Am I all alone?


4th Edition

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Am I all alone when I say that I'm excited about 4th edition? I read the posts and watched the videos, and I'm still excited. I know that people cried and complained when third edition came out too..."man now I have too buy all new books"..."these new rules suck"...and my favorite..."This isn't DND!!!". But when I look around most of these people are playing 3rd edition, dispite all of their complaining.

I was hearing all of the changes and I was getting excited, I can't wait to try it out. I'm jockying for position to try to be first in line.

Just because you have a bunch of books from 3.5 doesn't mean you won't use them, I still use 1st edition books.

Why are you guys so upset?


Evil War God wrote:
Am I all alone when I say that I'm excited about 4th edition?

No, but you DO seem to be in the minority...

Evil War God wrote:
I read the posts and watched the videos, and I'm still excited. I know that people cried and complained when third edition came out too...
Honestly, I don't recall many complaints about 3e (in fact, I remember more resistance to 2e than to 3e!) - it was due.

Now, 3.5... The furor over that is still going around in some circles...

Evil War God wrote:
"man now I have too buy all new books"..."these new rules suck"...and my favorite..."This isn't DND!!!".

It really isn't the same game at all - it's kind of a Dungeons & Dragons/Storyteller hybrid; 4.0 LOOKS to be a 3.0/MMRPG hybrid...

Evil War God wrote:
But when I look around most of these people are playing 3rd edition, dispite all of their complaining.

I'm no fan of 3e, but I'll play whatever I can get into...

Evil War God wrote:


Why are you guys so upset?

On THIS site, a lot of the upset is still fallout from the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon spilling over into discussion of the game system changes, and lingering outrage that the WotC staff said that either 4.0 was distant on the horizon, or not even in the sites back in February, then announced it's release in August (though, I suspect they were ordered to make both statements by Hasbro).

On other sites, there's still lingering outrage from the shifts to all previous editions...

Also, for some of us, there's the financial angle - I never "upgraded" to 3.5 because I never had the money for the books (I've actually RUN 3.5 though!).


RECIPE: 4e Outrage

Some outrage lingers from the losses of Dragon and Dungeon, and that will linger for quite a while, with a flare-up next year to be expected.

So far, the marketing gurus involved in selling 4E haven't done a good job of selling a new edition to the rest of us (as a general statement). In addition, no one likes being lied to, and to some extent it can be argued that the powers-that-be did that with the statement that no new edition was in the works (beginning of year) to be followed with the big GenCon announcement. Finally, the efforts to market 4E have largely been of this sort:

"Your old game? Hah! Look at the problems! It's outmoded, outdated, obsolete! The new 4E will be better!"

To be followed by a point of fluff which is not substantiated by crunch.

Throw into this mix complaints about upgrading to a new edition that involve money, as many of us don't have the money to just go out and buy a whole new set of rulebooks whenever someone creates a new edition.

Mix well, turn up the heat with new announcements every so often, watch the fat fly.

At this point, much of the material we've seen has been like a movie trailer: lots of action, cute scenes, and explosions to entice you into seeing the movie. The problem is that we've all seen a cool trailer that made us go see a movie-to find that the scenes in the trailer were the only good scenes of the movie. I think that we've got some fears this is the case here as well, since we don't have the whole product (or really any product) to look at for the whole picture.


I am wildly excited, balanced against the marketing strategy of poisoning the well of 3.5 enjoyment. As the months go by, I expect WOTC to point out more and more little ways in which 3.5 is broken or wrong and that they're going to fix them this time, with all my hope for continuing to play D&D being anchored on those two words: "this time."

Basically, I expect that, well before next June, I am going to be done with 3.5. I'm practically there already. I'll keep running just to keep my group together, but once the new rules come out, I'll read through them. If they've written a game I want to run, game on. If not, that should free up some time on Saturday evenings.


I'm interested to see how the final version of 4E turns out, though I'm not in love with a lot of things in there. The changes to the races, classes and things like that bother me but I plan on looking at the final version before I make any conclusions.

It does seem like WotC/Hasbro are looking to court the MMORPG crowd by building a game more focused on branching out in that direction. It may be the way that the hobby is evolving; fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view.


Evil War God wrote:

Am I all alone when I say that I'm excited about 4th edition? I read the posts and watched the videos, and I'm still excited. I know that people cried and complained when third edition came out too..."man now I have too buy all new books"..."these new rules suck"...and my favorite..."This isn't DND!!!". But when I look around most of these people are playing 3rd edition, dispite all of their complaining.

I was hearing all of the changes and I was getting excited, I can't wait to try it out. I'm jockying for position to try to be first in line.

Just because you have a bunch of books from 3.5 doesn't mean you won't use them, I still use 1st edition books.

Why are you guys so upset?

CEBrown covered most of the points but one that is still a big stickler for a lot of people is that they really like and are genuinely happy with 3E. I suspect that for most of those people (myself included) they don't understand why a whole new edition is needed. Could 3E be improved? Sure. Is a whole new edition needed to do so? I think many would say no. So for many it comes down to being pretty happy with what we have and not really convinced that a new edition is needed so soon after 3.5.

The article in the spoiler below is one of my biggest problems with WoTC right now.

