Ok; over the years I have run both good and evil groups in campaigns; am currently running two games with mostly the same players and damned if the night we play the evil campaign is the most whiney, gripey, fill in the blanks, night of every gaming complaint you can think of, well they dont call me names or anything, but:
the mobs are too tuff
we are gonna die (so I should attack player x when he is weak so he dies too)
my character doesnt make alliances, i want to beat everyone into submission
Can I play this template instead, mine is too wimpy
Can you expand my spell list (so I can have several classes spellsat once)
Can I have some secret levels nobody else knows about?
I (warrior) am not using that magic sword; i use axes
But with my stealth, nobody should be able to see me standing here in the swamp in this puddle of water with all my muddy tracks around right out here in the this open spot
hehe; these are just some examples this I hear all the time. In good campaigns the tone is more like:
wow; we are in it now
we are gonna die
anybody got a plan
hey lets try this
has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?
Those aren't players playing evil characters. Those are players playing stupid characters.
Just because a character is chaotic or evil or even both doesn't mean they'll randomly decide to stab their allies in the back. It's idiotic. I played with some other players in the Shackled City AP a group of 6 Necromancers. We worked extremely well with eachother, we used a lot of teamwork and in some areas had to use a bit of tactical finesse. But we kicked ass. We didn't do stupid s+#& like kill commoners or go on murdering sprees just because. Actually, we did our very best to make it look like we were goodguy hereos in public. We had our own reasons for saving the city of Cauldron.
All in all though I'd say it was a lot of fun. You just have to have a socially mature group.
If you've ever read the DRAGONLANCE chronicles, they would be a great example. Raistlin is evil, but he is careful about it and helps his friends.
If you think about it evil characters are like advance emo kids. I mean they are all dark and want to be cool, but just end up looking stupid and not fitting in.(Cut Cut Cut)
Yes I have. I find that people that gravitate to evil characters do so for two (...err three) reasons.
1) The wish to play someone (or something) which is not themselves. They dive into the character and try to make them "work". This means the get along with the party and can function in society (at some significant level). They try to make them real people.
2) They don't like restrictions. They want to do whatever they want. That want to be selfish and say "Well I'm just playing my alignment. Blah blah blah." They do things that hurt the party and group experience because they don't want the work of making a realistic evil character. They are lazy.
3) They don't understand. They believe the stereotypes. Evil will always consume itself and such. True in the long run but they make it sound like the dishonest merchant would kill your babies if you gave them the chance cause evil means a cyborg-killing-machine-with-the-brain-of-a-psychopath-which-was-teleported- directly-from-the-abyss right?
I find that people that want to play "evil" characters (see 2 & 3 versions not 1) in a group game (that isn't a let's-see-who-can-survive-this-den-of-thievery type of game) are being lazy and selfish. Even a "evil characters allowed" game should be understode to mean a "evil characters allowed but must still fit within the group to allow everyone to have fun" game (unless otherwise intended).
Now I probally have stepped on some toes but tough. One of my favourite characters I have ever played was evil. But he made the game fun for everyone else too. He wasn't a psychopath or sociopath. I believe it can be done and done well but darn it most people aren't looking for depth or to make it work. They are looking for freedom and being impulsive and benefiting themselves.
Just lazy and selfish.
has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?
It's just you!
Well, not just you, but it's certainly not the rule. It can be a tendancy, though. Some players use evil charcters (or that old favourite, CN) as an excuse to be an asshat in character. Even if, normally, they're quite good players. Having an evil party should not be an excuse to turn everything into a PvP scenario, and that's exactly what it sounds like your players are trying to do.
You might point out to them that the Orcs/Goblinoids/whatever the villains are in your good campaigns manage to work together (heck, even Drow can manage occasionally!)
I've run or played in several evil parties over the years; several of them working for some larger evil force (two were Galactic Imperial TIE Fighter units, one (admittedly not a game in anger)served Sauron and the most recent working for the BBEG of our good-aligned party in the same campaign world).
The only group which failed was one in which the DM (not me) was actively encouraging this kind of in-fighting, and ultimately, the campaign collapsed because it was too hard. I even swapped by CE Rogue out for an Anti-Paladin just so that I could try and hold the game together.
