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It's a ruse. He's all hopped up on foofie yuppie drinks and he's driving to your place right now.
Hide...the...huh...um, everything I guess. Straws, kids, orifices; matter of fact, make sure your neighbors are out working in the yard so he'll get tired out.
hehe, you said orifice....
I'll call the neighbors...
Sounds to me like the writers and editors of this particular adventure path, now no longer having to answer to WotC, and are acting like teenagers left home for a weekend while the parents are away. Overdoing it a bit. Just my two coppers.
Bandit of LV
Mature audiences are seeking usable, well written, well storied adventures. We don't need to have every imaginable atrocity spelled out to us because, unlike the teenagers, we read the newspapers, learned history in school, and are well aware of the pain and suffering men (or ogres) can inflict on their fellows.
To add something positive to the discussion I suggest the following. The next time Paizo wants an adventure that makes people squeamish, take all the tasteless descriptions and put them in one sidebar on the last page as "DM suggestions". Then use the space saved elsewhere in the module to provide more useful information.
Would the next yes-man who steps to Paizo's defense please explain how the picture of Mammy and the 2-3 pages (cumulative) of OTT...
Wow, you certainly are a difficult customer to please...so according to your standards, anything that you find remotely objectionable, should have retroactively been replaced/sanitized by something you have judged as more 'useful'? Why don't you go write your own adventures then, and then you won't have to whine about how you were 'taken advantage of' by paizo?
Sheesh-glad i'm not in a position where my job involves answering to ungrateful pricks like this...
What we need here is government action. That way, someone will protect me from that terrible man, Nick Logue, and all his dirty evil thoughts. I can't handle the responsibility of choosing the type of entertainment products I like, won't someone do it for me!
Or, everyone should just admit that my opinion is correct, and that anyone who thinks otherwise has a deviant/immature mind. For shame, you sickos, for shame.
I agree-I cannot allow my fragile mind to be exposed to such atrocities that are far tamer than what you see during coverage of the Iraq war, and so rather than expressing my dissatisfaction with my wallet, I need to be protected preemptively...
Wow, you certainly are a difficult customer to please...so according to your standards, anything that you find remotely objectionable, should have retroactively been replaced/sanitized by something you have judged as more 'useful'?
Well, I have to say that
The next time Paizo wants an adventure that makes people squeamish, take all the tasteless descriptions and put them in one sidebar on the last page as "DM suggestions".
It doesn't seem to me to be a call for retroactive changes. If it was, it wouldn't have included the phrase "The next time". Maybe my reading comprehension is out of whack?
Creative Director
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Sounds to me like the writers and editors of this particular adventure path, now no longer having to answer to WotC, and are acting like teenagers left home for a weekend while the parents are away. Overdoing it a bit. Just my two coppers.
Another way to look at it is that Paizo is perhaps trying to target a different audience than Wizards of the Coast. I don't see us or our authors as wild partying teenagers any more than I see authors of books, TV show creators, or movie directors who choose to work in a more mature medium than PG or the softer side of PG-13.
That said, Dungeon had some pretty gory and edgy stuff in it anyway, so the change in tone between Dungeon and Pathfinder isn't quite as vast as one might think.
I agree-I cannot allow my fragile mind to be exposed to such atrocities that are far tamer than what you see during coverage of the Iraq war, and so rather than expressing my dissatisfaction with my wallet, I need to be protected preemptively...
Expressing dissatisfaction with the wallet is a last resort to a lost cause. It's all or nothing. The whole purpose of a message board is to discuss things. I have enjoyed all but one and half chapters of the three existing Pathfinder books. Saying that I should just not buy more books instead of discussing the quibbles that I had with that one and a half chapters with the author and the editor is, frankly, a stupid and shortsighted idea.
Wow, you certainly are a difficult customer to please...so according to your standards, anything that you find remotely objectionable, should have retroactively been replaced/sanitized by something you have judged as more 'useful'?
Well, I have to say that
It doesn't seem to me to be a call for retroactive changes. If it was, it wouldn't have included the phrase "The next time". Maybe my reading comprehension is out of whack?
The next time Paizo wants an adventure that makes people squeamish, take all the tasteless descriptions and put them in one sidebar on the last page as "DM suggestions".