Spoiler:

Why I'm Thankful
by Bill Slavicsek
11/21/2007
Ampersand Archive

As the Thanksgiving holiday approaches, I've been thinking about what makes me thankful in regards to my work here at Wizards of the Coast. Not only do I have the coolest, most fun job in the world (at least as far as I'm concerned), but I get to interact with an amazing collection of talented individuals on an hour-to-hour basis. From the R&D teams to the Brand Teams, Sales to Finance, Creative and Production Services, and our various support teams, Wizards is all about creativity and imagination, and I'm thankful that I get to work in this environment every day.

I'm also thankful, as far as work is concerned, that we're getting closer and closer to putting the finishing touches on the first 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons products, and I'm thrilled at how those products are coming together. Our playtests have been running very well, with a good mix of reactions ranging from "that's cool," to "that works fine," and even some "that needs work." Just the kind of reactions we hope to see, reactions that help us refine and improve the game one rules mechanic at a time. To everyone who's participated and provided feedback, you have my heartfelt thanks. You're helping us make the best product possible, and I appreciate the effort.

And speaking of getting close, this is the time when we begin to share more detailed information with D&D players everywhere. I'm thankful that we can finally start to open up a little more and let you see what we're working on, so to speak. Some of this takes the form of a couple of preview products that are about to release, as well as the newest set of D&D miniatures, Desert of Desolation, which debuted two weeks ago.
Preview Products

Wizards Presents: Races and Classes hits the store shelves in a couple of weeks. This is the first of two 4th Edition preview products designed to provide you with a behind-the-curtain glimpse of the making of the 4th Edition of the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game. (The second is Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters, on sale in January.) Full of concept art, designer essays, and insights into R&D's thinking, Races and Classes previews the new version of the game from a player's perspective.

Races and Classes provides a bunch of great information and reveals a number of secrets, including:

* The nature and first look at the as-yet-unrevealed new player character race.
* A timeline of the design and development of 4th Edition, including notes from the design team.
* The top-secret 4th Edition design tenets.
* An overview of Player Handbook classes and power sources.
* A preview of classes slated for future development after the launch of the Player's Handbook.
* All kinds of background information, in-world stories, and anecdotes about what it takes to create a new edition.

Check out Races and Classes (and its companion volume, Worlds and Monsters) for amazing artwork, intriguing spoilers, and a ton of information on what's coming in the new edition -- from the first set of core books to future products later in the line. I know all this stuff, and I couldn't stop reading. Not only is it fascinating material, but it got my mind racing about characters I want to play and campaigns I want to run using the new edition. I think you'll have the same reaction.
Desert of Desolation

The newest set of D&D miniatures, Desert of Desolation, provides a different kind of look at 4th Edition. First off, every creature in the set exists in 4th Edition D&D and almost all of them will appear in the first Monster Manual. (One monster receives special treatment and will get its first updated statistics on D&D Insider.)

Second, this set showcases the first of our updates to the look and feel of D&D monsters. Now, when a monster looks just great, we've left it alone. But in cases where we felt we could improve the look of a monster, we've taken this opportunity to do so. Our new look for angels, for example, debuts in this set with the Angel of Vengeance. It's otherworldly, looks powerful, and has just the right mix of awe-inspiring and creepy to better define these servants of the gods. Another update can be seen in the Feral Troll, which continues the artistic evolution of one of the terrors of D&D that has been updated with each new edition of the game.

Third, this set reveals some monsters making their debut in 4th Edition. The Cyclops appears for the first time since 2nd Edition and looks fantastic, and the Fire Archon unleashes the first of a new elemental force on unsuspecting adventurers everywhere.

Finally, after thirteen sets, I've got my Gelatinous Cube at long last. I've been asking for this figure since the very beginning, and those early conversations got us to experiment with clear plastic and eventually led to the inclusion of the actual monster in this set. It's a great miniature, and it alone makes this set something special. Add those other elements I've talked about, and you begin to see why we're so excited about Desert of Desolation.

Of course, most of that focused on roleplaying. For skirmish players, this set marks the first time you'll be able to play the new edition of the D&D Miniatures Game. In January, we're putting the new rules online for everyone to use, and we're also providing updated stat cards for all of the figures in this set. Consider it our after-the-holidays gift to everyone who wants to start test-driving the new minis rules before the April launch.

That's all I've got time to talk about right now. Have a happy Thanksgiving and remember …

Keep playing!

--Bill Slavicsek

"You want more information? You want to know why we are making the changes that we are? You want some previews? Go buy our book. In fact, go buy two of them and a pack of minis."

That is bullshit. That is the information we should be getting for free on their site.

Oh, and for some reason, the only places to get consolidated 4E info is at EnWorld.org or dnd4.com, not the WoTC site.


I've developed a strong distaste for WotC, but I like the looks of 4E; the more I see, the more it seems it will successfully improve the game (personal opinion, of course).

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

I have cautious optimism for 4th. I'll give it a fair shake, as I did with 3rd, and see how it plays. It should be pretty clear if it is worth the effort or not. If it plays well I expect the transition to be pretty quick, there is really very little reason for me to stick with 3.x if 4th ends up being a better game. If 4th plays poorly I think it will be much more ugly. You will have people who will stick with 4th simply because it is what is 'official' and a large group sticking with 3.x because it is what plays better. Honestly I do hope 4th is a good game.


