What system is the pathfinder CS (coming out August 2008, around the time of 4th edition DnD) going to come out in? Or is it going to have fewer stat blocks and more setting information, so more of it can be used with either system?
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What system is the pathfinder CS (coming out August 2008, around the time of 4th edition DnD) going to come out in? Or is it going to have fewer stat blocks and more setting information, so more of it can be used with either system?
Pathfinder[/i] Chronicles Campaign Setting (OGL) Hardocover]If we see 4.0 and we like 4.0 and the new OGL allows us to do what we want, this thing (or rather a couple of chapters of it) will be 4.0. If we stick with 3.5, it'll be 3.5.
The vast majority of this book will be background detail and notes.
It will cover about the same number of countries as we include in the Gazetteer (about 40 or so), but each entry in the Gaz gets something like 600 words. Each will probably get 6 pages in this book, with encounter charts, history, customs, flags, livery, etc.
The Gazetteer is a good overview of the world. This book will give you just about everything you need to set a campaign just about anywhere within that world.
It was also said that they would prefer to go 4.0, but would have to wait to see if they received the documentation in time and if it met the needs of the setting; they're not against remaining 3.5 if 4.0 fails to wow.
4.0 fail to WOW? It will WOW because it is WOW LOL
But lets hope Paizo doesnt like it and sticks with 3.5
Creative Director
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Personally... the concept that D&D has to compete against WoW is one that I don't buy. There's room for both. I play both, and haven't split into a weird sort of mirror universe creature.
WoW vs D&D is, to me, like saying Baseball competes against Football. They're similar, but they can exist side to side fine.
ANYway... as for Pathfinder and 4th edition... we'll be making the choice once we have a chance to see the 4th edition rules (we haven't seen them yet). The main requirement is that WHATEVER system we end up going with, that system has to allow us to publish the type of game material we want to publish.
No i dont think they compete i think they are turning 4th edition into WOW
4.0 fail to WOW? It will WOW because it is WOW LOL
But lets hope Paizo doesnt like it and sticks with 3.5
Hehe, the pun was just begging to be included. I couldn't tell it no.
I still think that 4E will stay true to the game and make vast improvements. I hope paizo gets a chance to see it before the various deadlines, and that they find it a worthwhile system to switch to.
And no matter how it turns out, I can't agree with those that say it's being turned into a clone of WoW.
Good luck James. My money says that you won't get to see anything 4.0 till well after the books are out. I can't see WotC leaving any money on the table for independant publishers. I'll only buy the sourcebook ifs its 3.5 or 3.75 or something other then 4.0.
Apparently Wizards did a study of some kind 7 years ago that told them there was no computer game vs tabletop competition for dollars.
Of course, 7 years ago there was no Wow. Just EQ, and there's a big reason WOW is bigger.
I think 4th ed is less a direct competition to WOW than the vitural tabletop. I got chummies in other time zones, and we MMORG to have something to do together. We'd DnD if we could. It sounds like, this time next year, we will be able to.
And if your gonna do something big like a virtual tabletop, you dont want to have to code it twice. So if its gonna come out in the next few years, you might as well tie it to a new edition.
At least, that's what Im getting from all the buzz.
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I agree that there is no competition between RPG's and MMORPG's. I've played both and like different things about each of them. They are two completely different experiences.
I wish they'd quit calling games like EQ and WoW RPG's because they aren't RPG's. They should adopt a different moniker,like Fantasy Adventure Games, but that doesn't play out well as an acronym.
There's room for both. I play both, and haven't split into a weird sort of mirror universe creature.
How do we know this isn't the weird evil mirror universe creature James Jacobs?
OH NO!!! how do I know I'm not some sort of weird evil mirror universe me....
*goes to the corner, hugs self and stares out into the room fearfully*
So, if I were neutral, would the mirror universe me also be neutral?
No. Your mirror self would be Chaotic Lawful...
OH NO!!! how do I know I'm not some sort of weird evil mirror universe me....
I know I'm not my evil mirror universe self. I met him, he's a wimp. No killer instinct at all.
I agree that there is no competition between RPG's and MMORPG's. I've played both and like different things about each of them. They are two completely different experiences.
There might not be anything alike, but that doesn't mean that they won't compete for people. I left a group because two of the players were only thinking about WoW instead of at least dedicating some time solely for D&D. They often said they couldn't come to sessions, or couldn't play long, and their excuses just screamed "I'd rather play WoW".
The part with them being the two DMs in that group made it only worse, of course.