My advice is tell your players when they make their characters that they can be as evil as they like - but only OUTSIDE the party (but that trying to kill/loot/rape everything will have logical consequences). The party should always have a reason not to fight each other (even if they don't have to like each other). (This actually applies to non-evil parties, too.) If you can get them shifted back to a co-operative mindset, you hopefully will find they'll stop whinging about personal power and trying to backstab each other and the issue should go away.
Myself, I generally forbid anyone from playing CE or CN unless I'm absolutely convinced the player in question can do it maturely and in a non-party damaging way (that includes me too!) as they are most often the easiest excuse to be stupid. ("It's what my character would do" is usually a clear sign of asshattery.)
Unless played by a veteran barbarian, or even, dare I say it a bard, CN can work without disastrous affects. Unfortunatly it is usually the new inexpirienced players who choose CN, and that causes lots of trouble; mostly because they do not know in game restraint, and are probably not thinking, "If i do this will i, and or my party get killed if i do this?"
My friend plays an evil-aligned rogue in my Styes campaign. In a party with a paladin. I bent some code of conduct rules because I like the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser-esque angle where they don't like each other but they work together because there's no one else as competent. He watches his behavior most of the time around his comrades and keeps the blackmail, thievery, Vecna worship and skullduggery off camera (or out of the party's view). Though he does things that are suspect: disrespect toward the dead, callousness toward the living and a willingness to take any action to ensure success, none of it is directed at fellow party members. I haven't found him or his good-aligned partner to be whiny at all: he hasn't used his alignment as a real crutch (in part because I'm all too willing to accommodate him) or for a prestige class or anything. This is the first long-term evil character we have used, however.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Looks like you've got a ruthless, back-stabbing party there, dude.
They tend to be whiny (a) so that you'll feel sorry for them and give them secret levels and cool toys so that they can back-stab their fellows, and (b) so that the other ruthless back-stabbing fellows decide they're not enough of a danger to pick on.
You want to panic one of them? Start having NPCs express admiration about how seriously cool and powerful he is. Hint that he must have secret levels or hidden cool toys.
Why, yes, I have played the AMBER diceless RPG. Why do you ask?
Ok; over the years I have run both good and evil groups in campaigns; am currently running two games with mostly the same players and damned if the night we play the evil campaign is the most whiney, gripey, fill in the blanks, night of every gaming complaint you can think of... has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?
Sounds like they're just really bad at being evil. Instead of whining, they should go get what they want -- through subterfuge, stealing, assasination... whatever works. Instead, they seem to be asking you for it.
My opinion :)
"Nice magic sword you have there, Mister NPC. Here, have a sip of this tasty ale. Smell of bitter almonds? No, I didn't notice -- nothing to worry about..."
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Obviously the party is evil - you've said as much.
But why are they evil?
Usually people want to play evil characters to do things that they'd never do in a 'good' or 'serious' campaign. For example, the Duke that hires the party is kind of a jerk. In a normal campaign the players grumble and move on. In an evil game they can plot his assassination and their rise to power.
I don't know what your game is like, but if they're being evil because they want to kick ass without regard to consequences,and you could enjoy that kind of game - go with it.
For example, you can let them make 10th level characters and take out the iconics leaving Droskar's Crag with the children - creating the illusion that they're heroes.
well; thanks for all the input so far; these guys have been playing in my game the last 10 years or so and are fairly mature players; they are mostly playing things like deathknights, demons, and the as stated evil classes; thought it would be some nice divergence from the same old game.
Will look forward to your continued input; thanks.
I could rant for pages about people trying to play "evil" and failing miserably. But the one thing that's always confused me is the tendency of players to think the word "evil" is synonymous with "anything goes," particularly when it comes to class/race/template combos. They go out of the realm of "evil" to simply bizarre and stupid. "Can I play an awakened dire ape?" What part of "evil" makes you think that would be an appropriate choice?
But, in truth, it's as someone else already touched on. The party most likely doesn't really hear (or comprehend, at least) the word "evil" so much as they hear "nonstandard and/or consequences lax." Thus, they take this a cue to indulge their fantasies regarding character generation and do things that they'd never attempt otherwise.
