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(...)
(Did you know that I live only a few hours from the real Castle Frankenstein?...they make a hell of a Halloween party there :-)
They do! I have been there only twice, but getting buried in a sarcophagus for the first half an hour of my first visit was - well -shocking!
A real chainsaw put up between your legs is so horrible and for an awfully long moment you get the feeling that a psychopat has mingled with the players until you realize that the chainsaw has no chain. I never forget that moment...I live about 30 km southwest of that castle! ;)
At first I was a bit put off by the science fiction type flavor that seemed to infuse your entry. It quickly grew on me, however, and I appreciate the effort, as do a lot of the voters, clearly. The writing is very good, and your concepts are executed a step above competent. Clearly this is one of the better entries this round.
Ultimately, though, I asked myself if evil wizards need more tools with which to foil adventurers and the answer was "No, not really." I think if your flavor focused more on "ancient construct secrets lost to time" or "the final eternal remnants of a precursor civilization" this would have been more useful to folks.
But maybe I played too much Gamma World as a youth. (The Dungeon Core might be commanded to cause no harm to Pure Strain Humans.)
I might use these monsters if I was going to run a gamma world style fantasy adventure, but I probably wouldn't. Still, this entry is a near hit, and considering how picky I am, that's a good thing.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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At first I was a bit put off by the science fiction type flavor that seemed to infuse your entry. It quickly grew on me, however, and I appreciate the effort, as do a lot of the voters, clearly. The writing is very good, and your concepts are executed a step above competent. Clearly this is one of the better entries this round.
Ultimately, though, I asked myself if evil wizards need more tools with which to foil adventurers and the answer was "No, not really." I think if your flavor focused more on "ancient construct secrets lost to time" or "the final eternal remnants of a precursor civilization" this would have been more useful to folks.
But maybe I played too much Gamma World as a youth. (The Dungeon Core might be commanded to cause no harm to Pure Strain Humans.)
I might use these monsters if I was going to run a gamma world style fantasy adventure, but I probably wouldn't. Still, this entry is a near hit, and considering how picky I am, that's a good thing.
Ah GW. My last D&D campaign, which featured a lot of Far Realmsian horror tropes, included the Knights of Genetic Purity! good times...
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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I don't want to offend any of the other contestants, but I made the statement earlier 'yay. Another golem.'
Golems have almost become this 'what concept haven't we tried yet. Brain golem? Rope golem? These are not good ideas.
Yeah. Complexity golem bucks that trend. This is one of the most original ideas I have ever seen. I would give it intelligence, and I would still include the berzerk trait inherent in a lot of golems. The alien, artificial intelligence throws off the control of its master and seeks 'increased definition' for itself. There's an adventure!
And what about those illumians? I bet they make a killer math golem.
Some mechanical issues:
I would change the disproving attack to 5d6 damage, and state that a creature killed by this attack is affected as if by disintegrate. I think immunity to most magic and incorporeality give it a good balance for low hp.
Its base attack is +11, not +13. Its attack is therefore at +12.
I think intelligence is required for tactics like sunder, disarm, flank. Note that the incorporeal creature can't disarm. I would make it telepathic, also. It would then need feat and skill choices, likely including weapon focus at CR 15.
The dungeon core is also fascinating, but very fragile. I want something beefier and more inister. It's great mystery to lead your PCs through a maze of opening and closing doors, always wondering how the bad guys seem to know just where they are. When they encounter the horror of the mind/machine core, it should have its own physical attacks and take a long time to kill, unless the brain stem is sundered. That feat needs a little rewarding every now and then, anyway.
You don't need to give it the quickened message feat if it can do it at will. Giving it the feat just restricts the quicken to three times a day.
The dream-distilled template needs to be presented to DnD. It's one of those forehead-slapping ideas the judges mentioned in another post. Though, I think it's better if it dissipates without the upkeep of its creator. Some kind of dependency that can be used as a plot motive. If you really want to add a frankenstein feel to this entry, a dream-distilled trophy wife who hacks up her husbands rivals is a great mystery with a horrific turn. Without his continued brilliance or happiness, she can't exist. To maintain it, she removes personal and professional threats. But she is flawed, and not as smart as the idea he conceived, so she can be found out.
A fine effort. I would prefer that the entries for the template be consistent with other templates. Ability score mods near the end, for one example. I am ready to cast a vote your way unless someone really whoops my ass in the remaining four entries.
[/spoiler]
I don't want to offend any of the other contestants, but I made the statement earlier 'yay. Another golem.'
