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Elemental Quiver


Round 1 - Open Call: Design a wondrous item

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Andoran RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

Tied to one of the four traditional elements, four varieties of this quiver may be crafted. The quiver may hold up to 10 arrows; arrows which are drawn from the quiver and then fired from any bow transform into a bolt of elemental energy which deals the bows' normal die of damage as the elemental type. Any additional enhancements from the bow apply as normal.

Fire Element (Fire)-Fashioned of red leather with golden words of power inscribed in Ignan.
Water Element (Cold)-Fashioned of dark blue leather with light blue words of power inscribed in Aquan.
Air Element (Sonic)-Fashioned of white leather with black words of power inscribed in Auran.
Earth Element (Acid)-Fashioned of dark green leather with white words of power inscribed in Terran.

Moderate Evocation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Shatter, or Ray of Frost; Price 5,000gp; Weight 2 lbs

Qadira Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge

Nice energy substitution item. Not sure it's quite up to superstar quality, but I like the simplicity of it.

And it's good to have something for archers other than +X weapons.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

How long do the arrows have to be in there to get the benefit? Can I just jam 10 more in there during combat and have 10 more cool arrows? I wish he had addressed that. I have to presume it can simply be reloaded to max of 10 at any time using an appropriate action.

I like it too, though. Simple, focused, limited, not a swiss army knife. My players would like it. Creation and pricing look right.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

I think this would be even simpler (and cooler) if you could pick your energy type a la Green Arrow. Someone should really do a quiver of trick arrows for D&D. This is close, but it isn't awesome enough to be an automatic keeper, and I too wish the author had provided more detail on how to handle refilling it.

Qadira Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge

It's not that complicated, guys. The quiver holds 10 arrows. When you need to refill it, you put more arrows in. How is that complex?

This is Green Arrow's quiver, more or less.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Can I refill the entire quiver as a standard action?

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

That's why I asked the question. You can't tell me that wont come up in play:

Ranger: "Ok, I shoot him with my fire arrow!"
DM: "Wait, you used your 10th last round."
Ranger: "OK then I put 10 more in and shoot him! Its just a move action, right? I can do that and shoot."
DM: "Uh, hold on..." [gets out PHB and looks at the list of actions]

If it is one move action to get new arrows and stuff the arrows in the quiver, he can reload and shoot with a bow (with his standard action).
If it is a standard action to get them and stuff them in, he can't do it and attack that round but he can reload the quiver and take a move action.
If it is a move action plus a move action to get the new arrows and put them in then he can't attack that round either and also cannot move.
So it makes a difference what it is.

It is most likely two move actions--one to retrieve the stored arrows or pick them up if you had them out already (aka stuck in teh ground waiting for you) and another move action to sheathe them.

I think that is unique enough to at least be included. I dont know. Maybe that is too nit picky. But in my view that is the single question that is going to be disputed at the game table. So that is the stuff I want in the description.

That said, the issue was pretty easy to resolve by simply looking at the move action chart--BUT I've been playing 3E for a long time like the rest of you and I didnt know the answer off the top of my head. I was presumign a standard action would cover it. But if you look at the rules for some comparison it appears that 2 move actions is really the better way to describe it.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

I still like the item. I just wish it said that it is likely a move action to retrieve more arrows from storage and another move action to sheathe those retrieved arrows in the quiver. They are then immediately available for use.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

You know knew a thing or two about trick arrows?

Hank the Ranger, that's who.

I'm ok with this sticking around for now.

Qadira Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge

Do you ever have 10 rounds of missile fire in a row? I just don't see that coming up much. People refill the quiver between combats.

The elemental energy bolts, now those are cool. I want to be doing fire damage or acid damage when I shoot a bow against a troll, because that's good fun. Keep it around a little while. If we find a better quiver item, great.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Yes I agree, for sure. Please don't take my questions to suggest I think we should get rid of this one. We for sure shouldn't.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

Yeah I like it too. Its fun.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

Kept.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

By the way, no I dont usually have 10 rounds of missile fire in a row. BUT it doesnt take 10 rounds to fire 10 arrows given the various feats, etc.


My favorite item after a quick read through all the Round 1 winners.

As mentioned by the Judges, a Green Arrow-like quiver that gives an archer more versatility is a welcome addition to my games.

And as a plus, I'm pretty sure there are quivers item card from Elements of Power that could be used for at least 2 of the elemental types.