I wish they'd quit calling games like EQ and WoW RPG's because they aren't RPG's. They should adopt a different moniker,like Fantasy Adventure Games, but that doesn't play out well as an acronym.
I haven't played them myself, but from what I heard from the conversations the two players I mention above have had (and believe me, the fact that we were supposed to play D&D, something that would have involved all 6 people at the table, never kept them from having one-hour conversations about their guilds and raids and whatever), it sounded like Diablo with more people and an auction system for items built in. I sure never heard anything that sounded like roleplaying to me. Just: Gather, buff up, slaughter a hundred critters, split up stuff, rinse and repeat. Oh, and sometimes that one guy's female elf character would shake her ass, which apparently counted as roleplaying.
I guess it's possible that there's more to WoW, but I'll never know, because those two forever soured the concept of MMO"RPG"s for me.
Good luck James. My money says that you won't get to see anything 4.0 till well after the books are out. I can't see WotC leaving any money on the table for independant publishers.
I'm inclined to agree: They seem eager to leave everyone else out. In my opinion, it's because they saw that a lot of the stuff the competition put up blows their own stuff out of the water. Adventures, for example. So instead of striving to outdo the competition, they sabotage them.
I'll only buy the sourcebook ifs its 3.5 or 3.75 or something other then 4.0.
I'll buy it regardless, and I'll use the game system they use for Pathfinder. If Pathfinder switches to 4e, I'll get the 4e core rules, as well as anything they release that others will have access to. If the 4e Psi HB will find its way into the SRD again, I'll get it. Otherwise they can keep their stuff.
My suggestion to you: Buy the sourcebook if you like it, to hell with the rules. Should not be much in the way of rules in there, and what little there is should be easy to convert, especially if you only convert what you need (why should you translate the major of X-Town's levels back into 3e if you play in Y-Ville, which is nowhere near X-Town?)
4.0 fail to WOW? It will WOW because it is WOW LOL
I'd disagree. But only just. It certainly tries to be like WoW.
But I think that if Wizards plans to compete with WoW and other MMO"RPG"s for customers, it will fail, and miserably. Sure, there might be some people who only play WoW because they can't find D&D players, but I don't think they're that many because it's not the same type of game.
Already, there are ways to play D&D online, and while Wizards' online scheme might have the advantage to be more visible to the community, with ads in every new rulebook, they do have to compete against systems that are free, where you don't have to pay 10 bucks each month (for every player) just to play.
Plus, I don't think there are that many people willing to play D&D online to begin with. For me, it would be a bad substitute I'd only do if there was no way I could play RPG the real way: Around a table with friends.
And if they think that they can win over WoW players with a concept of playing "real" D&D online, with nifty tools like automated sheets and a 3d invironment with animated dice: As long as it will remain a true RPG, with the endless freedome RPGs promise, any electronic aid will either make compromises (and not provide true and full support) or limit players.
And if your "RPG" experience has limits, why not stick to WoW in the fist place? There's more action there, you don't have to wait for one guy to move the monsters around, and all that.
I've played both. Here's my judgment;
((WARNING: All verdicts drawn from current incarnations of D&D and WoW. I make no claims on how this will be effected by 4th edition's suckage or WoW upcoming 'Tactile Sensation Mod'*
*I'm looking at you, Night/Blood Elves.*
*I'm making this up. Go away and read my judgements.))
Both allow you to play as whatever you can imagine, subject to DM/Admin approval
Verdict: Tie. Although convincing your GM to let you play as your 'kick-ass, takes no guff Ninja/Paladin from your old campaign' is a lot easier than doing the same thing with an Admin.
Both are played by people around the world
Verdict: Tie
Both are fantasy based.*
*Except Ebberon. Pseudo-Steam Punk can blow me.
Verdict: Tie (Close, D&D. Ebberon almost cost ya'.)
Both are played with friends.
Verdict: Tie
D&D is face-to-face with friends who you know.
WoW...well, that sexy Elf who's into you is actually a mechanic named Big Jim from Ohio.
Verdict: D&D
Both allow endless hours of entertainment.
Verdict: Tie
D&D is customizable to the individual.
WoW is not.
Verdict: D&D
D&D requires fairly complex rules knowledge
Wow, a little bit less so.
Verdict: WoW. People like both simple and complex in equal numbers. I'm complex, but that's my opinion. WoW gets it because it's out of a box.
WoW, you play with people from all over the world from all walks of life.
D&D, it's those same guys every week.
Verdict: WoW
D&D uses your imagination, every roll of the dice a myriad of attacks and parries all in your head.
WoW uses a crappy graphic of some dwarf swinging an ax once with every mouse click.
