to this point with my adventure group. But the problem I forsee is convincing them to go down to the village instead of up to the damn.

    I'm almost certain that me players will go directly to the source of the rising water problem... Skull's Crossing.

    Any suggestions?

    Ultradan


    Lisa Stevens wrote:

    My group tried to keep Black Magga distracted while they save the villagers. However, the cleric of Cayden Cailean, in a bit of drunken bravado, flew out toward Black Magga and successfully did a Smite Evil on her. Beat the SR, she missed her save, and then the ranger critted, and they actually chased her off. She was lucky to get out of there with her life intact! The players were pissed that she got away. :) So it isn't impossible to beat her, just unlikely.

    -Lisa

    See, now that's cool. Unfortunately we weren't so lucky. As a paladin of Erastil, I can smite with my longbow, but the dice weren't on my side that day...just wasn't hitting the numbers to get through her ugly hide.


    Ultradan wrote:

    I'm almost up to this point with my adventure group. But the problem I forsee is convincing them to go down to the village instead of up to the damn.

    I'm almost certain that me players will go directly to the source of the rising water problem... Skull's Crossing.

    Any suggestions?

    Ultradan

    You could try something as simple as the PCs encountering a boatload of villagers on their way. The boat could be loaded to capacity, and the villagers beg the party to help those left behind before the waters rise and sweep them away.


    My group hasn't gotten there yet, but how does everyone deal with the fact that the group of characters can't possibly get to the villiage before the flash flood hits? As the adventure is written, they see Black Magga go over the top of the dam and down the river, which is supposed to spur them into action. By this point it is already too late. Without some teleportation magic they just aren't going to get there in time to be of any serious help. If I'm not mistaken it's at least a couple miles from the dam down to Turtleback Ferry and nobody is going to outrun the water. Am I wrong here?


    Delthos wrote:
    My group hasn't gotten there yet, but how does everyone deal with the fact that the group of characters can't possibly get to the villiage before the flash flood hits? As the adventure is written, they see Black Magga go over the top of the dam and down the river, which is supposed to spur them into action. By this point it is already too late. Without some teleportation magic they just aren't going to get there in time to be of any serious help. If I'm not mistaken it's at least a couple miles from the dam down to Turtleback Ferry and nobody is going to outrun the water. Am I wrong here?

    I changed the order of how things happened.

    Spoiler:
    First they arrive in Turtleback Ferry and the dam breaks

    Second they investigate why it broke

    Third on the way back they run into Jakardros' Bear and they do the Grauls

    After that they attack the fort.

    It seemed to flow better that way, in my head at least.


    Shadowborn wrote:
    You could try something as simple as the PCs encountering a boatload of villagers on their way. The boat could be loaded to capacity, and the villagers beg the party to help those left behind before the waters rise and sweep them away.

    Ah man, I've come up with something incredible. I'm introducing a new PC in the group in my next game (the group just finished the first level of the keep and fought Lucrecia)... So when they come back up, they meet this DWARF CLERIC that's strolling through the massacre on the first floor (this is the new PC).

    This cleric will have a special gift in that he receives a short cryptic riddle from his God (sort of like a permanent Divination spell that manifested periodically since he was young). His last divine message told him :

    "Bring the giant slayer to the turtles's back,
    Only then can you prevent the attack.
    Up the mountain to the keep abandoned,
    There you'll serve until by the fey you're summonned."

    So this PC finds his way to Turtleback Ferry and learns of Fort Rannick, so he heads up there and finds the courtyard a bloody mess of ogres and humans. So he casts a Locate Object spell to find a "Giant Bane" weapon and zeros-in on the PC ranger who weilds one. The group now finishes off the fort, and the cleric then pushes the PCs to head back to Turtleback Ferry as soon as possible. There the flood and fight with Black Magga happens then they can head up to the dam to see what caused the sudden rush of water.

    And it also gives him a reason to stay around for a while (until Yap shows up). The the adventure continues!

    Brilliant if I do say so myself.

