Elemental Quiver


Open Call: Design a wondrous item

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Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I've slept on this one and realized that I probably failed to fully appreciate it at the time of my intitial post, mostly because I have a great dislike for elemental themed items. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that this actually a fairly subtle application of an elemental theme and not just the bag of energy bolts I first assumed it to be.

Plus, the design journal was interesting. I really like the constraints you put on yourself and the way you operated within those contstraints. Thanks for letting us behind the scenes.

This item is still probably closer to the bottom of my list than the top, but I wouldn't say it is at the very bottom anymore.

Liberty's Edge

You should take your quiver off before you go to sleep. You'll bend the arrows up and make them all missy.
Maybe that's why you're such a grumpster.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heathansson wrote:

You should take your quiver off before you go to sleep. You'll bend the arrows up and make them all missy.

Maybe that's why you're such a grumpster.

I hope you get fleas.

Abyssal fleas.

With big sharp teeth, and resistance to shampoo 5.

Spoiler:

Ah, who are we kidding, they wouldn't even need the resistance to shampoo.

Scarab Sages

Mothman wrote:


And industry professionals or not, I do not think the judges should be expected to have encyclopaedic knowledge of all magical items in print, nor should they be expected to trawl through these sources to check them.

I respectfully disagree with you? If you are going to make a call for wondrous items and ask for original items, I interpret that as meaning, the judges will know if you submit a not wholly original item. I am not alone in saying that I find it a little aggravating to hear that there may not have been as much effort in vetting items as original, perhaps it would have been better to take a little longer to evaluate.

Having said that, this game and others like it have been around for more than 30 years and many brilliant and not so brilliant items exist for this game. The judges have admitted that they have learned a lot from this process and I believe that the future editions of this contest, which I dearly hope occur, will see some significant changes to clarify the process of submission, judging and winning.

I think the 32 winners deserve to be here. Given the scope of their task, the judges did a fine job. I have seen some posts by judges and players that raise some very valid points for reflection on the rules, the judging and the winners' selection. I have seen that there are some really good items that didn't make it here and as I have said before; I do not envy neither the winners nor the judges and hope that all involved have think skin, and am looking forward to their country submissions.

One suggestion for the next time this contest runs: The winner of this contest is a judge along with the esteemed panel we had this time. That will teach him or her a lesson ;-)

Spoiler:
Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again,
What has been done will be done again;
There is nothing new under the sun.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 aka Sir_Wulf

I like the quiver! It was well presented, and since I don't own a copy of the Magic Item Compendium, it was new to me. I suspect that if the item's author had known of the quiver in that text, he would have submitted a different item.

It's really very difficult to come up with a quiver that's completely original and unexpected. Quivers hold arrows, so most magical quivers either hold more arrows or do something to them. It's hard to justify other functions thematically. Having tried to come up with an original magical quiver once, I appreciate the challenge that the author faced.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

An additional point, that I wish to make is that:

First, there is only 1 item in the Wondrous Item section of the DMG and which is Elhonna's Quiver (the one which once you fill of ANY ranged item it never runs out).

Second, that same item did NOT make it into the SRD as it is WOTC IP (though I don't see why it wouldn't have if they'd dropped the formal name as with Melf's Acid Arrow to Acid Arrow).

Third, there is NO Quiver Wondrous Item in the SRD.

Here is just some love to the ranged combatant in the party. Also I would imagine that a creative DM would extrapolate this to form an elemental stone pouch for use with a sling.


The first image I got was cartoonish energy bolts that hit stuff and either just dissipate or knock people out (or at least down). Seems like a kind of boring but useful item.

I didn't like all the descriptions of the different kinds. I would have used the words some other way.

Do fire arrows from the quiver catch things on fire?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 7

Joseph Yerger wrote:


First, there is only 1 item in the Wondrous Item section of the DMG and which is Elhonna's Quiver (the one which once you fill of ANY ranged item it never runs out).

Second, that same item did NOT make it into the SRD as it is WOTC IP (though I don't see why it wouldn't have if they'd dropped the formal name as with Melf's Acid Arrow to Acid Arrow).

Third, there is NO Quiver Wondrous Item in the SRD.

In the SRD it's Efficient Quiver. It's still there.


Okay typing this for the second time.

The first image I got was cartoonish bolts of energy bouncing off things or knocking people down (but never causing any real harm). I thought the item was boring but useful. I didn't like the descriptions of the different types thought that was a waste of words.

Do the fire arrows set things on fire?

Scarab Sages

DCII wrote:
I think the 32 winners deserve to be here.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

Ross Byers wrote:
In the SRD it's Efficient Quiver. It's still there.

I apologize, I can be blind on occasion.

