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Buffing VV


Savage Tide Adventure Path


How is he for the first fight? Does he need any pumping up there?

I know he stinks on ice in the prison battle. Anyone got some ideas on how to make him scary again for this tussle?


Yes I would buff him up a little, what I also did that helped is that he held back a couple of the Vrocks on TOD to attack with him in the final battle.
My party still pretty much moped him up, but I plan on several surpises for the second battle. In the Spell Compendium there are several PACT spells that are very useful, I plan on having Vanthus getting someone in Scuttlecove to cast these on him before he goes to the Abyss plus some other little nasties.


Well for the first battle, I don't want to buff him up too much. After all he has the campaign ender in his hot little hands.

I will look at these PACT spells.

The Exchange

If he weren't such a wuss, maybe he wouldn't have all these.... issues.

Just saying....

Dark Archive

I think the first battle with Vanthus is plenty challenging enough if you use ToD RAW. The way Steve wrote that adventure, the battle of Farshore itself is a war of attrition. Before they ever even face Vanthus, they have to deal with 4 flesh golems, 3 vrocks, numerous bands of pirates, and the Yuan-ti Sorcerer and his bodyguards. The players are supposed to be 10th level at that point, so it is hard to see how they could get through all those earlier battles with more than 50% of their spells and other expendable resources still in tact. Then Vanthus flies in and fights them while the chips are down, and has a Shadow Pearl as a trump card if things go badly. I think at that point there is no need to buff him. He isn't going to go toe-to-toe in melee with four opponents very well, but have him hit and run using his fly speed and use his SLA to divide and conquer. If I remember right he has a Dominate Person with a DC 19 save and a mass suggestion at a DC 20. Even for characters with a strong will save, their base save at that point is going to be +7. For something like a fighter, their base save will be +3. Even if they have gotten a solid cloak of resistance (lets say +3) and have a wisdom boosting item (giving the non caster a Wisdom bonus of say +2), then the fighter is at best going to have a Will save bonus of +8. With that they need a roll of 11 or higher to resist being dominated, and most fighters at 10th level aren't going to have a Will save that good. If it forces the PC's to try to neutralize Vanthus and one of their own team, all the better.

If you have Vanthus hold back at least one of the Vrocks to help him set up flanks, you can get pretty solid damage output out of Vanthus with his sneak attacks adding 3d6 to his melee attack damage. He also has a smite attack that does +12 damage. Remember too that Vanthus has SR 22, meaning that an average 10th level Wizard with Spell Penetration still needs a 10 or better to affect him with most spells. On top of that he has solid elemental immunities.

During the ToD battle, I think Vanthus is fine. You just have to make sure you run the first part of the fight well so that the players have to spend powerful spells and resources to defeat the rest of the Crimson Fleet invasion force before dealing with Vanthus. Once Vanthus shows up, the party should already be worn down.

Later in Into the Maw, Vanthus is weaker relative to the power of hte party IMHO because his HP is so low for a CR 20 opponent. You can easily fix that by swapping out one of his other feats for Unholy Toughness or whatever the feat is that gives them the Charisma Bonus times their HD bonus HP for Undead.

When I ran Tides of Dread, Steve's gauntlet of Crimson Fleet baddies very nearly resulted in a TPK for my party. Fortunately for them, the party's Cleric had invested in a couple of scrolls of revivify. Without those it Vanthus probably would have TPK'd them. They thought the Yuan-ti Sorcerer and the Vrocks were the "boss" part of the fight, so they didn't hold anything back when fighting them. Then as they finished up and were congratulating each other on the beach, Vanthus showed up and almost annihilated them. You can also use Lavinia as a form of interference with respect to the PC's tactics as she is emotional and might try to charge Vanthus or whatever else to muck things up for the PC's.

Hope all that helps.


I'm worried about the disruption items that show up here and there. Vantus has a crappy will save. Is there any mojo that counters this?


Ben Brenneman 22 wrote:
I'm worried about the disruption items that show up here and there. Vantus has a crappy will save. Is there any mojo that counters this?

sure, have someone cast Mindblank on him.... ok, that's overdoing it, but in the MIC there is a reasonably priced enchanmnet rasining the will save of the an armour's wearer.

Problem is, that will end up in the characters' hands most likely.

Potion of Owl's Wisdom should boost his will save by +2 for a cpouple of minutes, and there is a divine spell boosting will saves in the SC, 2nd level IIRC (away form the books atm ). A potion of that might add another couple of points.

