Worlds & Monsters / Praise / comment / bash / troll / your two-cents everybody!!


4th Edition

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Liberty's Edge

That's how it starts. You're slipping over to the dark side.


Heathansson wrote:
That's how it starts. You're slipping over to the dark side.

I find your lack of faith in 4/e... disturbing.

Scarab Sages

The Last Rogue wrote:
All that I get when I read between the lines is that people who have been playing years and years and years are aghast at the slaughtering of the traditions they grew up with. Fine. State that as so and be done with it. But do not try to constantly belittle each aspect of 4e, do not try to manipulate every thing you hear about it to make it seem so negative, simply because you are looking at it in the light of your traditional flavor preferences.

What is so hard to understand that there are a number of us here that just don't like the new design? WHy is it that so many 4ed supporters seem to take personal offense if someone vents their spleen about a design they see as subpar and disadvantageous to their style of gaming?

For the record, I am aware that my posts have been much more caustic of late. What i have seen on the boards recently is many 4ed supporters feel it is their right to express support for the new edition & love of the changes. This is true and a beauty of this community. However, they also heap ridicule and abuse on the anti-4ed gang simply for expressing their dislike of the changes. That is contrary to the way this community has always run itself.

I do not object to your excitement of the new edition, Rouge. I would ask that you and the others here start to respect the right of those who disagree with you to express that disagreement without being ridiculed for it. Our stance is as valid as yours. Lets all try to play nice, hmm?


Tobus Neth wrote:

Scott Rouse: Lord Mearls, this is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence -

Mike Mearls: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Scott. I'm here to put you back on schedule.
Scott Rouse: I assure you, Lord Mearls. My men are working as fast as they can.
Mike Mearls: Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them.
Scott Rouse: I tell you, the 4E system will be operational as planned.
Mike Mearls: Rich Baker does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
Scott Rouse: But, he asks the impossible. I need more men!
Mike Mearls: Then perhaps you can tell him when he arrives.
Scout Rouse: Rich Baker is coming here?
Mike Mearls: That is correct,designer. And, he is most displeased with your apparent lack of progress.
Scott Rouse: We shall double our efforts!
Mike Mearls: I hope so, designer, for your sake. Rich Baker is not as forgiving as I am.

Funny, but Scott Rouse is the Sr. Brand Manager for D&D and would be one of Mike Mearls and Rich Baker's bosses.


Shroomy wrote:


Funny, but Scott Rouse is the Sr. Brand Manager for D&D and would be one of Mike Mearls and Rich Baker's bosses.

Damn I got that backwards, LOL


That's how I take it also. It's like a personal mission to convert the ones staying 3.5, I see some of these folks will see to 4e success by purchasing the core rules not only for themselves but to everyone they know, even if that person, does not want to play 4e. Are they gonna stand in stores on release day and push the new edition when someone picks up a 3.5 product.."You know that system is broken..here try this version it's the brand new core, it's a cross of every rule set that's come before."


underling wrote:


What is so hard to understand that there are a number of us here that just don't like the new design? WHy is it that so many 4ed supporters seem to take personal offense if someone vents their spleen about a design they see as subpar and disadvantageous to their style of gaming?

Underling, the same charge can be made against the way select elements of the anti-4e crowd (who are numerically superior on this board) treat pro-4e posters. For the first few months after this part of the paizo messageboard was opened, I felt that the sheer hostility towards 4e, WoTC, and by extension, anyone with pro-4e sentiments, made my visits not worthwhile. I'm visiting more because I think that the level of hostility has gone down somewhat.

Scarab Sages

Shroomy wrote:
underling wrote:


What is so hard to understand that there are a number of us here that just don't like the new design? WHy is it that so many 4ed supporters seem to take personal offense if someone vents their spleen about a design they see as subpar and disadvantageous to their style of gaming?
Underling, the same charge can be made against the way select elements of the anti-4e crowd (who are numerically superior on this board) treat pro-4e posters. For the first few months after this part of the paizo messageboard was opened, I felt that the sheer hostility towards 4e, WoTC, and by extension, anyone with pro-4e sentiments, made my visits not worthwhile. I'm visiting more because I think that the level of hostility has gone down somewhat.

You are correct, Shroomy. The reason that I still get incensed is that anti-4ed crowd beats on the new edition, but it seems that many of the new edition supporters focus more on snarky or condescending comments targeted at the anti-4ed posters.

I can't count the number of comments like "you're just bitter about the changes - grow-up" or "we know better than you do - you'll be playing 4ed in a month" or "you're just a bitter old man, stop messing up our kewlness" I've seen posted here. It doesn't really cross the threshold to a personal attack (which is why it doesn't get reported) but it sure dances around the edges.