Thank you all for both criticism, critique and praise. It is appreciated, and now back to work on my country.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka SmiloDan

As someone who won a spot in the top 32, then had it yanked because of word count, I think this should probably be yanked too. It's fundamentally the same thing as a previously published item.
And my item was only over the count because I had statted out the effects of the spell to make the item easier to understand. If I had just assumed the standard rules would apply, I would still be in the contest. There's more than a few sour grapes here, but I think if the goal of the contest is orginality, this item has to go too.

If someone had submitted a Sheath of Sharp Edges that doubles the critical threat range of the weapons put within it 3 times per days, would that item still be in the top 32?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka JoelF847

My question about this item is how does the existing properties of the bow or arrow interact with the quiver's power? I know the item says they still work, but if you had a flaming bow, and used an arrow from the fire version of the quiver, do you get a flaming fire arrow which does base damage of 1d6 fire +1d6 fire damage from the flaming quality? I don't have an issue with mixing elemental types (i.e. a shock fire arrow), but just not sure if you'd get a double fire arrow from my example of if they're the same bonus and won't stack.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

JoelF847 wrote:
My question about this item is how does the existing properties of the bow or arrow interact with the quiver's power? I know the item says they still work, but if you had a flaming bow, and used an arrow from the fire version of the quiver, do you get a flaming fire arrow which does base damage of 1d6 fire +1d6 fire damage from the flaming quality? I don't have an issue with mixing elemental types (i.e. a shock fire arrow), but just not sure if you'd get a double fire arrow from my example of if they're the same bonus and won't stack.

My intent through the item's wording was such that the quiver did not add anything to the arrow but instead transformed it into pure elemental energy.

In the case of the arrows from the quiver being fired from any longbow, the damage result would be a simple 1d8 [fire]. If the longbow was a +1 Longbow of Frost, then the damage result would be 1d8 [fire] + 1 + 1d6 [cold]. If it was a +1 Flaming Longbow the damage result would still be 1d8 [fire] + 1 + 1d6 [fire].

The Quiver's purpose is not to add damage, but instead to change the damage type. Consider the effectiveness of the barbarian with a maul hitting a door with the barbarian with an adamantine maul. The Sonic Quiver gives the archer something to do in this case, since the sonic ignores hardness just as adamantine does. If an archer encountered a Large Fire Elemental, he'd be doing 1d8-5 damage (against a DR 5/-), but with the Frost Quiver he'd be doing (1d8)x2 damage. This item truly shines in these infrequent occasions.


Whoever it was that mentioned Hank the Ranger (it was Erik I think) had the same general thoughts after reading this item as I did. While it was actually Hank's bow that shot firey arrows without him needing actual arrows, the mental image of an arrow made of fire immediately put Hank in mind.

What really impressed me about this item was the "flavour" description - I have a clear visual of each type of quiver and items that do that always inspire me. Add in the "coolness" factor of how an arrow taken from the quiver must look as it turns from it's "normal" form into a red-orange bolt of fire, a bluish white lance of ice, an almost transparent focused line of sound or a bright green stream of acid and you've got me sold.

Simple mechanics, not too expensive for a repeat use item and something I'd definitely consider dropping into a campaign. This is certainly in my top 10, maybe even top 5 ... I've got 15 more to look over before I'll know for sure. :-)

:-j(enni)


Matrissa the Enchantress wrote:
Simple mechanics, not too expensive for a repeat use item and something I'd definitely consider dropping into a campaign. This is certainly in my top 10, maybe even top 5 ...

Well, it didn't quite make my top five favourites, but it is, as I expected, in my top 10. Very nice indeed Joseph and I am certainly looking forward to seeing your country submission.

:-j(enni)


Erik Mona wrote:

Again, the judges do not have superhuman knowledge of every item ever invented for D&D ever.

Sorry! :)

IMO, the judges of ANYTHING should be able to tell if a submission is VERY similar to anything ALREADY published, but that's not the point, as mistakes happen. The point is that, even if it escaped your (by your I mean all the judges, I'm not picking on anyone) attention, once someone pointed it out, you should DO something about it.

I lost. I'm mature enough to except that and move on. I'm not being a sore loser, I just hate to know that a person who DID win won with an item that is SO similar to another that is already published, intentionally or not. The designer claims that he didn't have MIC at the time. That's fine. He may not have, but the fact remains the same that he came up with an idea that was almost EXACTLY like another.


Oh please. You say you're mature enough to move on, and then you point the finger at someone who has a good idea and say "you're immature?". The point of Round One is the price of entry. The next round is going to cut the advance by half. And so on. Joe's got a good item, can we all please get over it and get back to watching for the next thing?


varianor wrote:
Oh please. You say you're mature enough to move on, and then 1) you point the finger at someone who has a good idea and say "you're immature?". The point of Round One is the price of entry. The next round is going to cut the advance by half. And so on. 2) Joe's got a good item, can we all please get over it and get back to watching for the next thing?