    Ultradan


    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Before ragging on your players for fighting something they should have run from, better check with them; they may feel that running away will break the scenario, and thus avoid it out of courtesy to the GM. If you punish your players for being courteous in this way, they are likely to take it badly.

    If you want PCs to run away from too-hard fights, you'll need to make it clear to the players that this is allowed and will not break the adventure. And you'll need to make sure that that's true, because frankly, if my group had felt free to run from anything too hard for them, they would not have done most of #2 and large parts of #3 and #4, and I'm not sure how I would have recovered from that.

    A game where the PCs can avoid anything that they don't want to do is a very different game, and it's going to require adjustment by the GM. Most APs do not seem to be designed for this. I have seen two _Shackled City_ campaigns (same GM, different players) and in both cases the PCs would naturally have refused two whole modules, of course breaking the level-advancement expectations as well as gutting the plot. The players chose to go along in order to help out the GM, and got put through the meatgrinder as a result. I don't think this is wise. If the players have to help out the GM, the GM ought to help out the players as well.

    Paizo Employee CEO

    Shadowborn wrote:
    Lisa Stevens wrote:

    My group tried to keep Black Magga distracted while they save the villagers. However, the cleric of Cayden Cailean, in a bit of drunken bravado, flew out toward Black Magga and successfully did a Smite Evil on her. Beat the SR, she missed her save, and then the ranger critted, and they actually chased her off. She was lucky to get out of there with her life intact! The players were pissed that she got away. :) So it isn't impossible to beat her, just unlikely.

    -Lisa

    See, now that's cool. Unfortunately we weren't so lucky. As a paladin of Erastil, I can smite with my longbow, but the dice weren't on my side that day...just wasn't hitting the numbers to get through her ugly hide.

    There were a lot of converts to Cayden that day. And the cleric became a bit of a folk hero locally. It was actually the first heroic thing he did all campaign to that point! Now he is a bit cocky and will probably get into trouble for it, but he hasn't yet. :)

    -Lisa

    Paizo Employee CEO

    Ultradan wrote:

    I'm almost up to this point with my adventure group. But the problem I forsee is convincing them to go down to the village instead of up to the damn.

    I'm almost certain that me players will go directly to the source of the rising water problem... Skull's Crossing.

    Any suggestions?

    Ultradan

    I made sure that our group spent some time getting to know the villagers, so when the town started to flood, one of the friends they made came up to the fort and begged the characters to come to town and help evacuate the trapped. They couldn't resist a plea from the villagers. :)

    -Lisa

    Sovereign Court

    Lisa Stevens wrote:


    I made sure that our group spent some time getting to know the villagers, so when the town started to flood, one of the friends they made came up to the fort and begged the characters to come to town and help evacuate the trapped. They couldn't resist a plea from the villagers. :)

    -Lisa

    My PCs made contacts in town as well, so when one of the locals the dwarfs drank with after almost getting eaten by giant gar while trying to investigate the sunken river barge/gaming house, they rode on down. They actually managed to get in one hit on Black Magga ... however, they have also been hit with confusion on a few occasions during the campaign, so when the first PC failed their save and got hit with Confusion, their initial bravado diminished a bit.

    And yes, they do intend to go Magga hunting at some point ... it is a threat to the towns along the lake now after all.


    Revan wrote:
    I ended up running her as a twelve-headed cryohydra instead. Still dangerous enough to be dangerous and very tough to kill outright--but the PCs can actually do it some damage in return, so it has an actual reason to leave after four rounds. Black Magga's defenses are so high that the players won't be dealing it any appreciable damage, and it's more than intelligent to realize it. I like the idea of an encounter where the players just have to survive for a while, but Black Magga has no compelling reason to break off its attack.

    I kinda like this idea as well. Possible "yoink" status. Some other creative ideas in this thread too.


    My gestalt-built players were actually able to kill Black Magga before she could get away, but took quite a few hits in the process (the scariest point being when their ranger/wizard failed his save against her Dominate Person ability, and this guy really likes to make things burn...)