Doesn't mean it's not annoying, though. Evil games simply have to be approached with caution, including a sense of your players' maturity (which needs to be well developed) and plenty of reminders and outright statements about what "evil" is going to mean in your campaign.
I find that people that want to play "evil" characters (see 2 & 3 versions not 1) in a group game (that isn't a let's-see-who-can-survive-this-den-of-thievery type of game) are being lazy and selfish. Even a "evil characters allowed" game should be understode to mean a "evil characters allowed but must still fit within the group to allow everyone to have fun" game (unless otherwise intended).
As I typically favor characters of somewhat questionable morality, I agree. They should still fit in the group...I've had characters who need a bunch of allies to pull a scheme they can't do by themselves (who shouldn't be trusted to do any self-sacrifice but as long as odds are in their favor, they will do their best to look after their companions) and characters who don't have any major plots but are just callous, self-centered or whathaveyou.
Occasional slightly psychotic characters can be fun too, just as long as you don't overdo it.Some of them have surprising secrets in their sleeve, usually serving as a plot hook given by DM ("oh, I guess cat is out of the bag...yes, I am really 200 years old. Yes, this mission might reveal the secret of immortality. Yes, I pretty much expected that encounter there."), sometimes they are just what they seem to be.
But evil characters should not whine. World is their oyster, they should take. What Tatterdemalion said. And if your evil plot makes even the DM cringe in its nefariousness, you are doing great.
I currently play in an evil campaign. (One that qualifies as Etreme Intensity, No Limits on the Advanced Gammater Guide intensity level). It's great fun, but there are some ground rules.
first, we all bring a laptop and a wireless modem. This lets us send chat messages to the DM any time we don't want other to know what we are asking. This allows secret questions and messages without slowing down the game by going to another room. It also helps keep player knowledge and character knowledge entirely unlikned. (You <i>detect magic</i>? The DM sends you a chat message. You can tell the toher players or not, but they have no way to checking on your info without casting a spell themself).
Second, there is a list of books and house rules allowed on the game wikia. Nothing else is allowed, ever, at all, for players . (The DM can use what he wants for npcs). People can suggest new books for players but a: no one can use anything from a book they suggest added for 6 months and b: players vote.
Third, we all get together for dinner and a movie before each game. It helps keep us friendly. The point is to have fun, and emptions can get high. and finally,
forth, while all ic exchanges are secret, all ooc exchanges are public. No talking about other players behavior in this game secretly.
My wn character is essentially Dexter (from showtime) as a wizard, a sociopath who doesn't want to be hunted down and killed by heroes, so he tries to do something useful to get his bloodthirtsy jollies out. we also have an evil bard who just wants to be famous, a barbarian renowned for worshipping a god of rape *and* the defense of all children, and a cleric who plans to take over the world and finds us very useful, if he can control us.
So far, less winging thahn any other game. Doing well with what you have is the whole point-wining about getting more advantages is a sign of weak play.
One thing I have noticed is that alliances in evil groups tend to shift more often and being the odd man out in an evil party usually gets you killed unless your one tuff SOB.
Another thing I have noticed, like Saern said, I have yet to notice any evil done by the party; is mostly nuetral, well sure some have long range plans to take over the world - which may or may not be evil- but, none of them really represent evil at all; not even the death knight. I am really disappointed, they are all having a blast with the game, so they tell me, but is is more or less like any other game; just adventuring; heck they are nearly seventh level and they havent even tortured anyone or anything; they are all playing Southern style gentlemen, one has a slave, but he doesnt even misstreat her. Am thinking playing an evil character is either too disturbing or to difficult for most players who are not themselves evil.
I think it goes with the alignment. Selfishness, self-centeredness, and jealousy ARE whiny behaviors by terminology. Your players are just playing their parts.
Do yourself a favor and eliminate "alignment" from your game. I know it sounds cliche, but join the ranks of those of us who have moved on and you'll be much happier.
Jay H
Colorado
nah; my game is based around alignment; love it; is a main exp criteria for me.
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I think it goes with the alignment. Selfishness, self-centeredness, and jealousy ARE whiny behaviors by terminology. Your players are just playing their parts.
Only if played badly. Just because I think of myself before others doesn't mean that I can't:
a. Think long term. This includes helping other people because it'll help me later or because I'm getting paid.
b. Keep my gob shut and not whine so much.
c. Make friends of different alignments. If I happen to like a character, their death will affect me, thus it's best I avoid letting them die.
d. Decide to fight for the good guys because I find it entertaining.