At the very least, these types of condescending comments seem to spur a virulent response, and the thread likely blows up. I've been calling people on it, since it appears that not many others are...


Underling, I think we are going to continue to see this kind of behavior because of Paizo's relatively hands-off moderation policies. Most of this behavior on both sides would not be tolerated on other boards.


Shroomy wrote:
Underling, I think we are going to continue to see this kind of behavior because of Paizo's relatively hands-off moderation policies. Most of this behavior on both sides would not be tolerated on other boards.

I disagree. Unless you flat out ban someone for taking one position or the other, or even discussing edition changes, then you are going to have some issues with this sort of thing. I've seen it on EN World, Candlekeep, and WOTC's boards, all of which are moderated more actively than Paizo's boards.

There is a certain grey area where people can indeed say annoying, inflammatory stuff this isn't a personal attack, and isn't exactly wrong, but said in such a way that it does chafe anyone on the opposing side of an argument.

Heck, WOTC's forums are often a flaming wreck of a wasted time because of the heavy handed, poorly thought out moderation that goes on there.

Liberty's Edge

Kevin Mack wrote:
Am i the only one who finds it odd that someone who by there own admision is a novice DM is helping desighn the rules and playtest them?

I think it's been established previously that WotC suffers from short-term memory. The "old" guard of game development has moved on and the "new" guard has moved in.

Of course, I could be talking out of my arse ... but I recall reading somewhere ... perhaps a Monte Cook post ... of this.


I think we should all back off a little bit. Like our postings are gonna affect peoples views/change minds...("yeah I'm switching to 4e because Crossedwiredmind has convinced me 3.5 is broken, outdated and just not as fun as 4e is gonna be(CWM just using you as a example don't take it personally...I'm not switching because I don't like what I've seen as far as the changes go, I don't care if it's better, faster or rules burden free, D&D is what you make of it.

Now if the DDI is like how Heathansson pointed out "Like Star Wars holographic Chess game, then I might check out that aspect of the game...cuz that will be "Kewl".


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Tobus Neth wrote:

[snip]

Now if the DDI is like how Heathansson pointed out "Like Star Wars holographic Chess game, then I might check out that aspect of the game...cuz that will be "Kewl". [/snip]

Yeah, that’s why even though I don’t think I will be switching to 4e I am pro 4e. I have a dream; it’s called a holo deck. It’s gotta start somewhere.


OWLBEARS CAN FLY IN 4E PREODER 4E NOW STEAL YOUR FRIENDS CREDIT CARDS AND PREORDER FOR THEM REGARDLESS IF THEY WISH TO SWITCH OR NOT YOU SHALL MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT 3.5 IS NOW USELESS IF FACT STOP PLAYING NOW !THE MOUTH OF HASBRO HAS THUS SPOKETH!

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Shroomy wrote:
Underling, the same charge can be made against the way select elements of the anti-4e crowd (who are numerically superior on this board) treat pro-4e posters. ... I think that the level of hostility has gone down somewhat.

Oh it definitely has. I'd like to give both "sides" a pat on the back for being better, and I encourage everyone to continue the trend towards more rational discussion (and friendly jests) and less bitter arguing.

One thing to note: I put sides in quotes because at the end of the day, we're both on the same side. We all want what is best for D&D. Some of us have different visions of what is best, but at the end of the day, we all want the game to succeed.


Did anyone see the vids they have on the site about breaking the gamer stereotype? The woman in the first video reminds me of the kind of lady who talks to her change while she's in line at Dunkin Donuts, although after Chris got past the art section, he seemed to know what he was talking about. They do need to work on that - it makes me cringe to see how gamers are mocked (as I've mentioned before) in cell phone commercials and movies like Shrek 3. I wonder if that's why they're working on insulting and driving the old timers away. Kind of like a "Yeah, it used to be lame and uncool, but now 4th is here, and it's hip!"

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Barrow Wight wrote:
Did anyone see the vids they have on the site about breaking the gamer stereotype?

EDIT: link

Wow. I .... uh .... wow.

Barrow Wight wrote:
although after Chris got past the art section, he seemed to know what he was talking about.

I didn't get that at all. Chris, IMO, appears to blow off the question. He said that he doesn't think that that stereotype doesn't exist anymore or something like that. Yea, that's why that damn altel commercial was made. I don't have cable/dish/rabbit ears and I know about it and have seen it. Under what rock do these people live?


DMcCoy1693 wrote:


Wow. I .... uh .... wow.