Wikipedia 'hyperbole'
Wikipedia 'hyperbole'
Dictionary.com 'retroactive'. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Expressing dissatisfaction with the wallet is a last resort to a lost cause. It's all or nothing. The whole purpose of a message board is to discuss things. Implying that people who don't care for the direction taken in Pathfinder should just not buy it instead of talking about how small changes would enhance its value to them is, frankly, a stupid and shortsighted idea.
I agree-I cannot allow my fragile mind to be exposed to such atrocities that are far tamer than what you see during coverage of the Iraq war, and so rather than expressing my dissatisfaction with my wallet, I need to be protected preemptively...
there is nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction-my ire was raised when suggestions were raised like putting all the 'objectionable' content in a separate section, etc etc....like some other astute poster alluded to, it's the clear minority forcing the issue, despite the presence or wishes of the minority.
Here's a horrible analogy-have a pizza party for a kid...one of his friends is vegetarian--it's fine to order a veggie pizza for him, but at what point is it TOO accomodating (e.g. he can't stand the sight of meat, so it's only veggie pizza, or won't eat pizza from places that process meat, so you have to find some vegan pizzeria, etc)...
Dictionary.com 'retroactive'. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Wikipedia 'hyperbole'
My PhD says I do....the word was used because of the demanding nature of the original post, and that that was probably the only way for him to be placated, like the customer who is ALWAYS right, no matter what...
My PhD says I do....the word was used because of the demanding nature of the original post, and that that was probably the only way for him to be placated, like the customer who is ALWAYS right, no matter what...
Sheesh-glad i'm not in a position where my job involves answering to ungrateful pricks like this...
In what area is your PhD? What was your thesis? Did you include the term "ungrateful pricks' in it?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I agree-I cannot allow my fragile mind to be exposed to such atrocities that are far tamer than what you see during coverage of the Iraq war, and so rather than expressing my dissatisfaction with my wallet, I need to be protected preemptively...Expressing dissatisfaction with the wallet is a last resort to a lost cause. It's all or nothing. The whole purpose of a message board is to discuss things. I have enjoyed all but one and half chapters of the three existing Pathfinder books. Saying that I should just not buy more books instead of discussing the quibbles that I had with that one and a half chapters with the author and the editor is, frankly, a stupid and shortsighted idea.
Well and good, but the irritating thing is when people pop up and speak as if they represent some massive population. "mature audiences want this" or "adults like that" or "only brain dead 13 year olds with AC/DC t-shirts and a substantial pokemon collection like such explicit content". It's one thing to say "I don't like this, I'd like something less gory" rather than "This is unacceptable to all decent and good persons, for shame, for shame."
And, calling people yes-men is just a great way to be an a&!%@$%. There are a great number of regular Paizoians posting on this thread that are not comfortable with the level of gore in Pathfinder. Unfortunately, there are some self-important keepers of the community's moral code that want to assert an objective content standard that does not exist.
Perhaps the existence of this thread shows that Pathfinder #3 is about where the line is on this type of adventure. Like I said, if you take the range of Paizo products, including Gamemastery modules, I think you will see that there is much more to their product, and Nick Logue's writings, than gonzo violence for the sake of gonzo violence. There are posters on this thread that are going off the deep end and drawing the conclusion that this one adventure represents the way Pathfinder does everything. If those are the limits of a person's deductive reasoning, I pity them, but I don't have a lot of sympathy to their plight.
This is a tempest in a teacup. You might as well cancel Pathfinder because you don't like overland adventures. Sometimes you get what you really like, sometimes you don't. And, if the later is true more than the former, you may want to find another product line more to your tastes.
Again, the problem is not expressing a preference, it's proclaiming expertise (adventures with less gore sell better!) or authority (everyone who is not a fanboy agrees with me) when you have neither.
I don't think you're particularly guilty of this doppleganger, but that's what got me riled up, and I think it's what got Ebolav riled up too.
Ladies! Gentlemen! Please! We've kept the tone civil in the thread for this long, lets not break down into a bunch of WotC Board savages...
That said, I'd like to break all of you by saying that Mammy Graul is one sweet lookin' woman...
Ladies! Gentlemen! Please! We've kept the tone civil in the thread for this long, lets not break down into a bunch of WotC Board savages...
That said, I'd like to break all of you by saying that Mammy Graul is one sweet lookin' woman...
Mammy, can I just nestle into your fat folds please?
I have no complaints about either module in terms of gore, though I suppose I was surprised that two horror themed adventures would appear back to back. It made me wonder if it would be a consistent trend for this adventure path, and if Karzoug would end up being a real sick S.O.B. And I actually liked the fact that the bad guys weren't just a bunch of dumb brutes, but were honest to god monsters that the PCs should feel no remorse wiping from the face of Golarion.