Then again, as pointed out Vanthus is the last guy in a long chain of viscious battles, and pretty liekly, unexpected after the vrocks (where players usually let rip with everythin they've got.).
When they encounter VV, they will likely be out of serious ammo and down on HP, probably with some walking wounded baryl fit for action anymore...

And the fact that Vanthus is highly mobile, has a decent AC and the camapign ending pearl in his grasp ----> if you overdo it, you will probably cause a very frustrating end to the story arc.

As for "disruption" - Vanthus is not undead in ToD, so there is no problem with a disrupting effect there.

in ItM, he has an AC of around 42 ? Flatfooted somewhere in the high 30ies ? And he is still highly mobile, mounted on a nightmare and not even in melee range if played sensibly ?
If you still feel him vulnerable, give him some efefct with protection form positive energy (Planar handbook and Libris Mortis me thinks, would be good sources).
And overall, I don't see players adding disruption effects to their weapons (+2 ?) if they can get Sacred and bane or keen on them for the same price.

Liberty's Edge

I didnt buff him hardly at all until after the 5th round of combat. I thought he would go out like a wuss,but I was wrong I played him very well that day. Unholy toughness would be a good feat for him.All he really needs is some HP.the dual actions of a thrall of demogorgon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Does anyone know where I can locate the unholy toughness feat (if that's what it is called)? I will be running the battle with Vanthus in the Abyss next session and I'd like to check it out.

Thanks in advance for the help.


ronin wrote:

Does anyone know where I can locate the unholy toughness feat (if that's what it is called)? I will be running the battle with Vanthus in the Abyss next session and I'd like to check it out.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Don't think that is a feat, but an extraordinary ability - therefore, one should take it into account with regard to the CR - check the "Boneclaw" in the MM-III, p. 17 which uses it. Otherwise, lather on a few "Improved Toughness", but, as demonstrated to me yesterday night by my group, VV's HP are not really his Achilles' Heel in Divided Ire ( they disintegrated his mount and dropped him into the broiling lava below via a "grasping hand"... ashes to ashes and straight back into the afterlife as a lemure for him ).


For the battle in Divided's Ire, I intend on giving him unholy toughness and unholy grace (whatever the ability the blackguard has) to let him add his Charisma bonus to HP and saves. This will more accurately reflect his CR, which IMO is somewhat high given that he is so encumbered by two fairly moderately-high CR-increasing templates (death knight and half-fiend), along with his level of aristocrat (which, interestingly, I don't believe is added to his CR; rightly so as an NPC-class).

Still, Vanthus may have been the BBEG in ToD, but his time in the spotlight should be somewhat passed. Divided's Ire is a fascinating dungeon, as it affords the PCs the chance to pick and choose their battles, and--to some extent--the order of the encounters with the wardens. Again, Vanthus may have an advantage, as he is less accessible than the other wardens, and since Divided's Ire is an unlikely place to set up camp, I assume a lot of players will reach him depleted of resources.

Also, I think Vanthus' actions behind the scenes are more consequential than those he makes in combat. As such, I don't see him as being a terrible threat after ToD to the PCs, directly.

Still, I've toyed with other ideas to give him in terms of powerful abilites. Since he seems to have a fire motif, I was thinking of substituting his Abyssal-blast with a variation of the 9th-level Desert Wind maneuver from Tome of Battle, which creates a 60-radius burst of fire dealing 100 fire damage as a supernatural ability, I think. Another ability might allow for him to do something similar to what Khala could do, and swap his position with that of one of his shadow demon allies as an immediate action, thus forcing his "ally" to take a hit for him. I also thought of letting him travel through his shadow demon allies, in a way similar to that of the Blood Magus (Comp. Arc.), thus making him quite difficult to pin down. Another useful trick might be to create a constant poison gas emanating through the room, or even a confusion-type effect. This helps Vanthus and his allies get an upper hand from a purely territorial hazard.