As a guy into traditional archery in the real world, and as a DM that primarily runs wilderness campaigns, there have been plenty of bows and arrows and quivers cycling through my world over the years. I have to say that the current ranger in my campaign would LOVE an item like this, though. Very cool without being insanely powerful.

I'm glad the judges recognized the Green Arrow connection but that doesn't take anything away from the usefulness and the "I gotta have it" factor (at least for certain character builds) of this item.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

That's really cool. Really flavorful. Really bad-ass. But doesn't actually increase your damage output (Good for balance and keeps cost down.) Instead, let's you bypass Damage Reduction and deal with certain enemies (Troll, etc). Since it doesn't allow you to pick the type, doesn't just magically let you deal with whatever.

I like it. I wish I designed it. Good show.

(Does expose problems with matching elements with energy types past fire. Which is an inherent game problem. I'd have just made them energy-aligned to begin with.)


How is this item original? It is almost an exact copy of the "Quiver of Energy" found on page 172 of the Magic Compendium.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Well, for starters the judges don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every item ever published for D&D.


Erik Mona wrote:
Well, for starters the judges don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every item ever published for D&D.

No, but surely plagiarism should be grounds for rejection, whether the judges knew about the item or not.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013

bcgambrell wrote:
How is this item original? It is almost an exact copy of the "Quiver of Energy" found on page 172 of the Magic Compendium.

There's a key difference: the quiver of energy adds 1d6 of elemental damage. This item changes the bolt into an energy type, adding no additional damage. I find it much more interesting than the MIC version.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

Russ Taylor wrote:
There's a key difference: the quiver of energy adds 1d6 of elemental damage. This item changes the bolt into an energy type, adding no additional damage. I find it much more interesting than the MIC version.

I agree. This version is much more interesting.

(Disclaimer: I do not own the MIC, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the stated difference).

Taldor

Meh. Not a very wonderful wondrous item. Doesn't fill a folkloric niche, doesn't do something weird and wonky with the game experience, doesn't seem like it could propel a "And then we remembered we had X" story down the road.

It's good, but not a Superstar.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

CNB wrote:
No, but surely plagiarism should be grounds for rejection, whether the judges knew about the item or not.

Plagiarism is a serious charge, and I'm not certain that it's one you meant to make.

Or are you suggesting that the author of this item intentionally copied an item from another source?


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I like it...

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

cappadocius wrote:

Meh. Not a very wonderful wondrous item. Doesn't fill a folkloric niche, doesn't do something weird and wonky with the game experience, doesn't seem like it could propel a "And then we remembered we had X" story down the road.

It's good, but not a Superstar.

You raise an interesting question that we had to grapple with--what is the judging criteria?

What makes a wondrous item?

Your criteria was not ours.

We didnt care if it "filled a folkloric niche" or "did something weird and wonky with the game experience" or "propels a story down the road." I'm not saying yours are right or ours are right. I am just saying we didnt use your criteria.

I found that to be a very interesting part of the process-deciding how to judge the entries.


Erik Mona wrote:
Or are you suggesting that the author of this item intentionally copied an item from another source?

I wasn't intending to suggest that this item was plagiarized--I'm not familiar with the item in the MIC, and I haven't had time to look it up and compare. Based on some of the comments, it doesn't sound like it's similar enough to set off any alarms.

I just wanted to point out that, if an item was plagiarized, that should be grounds for disqualification, if not worse.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

CNB, cappadocious, we know you guys are upset. And we do want your input, even if it is negative. But lets make sure this doesnt turn into a sour grapes fest. If you really want to influence people with your comments, which I presume you do, then maybe wait a day, reflect, and then post. There is nothing wrong with pointing out flaws with submissions. In fact, it can be very constructive. But to me (and maybe I am wrong) but it feels a bit destructive from you two right now.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

CNB, I agree, if there was true plagarism the item would be rejected or disqualified.

That said, even items that are very similar with ones that have been published is hardly grounds for a claim of plagarism.

I cant claim to have total knowledge of all items ever created, so if someone sees plagarism please let the judges know perhaps by private email.

I would hate for an item to be tainted by an unfounded suggestion of plagarism in its thread.

So I ask this--if you suspect it, email or contact one of us judges. DO NOT put that kind of stuff in an item's thread.

IN fact, I am going to review the item you are referencing so that I can say conclusively that there is no plagarism with this item. If anyone can do that for me, it would be appreciated.


