Wizards' Ask Wizards section has been discussing female gamers with relation to 4E. Recent questions:
What steps is Wizards of the Coast taking to help promote D&D to female gamers?
Answer 1 & 2
Summary for the those with slow net connections:
Answer 1: Lets discuss this.
Answer 2: Buy "Confessions of a Part Time Sorcereress" and we've got female fans.
Many women seem to enjoy classes like the Druid and Bard, and there is some concern about these classes not being available as core 4E classes. Can you explain how some of the features that made those two classes popular are being included in the core classes?
Answer
Summary: We'll get to those classes eventually. Those classes aren't unique to women.
I'm not sure exactly how to feel about these. I feel they insult my intelligence about how they're just dodging the question completely and how it doesn't appear like they're even trying to hide it. But I'm a guy; I'd prefer to leave female-related topics to females to handle. But still ... this is my hobby.
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Did I fall asleep and miss that druids were not going to be part of the 4e roll-out? That kind of put a damper on my spirits....
I'd have to agree that I have found those two questions more than just kind of sexist and inaccurate. Why all the discussion on attracting "female" gamers? Have they done similar polling on racial demographics to find out if they need to focus on esl (english-second-language) immigrants? Or how about wondering what they need to do to improve DnD interest amongst the homosexual community? From a business standpoint, I can understand the idea of looking at your demographics (and I'm sure age categories have a lot to do with the decision to upgrade the system), but why flaunt it in such a crass way?
Or maybe us guys are just being overly sensitive. Any of you ladies (Lilith, perhaps?) have an opinion on this?
Or how about wondering what they need to do to improve DnD interest amongst the homosexual community?
I believe Wizards just leaves that to White Wolf. WW's had homosexuals in their games since like day 1. And they've been serious characters, not the token gay that does the hand thing and is overconcered with decorating. I've known more then a few homosexual RPG players that stick with WW games since they feel "welcome" there.
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It's pretty blatant and insulting, as far as I'm concerned. I didn't bother to watch the videos, as the question itself is demeaning (especially the Druid/Bard one - who gives a f&~! if you're a dude or a chick wanting to play these classes). We have to coddle women because they might get a frowny-face because their "favorite" classes might not be in the 4E game to start? F~%#ing bullshit.
Nothing that WotC is doing is making me feel a part of the community, in fact, they're calling attention to the fact that I'm female and I'm a gamer. OMG! I've got bewbs, what do we do with her?!?! Whatever. I just wanna game like the rest of you.
I must follow this with a disclaimer - as has been pointed out to me, I am not the female that WotC is trying to attract with their marketing. I am already a gamer, and all of their pathetic efforts so far have been to attract women that are not gamers. As such, I tend to ignore what they're saying.
Edit: This is the best questions they had for Sage Advice? Really? *goes to look at the equivalent column in Kobold Quarterly, and is much more satisfied*
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I assume Sage Advice is still fan submitted questions?
I'm not sure. This was an "Ask Wizards" as opposend to an "Ask the Sage", and I think there's a difference.
The previous question asked about the artwork change on the cover of the 4th Edition Players' Handbook, which doesn't strike me as the kind of question most gamers would ask.
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I didn't bother to watch the videos, as the question itself is demeaning (especially the Druid/Bard one - who gives a f%~% if you're a dude or a chick wanting to play these classes).
Which is why I wonder if these are fan submitted questions.
Even if they are though, WotC should have never bothered entertaining this one.
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Or how about wondering what they need to do to improve DnD interest amongst the homosexual community?I believe Wizards just leaves that to White Wolf. WW's had homosexuals in their games since like day 1. And they've been serious characters, not the token gay that does the hand thing and is overconcered with decorating. I've known more then a few homosexual RPG players that stick with WW games since they feel "welcome" there.
I'd have to agree on many different levels, with the seriousness that WW tends to give to characters and players. I'm digressing a little from the initial topic, but I can't imagine WW doing lame/cutesy cartoons to promo a new game ...
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I'm not sure. This was an "Ask Wizards" as opposend to an "Ask the Sage", and I think there's a difference.Hmmm. Dunno.
I'm pretty sure that "Ask the Sage" is more of a rules related question section. "Ask Wizards" is more of a "questions about company policy and or stuff going on with the addition change".