CEBrown wrote:


On THIS site, a lot of the upset is still fallout from the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon..

...that happened when the two mags had their best run ever, IMO. The mags were good back when under TSRs/WotCs guidance, sometimes better, sometimes worse, as always in a periodical. Paizo did an excellent job with these mags. Now? They are pretty much dead - I discover that I just don´t like to read the stuff they publish online, and printing everything? Not really.

Stefan


Evil War God wrote:

Am I all alone when I say that I'm excited about 4th edition? I read the posts and watched the videos, and I'm still excited. I know that people cried and complained when third edition came out too..."man now I have too buy all new books"..."these new rules suck"...and my favorite..."This isn't DND!!!". But when I look around most of these people are playing 3rd edition, dispite all of their complaining.

I was hearing all of the changes and I was getting excited, I can't wait to try it out. I'm jockying for position to try to be first in line.

Just because you have a bunch of books from 3.5 doesn't mean you won't use them, I still use 1st edition books.

Why are you guys so upset?

No, you're not alone, although I disagree with just about everything you said. :)

But, hey, at this point, if 4E floats your boat - enjoy it. With all my reservations about 4E, I hold no grudge or ill-will towards those who find it interesting. My issues are with WotC, not consumers.


I really did want to like 4th edition but as the preview go on and on it is sounding less and less to my taste, not that it will necessarily be a bad game but is developing in ways I don' find as interesting or compelling. My personal biggest gripe is with their new approach to monsters. The description about being able to mix and match monster to get a good encounter and that all monter will have a set role to help you out really irritated me. This kind of encounter design seems to not take into account any idea of stoy telling. The way they described it makes it sound as if it will be" Half a dozen orcs as brutes, two nagas as artillery and a mind flayer as a controller". Sure it may make a fun encounter but what the hell are they all doing together? Why would that happen? Why is the next room filled with a completely different seemingly random assortment of monsters?
Many of the previews made me think that they have designed this new edition with a very different mentality to the older ones and one that appeals less to me. While eveyone says it MMORPG I personal notice that the preview remind me far more of Warhammer Quest. It was a not particularly popular GW game made some years ago. It was a basic dungeon crawl game that was entertaining. Having said this was designed so you cou;ld play it with no roleplaying necessary. You had to roll for the inhabbitants of each room ad at the end of each dungeon level there was a Boss Room which had stronger/more opponents. Everything was generated by random tables and the general aim was to kill and loot as much stuff as you can. I only mention this out dated game because I get the impression that 4th edition is being designed with a similiar mentality and because several of the previews have reminded me of Warhammer Quest. If this is the designers approach to D&D so be it 'Quest was a pretty entertaining game, but I would say that when I first played quest I was barely ten and even then found it shallow. It's the reason I found D&D and I'd prefer if D&d din't attempt to become it.
Having said that while the direction they are going in may not be to my taste I'm still sure that they will be able to churn out a perfectly good, usable set of rules for it. I will probably give 4th edition a go but I don't see myself finding it better than third edition, different definatley but not neccessarily better. Still if it is good enough to be used by paizo as they continue to produce Pathfinder (whose design ethos seems to be much more to my liking) then I'll probably switch.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Cheddar Bearer wrote:
I really did want to like 4th edition but as the preview go on and on it is sounding less and less to my taste, not that it will necessarily be a bad game but is developing in ways I don' find as interesting or compelling.

I'm in a similar boat, but for me, the straw the really broke my back was Tieflings and Warlocks. I can accept just about any default D&D world where these are minor, relatively insignificant pieces since both require demonic/infernal influence. But with them both being part of the basic core assumptions, the game now assumes that demons/devils are this free to run around is not a D&D game I want to play in. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I'd LOVE it if it was a specific setting for D&D, but the 1e-3e core assumptions are kind of like my RPG security blanket.

The blankee just bit me.

Sovereign Court

I would be fine with it but...
1. Multiple core books (3 every year). waaayyyyy to much money.
2. Lowering amount of core classes. Thats really annoying, especially since now I have to buy the core books to get them.
3. Ridiculously idiotic fluff. Dumb planes, silly "wizard implements," and Bane. BANE!! I cant stand forgotten realms (sorry to all fans, I just dont like it). I know I don't need to use the fluff if I dont want to, but its stuck in the core books, so...

Oh yeah, and the new Dungeon and Dragon. Those are, uh... pretty bad. To say the least. The very very least.


I am very excited by some of the concepts in 4th Edition. However, I reserve judgment on the magnum opus itself until I see it.


Evil War God wrote:
Am I all alone when I say that I'm excited about 4th edition? I read the posts and watched the videos, and I'm still excited... Why are you guys so upset?

Why am I upset? Because, in a move which I find unfathomable, they took Dragon and Dungeon magazines from the best publishers they had, with no plan for maintaining the high quality we've come to expect and enjoy (or ability to do so, evidently). So my anger isn't about the release of 4/e, and a lot of people here agree.

Am I excited about 4/e? I might have been, but WotC is stumbling so profoundly on the DI that I've lost faith that they can do a good job. I think D&D has a good bit of room for improvement.