I wasn't "charging" plagiarism. I'm sure the author worked hard and came up with (in his opinion) an original item. I discovered an item tonight in the MITC that was very similar to one I had submitted, too. It seemed, IMHO, the rules stressed originality. The item is a good idea, but somebody else had the same good idea before. If originality were the crucial consideration, then I don't see how Elemental Quiver made the cut.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Again, the judges do not have superhuman knowledge of every item ever invented for D&D ever.

Sorry! :)


Clark Peterson wrote:
I would hate for an item to be tainted by an unfounded suggestion of plagarism in its thread.

I want to be clear, I have no knowledge of the MIC item at all. I was just commenting in the context of the thread, which went:

bcgambrell: This item is an exact copy of X
Erik Mona: Well, we can't be aware of every item out there.

Which seemed to me to be a little cavalier towards the implicit accusation.

Qadira Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge

CNB wrote:

I was just commenting in the context of the thread, which went:

bcgambrell: This item is an exact copy of X
Erik Mona: Well, we can't be aware of every item out there.

Which seemed to me to be a little cavalier towards the implicit accusation.

Uh, if there was plagiarism, it's an automatic disqualification. But no one has stepped forward with evidence of that. So I'm not sure what's cavalier about it, exactly.

If someone wants to level the charge, do so. If not, I think a good item is being unfairly tainted by whispers of impropriety, and that's shameful.


Why would it be plagiarism?

The contest was supposed to be crafting a magic item using the SRD mechanics (Foundation for all magic items in the game). That is all most magic items are normally substituing a spell for a different spell to gain a different magical effect than another spell in game.

Consider the Bags of Holding, the Heward's Handy Haversack and the Portable Hole they all basically just hold things in dimensional spaces differently. They are all based on level 5 conjuration spells.

Very interesting utility item. What I like most about it is, it is one of the few Top 32 magic items I could see a PC actually choosing to use in a game with all the differerent magic items available and limited to suggested wealth levels. IMO that is what makes it really creative because most PCs don't use cool magic items they use useful magic items in game.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6 aka adanedhel9

Yeah, I didn't find this item that original at all. There've been similar items in my game for some time, and I've heard similar ideas from multiple different places, including the MIC.

Plus, I find it odd that he replaced electricity (the standard air energy) with sonic.


Wolfgang Baur wrote:
CNB wrote:

I was just commenting in the context of the thread, which went:

bcgambrell: This item is an exact copy of X
Erik Mona: Well, we can't be aware of every item out there.

Which seemed to me to be a little cavalier towards the implicit accusation.

Uh, if there was plagiarism, it's an automatic disqualification. But no one has stepped forward with evidence of that. So I'm not sure what's cavalier about it, exactly.

If someone wants to level the charge, do so. If not, I think a good item is being unfairly tainted by whispers of impropriety, and that's shameful.

Whether its intentional plagiarism or designed independently, I think the larger point is that this item should be disqualified because it lacks originality. There are items that made the cut that certainly very original.

I would disqualify the item I submitted (Portable Pavilion of Perfect Pause), too. My item did far more the Personal Oasis, but it is too similar to get by. I am sure Joseph Yerger created his item without looking at the one book that has a large compilation of 3.5 items. I looked through MITC before I wrote my item up, and I missed Personal Oasis completely. I found it tonight when I was trying to find the Quiver of Energy. I would have hoped someone would have vetted the winners because I'm sure you would eventually want to publish those items without WotC breathing down your neck later.

I thought the point of the contest was to find someone who had a command of the source material, too. After all, I sure you wouldn't want someone to submit a copy of nation like Cormyr or Gondor regardless of how ignorant its creator was that someone had done it before.

Qadira Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge

adanedhel9 wrote:

Yeah, I didn't find this item that original at all. There've been similar items in my game for some time, and I've heard similar ideas from multiple different places, including the MIC.

Plus, I find it odd that he replaced electricity (the standard air energy) with sonic.

And here I thought all the winners would be working on their country submissions... There's only 4 days and 18 hours left. :)

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Well, BCG, here's hoping you like this contestant's next item, because he's already made it through to the next round.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

adanedhel9 wrote:

Yeah, I didn't find this item that original at all. There've been similar items in my game for some time, and I've heard similar ideas from multiple different places, including the MIC.

Plus, I find it odd that he replaced electricity (the standard air energy) with sonic.