That chick is an "Associate Brand Manager" at WotC/Hasborg? What kind of experience does it take to get that job and what does that job title mean exactly? Is it like AOL call centers where every peon in the cube farm is defined as a "peer supervisor" so that when the irate customer demands to talk to a supervisor you just pitch the call back into the queue until they finally give up?

Sara Girard: Don't look at Rob Heinsoo (if I'm recalling my "Unflattering GenCon Videos Which We Really Wished had been Shot More Professionally or had at least Employed More Head Shots" correctly).

Chris Perkins: D&D is now Metrosexual.

OK. Well, that pretty much does it for me. Not that there was any chance at this point of me buying into the whole 4E thing, but...wow....

Sovereign Court

Okay, I checked out this title in the bookstore and it left me with a few impressions. I'd like to think that I am still on the fence about 4E; I will certainly buy the books and try it out, but that doesn't mean I'll use it over 3.5 after a few sessions.

Here are my impressions:

WotC released another book that gives almost no insight into 4E.
The plane of shadow and positive and negative energy are being renamed.
Alignments probably won't be listed as "always such-n-such" again, giving room for bad angels and lawful fey.
The core "generic" setting is going to have all sorts of neat and very specific races and gods, which makes it more of a specific world than a setting template.

After reading the blogs and snippets from the enthusiastic R&D staff, I had an overall disappointment with the book. I would like to see more of the crunch of the new rules previewed, especially if I'm going to shell out cash for a printed product. I don't believe it would hurt the sales of new core books to show a few brief rules, items, or monster attacks, either. That leaves me with the impression that little of 4E is finalized.

WotC, if 4E isn't ready for release, please don't push it out anyway and then charge for errata downloads a couple months later. I hope to see a lot of quality in the core books that represent our favorite hobby game.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I recently perused the book at Borders and for some reason I now feel more optimistic. Maybe it was the coffee and warm white chocolate chip cookie. I don't know.

I was not as ticked off as when I looked through the races and classes book. The new take on planes doesn't bother me at all. My gripe with the latest book is the vagueness of creature alignments. I enjoyed the concept of something being "altogether evil." Made life simpler.

Dark Archive

Tobus Neth wrote:

I think we should all back off a little bit. Like our postings are gonna affect peoples views/change minds...("yeah I'm switching to 4e because Crossedwiredmind has convinced me 3.5 is broken, outdated and just not as fun as 4e is gonna be(CWM just using you as a example don't take it personally...I'm not switching because I don't like what I've seen as far as the changes go, I don't care if it's better, faster or rules burden free, D&D is what you make of it.

Now if the DDI is like how Heathansson pointed out "Like Star Wars holographic Chess game, then I might check out that aspect of the game...cuz that will be "Kewl".

Considering WotC's total lack of competence with anything digital, this is extremely wishful thinking.

Dark Archive

THE MOUTH OF HASBRO wrote:
OWLBEARS CAN FLY IN 4E

1) Please stop with the all-caps.

2) "With Pelor as my witness, I thought Owlbears could fly..."


Barrow Wight wrote:
Kind of like a "Yeah, it used to be lame and uncool, but now 4th is here, and it's hip!"

And totally with all that podding and blogcasting you kids are into these days.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Set wrote:
2) "With Pelor as my witness, I thought Owlbears could fly..."

*casts fly on an owlbear* Tada.


Set wrote:
THE MOUTH OF HASBRO wrote:
OWLBEARS CAN FLY IN 4E

2) "With Pelor as my witness, I thought Owlbears could fly..."

'Course they can. Same way cows can. Just apply a catapult...


CEBrown wrote:
Set wrote:
THE MOUTH OF HASBRO wrote:
OWLBEARS CAN FLY IN 4E

2) "With Pelor as my witness, I thought Owlbears could fly..."

'Course they can. Same way cows can. Just apply a catapult...

Maybe in 4th edition we'll see an Owlbearpig Cow since they are trying to eliminate unnessary monsters and fit every role. This will give us one monster that never could fly, that now can, all rolled up into one.


EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Maybe in 4th edition we'll see an Owlbearpig Cow since they are trying to eliminate unnessary monsters and fit every role. This will give us one monster that never could fly, that now can, all rolled up into one.

Yes, but will it fit one of the four striker/defender/pitcher/goalie roles that are a requirement for perfectly-optimized play?


Krypter wrote:
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Maybe in 4th edition we'll see an Owlbearpig Cow since they are trying to eliminate unnessary monsters and fit every role. This will give us one monster that never could fly, that now can, all rolled up into one.
Yes, but will it fit one of the four striker/defender/pitcher/goalie roles that are a requirement for perfectly-optimized play?