Golems have almost become this 'what concept haven't we tried yet. Brain golem? Rope golem? These are not good ideas.
Heheheh. People so often differ in their opinions.
I like the rope golem and used it recently. It existed as a rope bridge, with orders to dump people into a pit below that happened to be the lair of a bone ooze.
Too bad the party was paranoid and cast detect magic on everything. "The bridge is magical? What kind of magic? Must be a golem or something! Fireball it!!"
Soon, soon, it will be the case that a mage has spent a little too long in the Far Realms and it has affected his complexity golem. And that's not a good thing for anyone.
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Initial Comments (name, title, thematic link, design choices, playability, quality of writing, hook, theme, organization): A-
I
Golem: A
Christine, I have to admit I felt like I was listening to Rush when reading your Complexity Golem entry and that isn’t generally meant as a compliment. Rock is supposed to be rebellion and energy, not simply talent and math.
Wow, that was kind of harsh. Why pick on Rush? They are a great band. Just because they are extremely talented and precise musicians is no reason to pick on them.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Christine:
Despite my not being certain over the application of the Foil Teleport ability (as stated in my previous post on this thread, it is the only significant quibble I have with the mechanics of the design of your creatures at present) and on that basis I am giving you my third and last vote.I have no qualms over a CR 15 creature having multiple disintegrate attacks in a round. PCs at the level of play where they face a monster of that CR should be able to handle incoming damage like that.
(Besides which, second level figments such as mirror-image are able to fool it with regard to 'soft' targets such as wizards as far as I am able to determine.)
Whether golems are affected by illusions has been the subject of internet flamewars for ages. Strictly by the rules, I think they probably should be.
I think my issue was more the combo of incorporeal touch attack, plus the fact that it will ignore DEX/dodge bonuses vs. most opponents (who won't have the INT to see it) plus sheer damage (per attack 30d6 with a DC 22 (Christine's math was incorrect) Fort save for 5d6, no SR, no DR, just suck it up and take it). Sure, a max-Fort character will be okay (say a 15th level character with all good Fort saves (cleric, fighter, etc.) and a good Fort prestige class, 18 Con and a +4 resistance item or spell will have a +20 Fort save. Wiz/rogue types will be lucky to be better than about +12, possible, but hard to get. That's a 50/50 shot at enough damage to likely instakill (plus a DMD save even if you survive the damage).
The Huge complexity golem seems worse because of the maximized. A 10 HD bump for a construct plus a size increase puts it at about CR 19, and now we are talking about 2 inc touch attacks for 228 points of damage EACH (Fort save around 27 or better to make it 30 points).
Sure, maybe a CR 19 creature SHOULD be a doomsday weapon kind of threat, but it would have a good shot (almost 50/50) to take out a CR 20 pit fiend in 1 hit, almost certain with 2. Of course, golems mostly are fighting PCs, not other monsters, so maybe it's a pointless comparison.
Anyway, I totally dig the complexity golem. I think it's a neat idea and a pretty fair execution. I would tinker with it a little before I used it, but that's just my personal preference.
Though I like the concept of the complexity golem, the monster itself doesn't do much for me. It's ultimately a bit too bland given how out there the concept is. I was expecting a lot more from it, I guess.
As others have said, the dungeon core should be tougher. Again, I really like the concept though. I probably wouldn't use it as-is, but I can very easily see myself making its abilities less magical and more fantasy tech and sticking it in my DragonMech campaign.
I do love the dream distilled template. That one's a definite keeper.I like having several special abilities to choose from so that not every dream distilled creature has the same abilities.
I haven't voted for any of Christine's other entries so far but I'm pretty sure this one is getting my vote. When I read the first paragraph or two I thought about not even finishing. I thought the monsters sounded kind of ridiculous and Dungeon Core sounded like a video game. But after reading the rest this is my favorite entry out of the 5 that I've read. So I'm really glad I continued reading. That said, I probably wouldn't have the complexity golem in a game unless it was some kind free willed creature and then probably not something the party would actually fight but instead be threatened or directed by (like a god). It could also end up having some supreme weakness that the players have to find in order to defeat it.
I don't mind the Dungeon Core being fairly defenseless once you get to it. I think just the revelation that it was a construct and how cool it looks would be enough to make player's tell stories about it for years.
The template was just okay. I really like the creation and the mercury / steampunk kind of atmosphere it provokes the powers were weak. Good luck.
Points right from the starting gate for the Frankenstein reference!