Actually I like that, since Blue dragons have the (Earth) subtype.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

Wolfgang Baur wrote:


And here I thought all the winners would be working on their country submissions... There's only 4 days and 18 hours left. :)

Muse hasn't struck me yet. In the meantime (and while I'm in class anyway), I want to see the cool stuff my fellow writers came up with.

Erik Mona wrote:
Well, BCG, here's hoping you like this contestant's next item, because he's already made it through to the next round.

You mean he submitted already? Ye gods. That was quick.

adanedhel9 wrote:
Plus, I find it odd that he replaced electricity (the standard air energy) with sonic.

I disagree. Tome and Blood paired Air with Cold. Energy types after fire don't pair up with Elemental types properly. (Why would water mean ice, except where both oppose fire?)

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I have to say that this was probably the weakest item for me in the top 32. Maybe it's my low tolerance of elemental themed gear - which tends to be way overdone. I didn't see anything unique about this item.

But, maybe it's just not my niche, and maybe it's a simple item done well, which is itself hard to pull off. I'll be interested in what this contestant does in the country round. The last thing I want to see is another element themed entry.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

Just some notes of clarification:

#1. I've never been a big fan of DC comics (I'm a Marvel Man) so I had no idea of any similarity to the Green Arrow in any regard, thanks for the reference though as my comic geek player will love that.

#2. My intent was for a simple item that would be beneficial at lower levels and still be useful at higher levels and not be discarded like that first Ring of Protection +1. Used in proper min/max combinations this can be lethal, eg. Fire Quiver with a +1 Bow of Frost. Personally, I'd think the most popular variant would be the Sonic or Acid as few things are resistant to those elements.

#3. I actually got the Magic Item Compendium a few days after submitting my entry, and still haven't gone through its' entirety. I agree that there are similarities between the items, the primary difference in that mine does no extra damage just transforms the damage type. Being that the rules did refer to the glut of non-OGL sourcebooks out, and the admission that most people will not be familiar with all or most, this is still fair. There was no intent of copying, or even reinventing the wheel as it were. This was my attempt, using only the SRD, to fill a niche which would be beneficial to a wide variety of characters of varying levels. It is a forgone conclusion that in any situation with many people building off of the same source material will come up with unique results that may look similar or have the same feel. That is just standard evolutionary practice.

#4. Personally, my hardest part of creating this were the required spells. As I wanted this to be a lower level item, I set myself a cap of 2nd level spells; the only spell with the Cold descriptor in the SRD below 2nd level is the 0th Ray of Frost, next is 4th level Ice Storm. This was my biggest concern for this item.

#5. I amazed that the biggest concern with the judges was the lack of refilling mechanics being written again. I considered filling the quiver would fall under the normal mechanics of the game and not necessitate reprinting or clarification. I'll admit I goofed, I should have had it be a 20 arrow quiver as standard, thats a typo on my part.

#6. Lastly, No I haven't submitted Round 2 yet. Although I intend to prove myself worthy of having this opportunity to advance. Thank you all.

Osirion RPG Superstar 2013 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Steven T. Helt

1. I like that this item adds something besides a weapon for the ranged warrior, like one of the judges said. My favorite things in DnD are synergystic items that improve your chosen schtick, or bring your more secondary abilities up a notch so you're a complete character. This item prevents the party's archer from being relegated to 'Hope I crit so I can get a few points past the lich's DR.' Also, the melee weapon mastery type has a sword with synergistic abilites, and five feats that make him a melee weapon terror. The archer needs something besides a magic bow, an assortment of arrows, and bracers of archery. In this game, archers tend to be identical. This helps.

2. It, to me, is not the most superstar or original item. It does fill a need, and it does protect itself from being broken. But it bears some similarity to the MIC item. That's not the same thing as plagiarism, and that word shouldn't even be used on these boards. Just go with 'similar in function or effect or application to existing item.', and also realize that no one knows all items everywhere. And I wouldn't talk to anyone that did. Get a woman, dude.

Hehe. If Superstar needs 2 more alternates (or fifty more if I'm that far down the list), my country submission was going to be fully drafted tonight and tweaked over the next three days. So, it's ready. : }

Andoran Star Voter 2014

I like this item. Energy substitution is always useful, and keeps this item relevant at higher levels.

And nothing about this item is plagiarism, which is a charge people should be very hesistant in using. Sure, this item is similar to the quiver of energy (MIC 172), but similarity does not equate plagiarism. I prefer this item over the quiver of energy, which I view as overpriced.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
James Hunnicutt wrote:

I like this item. Energy substitution is always useful, and keeps this item relevant at higher levels.