Verdict: D&D
WoW is a world that is both lush and filled with color and with vibrant scenery straight from Hollywood.
D&D is only as good as your GM.
Verdict: WoW. Mmmm, pretty graphics. Unless you got a good GM. Then D&D wins.
D&D uses dice.
WoW uses a mouse/keyboard.
Verdict: D&D. Dice are collectible. Mouses and keyboards are not. And they're cheaper.
Oh! And when you miss, throwing them against wall doesn't break dice!
Most of the time.
Both result in Carpel Tunnel Syndrome.
Verdict: Tie.
WoW will eat your soul.
D&D, only less so.
Verdict: D&D. You have friends at the table to stop you.
WoW requires a hefty startup and subscription fees.
D&D craps out another supplement every week.
Verdict: Tie. They both suck money.
My opinion; I prefer D&D over WoW simply becasue it's more complex, customizable, I'm in charge of the game and more personal.
I do think 4.0 is a joke, a really bad joke. I will not update only for the fact that 3.5 is still going strong and does not need to be retired or replaced, or even supplemented.
And it took my Dragon/Dungeon away from Paizo.
Never will I forget this transgression!
Long Live 3.5!!! >.<
Here's my judgment;
Your judgement is flawed in several accounts. How could you! ;-) I'll set things right:
WoW upcoming 'Tactile Sensation Mod'
No correction here, a simple statement:
WHAT?
Both allow you to play as whatever you can imagine, subject to DM/Admin approval
Verdict: Tie. Although convincing your GM to let you play as your 'kick-ass, takes no guff Ninja/Paladin from your old campaign' is a lot easier than doing the same thing with an Admin.
As long as you can give me proof, with screenshots of characters and character sheets, that WoW allows you to play a half-farspawn half-dragon human with sword magic and mind magic that can make people just fall over dead by shutting down all their mental and physical urges, I have to disagree with you here! }>
*Except Ebberon. Pseudo-Steam Punk can blow me.
Verdict: Tie (Close, D&D. Ebberon almost cost ya'.)
Eberron's not D&D. I mean it is D&D, but it's not. It uses D&D rules, but it isn't the definition of D&D.
WoW, you play with people from all over the world from all walks of life.
D&D, it's those same guys every week.
Verdict: WoW
I'd say that playing with people you know and that you know are decent chaps has a lot going for it, too: While I don't play WoW, I do play multiplayer computer games often - mostly FPS, but I did my fair bit of NWNing, and "from all walks of life" often contains "professional jerks". Seriously, they seem to do being jerks as a living, they're that good at it.
D&D uses your imagination
Or sometimes, Nick Logue's. Which can destroy a weaker person's mind utterly and instead fill his or her head with primal umbran malice, and that person then sets out to eat our sun.
So, under certain circumstances, those crappy, repetitive graphics might be a blessing (if you're a wimp ;-))
D&D uses dice.
WoW uses a mouse/keyboard.
Verdict: D&D. Dice are collectible. Mouses and keyboards are not. And they're cheaper.
Oh! And when you miss, throwing them against wall doesn't break dice!
Most of the time.
Mice and keyboards can be collectible! I know I have rather more of them than I am using on my computers.
And some of the dice I own have cost more than some of the mice and keyboards I own.
And while dice don't break (themselves), they can break stuff like glass cases, windows, and the like. Sure, mice are worse in that regard (especially cordless mice), and Nintendo's Wii Remotes probably saved several small businesses that got to repair the countless windows, big expensive TVs and what not that didn't survive the cometlike impact those things can cause when they slip from your hands.....
WoW will eat your soul.
D&D, only less so.
Verdict: D&D. You have friends at the table to stop you.
Of course D&D won't eat your soul. It makes sure not to, because you have to sell it to the Dark Being of your choice in order to play D&D ;-)
You raise several points, good sir!
I must concur!
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I'm inclined to agree: They seem eager to leave everyone else out. In my opinion, it's because they saw that a lot of the stuff the competition put up blows their own stuff out of the water. Adventures, for example. So instead of striving to outdo the competition, they sabotage them.
I don't think that is it at all. I think they don't HAVE the rules for 4E yet. So much indicates that the rules are still being written even now. I suspect that the rules for 4e will not be complete before the end of the year or close to it. How they will make their publishing deadline I will never know.
I don't think that is it at all. I think they don't HAVE the rules for 4E yet. So much indicates that the rules are still being written even now. I suspect that the rules for 4e will not be complete before the end of the year or close to it. How they will make their publishing deadline I will never know.