Unfortunately the first creature doesn’t seem to relate to the reference really. The third one is also stretching a point. I think that the ideas here are good, but aren’t coming through entirely. The writing is not very clear on several points. The theme that appears in all three creatures isn’t as cohesive as I might expect. (Put differently, it’s like saying that plants, rocks and oxygen all come from the planet Earth. They are linked in place of origin, but that’s too broad of an umbrella?)
The Complexity Golem has a very low AC for its CR. Even though it relies upon incorporeality as a primary defense, expect a party at this level to have defenses against it. I like the name for the disintegrate ability. Incomprehensible should say that it’s equivalent to greater invisibility. That said, this thing is a terror. I think it might mess with a party right and proper.
The Dungeon Core has a great concept. I think its detect magic ability is too weak. It’s essentially limited to line of sight within 60 feet. It’s sight and hearing range is a 300 foot radius, enough to control the whole dungeon, but obviously it’s got limited area of awareness against magic, and I think that’s a problem since a dungeon creator knows that magic-using creatures might invade. The creature has really great flavor! I love the notion that the creator has to essentially “spawn” a second brain.
Finally, we turn to the Dream Distilled Creature. Here we see some amazing concepts struggling to get out, and I think the language barrier has finally hurt you. The potential here is excellent. You can see that you play the game (a quality several “name” designers lack), which is important. The critter causes nonlethal “splash” damage? Cool. (However, it needs beefing up. A lot.) It blocks movement? Nice. (Although I think there’s a typo in fever dream. I don’t quite see how it can block movement but not line of sight.) It might be able to block 5’ steps? I hear the shrill cries of the players now. Music to my ears. Sure, it’s limited by what you choose for the template, but it’s like a completely reimagined ghost. I like it. (I am not quite sure it’s a construct though, unlike the prior two monsters.)
In contrast to a different entry that I just read with names that turned me off, the names here seemed a bit bland. The flavor needed to be turned up a couple notches along with how hard the creatures hit. I don’t know that you quite hit “thematically linked” so well. This is a concept that’s hard to put a finger on, but you know it when you see it. I really like the ideas here. I can see stealing at least one, maybe two. In particular, the Dream Distilled Creature shows a lot of potential to mess with players if some of the awkwardly worded abilities get rewritten.
Contributor, RPG Superstar
aka Leandra Christine Schneider
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Yay! Now that the voting is closed I can finally stop holding my breath :-)
I really have to get some things lifted away from my heart since this round's discussion of my entries was very intense. Umm...lets start at the beginning:
Complexity Golem
Why?:
I wanted to do a golem because it was really difficult to come up with something unique in that field. I had the impression that all golem ideas were taken, so it was a challenge. To tell the truth I was afraid that someone, somewhere might have already had a "math golem" (note: I know only a fraction of the D&D history...I started playing when AD&D started dying). Fortunately it seems to be a kind of a new idea.
I also wanted something "high level" and at the same time "easy to run", to show that not every CR 15+ encounter needs days of preparation.
Despite its name, this monster fulfilled these things in my eyes.
TWO disintegrate TOUCH attacks!?:
Yep. Maybe playing in a highly book enhanced and experienced enviroment hurt me here :-S *bites her lips*
Umm...you know...DC 19 is not very high at that level...and it is an intentional DC 19. I calculated the DC like a SP ability (10+6+Cha) and I really wanted it that low. The golem should do 5d6 (10d6)dmg/round with the slim chance of an instant kill (something usual at these levels and one of the few things that are feared).
The advanced golem should also have a (low) DC of (10+6+Cha)...I should have mentioned that though.
...oh...and seriously, a +15 touch WILL miss Rogues and other Dex-Based Fighters quite often.
Why calculate the DC in that strange (and not very legal) way?:
Because I really dislike that monster abilities are done 10+0.5HD+MOD. Really.
It is an unfair calculation. Usually it is ok at the level the creature fits naturally, but as soon as someone starts adding HD, it gets out of hand. With up to 3(!) times its CR in HD to start with (Additionally, a +1CR is worth up to 4 HD!), monster DC's are unable to make even with very tough, high level, super-magic buffed and equipped characters. They just escalate too fast. (essentially ~ +2,5 per CR increase, while GOOD saves scale at +0.5/lvl + magic).