Edit: I might add that WotC's strategy on book releases seems too brazenly exploitative, maximizing profits very much at the expense of players. If I can't play D&D with three core books (the MM, in particular, sounds like it's going to lack a lot), I won't be buying anything. They say 4/e is, in part, about getting more players -- that won't happen if the game is LOTS more expensive.

I'm hopeful, but not excited (or optimistic). I'd like that to change.

Regards :)

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Tatterdemalion wrote:
They say 4/e is, in part, about getting more players -- that won't happen if the game is LOTS more expensive.

I do wonder how many new people they expect to get when the minis are now 50% more expensive? (going from $15 to $22 per pack)


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
...the minis are now 50% more expensive... (going from $15 to $22 per pack)

Seriously? I hadn't seen that. That is nuts if it is correct.

I started buying with Harbinger ($10), bought multiple cases of Archfiends. I was only mildly perturbed when the price jumped to $13; I still bought at least one case of each release. When the price went to $15, case buying went out the window for me; some releases I've purchases as few as two boosters. I can say with no hyperbole and completely certainty that increase to $22 would absolutely end my purchases.

Anyway, to respond to the original poster, I've been hoping for a new edition for a while, so I'm cautiously excited, but I'm not confident that they'll make a game I want to play. So at this point I'm just waiting for them to release enough detail to actually form an opinion. So I guess I'm excited for the possibilities, but concerned at the same time.


The $22 is for the Huge pack in July, IIRC.


In a word, yes. I am excited about the new edition!

Granted, I am something of a game design cannibal. I've never really been happy with the 3.5e ruleset, and have struggled for a long time to houserule/fix many problems that 4e looks like it will improve upon. In fact, I've written a variant player's handbook just to accomplish the task, a fact I'm quite proud of. If 4e can do a better job of improving the game than I did, or at least provide me with some crunchy new mechanics to sink my teeth into, then I'm going to be all for it.

I am also a huge Paizo fanboy and will support them in whatever path they take, so I really couldn't care either way in this regard.

In regards to Hasbro's decision to reformat Dungeon and Dragon magazines, I'll admit that I'm pretty disappointed at the current result, but I am overjoyed with the Pathfinder modules. In fact, I prefer the new Pathfinder content to that of the old magazines, for it is far less disjointed, more geared toward DMs, and has so far provided legendary quality. In this regard, I feel that I have gained more than was lost, and I am curious to see what WoTC does with their new online format once they... get their footing.

I have listened to the podcasts, I have read what little previews can be found, and I have to say I REALLY like the direction that they're taking the game.

As for all the changes to pantheon and stuff that people complain about... well, I never use fluff from the player's handbook anyway, instead pulling it all from campaign settings. Again, I'm a cannibal, so I really won't care either way here.

And to be fair, I think a lot of people are judging the game pretty harshly before they've even seen it. None of the preview books have been released yet, and so people have begun to speculate wildly about pretty much everything based on rumors and information leaks, much of which is even now subject to change wildly.

As for those who are afraid Hasbro will try to suck every last nickel and dime from their pockets, I really don't see how their business plans are any different than the swathe of splash books we have now, which in my opinion often should often be made "core."

Obviously, I'm indifferent to a lot of things that are driving people crazy right now, but I still believe that 4e is a step in the right direction, if nothing else. When all is said and done, I'm still itching to play 4e!


DMcCoy1693 wrote:

I'm in a similar boat, but for me, the straw the really broke my back was Tieflings and Warlocks. I can accept just about any default D&D world where these are minor, relatively insignificant pieces since both require demonic/infernal influence. But with them both being part of the basic core assumptions, the game now assumes that demons/devils are this free to run around is not a D&D game I want to play in.

Wait... but aren't the half-orcs the same way? I always assumed that the rarity of a race didn't matter. No matter how many player characters are half-orcs, the game still assumes that half-orcs are rare. And that's ok.

Besides, why shouldn't there be these kinds of options for a group of players who want to run an evil campaign right out of the book?

Also, roleplaying characters that are treated as outcasts in society can get pretty interesting. I never really bought into the idea of half-elves being treated as outcasts, but people descended from fiends would certainly fill that role.


newless cluebie wrote:

In regards to Hasbro's decision to reformat Dungeon and Dragon magazines, I'll admit that I'm pretty disappointed at the current result, but I am overjoyed with the Pathfinder modules. In fact, I prefer the new Pathfinder content to that of the old magazines, for it is far less disjointed, more geared toward DMs, and has so far provided legendary quality. In this regard, I feel that I have gained more than was lost, and I am curious to see what WoTC does with their new online format once they... get their footing.

I have listened to the podcasts, I have read what little previews can be found, and I have to say I REALLY like the direction that they're taking the game...

And to be fair, I think a lot of people are judging the game pretty harshly before they've even seen it. None of the preview books have been released yet, and so people have begun to speculate wildly about pretty much everything based on rumors and information leaks, much of which is even now subject to change wildly.

I like pathfinder and find it an improvement. However, to have some side adventures and the adventure path I'm spending far more a month. Plus its most likely I will need to learn a new rule set to use these products in the future ( I assume they will go 4e). My group isnt into new "crunchy bits", we play war games for that.