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So, what's in the movies anyway? I'm not interested enough to watch.
I watched 2 out of curiosity; it's a WotC employee verbally answering the question, though as has been pointed out the answers don't really seem to add up to much. Thinking along the lines of how long it takes to plan, organize, and film a blurb like that, you'd think it'd still be simpler from a company perspective to have a typed response.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It also bugs me that all their Q&A has had video responses lately ... what's wrong with a written response, rather than a combination of links to watch a 10-second blurb?
Until recently, I had a dial-up connection, and each page from the Wizards site would take almost five minutes to load.
They may be winnowing out the fans who don't have high-speed modems, as the Digital Initative might require it.
This was an "Ask Wizards" as opposend to an "Ask the Sage
My bad. I fixed the OP.
OMG! I've got bewbs, what do we do with her?!?!
*chuckle*
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It also bugs me that all their Q&A has had video responses lately ... what's wrong with a written response, rather than a combination of links to watch a 10-second blurb?Until recently, I had a dial-up connection, and each page from the Wizards site would take almost five minutes to load.
They may be winnowing out the fans who don't have high-speed modems, as the Digital Initative might require it.
I'm guessing their target demographic is the the type that is very likely to have high speed internet connections. Heck, most of the internet assumes a high speed internet connection. I'm not sure that's even worth mentioning as a problem.
Geeks and the internet have a long long long long long long long long long long long long long history together.
Also, please let me be the first to welcome you to the technological marvels of the year 1999! Coming soon: high speed wireless internet!
I'm guessing they are not very concerned about not reaching that subset of the populace that is illiterate for similar reasons...
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I feel that they've been conditioned to that response. The bottles sewn into my cheeks are filled with saliva.I think folks are just too hypersensitive.What's wrong with that?I'm a guy but I think folks are looking for things to find insulting in this.
*chuckles*
I guess I'll have to jump on the bandwagon and find something to be offended about.
I know. Deities & Demigods is highly insulting!
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I'm guessing their target demographic is the the type that is very likely to have high speed internet connections. Heck, most of the internet assumes a high speed internet connection. I'm not sure that's even worth mentioning as a problem.
Geeks and the internet have a long long long long long long long long long long long long long history together.
Also, please let me be the first to welcome you to the technological marvels of the year 1999! Coming soon: high speed wireless internet!
oooh! High speed wireless. I need to check into that. How do the internet demons travel without wires to follow?
More seriously, I know that their target audience is the WOW crowd who are all visual-minded and on high-speed to begin with, but that begs the question to be asked (as we travel more off-topic): will the PHB be released in DVD format too?
As a female, I don't know that the questions are all that insulting. I've played with a lot of other female gamers (esp. in college), but can't find any these days (living in middle Tennessee). I'd be interested to know what WotC plans to try to bring more females into gaming.
The answers weren't so much insulting as they were pointless (assuming the statements above are correct, I'm at work so I can't view their cutesy videos, and if I were at home I probably wouldn't bother to do so anyway). If you aren't going to provide a well-thought-out answer to these sorts of questions, it's better not to post them at all.
Now, the "Confessions of a Part Time Sorceress" column - that's insulting. If that's what they think about female gamers, wow. There are no words for how insulting that is.
Thinking along the lines of how long it takes to plan, organize, and film a blurb like that, you'd think it'd still be simpler from a company perspective to have a typed response.
Simpler, yes. But if I were incharge of WotC (I'd do a ton of stuff differently, but that's another tale) and I said, "The Ask Wizards responses are now to be video," I'd do it for these reasons: It makes the people at WotC seem more accessable, friendly, and available, it gives people warm and fuzzy feelings about the people that work there and the company, which ups the approval rating, which ups sales.
The things that get dudettes to game are almost the same things that get dudes to game. An interest in the genre and a fun game. Or at least what looks the part. Like, everybody likes dragons. You don't have to girly them up to get a dudette to look at one. Their just cool.
People are always getting marginalized by any kind of marketing. When somebody wants to sell me something they blow stuff up and call it a guy's thing. Or zip everything past the camera lens and call it Extreme whatever. I seen a ping-pong game on T.V. once. At the commercial break the announcer called it Extreme Tabletop Tennis. Why? To get a guy to watch it so they can sell me deoderant that'll give me muscles and a suave five o'clock shadow.