You may consider this a rant :P
Magic Immunity is always bad!:
I agree. I pretty much hate (note: not dislike, hate) immunity things. But since all golems have that, I didn't want to break the tradition (I already felt like putting a strain on the usual and mundane). Magic Immunity isn't all that bad once you get to know it though :-). Especially the "ORB" spells (see spellcompendium) and other spells that allow no SR or PR are very effective against the golem. I recommend the (maybe metamagically boosted) "orb of force" (4th lvl, 10d6 ranged touch, no SR, force effect) as your weapon of choice.
Spellcasters can't do anything when this thing appears:
Umm...they can use buff spells, point to the right space for the fighter as well as act as a second line tank. With a high Will Save they only take 10d6 dmg/round and can also hurt the golem with various effects (see above).
The golems AC of fourteen is a bit low:
Although Invisibility and Incorporeality make up for that, the golem is vulnerable to Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting. I intended it that way, to create a strategy for the party to deal with these beasts.
Strange Invisibility text there...:
Its a modified invisible stalker mechanic. Maybe greater invisibilty would've been a more up to date design.
@ancientsensei
I fear you are wrong with your correction. Constructs have a BAB of 3/4HD. Therefore the complexity golem is correct with its BAB of (18x0.75=) +13.
Dungeon Core
Why?:
Ok, this time I wanted to create something that is unlike any other monster in a mechanical sense. The dungeon core's main strategy is not about picking a fight with the party, but about making ALL fights in an adventure tougher, as well as negating typical strategy that leads to anticlimatic adventures (foil teleport, party resting causes the spell-like abilities of the core to recharge).
Too weak for CR 8?:
I disagree. *jumps into cover, quenches potion of bear's endurance, and prepares to use full combat expertise*
To be honest, I first set that cute little brain at CR 9.
My reasons for the CR were the following:
-It already has a CR 5 and a CR 2 Monster built in, (that respawns 1/week) in form of an Animated Object.
-It negates sneaking (or makes it difficult). (Disabling the core is there, to give those rogues something else instead)
-It can do things like: splitting up the party with a wall of stone in mid-fight, telekinetic push a character into a pit and close it as a move action, counter (with dispel magic) a critical spell etc. All, while being save far far away in the dungeon.
-Adding templates with spell-like abilities is really, really effective. (Fear the half-fiend core)
No staying power:
For a change of pace, I decided that the core itself should be very easy to defeat once you fought your way through the whole dungeon. It mingled so well with the "brain in a jar" style and its constant paranoia. The approach of a tougher core with a cool fight could be achieved with templates and added HD.
I don't know if I'd do it the same way again...
So...why did you decide on CR 8 then?:
As Alex has already pointed out (thank you for that :-) ) The CR system isn't the best fit for a monster like this. I simply decided at what time of a campaign a strange construct like this would be appropriate. 8th level felt right. The core got a CL and ablities to match that level (except for direct combat abilities, see above).
Two dungon brains fighting each other. Very Dungeon Keeper like...:
*blushes*
I loved the game (an eternity ago) and the idea stuck in my mind. Although I didn't think about it while creating the core, I remembered it instantly when I was done. I simply had to put it into the adventure suggestions section.
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
- Albert Einstein
Dream Distilled Creature
Why?
It's a template. I love templates because I can put them anywhere to make old things new again.
In addition it does something for the PCs, due to its versatile approach (selecting ones own powers is always fun). Also, I think I didn't like most of the "dream" creatures I have seen (and I don't seem to be the only one :P). (Exception: the Eberron Quori.) Trying to do one myself was a kind of self serving ^.^
-10 on Ability Scores...that hurts!:
Yes, but who is MAD enought to depend on all of them? Adding a penalty to only a few scores (or even worse, a bonus) usually leads to a class of character that enjoys the template immensly, while other character types would never choose it.
In the end, I decided that construct traits (with all their dreaded immunities) had to be payed for with ones soul and overall strength, regardless of the character archetype.
The dream abilities are too subtle:
Umm. In hindsight I think I have to agree. I still support the CR +1 bump for a fitting monster (especially because you get two of them later on), but the trouble is that they simply need to be used in combination to warrant the CR increase.
For example:
-Nightmareborn makes it difficult to escape the Dream Haze.
-Spring Attack and Fever Dream in a narrow corridor nearly negate usual close combat.
-Reccuring Dream is mostly a PC's upgraded death's door...being destroyed at 0hp isn't much fun.
-A high HD (but low CR) creature's (eg. giant) wishful dream is a huge HP boost for all combatants (even low hp Ogre Mages etc.).
-If you use the Book of Nine Swords you'll likely find many other synergies (If you don't, you should consider to check it out...its my favourite, so please excuse that sneaky advertising :P ).