Also hows is it okay for you to really like the direction 4e is going, but other can't feel the opposite? The majority of things I've heard I don't like. At the same time, I understand why many people would. Im also not going to spend $40 dollars to buy two preivew books. Since the first is already leaked online at enworld, I'll look at that. In some ways Wizards is fueling a lot of this with a poor DI showing and having few answers about OGL or how the DI will work. I can buy that rules can be tweaked last minute, but the type of code the DI is going to use better not be a last minute thing

newless cluebie wrote:
As for those who are afraid Hasbro will try to suck every last nickel and dime from their pockets, I really don't see how their business plans are any different than the swathe of splash books we have now, which in my opinion often should often be made "core."

You pretty much answered your own question. :) I think its a matter of personal preference of core. Currently the splat books are not core. Now they and DI will be. So core and updates will require buying the handbooks and DI to get what some people consider the basics (we know they are leaving some old core out). Im curious how the OGL will be since they still haven't shared that information. Will it be possible for 3rd party publishers to use all core material? Or will they be restricted to the first 3 books? Will I need PHII or a DI paid account to understand some things refered to in the PHIII?

Just to clarify I'm happy many people like 4e, I hope it works for them. It be nice if it does work and gets more gamers into rpgs. I just see a lot of work to make it fit into my group for things that seem little gain. From their articles I don't see the improvement. Combine that with Wizards apparent floundering on their first great improvement aka online Dungeon and Dragon, its hard to be positive.


To reply to the original post--Yes, I am excited about 4th edition.

But with that said, I can understand how upset people are. It was not too long ago that the 3.5 books were released, and anyone looking for an evil corporate presence will have their fears justified.

Anyone that defines their hobby as "gaming" will find problems with any gaming system that is out there...and if you have found the perfect gaming system then stick with it. I have had problems with the D&D magic system all the way back to second edition--At low levels you cast a spell and stand around hoping not to get attacked--At Higher levels you cast bigger spells and then stand around hoping not to get attacked--and the Magic using types have no HP and no melee skills anyway. At least all the rumors to date have a magic system with an "At Will" "Per Encounter" "Per Day" use.

If you are not excited about the potential for good changes then stick to 3.5


Rick Ransom wrote:
If you are not excited about the potential for good changes then stick to 3.5

I think the problem for most is that modules/supplements will no longer be provided for 3.5, however there so much in 3.5 it can keep those who dislike 4e very busy.

After all its not like our old books get recalled :)


Arelas wrote:
After all its not like our old books get recalled :)

My imagination just ran with the idea of "what if they did?" [NOTE: I am not suggesting they will, or even might. My mind just played out the scene if they did get recalled.]

Can you picture the turmoil and violence? It would be staggering.


Disenchanter wrote:
Arelas wrote:
After all its not like our old books get recalled :)

My imagination just ran with the idea of "what if they did?" [NOTE: I am not suggesting they will, or even might. My mind just played out the scene if they did get recalled.]

Can you picture the turmoil and violence? It would be staggering.

I don't know, it might be funny to send them all the old books. I might be happy to give them some 2nd ed books and my 3rd ed PH/MM/DMG. They're just taking up space right now. And I'm all for recycling, whether it's paper or good ideas.


Arelas wrote:


Also hows is it okay for you to really like the direction 4e is going, but other can't feel the opposite? The majority of things I've heard I don't like.

...

Im also not going to spend $40 dollars to buy two preivew books.

...

You pretty much answered your own question. :) I think its a matter of personal preference of core. Currently the splat books are not core. Now they and DI will be.

Don't get me wrong -- all I'm really trying to get across is that a lot of aspects of 4e are still speculative at this point. Everyone has just as much right to hate it as I do to like it, but I'm against people jumping to conclusions.

Now, then. Are they really charging $20 per preview book? That's like... the same price I bought the 3.0 rulebooks at. And are they really releasing DI as exclusively core content? I must have missed that memo. Hmm... you've certainly got me. I think I was wrong about the costs.

Dark Archive

Well, they did say that any errata and rules updates would be through the DI. They have also stated that many books will have additional content you unlock with a code for a small fee on the DI. So the errata, plus some the Dragon content that will be core, as well as the web enchancements that used to be free, will all cost you a DI membership fee and then some. They are getting too greedy for my tastes even for a corporation.


I look forward to checking out the new system. However, I have enough material for 3.5 to keep my games running for another 20+ years, so if I hated it and decided to stick with the stuff I've got then it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm not sure why people are worried about the death of the hobby. As long as you have some dice, the core books, a gaming group and the desire to play the game can keep you going indefinitely. It's nothing to get you panties in bunch over.

The biggest killer of the game is when you run out of people to play with or when real life screws with people's schedules and you can't get together. That stuff I find is much more frustrating then a company deciding to release a new edition of a game. In my experience new editions are almost always more to my liking then the previous version, so I'm not too worried about a new game. Besides I can't keep up with all the prestiges classes, feats etc.. that proliferate the current edition, so starting from scratch and not having to worry about my players trying to draw from 20 different sources books will be nice change (of course that will get out of hand again pretty quick)


Arelas wrote:


Im also not going to spend $40 dollars to buy two preivew books. Since the first is already leaked online at enworld, I'll look at that.

Wait, what? Seriously? As in, actual pages from a book? As in, besides the art teasers?