    One of the PCs is a Pathfinder, and fought tooth and nail to keep the body so he can have it barged down to Magnimar as a trophy for the Lodge there (preserved, handily enough, via the gargantuan Sihedron Medallion they took from the mummified Rune giant on Hook Mountain).

    Upon returning from Hook Mountain to help Turtleback Ferry's residents recover from the flood, they discovered that one of the tentacles of the beast seemingly 'disappeared' on them. It's as if it just popped itself off from the body and slithered its way into Claybottom Lake all on its own..... >)

    And with the tales about eating Black Magga's heart still around in the local folklore, I'm also envisioning some fun distractions for the party as they try to get the body to Magnimar.

    She's given me some great side story material to fill in the gaps between adventures. I'm glad I kept her in! :)

    Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
    Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR


    I'm going to try for the "limited time" combat myself. I'll play it pretty much as-written, except with the PCs already in town instead of rushing in afterward.

    I still have the problem of "why does Magga break off the fight?" after a few rounds? I am thinking perhaps she has an aversion to sunlight, and so when the rain stops and the clouds break, she retreats to the depths. There's a paladin leading the party so the "heavenly chorus" thing isn't totally out of place.

    Why does the rain stop during the Black Magga fight anyway? Have the Annis Hags given up at that point for some reason?

    This is such a cool scene in principle, but it is really hard to fit everything together.


    Evil Lincoln wrote:

    I still have the problem of "why does Magga break off the fight?" after a few rounds? I am thinking perhaps she has an aversion to sunlight, and so when the rain stops and the clouds break, she retreats to the depths. There's a paladin leading the party so the "heavenly chorus" thing isn't totally out of place.

    Why does the rain stop during the Black Magga fight anyway? Have the Annis Hags given up at that point for some reason?

    The arrival of Black Magga is due to the rush of water that happened when she made a small hole in the dam. Theoretically, she arrives in town roughly at the same time as the surge of water. She retreats when she senses the water receiting (to follow the rush of water downstream).

    This sudden (and temporary) 'burst' of water is what tells the PCs that the dam is still holding but must be dammaged somehow. It's only when they arrive at the dam that they realize that the floodgates are still closed.

    Anyway, that's the story I'll be using this weekend.

    Ultradan


    Right, but the text says that the rain stops at this point. Why? Can't the hags keep it raining and thereby stain the dam even further? Why let up just then as their plan begins working?


    Maybe even magic has its limits... With the hags it just rains more (like 90% more), but the sky still has to recharge at one point or another. :)

    Ultradan


    I DM'd my group through it last night. I was very hesitant going into the fight. I often throw very tough creatures at my group, and the "Know when to fold 'em" thing has not really been established. I try not to open a session with a tough fight, but the time for Black Magga had come. Between all of her attacks, grapple/constrict, and all the mind control abilities, I didn't think my group had much of a chance. Oh yeah, and level draining, can't forget that!

    The fight starts with the group finishing up rescuing people in Turtleback ferry. Suddenly the already rushing river surges several feet higher, knocking away the schoolhouse and some of the other damaged buildings. The Druid spots the creature, but is not able to act until after the beast has pulled itself up onto the muddy bank and blasted the party with a breath of madness. Only the witch fails, and is confused for two rounds. The druid beats SR with a Produce Flame, then a Flaming Sphere the next round, and begins chip away.

    By now the creature is up on the river bank, and melee begins. The fighter dodges all but the last tentacle, and is grappled. The next round, a series of 1's, 3's, and a 5 leaves the fighter almost undamaged. This luck does not hold long and damage starts to flow. The fighter realizes his time is short, he can't escape on his own. Through some good teamwork, a Freedom of movement is cast on the fighter, and he escapes. Then a sleet storm blocks all vision, and reduces the creatures movement. From out of the fog, the creature bites where he last saw the fighter standing. Critical! Even without doubling the energy drain, the fighter is at negative hp, and is finished off a round later by a lucky tentacle shot.

