Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Question about rogue build


D&D 3.5/d20/OGL


Is improved feint a good feat to take for sneak attacking?


Well that's a tough question !!

Improved Feint is a good feat because it allows you to sneak attack without any help and even if your opponent has uncanny dodge (and the improved one).

But on the other side, you will allways be limited to one attack per round and some opponents will remain hard to strike (paladin usually have low Dex and a lot of Sense Motive, fighters/rogues are hard to feint too). At higher levels, Improved Feint is really less interesting.

So if you have a fighter (or more) to give you flanking and are fighting against heavily armored foes, don't use Improved Feint.

On the other hand, if you are fighting mostly lightly armoured foes (like the pirates of the Savage Tide AP), Improved Feint could be a good choice for low level but will become less and less interesting.


If you have a decent Charisma, Improved Feint is a great feat. As long as you keep plenty of ranks in Bluff, that feat will allow you to use feinting more often, which is especially good if your companions don't help in setting up a flanking situation.


Improved Feint:

Spoiler:

Improved Feint [General]
Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit
You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.

Normal
Feinting in combat is a standard action.

A fighter may select Improved Feint as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Feint:

Spoiler:

Feint
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Feinting as a Move Action
With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.

You get your backstab. So if you have a decent bluff and are looking for more fencer then skulking rogue then yes it is good.


So for role playing purposes, because flashy rogues are cool. Would a tumbling/feinting rogue would be good enough, just maybe not the ultimate build?


Blade402 wrote:
So for role playing purposes, because flashy rogues are cool. Would a tumbling/feinting rogue would be good enough, just maybe not the ultimate build?

Yeah it's a fine build. My experience has been that most of the stuff you fight won't have a terribly high Sense Motive. Obviously at the low levels it's better because you don't have the multiple attacks to give up in exchange for the feint.


I'm going to go against the flow and say that improved feint is NOT a good feat for a sneak attacking rogue. To use feint at all with a rogue requires you to be the one place you want to avoid, in melee. With a d6 hitdice, medium BAB and light armor, you want to generally avoid melee like the plague.

With 2-Weapon-Fighting melee can be a viable option simply because you dish out stacks of damage that can take the enemy down faster than they can take you down. But improved feint (or feint at all) removes this.

With improved feint you get a single attack with sneak attack, and then have to take a full attack from whatever you just feinted. That sounds like a recipe for a soon dead rogue. MUch better to either avoid melee, or dish out a stack of damage so you kill whatever you attack in one (at most 2) round(s).

So avoid Improved Feint. You are better served taking 3 levels in Swashbuckler (Weapon Finese and INT to damage), or Fighter2, Ranger 2.


I reccomend taking improved feint because it's pretty handy for a rogue. However, as your feat isn't going to help your attacks hit more, I reccomend that you either invest in something that helps you attack rolls--don't bother with the damage ones, thanks to sneak attack--or, if you have an extra feat, use that instead.


Blade402 wrote:
So for role playing purposes, because flashy rogues are cool. Would a tumbling/feinting rogue would be good enough, just maybe not the ultimate build?

Yeah, but what do you mean by a tumbling / feinting rogue. Tumble is one of the best skills in the game, and is excellent for a rogue.

If you want a rogue that roams around the battlefield, tumbling into position to set up sneak attacks and then looking for the next option, I would actually suggest going the spring attack route. Of course with maximum ranks in tumble. This way you tumble in, hit for a bunch of damage, then tumble back out to avoid the full attack back. Just flavour your spring attack as a "feint."

Unfortunately, this takes a lot of feats, especially if your want TWF for those times you get cornered and need to make a full attack.

If you give a it detail about the sort of rogue you want to play, I'm sure we can come up with a cool build for you. (If you want/ need the help of course).


If you want to feint, go with the Invisible Blade prestige class from Complete Warrior. It's only a 5 level prestige class and you'll get feint as a free action plus some other goodies. Only problem with it is the completely stupid prereqs.


Well i'm either going to make a sorcerer or rogue. It would be great if you guys could help me make the rogue build. I wanted to make a heavily skilled rogue. I was thinking just one weapon like a rapier, so i could have more accuracy, and have high dex and use weapon finesse so i can use a bow as well. Then i was thinking of using feint to take away peoples dex. Also tumbling out of trouble to not get attacks of opportunity against me. And then tumbling around opponents engaged against the barbarian to flank them. I also wanted to pick up skill tricks from the complete scoundrel. I'm really not sure though all the feats i should take though.

What skills and feats should i take? I'm aiming to be as tricky as possible.


Can you flank an opponent with a ranged weapon? For example can you be on the opposite side the fighter is engaging the enemy a few spaces back and be considered flanking?


Blade402 wrote:
Can you flank an opponent with a ranged weapon? For example can you be on the opposite side the fighter is engaging the enemy a few spaces back and be considered flanking?

Nope.