I'm inclined to agree: They seem eager to leave everyone else out. In my opinion, it's because they saw that a lot of the stuff the competition put up blows their own stuff out of the water. Adventures, for example. So instead of striving to outdo the competition, they sabotage them.
As much as I love Paizo crew, I don't think there's any reason to beleive Wizards is lying when they say they are having playtests right know, and have sent out copies fo the rules for those playtests.
I have playtested a lot of things, including some sstuff through the RPGA. The rules, themselves, are ususally done in a rough form loooong before the book is edited, laid out, and illustrated. This is when you playtest, and at that point there is still time to make changes. Even after a book is edited, I have seen groups give comments that got included in the layout stage.
There are rough 4e rules, I am sure. They are being tweaked. But deciding the duration of bulls strength or the value of weapon specialization is a lot different from creating spell and reat systems.
I suspect 3rd party publishers dont have the ruels yet because Wizards keeps thnking it'll be a lot closer to the final version in a week. Then another week. Then another...
Well your avatar does have a goatee... sorta... hmm... :\
Now i'm really worried... cause the real me sorta has one too... only BIGGER!!
As much as I love Paizo crew, I don't think there's any reason to beleive Wizards is lying when they say they are having playtests right know, and have sent out copies fo the rules for those playtests.
I have playtested a lot of things, including some sstuff through the RPGA. The rules, themselves, are ususally done in a rough form loooong before the book is edited, laid out, and illustrated. This is when you playtest, and at that point there is still time to make changes. Even after a book is edited, I have seen groups give comments that got included in the layout stage.
There are rough 4e rules, I am sure. They are being tweaked. But deciding the duration of bulls strength or the value of weapon specialization is a lot different from creating spell and reat systems.
I suspect 3rd party publishers dont have the ruels yet because Wizards keeps thnking it'll be a lot closer to the final version in a week. Then another week. Then another...
I do agree they are playtesting. I just wonder how they wrote magic items and rules after the playtest went out will change things. Of course if magic items are a minor part of the game now it may not be an issue.
I do think wizards doesnt want a repet of the 3e launch. So they might delay the rules going out. I mean how many publishers will rush to get some of the missing races and classes out in their books? Could cause problems if the DI hasnt been established yet. Once DI is established and working, DMs and players might be less likely to buy things that dont work in their generating systems.
They didnt seem to have a clear decision on the OGL until recently as well.
Oh well Im in no rush to switch, Ill see it when paizo moves over.
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Now i'm really worried... cause the real me sorta has one too... only BIGGER!!Well your avatar does have a goatee... sorta... hmm... :\
Well now for the real test: If you see someone wearing a red shirt walking by and you get the urge to kill that person, you might be the evil incarnation of yourself.
Well now for the real test: If you see someone wearing a red shirt walking by and you get the urge to kill that person, you might be the evil incarnation of yourself.Now i'm really worried... cause the real me sorta has one too... only BIGGER!!Well your avatar does have a goatee... sorta... hmm... :\
Or just be in a Star Trek episode.
I don't think that is it at all. I think they don't HAVE the rules for 4E yet. So much indicates that the rules are still being written even now. I suspect that the rules for 4e will not be complete before the end of the year or close to it. How they will make their publishing deadline I will never know.
They're running playtest sessions. They're gearing up for the "public" playtest.
I think that if they wanted to really cooperate with other companies, they would give them their playtest material. And I personally would give it to publishers before I'd hand it out to normal playtesters. You never know: The cooperation could be contagious and those publishers and game designers and so on could offer some ideas of their own, as well as their opinion.
Well now for the real test: If you see someone wearing a red shirt walking by and you get the urge to kill that person, you might be the evil incarnation of yourself.Now i'm really worried... cause the real me sorta has one too... only BIGGER!!Well your avatar does have a goatee... sorta... hmm... :\
*Looking over pile of bodies*
Nope, no red shirts, I'm still plain old me.
as well as their opinion.And that's probably why they didn't do it. ;)
Mikey,
Do you really think Wizards has some legal fear of receiving 3rd party opinions before the 4e docs are done?
Come to think of it, in a world where anything successful gets sued by people claiming to have thoguht of it first, I can see that.
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Mikey,
Mikey?
Eh, well, I don't mind being called Mikey by a Grrrl, so it's okay. ;D
Do you really think Wizards has some legal fear of receiving 3rd party opinions before the 4e docs are done?
Legal fear? No. Not legal fear.
Come to think of it, in a world where anything successful gets sued by people claiming to have thoguht of it first, I can see that.