I wouldn't overdo it on VV, since he for one is pretty mobile already ( he can fly on his own, as well as using his nightmare steed), and his local help (the three advanced Shadows) are pretty neat, since they can reach through walls, the bridge itself etc. and mobile too, and will most certainly keep some of the party busy - especially if one uses their "Magic Jar" ability for some fun.
The problem with the fight for the group - from my PoV - is the limited mobility available to the party, the number of foes faced and the ability of VVV to set the pace of the whole thing.
Although I admit fitting him with some Dimension dooring boots, since we play with countertumbling rules, and he wouldn't have made it out of his room alive (one of the biggest obstacles of the whole setup, IMHO ) otherwise


I think VV definitely needs a powerboost for Dividend's Ire. My party fought him in ToD and he proved pretty formible, but he did end up failing a save vrs. a glitterdust spell, which took him out for much of the battle. I think the unholy grace and toughness are a must. A boost to the DCs of some of his spell like abilities would be useful as well, though my party tends to make sure they are buffed with protection from evil effects, which makes his charm and dominate abilities rather useless. Unholy aura and abyssal blast are useful, but I think I'd up the damage of Abyssal Blast (make it d10s or 12s instead of sixes). I'm also thinking that because of his new allegiance to the lord of shadow demons, an ability like wraith strike, would be fitting (maybe 3 per day, as a gift from his new master).

The unholy aura and high AC makes him pretty well protected against melee attacks, but he needs something to help him out against spells. His SR 25 isn't going to be much use against a 17-18 level band of adventurers. I would consider boosting his SR by at least 10 points. His low HD is also going to make him vulnerable to spells like holy word. I mean if you are going to give out CR 20 award for the guy then you need to do something to help him out.

Sometimes I wonder how much play testing went into the mods. It says in the text that you should try to make the battle with VV memorable and cinematic. When/if the mod was play tested was the dm able to make it memorable and cinematic with the stats VV was given? I think that would have been a real challenge unless the party was very worn down when the fight started.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:

I'm also thinking that because of his new allegiance to the lord of shadow demons, an ability like wraith strike, would be fitting (maybe 3 per day, as a gift from his new master).

There is an amulet ("Heartseeking Amulet" in the MIC which does just that, as a swift action.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:


Sometimes I wonder how much play testing went into the mods. It says in the text that you should try to make the battle with VV memorable and cinematic. When/if the mod was play tested was the dm able to make it memorable and cinematic with the stats VV was given? I think that would have been a real challenge unless the party was very worn down when the fight started.

My group fought him in Divided Ire last session - mostly as statted, I simply added an "Improved Toughness" feat to his basic lineup, since he had already had that in ToD (for other reasons than to give him more HP, in case you wondered ) . +15 HP. I don't think it made much of difference... Not against a lineup of five 17th level characters, plus two 15th level cohorts.

Nevertheless - it was a pretty epic and challenging fight (lasting about a dozen rounds) simply due to his minions, the various darkness effects available to these and the characters being at two-thirds strength after a few encounters beforehand. So what was the big challenge ?
For one, the vile damage and pounce abilities of the three socabenoth (?) shadows played dire havoc with the mage's and shaman's HP ( loosing 8D6 HP semi-permenently from a single pounce is nothing to scoff at if you have only round 90 or 120 HP overall ), especially since the caster's ended up locked into a grapple each time, having to waste a round to escape from it.

Being caught on a narrow bridge with all opponents able to fly and straight through walls to boot, didn't help either. There was also a short "duel of light spells", until the players used a "celestial brilliance" spell from a scroll

Having one of your group magic jarred (the shield-bearer cohort ) and switching sides twice ( Dominate Person came into play as well ), and having two chars (of seven ) succumb to the mass suggestion "flee you fools !" for two rounds wasn't helpful as well...
....except in moving the battle closer to the adjoining room on the far side of the bridge. Which prevented another character being pulled of the bridge by the shadows through grappling... but the walls there made it easier for the shadows to withdraw for another pouncing charge simply by providing cover for the retreating move which prevented AoOs

Vanthus eventually only fell to having his mount disintegrated out from under him, and getting hit with "Bigby's Grappling Hand" the very next thing, which pulled him down into the lava. Which was the mage's first offensive action in the batlle, after having been chased about and busy reorganising his scattered aliies for the preceeding rounds.

It is not the actual numbers, it's the way one plays the opposition, which makes the fight difficult. Of course, if one plays it as a straight "slugging match", trading blows like Godzilla versus whoever .... its gonna be short, that way, yeah, but only because of the way the GM played it.


It's good to hear that your battle with VV did in fact turn out to be pretty epic, and I agree that how the gm runs the villains makes a huge difference as well, but I don't agree that the numbers don't play a big part of how the fight will go.

For instance the cleric in our party has been making very effective use with the bolt of glory spell. Against Vanthus (undead) it acts as a ray spell that does 1d12 per level no save. On average he will do 100+ points of damage. That spell alone could take VV out in one attack.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:

It's good to hear that your battle with VV did in fact turn out to be pretty epic, and I agree that how the gm runs the villains makes a huge difference as well, but I don't agree that the numbers don't play a big part of how the fight will go.