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Thinking along the lines of how long it takes to plan, organize, and film a blurb like that, you'd think it'd still be simpler from a company perspective to have a typed response.Simpler, yes. But if I were incharge of WotC (I'd do a ton of stuff differently, but that's another tale) and I said, "The Ask Wizards responses are now to be video," I'd do it for these reasons: It makes the people at WotC SEEM more accessable, friendly, and available, it gives people warm and fuzzy feelings about the people that work there and the company, which ups the approval rating, which ups sales.
Yeah, it is a good idea and they've done that quite a bit. Remember all the audio clips for the 3e promos?
Methinks people are being a bit oversensitive. If you watch the videos they are fairly forthright.
Perkins mentions he believes that there are female gamers, and that WoTC has made at least one attempt to reach out to more (via Confessions)
I am not being sexist but honest . . .D&D is a predominantly male hobby . . .the fact that WoTC is attempting to broaden its fanbase (by offering Confessions [regardless what you think of it]) or by trying to tackle these questions honestly is A GOOD THING.
The NFL is also a predominantly male hobby, yet I found no examples of them trying to reach a female audience . . .so instead of bashing WoTC for making an attempt (however, akward it may be) shouldn't we be a bit happy they are at least trying to reach that decidely small faction of their customer base?
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Eh, they're big girls, if they want to get offended, they can do so without a big strong man to get all offended on their behalf. Patriarchy is dead.
The female gamers I've played with, even going back 20 years to college, have been very heavily biased towards playing fighters (rangers, barbarians, archers) and killing the holy hell out of anything that looks at them funny. Role-playing occurs sometimes in the process, but they sure don't play Bards or Druids or fruity Toreador!
The only female gamer I've played with who played a Bard was into girls, if yanno what I mean.
All of the Druid players have been dudes.
On the other hand, it seems like only the girls want to play Rogues. In a couple decades of D&D/GURPS/etc. I can count the number of guys playing Rogues on one finger, while we've had a couple of the girls try one out.
As for the logic that 4E is 'reaching out to girl gamers' and then specifically saying that they are removing the classes 'traditionally played by girls' from the 4E launch? Yeah. That takes some flexibility.
Contributor
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Three things:
1) The confessions of series are not meant ot represent current women gamers. They are meant to target the hip, modern, young woman demographic, and draw them into gaming. They are trying to make gaming appealling by making it sound like something other than gaming.
2) My 7 year old, frill pink dress wearing. fairy princess loving daughter plays D&D. She plays a dwarf fighter, and likes to kill goblins with her axe.
3) I think that these responses seem empty because for the first time, WotC is letting their people speak freely without a script. They are giving their honest, individual opinions. I say "Yay! About time!"
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Methinks people are being a bit oversensitive. If you watch the videos they are fairly forthright.
Perkins mentions he believes that there are female gamers, and that WoTC has made at least one attempt to reach out to more (via Confessions)
I am not being sexist but honest . . .D&D is a predominantly male hobby . . .the fact that WoTC is attempting to broaden its fanbase (by offering Confessions [regardless what you think of it]) or by trying to tackle these questions honestly is A GOOD THING.
The NFL is also a predominantly male hobby, yet I found no examples of them trying to reach a female audience . . .so instead of bashing WoTC for making an attempt (however, akward it may be) shouldn't we be a bit happy they are at least trying to reach that decidely small faction of their customer base?
Here, here.
I thought the questions themselves were bad ones to put on the website and answer but they did answer well in my opinion.
I am not being sexist but honest . . .D&D is a predominantly male hobby . . .the fact that WoTC is attempting to broaden its fanbase (by offering Confessions [regardless what you think of it]) or by trying to tackle these questions honestly is A GOOD THING.
Unfortunately, you just put it more eloquently that WotC seems capable of. I think WotC is actually doing a lot of good things for gaming, but the video messages seem strangely unconvincing.
I am not being sexist but honest . . .D&D is a predominantly male hobby . . .the fact that WoTC is attempting to broaden its fanbase (by offering Confessions [regardless what you think of it]) or by trying to tackle these questions honestly is A GOOD THING.Unfortunately, you just put it more eloquently that WotC seems capable of. I think WotC is actually doing a lot of good things for gaming, but the video messages seem strangely unconvincing.