Where is it? I must know!

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Had you asked me prior to the launch of e-Dragon and e-Dungeon, I would have been excited with you.

Now, I am cautiously optimistic at best.

I have been satisfied with the quality of WotC's products and think that the books at the end of the life cycle of 3e have been some of the best. I'm excited to see what they'd do with all the talent when not burdened by some of the less than ideal elements of 3e. I had, and still generally do have, a lot of confidence in their ability.

But then there was e-Dragon and e-Dungeon. When they killed the magazines, they told us something better was coming. Now they're telling us that it won't actually be ready until 4e launches. Which begs the question of why the cancellation could not have coincided with the 4e launch. They bungled that issue completely, and my confidence has been severely shaken as a result. I wonder - if they rushed to cancel the magazines without a clear plan and could not come up with a viable solution over the course of 6 months (or more), what does that mean for 4e? Is it being rushed? Will a crippled half-ass version launch in April to be updated some time later? I don't know and I no longer trust them enough to rely on their claims.

Speaking of which, their PR campaign is terrible at best, insulting at worst. I no longer even follow 4e news because they are not even bothering to release any. It's ridiculous that they are failing to hold onto someone like me, who has been gung-ho for 4e from day one. If they can't retain someone who's predisposed to liking their new edition, I can't help but wonder how they're going to retain people who were hostile to the idea before it was even announced.

So, no, you're not alone, but I am no where near as excited as I was back when they announced this thing.

And, you're also in the forums that seem to be the least interested in 4e. The WotC forums and ENWorld each have significantly larger pro-4e communities.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

newless cluebie wrote:
Wait... but aren't the half-orcs the same way? I always assumed that the rarity of a race didn't matter. No matter how many player characters are half-orcs, the game still assumes that half-orcs are rare. And that's ok.

I've never assumed that that. Rarer then humans, sure, but more common then then half-ogres, whisper gnomes, tieflings, aasmars, drow (outside of drow society), and illuminiti.

newless cluebie wrote:

Besides, why shouldn't there be these kinds of options for a group of players who want to run an evil campaign right out of the book?

Also, roleplaying characters that are treated as outcasts in society can get pretty interesting. I never really bought into the idea of half-elves being treated as outcasts, but people descended from fiends would certainly fill that role.

Nothing wrong with either of these. But why do these have to be assumed. I'm assuming that they're going to allow "good warlocks" (there's a contradiction in terms). My problem is that the base assumptions are changed, and I don't like those changes on the D&D label. Having the options available, sure, but not as base assumptions.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

newless cluebie wrote:
Wait, what? Seriously? As in, actual pages from a book? As in, besides the art teasers?

No, just the information. Each of the PHB races lives in the a specific area (Human: plains, halflings: rivers/swamps, dwarves: under a mountain, etc). Translation: Dragonborn (the previously unannounced race) are a major force in the world. So are Tieflings. They have a culture, a favored environment, etc.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

newless cluebie wrote:
Now, then. Are they really charging $20 per preview book?

Dungeon Survival Guide: 96 pages, recycled artwork from 3.x, no crunch, MSRP 19.99.

Guess where you're going to see the artwork from the two preview books? PHB, DMG, and MMI.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not targetting what you're saying or trying to pile on, you just had some good, one-line statements that were good for quoting.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
It would be nice to play in a game system where everyone is able to do cool things in combat at all levels of play.

HERO

GURPS
Most Storyteller games

P.H. Dungeon wrote:
I like playing warriors, but find that they start to get boring after a while because their bag of tricks is a lot more limited than a spellcasters.

Ah, then you are the 4E target audience...

P.H. Dungeon wrote:
The key is to make the warriors options feel like they come from his combat skill and aren't some funky supernatural power that he has suddenly gained.

On this I agree 100%; Fighters should gain more than just hit points and a better chance to hit; they should be able to evade and parry better than anyone else as they gain experience, and maybe even do ripostes/counterstrike (essentially sacrifice initiative to get a bonus to defense and to hit) and similar maneuvers

P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Example- you have massive, plodding dragon turtle with limited movement ability, but a high reflex save just because of the sheer ammount of HD the creature has, when it doesn't make sense that it could be evading fireballs.

Heh - something that made SENSE in previous editions (Tougher - i.e. higher HD - creatures are more resistant to stuff, so get better saves) becomes silly when the saves are based on attributes that they shouldn't have, true...

P.H. Dungeon wrote:
What about spell DCs? At high levels it is very tricky for spellcasters to get their DCs up high enough that the monsters will fail them, so a lot of spells become useless because the critters nearly always make their saves.

This has ALWAYS been a problem with higher-level spells; the more "fun" the spell is (for the caster), the higher level they had to be to cast it, and the more likely they were to face monsters that failed their saves on a 1-3 on d20...

I doubt they're going to do much to fix it, but hope so...
P.H. Dungeon wrote:
It is also difficult to get one's AC up high enough that monsters aren't constantly hitting you at higher levels (at least without extensive buffs, items and benefits from feats and prestige classes).

Again an OLD problem - 16+ HD creatures hit an AC of 0 on an unmodified roll of 3 or 4+

P.H. Dungeon wrote:
You would think that being a more skillful warrior would allow you to parry or avoid more blows, but it doesn't. In order to not get hit in 3E you have to be walking around in the heaviest armour you can find glowing with magical items and buff...