For instance the cleric in our party has been making very effective use with the bolt of glory spell. Against Vanthus (undead) it acts as a ray spell that does 1d12 per level no save. On average he will do 100+ points of damage. That spell alone could take VV out in one attack.

well, was the cleric around at ToD ? So, does Vanthus know him, and may reasonably have heard of his favourite tactic ?

e.g. simply add "Spellblade" (FRPG enchantment, +6000gp on weapon) to his sword or sickle (his equipment is boring anyway ) with "Bolt of Glory" as the spell immunized against...
Voila, one stupified cleric !
Alternatively add an armour augment crystal (MIC) to his stuff making "ranged touch" attacks that much harder to strike home (will a "-10" do ?) or use "scillintillting defense" (?), a 3rd level buff that changes natural armour boni to deflection boni.... Or "ray deflection" (SC).
Better even, have Vanthus disguise his undeath with some illusion tactics (say with a "hat of disguise" - available for a laughable 1800gp ), making them think he is an aberration, demon or something pseudo-natural, causing them to waste specialised magic on him, both buying time, and depleting their resources and actions. I mean, how much do the characters know for a fact about VV ?

Well know, one-trick-pony tactics are the easiest things to counter, often with astoundingly cheap equipment or spells. And it forces players/characters to remain flexible throughout the STAP. My group was/is very fond of stunning tactics, which of course, were pretty much wasted on undead Vanthus and his cohorts - they had to revise their usual tactics on the fly (they also didn't have magic jar on their radar, which is a necromantic possession type spell, hence not blocked by anti-enchantment defenses....).

Often enough, forcing players on the defensive, reacting to the BBEG is enough to make everyone sweat, since it confronts them with unknown factors. And no, I usually don't tell my players what precise power has hit/affected them. I only write down a note, with the results (to enable them to check later) and let them guess (or apply in-character skills ) to assess the situation...

I would also have to admit that the tactics showcased in the ItM write-up are less than sterling, IMHO....


Those are some good suggestions. VV hasn't seen our cleric use bolt of glory because the cleric wasn't high enough level to cast it during the first fight. So he wouldn't likely have an immediate counter to that spell. As a death knight I would imagine he would feel pretty arrogant, and wouldn't likely be examing his weaknesses and looking for ways to deal with them.

Unless the villain has prior knowledge of my PCs tactics I feel like it is metagaming on my part to go out of my way to buff villains with specific counters towards their tactics. However, I still might have to work in some of those suggestions when I prepare VV for battle. We're just starting Serpents of Scuttlecove, so I'm still a little ways away from that enounter, but I would like to make it a good one.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:

Those are some good suggestions. VV hasn't seen our cleric use bolt of glory because the cleric wasn't high enough level to cast it during the first fight. So he wouldn't likely have an immediate counter to that spell. As a death knight I would imagine he would feel pretty arrogant, and wouldn't likely be examing his weaknesses and looking for ways to deal with them.

Unless the villain has prior knowledge of my PCs tactics I feel like it is metagaming on my part to go out of my way to buff villains with specific counters towards their tactics. However, I still might have to work in some of those suggestions when I prepare VV for battle. We're just starting Serpents of Scuttlecove, so I'm still a little ways away from that enounter, but I would like to make it a good one.

What I meant was "does he know the cleric and has the cleric been using that bolt regularly".... so is it a known tactic if Vanthus has information on him.

I am using the "legendary" description from "legend lore" (the spell ) here, which states that characters above 11th level and their key items/habits are known well enough to be accessible by that spell. Since Vanthus is working for Demogorgon, and Big D has just made an appearance at the end of CobI, and taken notice of them..... S, just intelligent preparation on his part or that of his patron ? He might not even be aware of it himself...

After all, who provided Vanthus with all that nifty gear if not Demogorgon's own ? And an enhancement crystal fending of ranged attacks (touches and melee ) seems a pretty general defense to me... after all Vanthus even tried to stay out of immediate melee range in ToD, the little creep !

Maybe a matter of GM'ing tastes after all - I really hesitate to lather extra abilities onto opposition unless I see a definite need and go for specialised and modified equipment etc. instead.

Good Luck with SoS - that was by far the most fun installment off late, and I somehow suspect, of the rest of the STAP.


Good point, big D is aware of his penchant for Bolt of Glory, especially given that Khala soaked up a pair of them. So it would make sense for him to hook VV up with some counter to that tactic, especially since the kidknapping of Lavinia is essentially a lure to wrangle the party into a trap.