The interesting thing about Hook Mountain Massacre is that its most disturbing elements are "off camera" so to speak. I shuddered a bit reading the description for the ogre chieftain... The whole enjoying the way people's screams sound inside his head as he's gnawing their nose or lips off. That's distressing stuff, but its likely the players will never find out about that particular trait. One would hope, anyhow.
Torture porn, though? I don't see it.
I'm with you on that mwbeeler, but check my earlier post on D&D as a medium. D&D is a great way to teach people that horrors in society aren't necessarily inevitable trains running us over as we stand on the tracks, but that we can and should take action to oppose and stop them. For me, that's the best argument for extreme villains in D&D, and at least some attempts at realistically dealing with their terrible atrocities.
The problem with that argument is that the way villians are dealt with in D&D usually involves a yard long piece of sharpened steel. Now, I don't think dealing with villians in that fashion is going to have very much useful application to the RW.
Mammy, can I just nestle into your fat folds please?Ladies! Gentlemen! Please! We've kept the tone civil in the thread for this long, lets not break down into a bunch of WotC Board savages...
That said, I'd like to break all of you by saying that Mammy Graul is one sweet lookin' woman...
You know, you can pick a roll if you can't find the ...
Sorry, sorry, that was nasty, does anyone have any flour ...Yuck, yuck
Ladies! Gentlemen! Please! We've kept the tone civil in the thread for this long, lets not break down into a bunch of WotC Board savages...
That said, I'd like to break all of you by saying that Mammy Graul is one sweet lookin' woman...
Amen to that! Cushion for the...er....nevermind...
Mammy, can I just nestle into your fat folds please?Ladies! Gentlemen! Please! We've kept the tone civil in the thread for this long, lets not break down into a bunch of WotC Board savages...
That said, I'd like to break all of you by saying that Mammy Graul is one sweet lookin' woman...
You know, you can pick a roll if you can't find the ...
Sorry, sorry, that was nasty, does anyone have any flour ...
Yuck, yuck
Oh no, you just went there!
My PhD says I do....the word was used because of the demanding nature of the original post, and that that was probably the only way for him to be placated, like the customer who is ALWAYS right, no matter what...Dictionary.com 'retroactive'. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Wikipedia 'hyperbole'In what area is your PhD? What was your thesis? Did you include the term "ungrateful pricks' in it?
Sheesh-glad i'm not in a position where my job involves answering to ungrateful pricks like this...
Thesis=masters degree
Dissertation=doctoral degreeMine="Behavioraly, attitudinal, and decision-altering effects of violent videogames on young adults" (shameless plug-soon to be published in a leading psychology journal)
But remember, Nick said that this was the worst that this particular AP was going to get. If we were led to believe that every Pathfinder was going to be this sick and (wonderfully-) twisted; I could more than understand the offended's concerns. However, this AP is all about sin, and one way to look at sin is as unapologistic excess. That's what these inbred Ogre-hybrids are all about. A good DM can tone down the darkness if he wants. And there was a complaint that 'Oh my gawd, the DM HAS to read this filth as well!' Good Lord, has it scarred your mind for life? You're a DM for Mystra's sake! You are supposed to think like a BBEG so you can give your player's a decent challenge for their XP! Nick Logue has just made your job easier! His bad guys are really, really bad! I mean if this stuff bothers you so much, don't ever watch CNN or MSNBC; that's real blood on there. Can you save your players from that imagery?
HMM is a lot like The X-Files episode Home. You can skip that episode if it really bothers you and plug in another Side Trek. Or use the maps and scenarios but just make the baddies 'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' who listen to Hannah Montana and Regis and Kelly.
Did we really need such a heavy-handed thread for this? James' Intro told me what to expect before I ever started reading the module.
I wonder if you grasp the irony of your "heavy-handed" comment which immediately followed suggesting that those that don't want a bunch of gruesome details should be having "'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' who listen to Hannah Montana and Regis and Kelly." Maybe both "sides" should lay off of trying to characterize the other in some kind of silly way.
Though the 'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' comment is sort of humorous in that I am going to have a lyrakien (book 2) as a prisoner to a much toned down group of ogre-kin.