Again, an OLD problem with the system, one I hope gets addressed well, but have a sneaking suspicion it won't...

Now, I'm HOPING they make a good game, at least as good as 3.x, and I hope it's successful. But I have strong doubts that it WILL be that good, and even stronger doubts that it would appeal to me personally (and doubt I'm in a minority with this view).


Sebastian wrote:


I have been satisfied with the quality of WotC's products and think that the books at the end of the life cycle of 3e have been some of the best.

Have you read some of the latest Forgotten Realms products they did, like Mysteries of the Moonsea? Because it was, in my opinion, total crap! I mean, 20 or so boring adventure hooks, 4 cities described over 4 pages....Berk!

Liberty's Edge

Griselame wrote:
Have you read some of the latest Forgotten Realms products they did, like Mysteries of the Moonsea? Because it was, in my opinion, total crap! I mean, 20 or so boring adventure hooks, 4 cities described over 4 pages....Berk!

Beauty is in the hands of the Dungeon Master. I've been running my Saturday twice-a-month D&D campaign with this booke for exactly 1 year this week and the players and I are having a great time, I've found it to be the perfect adventure framework for me to build upon.

But no, by the way, I don't look forward to 4E and have decided WotC did all their best stuff with 3.5 and now they're going to release a mushfest. A vote of No Confidence in Chancellor WotC's 'leadership'.

-DM Jeff


Sebastian wrote:


It's ridiculous that they are failing to hold onto someone like me, who has been gung-ho for 4e from day one.

To be fair Sebastian, you were actually pro 4th edition before there was an offical announcement of 4th edition. Just saying . . .


Lathiira wrote:

RECIPE: 4e Outrage

Some outrage lingers from the losses of Dragon and Dungeon, and that will linger for quite a while, with a flare-up next year to be expected.

So far, the marketing gurus involved in selling 4E haven't done a good job of selling a new edition to the rest of us (as a general statement). In addition, no one likes being lied to, and to some extent it can be argued that the powers-that-be did that with the statement that no new edition was in the works (beginning of year) to be followed with the big GenCon announcement. Finally, the efforts to market 4E have largely been of this sort:

"Your old game? Hah! Look at the problems! It's outmoded, outdated, obsolete! The new 4E will be better!"

To be followed by a point of fluff which is not substantiated by crunch.

Throw into this mix complaints about upgrading to a new edition that involve money, as many of us don't have the money to just go out and buy a whole new set of rulebooks whenever someone creates a new edition.

Mix well, turn up the heat with new announcements every so often, watch the fat fly.

At this point, much of the material we've seen has been like a movie trailer: lots of action, cute scenes, and explosions to entice you into seeing the movie. The problem is that we've all seen a cool trailer that made us go see a movie-to find that the scenes in the trailer were the only good scenes of the movie. I think that we've got some fears this is the case here as well, since we don't have the whole product (or really any product) to look at for the whole picture.

You're certainly right about the DRAGON/DUNGEON outrage. That likely as not brought down interest in anything WotC did. Some even boycotted it. Me included.

But there's another factor in this. A lot of people hate the very notion of 4.0, hate the ideas, the books, the very number '4'.
But they still take it.
Why is this? Because everyone who's introduced to D&D will likely be introduced to the new version. Thus, a lot of D&D stuff--even OGC--will be 4.0.
I suspect that that contributes greatly to the amount of folk who buy 4.0.


Evil War God wrote:
Am I all alone?

Yes! We are but figments of your imagination, illusions your mind made up when it went insane from the loneliness. You doubt, therefore you might be - or not, not sure.

;-P

Evil War God wrote:


Why are you guys so upset?

I have quite a lot of reasons to be upset, even pissed off big time:

- From what I've heard, it seems as if they not just ignore over 30 years of D&D history, they actively try and change as much of it as possible. Sever all ties to what D&D has been for years.

- They're messing up my previously favourite Campaign Setting: Forgotten Realms. They violently hammer the square FR into round 4e: Instead of just re-explaining FR with 4e-rules, they make changes (and huge, world-shattering ones) for everything so the whole setting fits the 4e rules (instead of going the right way and make the rules fit the setting). For me, those aren't the Realms I came to love.

- I loathe their marketing strategy. They keep on saying how bad 3e was, and now they've fixed all the big, glaring errors it had (nevermind that they're the very company who made those alleged errors) and everything they say makes me think they consider D&D players a bunch of brain-dead idiots incapable of cognitive feats you wouldn't put past stupid monkeys.

- I dislike almost every bit of flavour they've revealed is changed in 4e, and many of the rules changes (those beyond the most basic ones) don't sit too well with me, either. I don't like how classes become much more specialised than before now, and races become much more stereotyped.

- Several of my favourite character options (gnome, druid!) will be gone, and completely useless ones will be core (yes, dragonborn).

- I've come to dislike the company itself.