As a side note, I agree that SoS is possibly the coolest adventure in the path, though I have really enjoyed all of them thus far. CoBI was a blast, but I'm really stoked about SoS. The only adventure I don't think I like all that much is Wells of Darkness. I'm really not sure what I'm going to do about that one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think all of the above suggestions would work well. The shadows and wraiths seem to be the key. If you can bother the non tanks with them while possibly magic jarring a fighter type you'll be set. They do get to make touch attacks so it'll come down to if the characters can make their saves.

My entire group will be flying so they'll be even in that respect. I think once the non tanks start taking that CON damage the fighters will be forced to help them. Hopefully this will allow Vanthus some time to fly around and wreak some havoc with his abilities.

Besides, what DM doesn't like to hand out some ability drain!


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
....The only adventure I don't think I like all that much is Wells of Darkness. I'm really not sure what I'm going to do about that one.

Same for me, but mostly due to the fact that our group used the "wells of darkness" in another campaign right after the FC came out, and some stuff from that won't mix really well with the way they are presented in the STAP. I have a city-based arc (partially in Sigil ) as a replacement for it, but that one is pretty dependent on the way our Realms run - and the composition of my group.

But I remember some "alternate ideas" for WoD floating about in a thread last summer - probably the one with the original "paladins are buggered in STAP/WoD" debate. I thinks Koboldlord signed responsible for it.. perhaps check that one out ?


Agh! More bolt of glory! I'm going to publish a spell in the next supplement that does 100d6 damager per caster level, no save, no SR, to all enemies in a 1000-ft. spread. It'll be a 2nd level cleric spell.

Does anyone remember the "good old days" when divine spells used to be capped at 15d6 for a 6th level spell? 15d12 is what, like almost double that?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I'm thinking about re-doing Vanthus as a duskblade. Any reason I shouldn't?


bmcdaniel wrote:

I'm thinking about re-doing Vanthus as a duskblade. Any reason I shouldn't?

well, the Tempest abilities add lots of AC so if you go straight Duskblade you may lose alot of those two-weap fighting and AC bonii.

I was considering adding a few levels of Blackguard and was wondering if anyone had opinions on that.

Will definitely be buffing VV's hit points. I will likely add Unholy Toughness to the Death Knight Template (just seems logical to me) to accomplish this. Unholy grace may be overkill, but I will know more as my players near that stage.

For ALL my mobs I am using 75% of max for hp because my players are able to dish out significant damage per round. The standard Avg HP just doesn't pass muster.

Cheers!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

In ToD VV is a bit weak for my party... I'm thinking of dropping Skill focus Bluff and Two weapon defense for Elusive Target and Force of Personality which will keep him from being decimated by Power attacking fighters and add his charisma to his low Will save vs Mind Affecting spells and abilities.

I'd also swap 2 ranks from almost any secondary skill to the Skill Trick Combat Acrobatics so he can get his Sneak Attack damage in by Tumbling through an opponents square. Even if he is given allies the opportunity to flank might not arise and this gives a good way to leave an opponent flat-footed for at least one attack.


I think a fundamental starting place for modifying any NPC, especially Paizo-created ones, is to modify their ability scores. Paizo adventures mostly use the so-called elite array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. This array is equivalent to a 25-point buy. Lots of DMs, including me, use a 28-point buy for Player Characters or have some dice-rolling method with the option to generate several arrays and chose the best. Given the penchant for players to optimize their scores to the best of their ability, this gives PCs a big edge right at the basest level of character generation.

Simply put: an important NPC like Vanthus should be at least equal to the PCs in his abilities.

As an aside, giving a Wisdom of 8 to a long term employer like Lavinia is utterly ridiculous. How is any capable team of PCs supposed to respect someone they can manipulate without even trying?

If you're going to modify adventures to suit your campaign's needs, start right there and go through and identify your important NPCs who are in need of a pimping out.


well, it is not like Vanthus (weak) ability scores let him down, but his rather mediocre HP and the focus on classes that give weak increases to his Will save (same goes for Cold Captain Wyther as well ).

That being said, I rarely found the NPC opposition throughout the STAP weakly statted, although the humanoids with class levels were usually less bothersome with regard to this then the advanced monstrosities - the insane save-boni really stand out, as they make most saving throw dependent magic practically useless. If it even bypasses SR in the first place.
This becomes a distinct problem in the later part of the STAP, forcing the magic-reliant characters to focus on "no save" or debuffing magics, leaving the glory of high-yield damage almost exclusively to the melees more and more.