Thesis=masters degree
Dissertation=doctoral degreeMine="Behavioraly, attitudinal, and decision-altering effects of violent videogames on young adults" (shameless plug-soon to be published in a leading psychology journal)
My bad on the use of thesis. Typing stream of thought will do that.
Which journal? Is behavioraly a new term?
Maybe both "sides" should lay off of trying to characterize the other in some kind of silly way.
Oh, I don't know, I kind of like the silly characterizations...:-E
Oh, I don't know, I kind of like the silly characterizations...:-E
Maybe both "sides" should lay off of trying to characterize the other in some kind of silly way.
Oh sure, it can be fun. I just find it kind of silly to suggest that not wanting gore means you want to play "Strawberry Shortcake", when most of the content of the Pathfinder books would fall into that "non-gore" group. Another way to interpret the statements about how great having the gore is, is that up to this point Pathfinder has been a crappy wanna-be PG product. Frankly, I doubt that is how most people feel, so I wonder why the slamming against products that are similiar to how most of Pathfinder has been?
Well and good, but the irritating thing is when people pop up and speak as if they represent some massive population.
Perfect summary of the forces at play here. So well explained, as always.
I wonder if you grasp the irony of your "heavy-handed" comment which immediately followed suggesting that those that don't want a bunch of gruesome details should be having "'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' who listen to Hannah Montana and Regis and Kelly." Maybe both "sides" should lay off of trying to characterize the other in some kind of silly way.
Though the 'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' comment is sort of humorous in that I am going to have a lyrakien (book 2) as a prisoner to a much toned down group of ogre-kin.
I think at least in Golarian, ogres would love to chase butterflies, as long as they were a)really big b)really tasty when deep-friend and c)had orifices....
Thesis=masters degree
Dissertation=doctoral degreeMine="Behavioraly, attitudinal, and decision-altering effects of violent videogames on young adults" (shameless plug-soon to be published in a leading psychology journal)
My bad on the use of thesis. Typing stream of thought will do that.
Which journal? Is behavioraly a new term?
No need for juvenile sarcasm now-it's called a typo
Studies accepted by journals but not yet published are considered "in press" and as such, cannot really be discussed until they are...kind of like an intellectual NDA...
Look; I've been fair and willing to listen up to this point, but if we're going to do dramatizations, I'm going to put my foot down and demand use of puppets.
Look; I've been fair and willing to listen up to this point, but if we're going to do dramatizations, I'm going to put my foot down and demand use of puppets.
Oooh ooh!!! I want to be the evil frog prince! I have the PERFECT avatar for it!
Look; I've been fair and willing to listen up to this point, but if we're going to do dramatizations, I'm going to put my foot down and demand use of puppets.
Can I be Statler?
Dibs on lambchop!
Dibs on lambchop!
ROFL-that is one MEAN lookin lampchop!!!
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But remember, Nick said that this was the worst that this particular AP was going to get. If we were led to believe that every Pathfinder was going to be this sick and (wonderfully-) twisted; I could more than understand the offended's concerns. However, this AP is all about sin, and one way to look at sin is as unapologistic excess. That's what these inbred Ogre-hybrids are all about. A good DM can tone down the darkness if he wants. And there was a complaint that 'Oh my gawd, the DM HAS to read this filth as well!' Good Lord, has it scarred your mind for life? You're a DM for Mystra's sake! You are supposed to think like a BBEG so you can give your player's a decent challenge for their XP! Nick Logue has just made your job easier! His bad guys are really, really bad! I mean if this stuff bothers you so much, don't ever watch CNN or MSNBC; that's real blood on there. Can you save your players from that imagery?
HMM is a lot like The X-Files episode Home. You can skip that episode if it really bothers you and plug in another Side Trek. Or use the maps and scenarios but just make the baddies 'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' who listen to Hannah Montana and Regis and Kelly.
Did we really need such a heavy-handed thread for this? James' Intro told me what to expect before I ever started reading the module.
I wonder if you grasp the irony of your "heavy-handed" comment which immediately followed suggesting that those that don't want a bunch of gruesome details should be having "'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' who listen to Hannah Montana and Regis and Kelly." Maybe both "sides" should lay off of trying to characterize the other in some kind of silly way.
Though the 'Butterfly-Chasing Ogres' comment is sort of humorous in that I am going to have a lyrakien (book 2) as a prisoner to a much toned down group of ogre-kin.