- One of the most important traits 3e has seems to be missing in 4e: universal appeal. 3e can be used for many different worlds and ideas and assumptions. 4e is supposed to be played with their world, or one very much like it, with their races and classes, with their concept of "points of light"

- I hate the term "points of light"

- One of the most important aspects of d20 3e seems to be gone: In the "good old days", Wizards made it easy for other companies to use d20 rules for their own ideas and worlds. But now, they seem to want the whole pie for themselves. I guess this is because they have seen that they just can't compete with many of those other companies in several aspects. Example: Look at adventures: Paizo, Necromancer, and others wipe the floor with Wizards' adventures. What good adventures did WotC release? Whenever I ask that I only hear about Red Hand of Doom. And that one was done by Paizo's own James Jacobs.

- The big 4e change of creature looks, which neatly "coincides" with the release of a set that has mostly "basic" stuff (and probably lots of figures that have been here one way or another) seems to me an attempt to sell more minis - the old ones won't look like official D&D critters any more, and since their minis rules will be changed (and the old figures won't get new stats), you can't use them for the minis game, either. Bought a couple of thousand minis for several thousand dollars so you could play the minis game and have minis that look exactly like D&D critters? Well, you can buy them all over again, because now they're no longer looking like the critters in the books.


To put it plainly, I probably will play 4e if three things come up:
-Paizo is able to switch. I love Paizo's world and Paizo's products, so I'm going where they go.
-If the rules are really as simple and fun as they're being made out to be.
-My group is willing to switch. Most of them would rather stay with 3.5 at this point, it seems.

What I don't like about 4e is the fact that they are changing flavor around waaaaay too much. I think someone used the phrase that they were "slaughtering the sacred cows of D&D" or something, and I'm inclined to believe this is true.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

KnightErrantJR wrote:


To be fair Sebastian, you were actually pro 4th edition before there was an offical announcement of 4th edition. Just saying . . .

I did not mean to imply that I wasn't. I don't have a problem with regular edition changes in general, provided that they improve the game.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:


You're certainly right about the DRAGON/DUNGEON outrage. That likely as not brought down interest in anything WotC did. Some even boycotted it. Me included.
But there's another factor in this. A lot of people hate the very notion of 4.0, hate the ideas, the books, the very number '4'.
But they still take it.
Why is this? Because everyone who's introduced to D&D will likely be introduced to the new version. Thus, a lot of D&D...

I'm at this point disappointed with what they've shown but I know that the best thing to do to make up my mind on 4E is to actually get the books and read them. Bad marketing has brought down many a good idea, after all.

But I still won't forgive the loss of Dragon and Dungeon as print magazines, however logical and sensible it may be.

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:


To be fair Sebastian, you were actually pro 4th edition before there was an offical announcement of 4th edition. Just saying . . .
I did not mean to imply that I wasn't. I don't have a problem with regular edition changes in general, provided that they improve the game.

Yeah, he's been pie taunting me for long before they even gutted the magazines and left them to die on the cold ground, steaming.......

(musak plays)..................................................................... ........................................................................... ........................................................................... .and everything.


I may be overly simplistic, but I won't know if I'll like 4e - or buy it - until I see it. Sure its fun to predict the direction the game will go, to guess if it'll be "better" or "worse" (YMMV), but ulitmately, its a fruitless excercise until we see the final product.

Of course, bragging rights and being able to say "I told you so" in June is not to be overlooked!


MaxSlasher26 wrote:
that they were "slaughtering the sacred cows of D&D"

I wouldn't be too concerned if a couple of sacred cows were to be turned into juicy hamburgers. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

But they're not slaughtering them. They're wiping them out. Exterminating them. 4e's a Sacred HoloCOWst. We can just hope for Bovine Intervention.


Sebastian wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:


To be fair Sebastian, you were actually pro 4th edition before there was an offical announcement of 4th edition. Just saying . . .
I did not mean to imply that I wasn't. I don't have a problem with regular edition changes in general, provided that they improve the game.

I was just kidding with you and reinforcing your point at the same time. Mayhap I need to work on my internet "tone." I hate making my own emoticons . . .

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

KnightErrantJR wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:


To be fair Sebastian, you were actually pro 4th edition before there was an offical announcement of 4th edition. Just saying . . .
I did not mean to imply that I wasn't. I don't have a problem with regular edition changes in general, provided that they improve the game.
I was just kidding with you and reinforcing your point at the same time. Mayhap I need to work on my internet "tone." I hate making my own emoticons . . .

Ah, my mistake. And yes, that's true, their failure is pretty dramatic when I would prefer a completely unknown 4e over what they have announced.


I also hate the fact that everything is designed around what role you play in a group. I hate the idea of roles and hard-coding them into the mechanics of the system is going to really turn me off from the system. But, as much as I don't like most of what I have heard I am more than willing to wait and take a look at it once it gets released.

The best thing that i have heard so far is that AoO's have either been removed or severely curtailed which is great because once you get rid of AoO then you definitely have no need of miniatures and that would make me happy.


Personally, I've settled into a place of indifference towards 4th ed.

My players and I have a good number of campaign ideas and character concepts we want to explore — all of which are based in 3.5. On top of that, we've become disillusioned with pre-fab settings and are concentrating purely on my homebrew world. In short, nothing WotC is doing is in harmony with our game, so there's nothing to draw our interest. Maybe in a few years the story will be different; but not now...

The Exchange

You are not alone. I am also looking forward to the new edition.

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