And nothing about this item is plagiarism, which is a charge people should be very hesistant in using. Sure, this item is similar to the quiver of energy (MIC 172), but similarity does not equate plagiarism. I prefer this item over the quiver of energy, which I view as overpriced.

Everything he just said. It's kind of a classic idea, but executed well (better than the MIC example, IMHO). I think sour grapes are behind many of the earlier complaints.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
bcgambrell wrote:


Whether its intentional plagiarism or designed independently, I think the larger point is that this item should be disqualified because it lacks originality. There are items that made the cut that certainly very original.

There are literally thousands, probably tens of thousands of magical items and spell effects out there in d20, D&D 3.x and older editions of the game. You can multiply that number even further if you include other games, literature, comics etc… I would be surprised that if you searched hard enough you could not find things that are similar – perhaps very similar – to many of the items in the top 32. I hardly think that a thematic similarity to an item outside the SRD is grounds for a disqualification.

And industry professionals or not, I do not think the judges should be expected to have encyclopaedic knowledge of all magical items in print, nor should they be expected to trawl through these sources to check them.

Taldor

Clark Peterson wrote:
CNB, cappadocious, we know you guys are upset. And we do want your input, even if it is negative. But lets make sure this doesnt turn into a sour grapes fest. If you really want to influence people with your comments, which I presume you do, then maybe wait a day, reflect, and then post. There is nothing wrong with pointing out flaws with submissions. In fact, it can be very constructive. But to me (and maybe I am wrong) but it feels a bit destructive from you two right now.

Upset? Nah. Disappointed in myself? Definitely. I know I could've rocked the hell out on my item, but just went with my first idea and slammed it in as quickly as possible. Disappointed that not every single item blew me out of my chair? Absolutely.

When I made the comment above, I was still thinking we'd vote on these and then the 16 winners would make countries. A lot of these notes were a public airing of thoughts so I could go back and work from initial impressions when I'd go to vote.

I still stand by every single comment I made. Very obviously the judges were looking for different things that I do. Cool, great. I know I'm in a minority in tastes. I think 90% of the items I didn't like I said that I see why it beat the hell out of my item, but it just wasn't to my tastes. I don't see anything destructive about it.

But, man, elemental items make me want to stab my eyes out.

Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Not crazy about it, but it does seem like something that pretty much has to exist. Heh.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

cappadocius wrote:
Clark Peterson wrote:
CNB, cappadocious, we know you guys are upset. And we do want your input, even if it is negative. But lets make sure this doesnt turn into a sour grapes fest. If you really want to influence people with your comments, which I presume you do, then maybe wait a day, reflect, and then post. There is nothing wrong with pointing out flaws with submissions. In fact, it can be very constructive. But to me (and maybe I am wrong) but it feels a bit destructive from you two right now.

Upset? Nah. Disappointed in myself? Definitely. I know I could've rocked the hell out on my item, but just went with my first idea and slammed it in as quickly as possible. Disappointed that not every single item blew me out of my chair? Absolutely.

When I made the comment above, I was still thinking we'd vote on these and then the 16 winners would make countries. A lot of these notes were a public airing of thoughts so I could go back and work from initial impressions when I'd go to vote.

I still stand by every single comment I made. Very obviously the judges were looking for different things that I do. Cool, great. I know I'm in a minority in tastes. I think 90% of the items I didn't like I said that I see why it beat the hell out of my item, but it just wasn't to my tastes. I don't see anything destructive about it.

But, man, elemental items make me want to stab my eyes out.

I hear you. And I didnt mean to be overly harsh myself. So I appologize for that.

I just really want this to be a constructive discussion in the spirit of friendship. This is a wonderful, friendly community. A few comments from some posters have, in my humble opinion, gone outside those boundaries.

I dont think you mean to and you certainly have raised some intersting issues. In fact, I think you hit on the issue that--to me--was the most fun part of the process: figureing out what the decision criteria should be.


Very interesting debate about this item...IMHO, it's not the most original of the top 32, but the "cool" factor would be VERY big for the younger D&D player. Eric's reference to Hank the Ranger is spot on; who didn't want an energy bow when they watched those cartoons back in the day? As older, possibly more jaded D&D veterans, I can agree with some of the criticism. But as a DM introducing younger players to the game, well, they would probably jump off a bridge to get this item.....

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