Of course I grasp the irony. Being ironic can be a great tool when hammering one's point. For some it might lessen the relevance of my argument; but heck, it's fun. When discussing a polarizing argument, shouldn't both polar extremes be put on display for the discerning moderates to ridicule and guffaw over?
You have to admit including the now-fashionable term 'torture porn' in your topic line was going to garner some harsh responses?
I do think you are handling the toning down of the ogrekin admirably (no sarcasm). Good luck with that.
Darn thread is keeping me awake.
The more I think on it, I’d be placated by a 8 point “includes mature themes” in the bottom corner.
Aight, back to bed.
Well and good, but the irritating thing is when people pop up and speak as if they represent some massive population. "mature audiences want this" or "adults like that" or "only brain dead 13 year olds with AC/DC t-shirts and a substantial pokemon collection like such explicit content". It's one thing to say "I don't like this, I'd like something less gory" rather than "This is unacceptable to all decent and good persons, for shame, for shame."
And, calling people yes-men is just a great way to be an a~@!!%#. There are a great number of regular Paizoians posting on this thread that are not comfortable with the level of gore in Pathfinder. Unfortunately, there are some self-important keepers of the community's moral code that want to assert an objective content standard that does not exist.
Perhaps the existence of this thread shows that Pathfinder #3 is about where the line is on this type of adventure. Like I said, if you take the range of Paizo products, including Gamemastery modules, I think you will see that there is much more to their product, and Nick Logue's writings, than gonzo violence for the sake of gonzo violence. There are posters on this thread that are going off the deep end and drawing the conclusion that this one adventure represents the way...
Well said, Sebastian. I've been so far enjoying the discussion until the *yes-men* comment. So far, I could see Pres Man's POV, and I enjoyed expressing my POV.
For those that find the HMM deceptively overexplicit: I think just by the nature of reading the side-bars of all the upcoming adventures from Burnt Offerings should be a good gauge where the RotRL adventures would be going. When involving any creature that creates the Half-(whatever) racial template, how would you figure that happens if not by the occasional *unwanted* unions? I think this would be a safe assumption to expect from adventures from any such creature. If there was an AP on Orcs, I'd expect the same possability when coming across half-Orcs. Even feral Half-Elves in an AP might venture into some raised-eyebrow territory. You know that the next adventures will involve Stone Giants, the White Dragon, and then the Runelord. Of course those AP's will be toned down. CotCT takes place mostly in Korvosa, and I wouldn't expect anything beyond what a group brings to the table.
Hmmm....
It appears that once again, I find myself in the wrong camp. I never thought of myself as a backward, prudish, over-sensitive moron, but apparently, those of us don't like the direction of RoTL has gone are just that.
You've convinced me.
I guess I'll cancel my subscription today.
I think just because you feel you're in the wrong camp doesn't mean it's the end of the world or that *the gloves come off*. I also think you have a right to your opinion as I have a right to mine. I love to really get engaged in a good, festive thread, particularly now that I'm laid off and eager to get involved in a good distraction. Except for perhaps the *yes-man* or *anyone who enjoys HMM must be (**)*, I can't see why it's so bad to disagree. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. That's just silly. I'm so far left field, I'd be insane to think I held common opinion with most folks. I'm used to actually being in the minority. I'd hate to think that simply because there's been disagreement that this is the sole reason to cancel something that won't be the same thing twice.
The adventure is specific on some atrocities. The female ogrekin's lovers for one
I dare ask you to point out where Pathfinder #3 actually spells out *all* atrocities. It suggests, but what we do see is par for the course for any D&D game I've ever been in since I was 17.
That someone has a lover outside the accepted norm, especially if the character is not supposed to be the norm, is not spelling out an atrocity. It is noting that an atrocity may have occurred offscreen.
Talking about size of organs, speed of insertion, and noises made by those involved in an act is "spelling out" an atrocity.
It's controversial because it has a bare boob in it. For some people that's a big deal.But not for most people. And that's why we mention how common a nude breast is in out culture. It's proof most people don;t consider it a big deal. And that's important. Because some people are offended by women who don;t need their father's permission to marry, unwed sex, and people casting spells fer goodness sake. So we can;t ensure there is never anything to offend anyone.
A bare breast, or even full nudity in line art, is PG-13. If there's no penetration, nudity is not an R issue. Period.
Doppleganger: There are no female ogre-kin lovers. It only mentions an "unhealthy crush on Jaagreth Kreeg."