Kryptor: You'll be happy to know that the Owlbearpig Cow will fit the new 4th edition role quite well. In fact as unique a creature as it is and the fact that they drew a picture of it, they decided to create an entirely new category for it, just so it could be included. It is called the "Maximum Optimization". I hear that they are going to say that it is the creature that ended the war between Dragonborn and Tieflings and it's appearance in the PH will require a "bump" of one of the original races....Humans (they decided that they just weren't cool enough unless your a human 4th edition game designer.)


Look, I still can't get over the beheaded Voltron as Dwarven Armor and the Races and Classes book.

This game completely lacks any sort of direction, has no consistency. It really has me thinking "Why did I switch from Second Edition if this is the 4th edition result?"

Shouldn't a new edition of the game be an evolution of the previous one, rather than a throwback to 2e Skills and Powers?

I was using Natural 20=Maximum Damage since the start of my Second Edition game, and I only switched to threat ranges in 3.x because the system broke without it.

So thanks, Wizards, for wasting my money and my life. I can either A) Switch to the new system, and force everyone to convert their PC's a second time or B) Stick with what I have and insult the players who want to switch, leaving new players out of my game without a great deal of work.

How nice. Perhaps next, Wizards will figure out a way to set peoples arses on fire from the rulebooks, and make them pay for soothing medication over the internet.

Dark Archive

They probably would if they could do it. Money-grubbers. Let's switch to a new edition because people are playing the game wrong. How lame.


Balabanto wrote:
Perhaps next, Wizards will figure out a way to set peoples arses on fire from the rulebooks, and make them pay for soothing medication over the internet.

Already done. Give us indigestion by omitting half-orcs, sell them back to us through the DDI.


The angel thing is not that big a deal. They are not saying the PCs are going to be laying the smack down on some goody goody servitor of Pelor..

They are just breaking the connection between demons and devils and the evil gods. Demons are now slavering things out to destroy everything.. evil gods included. And Devils are deicides. So evil gods need supernatural servants at home in the Astral Sea..ergo "angels". That's it, just a terminology change. Bane's priest gets pissed at you and calls up something fiendish to rip you into little bits? Its going to be an "angel" technically. Doesn't mean its going to be nice and pretty like an angel of Pelor.

It also doesn't mean that the game is going to be entirely about hack and slash. Frankly, the game designers need to focus primarily on the hack and slash elements of the mechanics, however. That's what makes or breaks the game. Folks RPed just fine in 1e, which has exactly zero non combat mechanics. And we know that they have given thought to RP elements, though they've mostly explained themselves in cackhanded fashion. But they do seem to want to let folks make RP/non combat choices for themselves without it having to come at the expense of combat prowess. That's probably a good thing, even if they do try to explain it by saying stupid things like "profession skill isn't fun".

I don't think the world "setting" is a threat to homebrews or imposes any sort of restriction on the DM's ability to run a game with whatever flavor he wants. I am very leery of 4e on this subject, but its because of the strong wuxia flavor in the mechanics we've seen so far. If that can't be toned down significantly, it'll be a problem.

The fluff changes are mainly a problem because they represent a generation gap in terminology. There's a lot of "same name, different meaning" going on in 4e fluff that'll be awkward in cross edition conversation in the future.


Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah.


Kruelaid wrote:
Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E...

Kruelaid, I think I missed the point, could you explain your position once more for us slow people? If you can, maybe try and talk down a little, all this technical jargon has my head spinning.


In a word, blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah 3.5 blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah?


Kruelaid wrote:
In a word, blah blah blah blah blah blah 4E blah blah blah 3.5 blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah--blah blah Worlds and Monsters blah blah blah blah blah! Blah blah blah blah blah?

I see....I agree with your first couple of points, but on the last one, I still think that WOTC did it on purpose.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Razz wrote:


Angels to be fought by the PCs...

WHAT!?

Apparently, they didn't like the fact a DM couldn't use angels in D&D to fight the PCs without the DM using the stereotypical "fallen angel" scenario...wow...I can think of PLENTY of reasons why angels would fight PCs, even good ones. While, yes, still rare occurences, something like that SHOULDN'T be common occurences. The stats to angels are only good for two things really: knowing how well it can defend itself, and summoning purposes. That's IT!

Now they have it where ALL deities, good&evil, have their own host of "angels". There's the Harbinger Angel, the Angel of Murder, Angel of Fury, Angel of Darkness, Dark Jedi Angel, whatever else you can think of that's angelic and also bad to the bone, for the PCs to battle against.

Then I don't think you'd like my game world. I've always had angels as the servants of the gods. All of them, not just the good ones. It made it easier for me to figure out how demons/devils/evil gods fit in with one another. Plus not much causes panic in a party like discovering that the Archon you are aiding is actually pure evil.

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