I could rant for pages about people trying to play "evil" and failing miserably. But the one thing that's always confused me is the tendency of players to think the word "evil" is synonymous with "anything goes," particularly when it comes to class/race/template combos. They go out of the realm of "evil" to simply bizarre and stupid. "Can I play an awakened dire ape?" What part of "evil" makes you think that would be an appropriate choice?
But, in truth, it's as someone else already touched on. The party most likely doesn't really hear (or comprehend, at least) the word "evil" so much as they hear "nonstandard and/or consequences lax." Thus, they take this a cue to indulge their fantasies regarding character generation and do things that they'd never attempt otherwise.
Doesn't mean it's not annoying, though. Evil games simply have to be approached with caution, including a sense of your players' maturity (which needs to be well developed) and plenty of reminders and outright statements about what "evil" is going to mean in your campaign.
I agree with this and other remarks to the effect that it's really bad roleplaying/gaming and not 'evil'. There's a tendency for some players to hope for wish fulfillment in a game. Yes, it is annoying.
In my Savage Tide campaign 3 of the 6 characters are evil, the others are neutral. After 20+ years of playing good, even exalted characters they wanted a change of pace, so I was OK with it, provided there would be no in-fighting in the group.
So far it is working out wonderfully. They are behaving like heroes in the eyes of the world, but as soon as they are on their own the nastiness begins. Murder, sacrifice, you name it. The victims are mostly male NPCs, who are lured into a trap by one of the female characters (two of the evils are women).
The nice thing is that as a group they now hav a history of covering up lots of evil deeds. They cannot betray each other, because everyone is more or less involved in these deeds or an accomplice to these deeds. So if one of them is discovered to be a murderer or evil cultist, six heads will roll. This has created a bond of loyalty between the characters out of necessity. They all help each other, because they have no choice.
Moreover, some of the characters have a lot of skeletons in the closet. So their background stories also come back to haunt them. Four of them have committed murders in the past, and two of them are wanted criminals. The other two have covered up their tracks very well, but the threat is always there that someone will put two and two together and come after them anyway. Everyone is aware of the facts that all of the characters have secrets to hide, allthough nobody knows exactly what secrets. This creates an extra bond, and everybody does their best to keep these secrets hidden in the past. They are really on their own, and their group members are the only ones they can rely on. This creates a very interesting campaign so far. I am curious to see how it develops. And for how long the neutral characters manage to remain neutral (since some of them come dangerously close to evil).
Most people just want to play evil so they can backstab and mess with other players. This is especially true if they don't like other players in real life, which made evil characters very popular in high school. :)
The last time I had an evil campaign, I don't know if I was disappointed or not, but it was almost identical to a good campaign. Hardly any in-fighting, only one player being a *****bag (which he does in good campaigns anyway), no backstabbing, just working together towards a common goal. They *could* do evil things, they just never bothered. I guess interogations were more brutal, but that's it. Maybe we are getting too old for evil? :)
I find some players to be whiny and ironically they are often the ones that play evil (or selfish) even when playing a so-called good character (they play neutral most of the time to avoid doing anything non-selfish).
I have no problem with the CN alignment, I haven't had any bad experiences with it (yet). I had one CN thief once, the things he did were more comic relief than anything.
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To paraphrase an old song: It's my party and I'll whine if I want to.
(D'oh, showing my age)
It's cry actually ;-P
Usually people want to play evil characters to do things that they'd never do in a 'good' or 'serious' campaign. For example, the Duke that hires the party is kind of a jerk. In a normal campaign the players grumble and move on. In an evil game they can plot his assassination and their rise to power.
Actually we usually CYA then get around to returning the favor, but hey we tend towards Neutral or Good *$$. Sparhawk level fun, "Be Nice."
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Evil more whiny? Anakin Skywalker. 'nuff said...
I was going to suggest "You mean players, not characters, right?" until you played that card. :/
The one evil-ish campaign I took part in was mostly made up of professionals who rolled with the blows, though we did have one guy who complained rather unfortunately and one...let's say free-spirited...individual in the mix.