I think Dungeon Grrrl brings up a good point. I recall last year when I proposed to my wife, my mother-in-law and one of their family friends were offended that I had not first asked her father for *permission* first. (Ironic, since my father-in-law refused to do the same when marrying her, but did cause bad blood between them and their in-laws.) I know some people are conservative, but I want to marry someone who can think for herself. I don't think of others who might still prefer permission first, or having horrible nightmares after seeing an exposed breast as backward. I just view them as different than myself.
Hmmm...sorry you didn't find Hook well written, well storied or usable. For the record though the atrocities of Hook are far from spelled out. Find one description of an "on screen" sex act or instance of violence (beyond the D&D norm) and show it to me. There is nothing in boxed text, in fact, NOTHING at all intended for player consumption that is R rated. The "atrocities" are implied in most cases. No where is written "as you open the door Mammy Graul is riding her undead son like a fat jubbly jockey in the race of her disgusting life."
And that, ironically, is the problem. Since none of this is apparent to the PCs or has any game effect, why did *I* have to read it? Unless the PCs start giving captive ogres psychotherapy, there is no way that any of this background fluff will come out. You have provided background information that the PCs are unlikely to discover and that does little to advance the plot, give the PCs clues, or drive the story. What purpose does it serve, then - other than to be gratuitous?
I'd like to make a stronger point here though: The beautiful thing of a roleplaying game ...
I have no problem with badguys being evil with a capital "E". In fact, I love the Nualia character from PF #1. Her backstory and motivation provide ample fuel to the adventure. As a DM, I can see where she has been and where she is coming from and I can reveal that to the players in meaningful ways that will help them ultimately piece the overall story arc together.
The ogres at Hook Mtn., frankly lack any of that. They're are brutal because they are ogres. They rape and eat people because they are ogres. Hell, they could be lions, it would make no difference. Lions eat people too.
I want the focus of the adventure to be PCs battling Evil, not a bunch of dumb brutes. Your excessive descriptions of the ogres actually detract from the heroic focus of the game by turning it into a gore-fest instead of an epic struggle of...
Part of the irony is that you *didn't* read it. You're projecting the backstory and not reading what you think you are. As was mentioned in the forward of HMM, any actual details have been omitted. I would strongly disagree about what *was* written about the Ogres and the Ogre-kin. I wanted to know why they are they, what they do, and why the PC's should handle them besides the point that their stat blocks say CE. Otherwise, why not just shack up with someone with detect evil and start from one side of Varisia to the other, slaughtering all who register as *evil*? That way, you don't need to worry about any story at all, just roll some random encounters and everyone is happy.
I think part of the obvious advantages a party can hold over Ogres *would* be their low Will saves. If you recall from the first two Pathfinders, every episode should include an element that one class might exploit to transform the encounter into an absolute cakewalk. In Thistletop, a Druid can ignore the thistles, in the Haunted House a Paladin can ignore the haunts. In HMM, I'd imagine anyone with a wide AoE spells that exploit a low Will save would be expected. It's the moment for the one person to shine in the spotlight.
However, reading the back of the book and knowing the genre/author, I'm pretty sure that there are going to be scenes of violence.Bingo.
I think the issue at hand is that the modules break expectations. I think that's terrific, but because it isn't something you expect when you grab a D20 module off the rack, is why you would label it even if related written works aren't labeled. You pick up a Dean Koontz in the horror section, you know what to expect, i.e. it doesn't need a warning. You grab Pathfinder, you get a "holy crap, did that dude just sodomize his mom? What did I buy? This is awesome, but...uh...I sure hope no one sees me with it."
Yeah, like, give me a Hustler, 6 packs of smokes, two unusually small condoms....psstt..and a copy of "Pathfinder."
I think that Pathfinder is a far cry from Hustler, although why would you feel embarrased about buying cigarettes and condoms? I have never felt any shame buying condoms. If I smoked, I'd have no problems buying those either. When I read HMM, I did not read anywhere that detailed sodomy. What were you reading? Can you give a page number? I have brought every issue of Pathfinder and read them at my wife's Yarn Shoppe which lies in a conservative stretch in California. No one has yet to take issue with me bringing them. It would be much different if I brought a Hustler to read there.
In B&N, I can pick up full-color, illustrated books on sexual tips and positions without warning labels. Sometimes when we go there, we have fun taking books off the shelf to read them while standing in the aisle. There's nothing explicit or graphic in Pathfinder.
Doppleganger: There are no female ogre-kin lovers. It only mentions an "unhealthy crush on Jaagreth Kreeg."