In reverse, this is opposed by the absurdly high save DCs based on the (advanced) monster's stats, such as the "eye flash" save of the EoD in SoS ... Honestly, who is going to save against a DC 34 Fortitude save at level 16-17 ? Especially a single class character or one with only one PrC ?
PCs can only dream of such DCs for their own effects, which would give them a chance against Fort save modifiers of +17 (that was IIRC the least Fort save mod of any of the bosses in SoS) and up.
And beyond SoS the situation gets only worse... If noone bothers to cast a "Disintegrate" at anything that is not obviously undead or a construct (current save DC of 23 for our wizard ) , because SR and inane Fort save modifiers make it unlikely that major damage is getting dealt (with a ranged touch spell to boot...), that tells you something.
Empowered Enervations have become far more popular instead - no save allowed, and other saves later on become that much easier...

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

vikingson wrote:

well, it is not like Vanthus (weak) ability scores let him down, but his rather mediocre HP and the focus on classes that give weak increases to his Will save (same goes for Cold Captain Wyther as well ).

That being said, I rarely found the NPC opposition throughout the STAP weakly statted, although the humanoids with class levels were usually less bothersome with regard to this then the advanced monstrosities - the insane save-boni really stand out, as they make most saving throw dependent magic practically useless. If it even bypasses SR in the first place.
This becomes a distinct problem in the later part of the STAP, forcing the magic-reliant characters to focus on "no save" or debuffing magics, leaving the glory of high-yield damage almost exclusively to the melees more and more.

In reverse, this is opposed by the absurdly high save DCs based on the (advanced) monster's stats, such as the "eye flash" save of the EoD in SoS ... Honestly, who is going to save against a DC 34 Fortitude save at level 16-17 ? Especially a single class character or one with only one PrC ?
PCs can only dream of such DCs for their own effects, which would give them a chance against Fort save modifiers of +17 (that was IIRC the least Fort save mod of any of the bosses in SoS) and up.
And beyond SoS the situation gets only worse... If noone bothers to cast a "Disintegrate" at anything that is not obviously undead or a construct (current save DC of 23 for our wizard ) , because SR and inane Fort save modifiers make it unlikely that major damage is getting dealt (with a ranged touch spell to boot...), that tells you something.
Empowered Enervations have become far more popular instead - no save allowed, and other saves later on become that much easier...

IMC the two full casters are both Clerics, one is a battle cleric the other a healer/bard. The Battle Cleric has all 5 levels of the Demonwrecker from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and doesn't worry about SR when it comes to CE outsiders. He automatically makes it. It's a pretty buff PrC but I fell with no Wizard they need the edge in the later epsiodes of the STAP.


primemover003 wrote:
IMC the two full casters are both Clerics, one is a battle cleric the other a healer/bard. The Battle Cleric has all 5 levels of the Demonwrecker from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and doesn't worry about SR when it comes to CE outsiders....

Know the Demonwercker class - my PCs are actually doing a sub-quest atm to qualify for introduction to the inner mysteries of it, but basically it leaves the problem of the insane stats right where they are.

If the (BBEG) opposition has save boni in excess of the high twenties, casting save or XYZ spells basically becomes a "no-win" situation for the PCs without prior debuffing, often massively so.

While the monstrous opposition basically gets a massive save DC-increase as part of the I am "bigger than your average goon" shtick. Which makes beating the save DC without prior knowledge nigh impossible, espically for single or dual-class builds.

And as for "buffed up" clerics - IMHO absolutely overated (if loved by people on forums ), as basically the players use "Dispel Magic" ( greater and normal) regularly, and so does the opposition hereabouts. Which often enough left clerics "peeled" and helpless in mid-battle. Besides, people always seem to blissfully forget that buffing up requires time, immediately prior to combat - which the party is not really assured to get, and also often enough demands a quick resolution of the combat before the cherished boni run out.... fear the elusive opponent who runs rings around you and waits for your might to evaporate

We had an especially nice (ok, I cherish it, my player holger does does not ) scene a few years back where a magic-upped priest warrior wanna-be charged straight at the barbarous BBEG, hollering in the name of his much abused god of chivalry... since the bugbear chieftain had a torque projecting an Anti-Magic field within 10', things tunred out... nastily... That fight was over so quick, far too quickly in my mind.... oh the stupified expression ! *wicked grin*

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