    The witch adds a Cloudkill and even though the creature makes his save the con damage begins. The creature begins to flee back towards the water, but is moving painfully slow. A lucky searing light, a Flamestrike, and more con damage begin to take a heavy toll, not to mention that flaming sphere just keeps burning!

    At the waters edge, the druid casts a wall of fire. The beast Mass Commands that everyone flee, but again, only the witch fails the save. The creature is furious, and attempts to Demand that the druid lowers the wall. Twice the druid refuses. Finally, with 200 damage, the creature pushes through the burning wall, and unable to get its massive bulk through the wall, dies the next round from fire damage!

    I could have been a little more nasty with the metal control magic earlier in the combat, "come to me, my children" But I don't think it would have made all that much difference since those effects can't get past a protection from evil spell. Any player that got grappled had a small chance of survival. I think the characters lack of any serious damage early on let the monster get cocky. By the time the trickle of damage really mattered, it was too late to escape. The druids fire domain, and luck to beat SR 6 times out of 9 made him by far the main damage dealer, although the witch used good battlefield control with the Sleetstorm and Cloudkill

    Not bad for a moderately powerful 9th level party of 4!


    Well after looking for replacements for Magga, Ive decided that when we get to this ill throw a Sea Serpent (from the PF Bestiary) at them instead of Magga or the Cryohydra. Its a CR15 creature like Magga, and Ill still have it break off in round 4, etc.
    Ive always wanted to do a traditional sea monster encounter anyway. Love the new Swallow Whole format btw.


    I ran this a coupe of sessions ago. It was good fun

    The barbarian instead of just attacking chose to climb up Magga and ride her neck. he then kept making succesful climbs checks to hold on, whilst doing some damage with his sword. It seeemed very Conan like.

    The druid who was in giant octopus form from saving the boat with the children tried to grapple Magga, found she was out classed and too a lot of damage.

    They took about a third of here HP before she retreated. Then they chracters were feeling lucky to have survived and the villagers came up and congratulated them on defeating her.

    Thanks for the fun Nick.
    My players still think you are sick though :)


    I ran the encounter last Saturday...

    The group was in the process of (almost done) saving the children in the ferry... The human ranger was in the boat and had just finished fighting the nightbelly boa (and healing the little girl), the human fighter (who was wearing the boots of the mire) was taking the kids off the boat and handing them to the human wizard, while the dwarf cleric was holding a rope that was tied to the boat to keep it somewhat in place. That's when Black Magga surfaced.

    The wizard tried a few spells, but never managed to pierce the creature's SR. After two rounds of utter failiure, he concentrated more on finding a way to save the folks trapped inside the church.

    The cleric did about the same as the wizard.

    The fighter CHARGED the creature, but ended up confused by the Breath of Madness. He took a TON of damage and was lucky to have survived at all.

    The ranger climbed to the roof of the church and tried his best to damage her with a few arrows, but rolled poorly.

    You should of seen the relief on their faces when I explained that after four rounds, the water began to go down, and the creature slowly broke away from the fight to follow the rush of water downstream.

    Good times! lol

    Ultradan


    I've just re-read this post as I ran Black Magga for my party last week. I was worried about the why would she hang around for 4 or so rounds before heading off into the lake, so I altered her a little.

    Simply put, I took away her movement speed, and dropped her swim speed down to 15 feet. This meant that while she was being dragged down the river, she was largely helpless, the water forcing her huge bulk downriver. She was being pushed by the water, but still moving slower, allowing the PC's (who were flying) to quickly check that the dam would not immediately collapse, and nearly catch her up.

    They reached town to find her wedged up against the church, basically she was unable to move, but the force of her and the water was damaging the church. After 4 rounds, the church collapsed, meaning that the flood water could continue to push her into the lake. Black Magga doesn't want to get pushed further downriver, but she really hadn't much choice in the matter.