I was trying to discretely imply Mammy. She's a female ogre-kin. Her lovers are her children.
Werd. Thanks Dungeon Grrrl. You really summed up what I meant by "off screen." I went out of my way to ensure there is no discussion of size of organs, speed of insertion, and noises made.Well, mostly, and James caught the few instances that snuck out of my diseased mind. ;-)
You are most welcome, sir. Your one of my favorit adventur writers (along with Monte cook and Owen Stevens, who both seem to be out of the game -- your all I have left!), so I am glad I cuold help in any way.
So... any chance of getting a hold of the things James caught and cut?
See folks, this stuff can impact a game. what if an evil group goes through the adventure and tries to negotiate, or even take over the ogres?
What if a group has detect evil work diferently for different gods, based on the crimes of each person detected?
What if you use psychic rules and a character has retrocognition?
What if a character can travel through time?
What if a character uses a hat of disguise to try to infiltrate the ogre group?
These have all happened in grousp I play with, even in a "simple" dungeon crawl. So knowing what the bad guys do in their off hours helps make them more than "Room 4A: Three ogres. One is female. They attack."
One of the reasons I love Nicky is I get a feel for what he foes are doing and why. That makes running his adventures with a complex and wild bunch of players much easier.
Doppleganger: There are no female ogre-kin lovers. It only mentions an "unhealthy crush on Jaagreth Kreeg."I was trying to discretely imply Mammy. She's a female ogre-kin. Her lovers are her children.
It's implied but not mentioned or detailed. The text says that her children take care of her needs. If you tell that to a small child, they'll think that the children just cook and clean for her (primarily cook). Older children might think that they help her go potty or brush her teeth. To assume *sexual* needs comes from the perspective of the reader and not the author. I think this adventure could be run for any age group that could handle D&D in general. Even with the nipple. Younger children may squeel with glee and stammer how gross she looks, but I don't think the phrase "taking care of her needs" will go anywhere where the child's/ person's thoughts haven't been accustomed to going in the first place.
The text also says
She's birthed dozens of strong ogrekin sons over the decades, and although her childbearing days are now behind her, she still enjoys visits from her sons and the occasional ogre from the highlands.
Instead this pit is filled with the tiny bones of every girl child Mammy has birthed-a grisly testament to the overabundance of men-folk in the Graul Family. Mammy doesn't like female competition.
[Hucker] has little patience for his brother-sons ..
Wow. This whole uproar (which grew from a rather sane discussion) seems to be another symptom of the "I'm Offended" movement that's infected this country, the logic of which usually runs like this: "I'M offended, so YOU should change."
This "I'm Offended" crap cuts across all socio-, political, and religious lines. I've had it up to here with it. Somethings gone seriously off kilter in our society. Seems that if you scream loud and long enough that you're offended by something, the person who's "offending" you is supposed to eventually cave in and change. And now its trickled down to my hobby game. For cryin' out loud.
Buckle on your armor, screw up your courage, man (or woman) up, and deal with it. Its a freakin' adventure module. You're the DM. Change it to your liking. Sheesh.
Our fictional characters, the heroes we create in our games, the ones that laugh in the face of despicable evil and bravely charge in where others fear to tread would be ashamed of us, sitting here all boo-hoo'ing over words and pictures in a book. Elric would look down on us in scorn. Aragorn would shake his head in disgust. Drizzt would laugh mockingly. Old Bilbo would smack us upside the head. Conan would...well, better to not imagine what Conan would do.
Ugh.
This "I'm Offended" crap cuts across all socio-, political, and religious lines. I've had it up to here with it. Somethings gone seriously off kilter in our society. Seems that if you scream loud and long enough that you're offended by something, the person who's "offending" you is supposed to eventually cave in and change. And now its trickled down to my hobby game. For cryin' out loud.
Yes, something is seriously off kilter in our society when people on a company's messageboard discuss the reasons that they didn't care for portions of the company's product.
Yes, something is seriously off kilter in our society when people on a company's messageboard discuss the reasons that they didn't care for portions of the company's product.
This "I'm Offended" crap cuts across all socio-, political, and religious lines. I've had it up to here with it. Somethings gone seriously off kilter in our society. Seems that if you scream loud and long enough that you're offended by something, the person who's "offending" you is supposed to eventually cave in and change. And now its trickled down to my hobby game. For cryin' out loud.