Whimsy Chris, the more this 4e thing drags on the more I think you are right.
There area lot of good pro-4e arguments out there and there are a lot of good anti-4e arguments out there, but I can help but think had the 'marketing machine' behind this been a bit better oiled things would have gone smoother.
I like a lot of the ideas for 4e (though I am not yet sold, still sitting on the fence), I feel that WoTC is having a hard time reaching all the necessary demographics in an appropriate manner.
Ah well, time will tell.
but they did answer well in my opinion.
Alrighty. Can you give an alternate summary then? If you don't feel my summary of, "We're talking but not saying anything." isn't accurate, please give an alternate summary.
The female gamers I've played with, even going back 20 years to college, have been very heavily biased towards playing fighters (rangers, barbarians, archers) and killing the holy hell out of anything that looks at them funny.
A girl I once dated (gamer before I met her) told me that when she figured out that she can "kill stuff, be bloodthirsty and viscious without any reprocussions" was "Where do I sign up!?!"
I'm insulted because I like playing bards and druids.
Sometimes, this whole 4E rollout is just too surreal.
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I am a chick - and I already game - so I am not their target for appealing to new gamer girls. In my experience, the more a company like WotC tries to appeal to females, the more they end up turning them away.
Make the game easy to learn and treat new players with respect and patience. That will encourage males and females to play the game.
FYI - I game with two other females and four other males.
I am a chick - and I already game - so I am not their target for appealing to new gamer girls. In my experience, the more a company like WotC tries to appeal to females, the more they end up turning them away.
So My Little Pony RPG won't appeal to you? ;)
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but they did answer well in my opinion.Alrighty. Can you give an alternate summary then? If you don't feel my summary of, "We're talking but not saying anything." isn't accurate, please give an alternate summary.
They said that druids and bards are not primary female classes and those classes will be included in future PHB's. What else could they say to that question unless you think that those two classes do attract more females.
As for the next, Chris said that they released a book to promote more female gamers, I have not read the book so I can't say anything about it's content, and he said that he thinks there are already a decent amount of female gamers out there.
Again what else could he say, they are trying with things like Confessions and are trying to get the game out to more people.
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I am a chick - and I already game - so I am not their target for appealing to new gamer girls. In my experience, the more a company like WotC tries to appeal to females, the more they end up turning them away.So My Little Pony RPG won't appeal to you? ;)
Hey man, when they had that a couple years back as an April Fool's Day gag, I was stoked. :D
They said that druids and bards are not primary female classes and those classes will be included in future PHB's.
Summary: We'll get to those classes eventually. Those classes aren't unique to women.
Chris said that they released a book to promote more female gamers, ... he said that he thinks there are already a decent amount of female gamers out there.
Answer 2: Buy "Confessions of a Part Time Sorcereress" and we've got female fans.
Ok, so I fail to see how our summaries are different.
But if I were incharge of WotC ... and I said, "The Ask Wizards responses are now to be video," I'd do it for these reasons: It makes the people at WotC seem more accessable, friendly, and available, it gives people warm and fuzzy feelings about the people that work there and the company, which ups the approval rating, which ups sales.
Can I call it or what?
As a point, I really hate these video answers. 75% of the time I'm on computers without sound. Bleck
Have no fear, the summaries are pretty accurate since we have a "they were good" view and a "they were annoying/insulting" view and they're very similar. Also there wasn't much beyond that said.
Ok, so I fail to see how my summaries are different.
You also fail to see the point.
HOW ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSE TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION?
HOW IMPORTANT OF A QUESTION IS IT?
And, again (and for the last time) the mere fact they are trying to reach out (no matter how akwardly) to a small slice of their gaming public is a good thing no matter how you cut it. Many male or female dominated hobbies do not reach out to the opposite sex, but at the very least WoTC is.
Why does this insult you? How can this been seen as insulting in the very least? Nothing, nothing, nothing came across as sexist or demeaning . . .even if they mention that according to their research that women usually play druids or bards (which seems to be your somewhat biased take on women gamers) -- that is not insulting that is them letting us know what there research has shown . . .if you believe it is wrong don't criticize them, enlighten them!
Also, they are not dodging questions . . .the mere fact THEY chose to post it, then answer it is a clear rebuttal to the dodging of it. If they dodged it they would not post it and no one would be the wiser.