Hmm, interesting. I hadn't thought about that, but again, I don't see them too worried about any legal issues about 4e ideas. There's no RPG company around that could muster the moneys to pull off a lawsuit aimed at WotC.
Mikey?
Eh, well, I don't mind being called Mikey by a Grrrl, so it's okay. ;D
Sorry, swweetie. I do that to everyone. Bad habit. Isn't going to stop.
Do you really think Wizards has some legal fear of receiving 3rd party opinions before the 4e docs are done?
Legal fear? No. Not legal fear.
Do you foresee nonlegal fear (as opposed to illegal fear)
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Sorry, swweetie. I do that to everyone. Bad habit. Isn't going to stop.
No worries. ;D
Do you foresee nonlegal fear (as opposed to illegal fear)
Oh yeah, I should have made myself clear. I don't think WotC R&D fears anything. I think that, understandably, it doesn't want other companies weighing in with opinions on the system. Although it's sort of obnoxious (I really really want to see those rules!!!), I can sympathize greatly. :)
*Looking over pile of bodies*
Nope, no red shirts, I'm still plain old me.
That's funny, the modies I leave behind always have red shirts. Do you just use poison or kill them by cutting off their legs? ;-)
Mikey?
Could have been worse. She could have called you Mickey. You'd have to wear huge black fake ears around the office and speak with a ridiculously high voice!
Mikey?
Eh, well, I don't mind being called Mikey by a Grrrl, so it's okay. ;D
Sorry, swweetie. I do that to everyone. Bad habit. Isn't going to stop.
You call everyone Mikey? Bound to lead to confusion.
Well now for the real test: If you see someone wearing a red shirt walking by and you get the urge to kill that person, you might be the evil incarnation of yourself.Now i'm really worried... cause the real me sorta has one too... only BIGGER!!Well your avatar does have a goatee... sorta... hmm... :\
Didn't have an urge to kill them... just did it for the shear joy of it... so i think i'm in the clear.
That's funny, the modies I leave behind always have red shirts. Do you just use poison or kill them by cutting off their legs? ;-)
You insult me, WHARGOUL DOES NOT USE POISON!!!! With poison I don’t get to hear the skull give way to my war hammer. Massive head trauma leaves most of the shirts original color intact, maybe it gives the appearance of tie-dye or a Rorschach blot, but not enough to consider the shirt red. On that note, on sale soon original Whargoul tie-dye tunics and armor.
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Could have been worse. She could have called you Mickey. You'd have to wear huge black fake ears around the office and speak with a ridiculously high voice!
The ears and falsetto I could deal with. It's the fear of people breaking into song singing that horrid 80s "music" that would put me over the edge. Hey Mickey, indeed. INdeed.
Didn't have an urge to kill them... just did it for the shear joy of it... so i think i'm in the clear.Oh well, you're safe then. Certainly not the evil version of...
Hey, wait a minute!
HA!!! Got ya!
Scuse me here comes another red shirt... now where did i put my maul?
Could have been worse. She could have called you Mickey. You'd have to wear huge black fake ears around the office and speak with a ridiculously high voice!The ears and falsetto I could deal with. It's the fear of people breaking into song singing that horrid 80s "music" that would put me over the edge. Hey Mickey, indeed. INdeed.
Hey Mickey!
Hey Mickey!|
Contributor
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Could have been worse. She could have called you Mickey. You'd have to wear huge black fake ears around the office and speak with a ridiculously high voice!The ears and falsetto I could deal with. It's the fear of people breaking into song singing that horrid 80s "music" that would put me over the edge. Hey Mickey, indeed. INdeed.Hey Mickey!
Hey Mickey!
*cries*
HA!!! Got ya!
Scuse me here comes another red shirt... now where did i put my maul?
D'oh!
*considers warning the red shirt*
*pops up some popcorn for the show instead*
Ahhhh... now for a break, you mind sharing some of that pop-corn? Killing red shirts always makes me hungry.
Now where was I?.... oh yes...
1001....
*Red shirt runs away*
hey you, come back here, you're 1001...
*Red shirt gets away clean while lojakz catches his breath*
Oh, well, can't kill em all I guess. Leave some for the next guy.
I'm holding out for 4.5
*eyes 3.0 dust collectors*
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I'm holding out for 4.5
*eyes 3.0 dust collectors*
3e = 2001
3.5 = 2003-----------------------
4e = 2008
4.5 = 2010? Doesn't see that far away. But then again...
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5e = 2015? Assuming WotC stays profitable this long ... or PnP survives
Heh ...
In the year 2525...
If D&D still survives...
If Mialee still thrives...
We can game...