It came eerily close to the WotC forum IMO.
I recall the other references as well with the hillbillie jargon. I recall being 10 years old and thinking it was funny hearing terms like "sister-momma" from cartoons and watching Ma and Pa Kettle. I think there's a difference from saying essentially that the Graul family tree has one branch and actually supplying cut-scenes of the Grauls takin' care of b'ness in black-N-white with step-by-step photos. That kind of stuff should stick to Frontierland in Disneyland where it belongs. Those banjo-playing bears are disgusting with the hot chocolate filth talk.
Wow. This whole uproar (which grew from a rather sane discussion) seems to be another symptom of the "I'm Offended" movement that's infected this country, the logic of which usually runs like this: "I'M offended, so YOU should change."
This "I'm Offended" crap cuts across all socio-, political, and religious lines. I've had it up to here with it. Somethings gone seriously off kilter in our society. Seems that if you scream loud and long enough that you're offended by something, the person who's "offending" you is supposed to eventually cave in and change. And now its trickled down to my hobby game. For cryin' out loud.
Ugh.
I agree completely-I'm all for differing viewpoints and meaningful debate, but I have ZERO tolerance when one group asserts that, because they object to something, that it must change, BECAUSE they object to it...not only this is inherently circular, but if taken the extreme, would prevent much of anything from being written, because *someone* would be offended by everything.
This is similar to the argument about television/movie/videogame violence, actually. If I am offended by something, I can certainly voice my objection (which several people have done rather eloquently on this board, others not so much) and, as a last resort, show my dissatisfaction with my wallet (i.e. changing the channel, etc). But asking for broad changes to something that most people are fine with is just not very realistic.
I can understand people objecting to the content, esp of PF#3...so do what some people are doing, voice that objection so the people in charge know that pushing the envelope even more in the future might not be the best idea, and CHANGE IT for YOUR campaign. Don't force them to water it down in some way b/c you don't like it.
I agree completely-I'm all for differing viewpoints and meaningful debate, but I have ZERO tolerance when one group asserts that, because they object to something, that it must change, BECAUSE they object to it...not only this is inherently circular, but if taken the extreme, would prevent much of anything from being written, because *someone* would be offended by everything.
Maybe the people you are taking about are using hyperbole in their internet arguments too?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Maybe those people are using hyperbole in their internet arguments too?
Possibly, but they strike me more as the "OMG! They showed Janet Jackson's boob" types. There were a number of posters that expressed disatisfication with the content without asserting objective moral standards. It can be done.
Dopple, do you have nothing better to do than troll this board and try and provoke people with passive-aggressive sarcasm? Just wondering...
Possibly, but they strike me more as the "OMG! They showed Janet Jackson's boob" types. There were a number of posters that expressed disatisfication with the content without asserting objective moral standards. It can be done.
Maybe those people are using hyperbole in their internet arguments too?
Exactly-there is NOTHING wrong with voicing your opinion as a consumer, hell, pathfinder WANTS us to do that to help shape their fledging product into something that is as profitable as possible...and if anything, this thread helped establish the level of content that probably shouldn't be crossed anytime soon.
But the morality police don't need to be called...
I'm with you on that mwbeeler, but check my earlier post on D&D as a medium. D&D is a great way to teach people that horrors in society aren't necessarily inevitable trains running us over as we stand on the tracks, but that we can and should take action to oppose and stop them. For me, that's the best argument for extreme villains in D&D, and at least some attempts at realistically dealing with their terrible atrocities.The problem with that argument is that the way villians are dealt with in D&D usually involves a yard long piece of sharpened steel. Now, I don't think dealing with villians in that fashion is going to have very much useful application to the RW.
Its' metaphorical. I don't think young people who play D&D learn that "sharpened steel" is the answer to the world's pain (and more than they learn that "magical spells!" are). What they do get a is a sense of courage in the face of evil, and the idea that they can take action - whether its speaking out about a wrong, opposing an unjust war, telling a teacher when their dad beats the s~@& out of them.
To quote Confucius: "The opposite of courage is seeing what is right and not doing it" in other words: Take action when you see something wrong.
As to why things sometimes, when it's called for only, need to be extreme in art/expression, let's turn to Kafka: "Art must axe the frozen sea within us."
Back to D&D teaching young people to take action, let's turn to the awesome doofy dude in THE BEST X-Files episode of all time: "I didn't play Dungeons and Dragons all my life and not learn a little something about courage."