HOW DO YOU NOT GET THIS?
Furthermore listen to answer one again. It says a hell of a lot more than we need to discuss that . . .it says WE NEED TO DISCUSS THAT WITH FEMALE GAMERS, IT SAYS WE NEED TO PUT A FACE ON FEMALE GAMERS (could be read as we need to make female gamers feel more at home with D&D), IT SAYS WE NEED TO CREATE A FORUM FOR FEMALE GAMERS. That is actually a pretty descriptive answer and much more detailed than your biased OP.
And all CHRIS said is that D&D HAS A LOT TO OFFER FEMALE GAMERS.
AAAH!
I just watched the videos and to me it looked like something that was just slapped together. No editing went into the video (so it would appear). Issues like head positioning, expressions, Uhmms... etc. were considerable. Hardly the type of thing I would put on the internet. Very low quality. I think that they chose to go with video because it was cooler for their image.
Essentially the first person said "We have a lot to offer", to girls and that was it.
The second person said "We have Shelly's Confession of a Part-time Sorcerer book" to appeal to the girls. Nuff said!
Personally, if I worked at WOTC and the female player issue was something I told them to address in a video, I would have sent it right back to them and said "Do it right or get a new job". The lack of quality, script, lighting, etc. showed me they really didn't care about doing the video.
I get a lot of junior high and high school female traffic around the house, most of which are individuals who have not played long. The girls are more interested in playing druids, clerics, and other non-fighting characters. My impression....because they either relate to animals (like the animal companion) or because they jump out as classes more interesting to roleplay.
Of all the kids that come and go, male and female, the women are by far the one's that want stories and roleplay their characters.
I also think that what interests females varies from age to age. These are junior high and high school girls so certain things attract them differently than say a college student or a grade schooler.
Of the guys within this age bracket that play, they are more interested in power. They play the fighter types, wizards, and avoid the classes the ladies play. The boys seem interested in having companions as well but they always want dragons (as in Draconomican), where as the girls want wolves, dragons, cats, they are more flexible.
The other things I noticed are the girls want to advance much slower than the guys. The boys just want to go up a level, charge right in, and play in a meta-gaming way. It's all about the gold, killing, and XP. The girls complain a lot about this when the boys are not around.
This is what I see on a regular basis in our house. I'm not suggesting girls are better players than boys or vice versa. I am saying that at this age level, different things appeal to each gender. The girls all have animal posters and pictures of "guys" on their wall, along with pictures of their friends. The boys put up sports stuff.
The DM is female, and she constantly complains about the male players treating her like a "chick" as she calls it. She feels disrespected because she is female. I've had long talks with her and I think this has more to do with the age category of the people involved. On a more mature level (say college) I suspect this will disappear. Hope so!
Personally, if I worked at WOTC and the female player issue was something I told them to address in a video, I would have sent it right back to them and said "Do it right or get a new job". The lack of quality, script, lighting, etc. showed me they really didn't care about doing the video.
That's it. Are we actually watching the same videos.
It was a simple answer to an Ask Wizards question they are not going to give any of them full-blown production values.
The NFL is also a predominantly male hobby, yet I found no examples of them trying to reach a female audience...
Don't they have Kelly Clarkson doing part of their 'kickoff' thing this year?
Sean Mahoney
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I just watched the videos and to me it looked like something that was just slapped together. No editing went into the video (so it would appear). Issues like head positioning, expressions, Uhmms... etc. were considerable. Hardly the type of thing I would put on the internet. Very low quality. I think that they chose to go with video because it was cooler for their image.
Essentially the first person said "We have a lot to offer", to girls and that was it.
The second person said "We have Shelly's Confession of a Part-time Sorcerer book" to appeal to the girls. Nuff said!
Personally, if I worked at WOTC and the female player issue was something I told them to address in a video, I would have sent it right back to them and said "Do it right or get a new job". The lack of quality, script, lighting, etc. showed me they really didn't care about doing the video.
Scott Rouse made it quite clear in a reply on the WotC forums that "cool" is the first priorty with their internet material, with any user perceptions of quality or relevance being so far down the list as to place any criticism of such materials in the category of "whining."
Video replies are cool. That is all that matters. Embrace their coolness, and do not bother them with irrelevant details.