Isn't 1d4 automatic dmg a bit tough for 1st lvl?
It is 1d4 nonlethal dmg that can be avoided by simply not ending the turn while being adjacent to the creature. These longspears had to be good for something :P
How can a "Fever Dream" make a space impassable, while still allowing for lines of effect?
Dreams are full of illogical things like this and I wanted that to reflect on the abilities. Imagine a wraped and distorted space you'd never set foot into, while throwing a fireball through it (or jumping over it) is perfectly fine.
What about that "Nightmare Born" and the nightmare spell?
Nightmare Born creatures don't take any damage from a nightmare spell.
Summary
Phew...although this got dreadfully long, it felt like the most enjoyable round :-)...yet.
The fact that some people thought the Dream Distilled Creature to be to weak, while others decided it to be a tad too strong, was very interesting. I see that it is difficult to create something that is "balanced", because there are so many styles of play out there.
Right now I think the golem was a little too tough, the dungeon core should've had one or two more spell-like abilities and the dream distilled creature was about right.
Thank you all for voting, participating, ignoring the spelling issues in the above text and for making it to this line.
I hope to see you all next round!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Christine, I enjoyed your recap of your design choices. As one of the people ranting about the touch disintegrates I enjoyed reading your thoughts about it, including how you had purposefully altered the 'base' save DCs to a static DC, which does make it less hardcore. I also enjoyed hearing about your tactical thoughts about how PCs would approach your monsters. Good stuff.
I've voted for your country, villain, and monsters, and I look forward to seeing what new madness you will concoct for an encounter!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar
aka Leandra Christine Schneider
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The dungeon core can choose to counter any [teleportation] spell, but he does not have to.
A dungeon core can counter any spell with the teleportation descriptor, if the spell teleports anything into a space within the core’s area of control.
I guess it usually doesn't foil anything its creator does, but some cores get out of hand :P
I googled the Moigno and I am happy that he is not too similiar...immunity to weapons is a pretty tough one. Maybe I should have thought about that! *evil grin...just kidding*
Why calculate the DC in that strange (and not very legal) way?: Because I really dislike that monster abilities are done 10+0.5HD+MOD. Really.
It is an unfair calculation. Usually it is ok at the level the creature fits naturally, but as soon as someone starts adding HD, it gets out of hand. With up to 3(!) times its CR in HD to start with (Additionally, a +1CR is worth up to 4 HD!), monster DC's are unable to make even with very tough, high level, super-magic...
I agree with you here. CRs are much more of an eyeballing calculation than a hard and fast mathematical exercise. You point out that you game in an environment rich with options. I don't run my games with that many options. That affects perceived CR.
Dreams are full of illogical things like this and I wanted that to reflect on the abilities. Imagine a wraped and distorted space you'd never set foot into, while throwing a fireball through it (or jumping over it) is perfectly fine.
I think then if the ability description started with your line "Dreams are full of illogical things" and went on in a little more detail about how it blocked movement but not line of sight then I would have been fine with it.
Thank you for supplying your rationale behind your choices. You play the game. You have aptitude for design work. It shows. I like the fact that you purposely pushed the envelope with the mechanics of these creatures and got very imaginitive. You came very close to getting my third vote. It strikes me that stylistically, you'd fit in well with the great folks that write the Avadnu setting pdfs.
*jumps into cover, quenches potion of bear's endurance, and prepares to use full combat expertise*
I suspect you mean "quaffs potion of bear's endurance", Christine - though quaffing it might quench your thirst! I'm not saying this to be mean, or nit-picky - I honestly thought you'd want to know. Please tell me if I'm wrong...
I loved your detailed explanation of your design choices - thanks!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar
aka Leandra Christine Schneider
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Ok. It should have been quaff ...I think I wanted to write that word but got stuck with the other one.
I'm ok with any correction...if I write or speak fluently without revising anything, things like that tend to happen sometimes. I hope it iz ez cute az ze french accent :P
I hope it iz ez cute az ze french accent :P
:-D Yeah, it's cute. In fact, it just highlights how impressive your submissions are, when you have to be worrying about the issues of writing in a second language on top of all the other pressures. I know I'd have no hope of doing something similar in any language other than English.
The Complexity Golem reminded me of the weird golems in China Mieville's "Iron Council."
I wonder if the Complexity Golem might work better as a kind of "mathematics elemental?" Maybe with good Will saves instead of good Fort (earth/water) or Reflex (air/fire)?