    So the PC's role was keeping her attention during those 4 rounds, meaning she wasn't attacking townsfolk. Which my group 'kinda' managed. ;)

    =============================

    On a side note, the player of the party sorceress really didn't like the fact that the save against her Breath of Madness ability was a Reflex save. He was adamant, and argued for some time, that it should have been a fortitude save. In the end it really wouldn't have made much of a difference (their saves were all poorly rolled anyway), and I checked the Corrigendum FAQ doc, and there's nothing about it there.

    Would any of you guys change the save to Fortitude?


    TBA wrote:


    =============================

    On a side note, the player of the party sorceress really didn't like the fact that the save against her Breath of Madness ability was a Reflex save. He was adamant, and argued for some time, that it should have been a fortitude save. In the end it really wouldn't have made much of a difference (their saves were all poorly rolled anyway), and I checked the Corrigendum FAQ doc, and there's nothing about it there.

    Would any of you guys change the save to Fortitude?

    I would certainly consider it. The Reflex save doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


    TBA wrote:
    Would any of you guys change the save to Fortitude?

    No.

    If we were talking about making a save after you've already been hit by the attack, then you could make a case for Fort or even Will.

    Refer the player to the definition of saving throw on page 12:

    Core Rulebook wrote:
    When a creature is the subject of a dangerous spell or effect, it often receives a saving throw to mitigate the damage or result. Saving throws are passive, meaning that a character does not need to take an action to make a saving throw—they are made automatically. There are three types of saving throws: Fortitude (used to resist poisons, diseases, and other bodily ailments), Reflex (used to avoid effects that target an entire area, such as fireball), and Will (used to resist mental attacks and spells).

    While this definition is not exhaustive in practice, you can see that the reflex save is used because it is a breath weapon attack that makes a whole area dangerous. A fort save would be appropriate for a poison, perhaps, but not a maddening gas.


    Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    Mary Yamato wrote:

    Before ragging on your players for fighting something they should have run from, better check with them; they may feel that running away will break the scenario, and thus avoid it out of courtesy to the GM. If you punish your players for being courteous in this way, they are likely to take it badly. (And other good stuff...)

    Just want to comment that this is a great point. I think that sometimes players take the leap of faith that they will be able to make it through really tough encounters so that they can advance the plot. IMO it's good for the GM to reward players for sticking with the tough fights by giving them a hand when things get a little too rough or at least giving them proper warnings that they're about to get their asses handed to them. :-)

    I don't want to echo your same thoughts too much, but if my players pulled out of every fight that they started to lose, we wouldn't have very interesting games. Now if I decided to TPK them for sticking with a close fight, I would feel a little like Lucy pulling the ball away from Charlie Brown at the last second..


    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

    I had the same concerns as others about how to disengage the Black Magga fight without it looking completely staged.

    It didn't happen the way I expected. Given the incredible run of luck on crits and damage, etc. (all rolls were witnessed so there was no fudging by anyone) and the very poor rolls I had for saving throws and to hit and damage for Black Magga's attacks, my group had Black Magga on the ropes. I tried to 'beat feet' Black Magga out of there but some terrific parting shots by the party bought her down. The dice gods were looking out for the party that battle.

    Yep, Black Magga was added to the trophy case. The party enjoyed the accolades and reputation (not the mention the XP) for defeating her and that accomplishment was a main salient point of the campaign until the final showdown in Xin Shalast.

    Very memorable.


    Black Moria wrote:

    I had the same concerns as others about how to disengage the Black Magga fight without it looking completely staged.

    It didn't happen the way I expected. Given the incredible run of luck on crits and damage, etc. (all rolls were witnessed so there was no fudging by anyone) and the very poor rolls I had for saving throws and to hit and damage for Black Magga's attacks, my group had Black Magga on the ropes. I tried to 'beat feet' Black Magga out of there but some terrific parting shots by the party bought her down. The dice gods were looking out for the party that battle.

    Yep, Black Magga was added to the trophy case. The party enjoyed the accolades and reputation (not the mention the XP) for defeating her and that accomplishment was a main salient point of the campaign until the final showdown in Xin Shalast.

    Very memorable.

    Your group must have dice luck that would make a Las Vegas pit boss really suspicious.

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