Best bet for ranged SA (sneak attack) is to fire from hiding or just shoot them before they get to act in initiative (while they are still flat-foot).

Thus, I suggest Improved Initiative as your first level feat.

I would suggest against Improved Feint, merely because it takes another feat to get (Combat Expertise). Being able to feint as a move action is not worth 2 feats, simply not worth it.

Weapon Finesse at 3rd is a great option, but only if you find yourself in melee a lot. It all depends on how you plan to play or actually end up playing the rogue. I always take it with my rogues, but I tend to end up in melee a lot. A buddy of mine is the opposite, he'll never be in melee unless he is sure he'll get backstab and that the enemy will be concetrating on someone else. The guy hides in shadows with his bow a lot, in my opinion missing out on lots of the combat.

Another suggestion, when on point scouting, carry a dagger as your primary weapon (for melee, drop it and use the rapier). Great thing Weapon Finesse is it now applies to all LIGHT weapons + rapier and some others. With Imp Init, when scouting if you start in a surprise round with a foe, you have the option to throw the dagger for SA in the opening round rather than needing to close to melee with a rapier and you are still armed for melee (unlike leading with a bow out).

I don't have time for my thoughts on rogue skills, someone else can tackle that. Tumble is KEY however (at least until your modifier is 24).

-c


I'm gonna go with Evil Genius and say Invisible blade, and for MORE face-to-face sneak attacking, take Acrobatic Backstab from Complete Scoundrel. I'm known for building good melee rogues!


Deathedge wrote:
I'm gonna go with Evil Genius and say Invisible blade, and for MORE face-to-face sneak attacking, take Acrobatic Backstab from Complete Scoundrel. I'm known for building good melee rogues!

In the group I play in now we have a ranged rogue and I have to say they do a lot less damage than a melee rogue. He get's sneak attack maybe once a fight because he usually wins initiative but beyond that it's difficult to set up a sneak attack at range. On top of that it seems to have less flare from a role playing point of view. IT's more of a point and shoot vs a dynamic move around the battle field to position for sneak attack. Granted I'm just expressing my opinion based on the current game I'm playing in. I'm sure there are more skilled folks that can make ranged rogues deal out tons of damage.


Evil Genius wrote:
If you want to feint, go with the Invisible Blade prestige class from Complete Warrior. It's only a 5 level prestige class and you'll get feint as a free action plus some other goodies. Only problem with it is the completely stupid prereqs.

Beware, the Complete Warrior Errata has a little precision : you can feint as a free action only once per round.


Blade402 wrote:

Well i'm either going to make a sorcerer or rogue. It would be great if you guys could help me make the rogue build. I wanted to make a heavily skilled rogue. I was thinking just one weapon like a rapier, so i could have more accuracy, and have high dex and use weapon finesse so i can use a bow as well. Then i was thinking of using feint to take away peoples dex. Also tumbling out of trouble to not get attacks of opportunity against me. And then tumbling around opponents engaged against the barbarian to flank them. I also wanted to pick up skill tricks from the complete scoundrel. I'm really not sure though all the feats i should take though.

What skills and feats should i take? I'm aiming to be as tricky as possible.

There are many, many ways to go with a rogue. We will still need a bit more information but here is a preliminary build idea, let me know what you think, and we can change it to suit.

The first thing that is needed is stats, I'll assume 28 point buy.
What books can you use? (I'll assume Core + Completes)
What Race do you want to be? I would suggest halfling, although human and elf also work (but elf not so much for melee). The best race for rogues is clearly whisper gnome (Races of Stone), but your DM may not allow it.

Sounds like you actually want to play a Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) instead of a rogue. With 3 levels of Rogue, and a feat from Complete Scoundrel (Daring Outlaw), you can get full sneak attack with your Swashbuckler. It makes the ideal melee rogue.

But for a more rogue build, I would go

Rogue 1 - Dodge
Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse (B)
Swash 2 - Mobility
Swash 3 - Insightful strike
Rogue 2
Rogue 3 - Spring Attack

From there, go straight rogue, taking whatever feats you like. Maybe TWF, Improved Initiative.

For Stats, (Before modifiers):- 12, 16, 14, 14, 8, 10

Skills:- Max out Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, UMD, and whatever else matches your concept for the character.


What does the swashbuckler add that is better than the rogue?


Blade402 wrote:
What does the swashbuckler add that is better than the rogue?

I assume you mean the difference between Rogue3 / Swah 17, and Swash 3 / Rogue 17?

Basically Swashbuckler adds FULL BAB and d10 Hitdice. Two very much needed things if you are going to be in melee alot. This would just about make it possible for you to stand toe to toe with most guys you will be fighting.

It depends on which part of the rogue you want to emphasise. The sneaking, trap disabler, or the Charismatic Combat Opportunist?

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Community / Gaming / D&D 3.5/d20/OGL / Question about rogue build All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in D&D 3.5/d20/OGL

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.