1) Hmm...I've read and re-read my post, and I can't seem to find the part where I did that.

2) I beg to differ. It would be a great item if it was completely original. The contestant already said he didn't know that the Quiver of Energy (the orginal item) existed when he made the Elemental Quiver. Assuming that he's telling the truth (which I am), he made a mistake. No biggie. But he shouldn't be recognized for something that wasn't original.


holylink718 wrote:
1) Hmm...I've read and re-read my post, and I can't seem to find the part where I did that.

Technically no, you never came out and said it. However you directly imply it and you know it. Please. We're all smart enough here to read between the lines. (And no, you haven't "won" because I'm not responding on point #2. I'm just not continuing the argument.)

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Holylink, I've noted your objection. The item was submitted in good faith and the execution is different than the existing item. Joseph has already advanced to the next round, and that is not changing.

I suggest you review the country entries of all contestants and comment on the threads. If others agree with you, you'll be able to influence the public vote.

The judges did their best to isolate 32 cool items. We'll continue to guide the process, but the fates of all the finalists are now in the hands of the voting public.

Dark Archive Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4

holylink718 wrote:

But he shouldn't be recognized for something that wasn't original.

I'm going to hate myself for doing this, but . . .

You do realize that this item IS completely original, right?

It transforms the entire arrow into a bolt of raw energy - meaning that sonic bolts from an Elemental Quiver of Air stop existing if they hit a zone of magical silence, but can blow through hardness and shatter open doors.

This item does NOT add a d6 of energy damage. It does something else. Something original.

Just saying.


Okay, i am going to do this as a public service announcement.

If someone else wins something you lost, continuing to harp on an objection you've already made looks like sour grapes. This is the same situation as the *appearance* of judical impropriety. Even if you just feel really strongly your original point is right, it makes you *look* like a sore loser.

So after you mention an objection once, have judes rebuff it, it's time to let it go. Other wise the only thing you accomplish is damaging your preputation. That's it. No good *can* come of further debate from you, because you *look* bad, even if your heart is pure.

On a related, but less directed note,

These are three bad@$$ judges. They have a history in gaming that dates back a long time covering a lot of companies, and clearly come from three very different styles of DnD gaming. The idea that a fan, any fan, (including me), could beleive our judgement is better than the judges is just silly. It's also insulting and counter-productive.

This contest is for finding a person *Paizo* thinks is a superstar. Clearly the people they put through are the people they are looking for. Our opinions are moot at this stage, intentionally. We can't tell them what they are looking for -- it would be like arguing about what flavor ice cream *they* like. Our input isn't needed until later.

If you think they're wrong about what is a great item, I agree you should say so. But suggesting they should actually do what you beleive is a different matter, and it's just silly. If you want final say, feel free to run your own contest. heck, if you promised to pay the final winner 10 cents/word (a fortune by rpg standards as I understand) you might well get 850 entries for the low-low cosdt of $20. So it's an option if you care that much.

Hmmmm.... 850 magic items for $20. Suddenly, that doesn't sound like bad idea...

Dark Archive Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4

Dungeon Grrrl wrote:


Hmmmm.... 850 magic items for $20. Suddenly, that doesn't sound like bad idea...

I'll submit to your contest - these are, so far, a lot of fun!


varianor wrote:
holylink718 wrote:
1) Hmm...I've read and re-read my post, and I can't seem to find the part where I did that.
Technically no, you never came out and said it. However you directly imply it and you know it. Please. We're all smart enough here to read between the lines. (And no, you haven't "won" because I'm not responding on point #2. I'm just not continuing the argument.)

I'll never understand the human tendency to tell others that "you know what they were thinking" because, quite frankly, you don't. I was by NO means saying, suggesting, implying, or thinking what you told me I was. I shall keep my opinion to myself in the future. No hard feelings, I'm just tired of being called a "sour grape" or whatnot just because I disagree with the judges.

Good day to you all.


holylink718 wrote:
varianor wrote:
holylink718 wrote:
1) Hmm...I've read and re-read my post, and I can't seem to find the part where I did that.
Technically no, you never came out and said it. However you directly imply it and you know it. Please. We're all smart enough here to read between the lines. (And no, you haven't "won" because I'm not responding on point #2. I'm just not continuing the argument.)

I'll never understand the human tendency to tell others that "you know what they were thinking" because, quite frankly, you don't. I was by NO means saying, suggesting, implying, or thinking what you told me I was. I shall keep my opinion to myself in the future. No hard feelings, I'm just tired of being called a "sour grape" or whatnot just because I disagree with the judges.

Good day to you all.

I'm the one that started the hit parade against this item, and I've kind of passively watched this discussion go on. My fundamental problem with this submission is the contest rules stated "original." I personally defined "original" apparently far more narrowly than the judges. I define "original" as

"2. new; fresh; inventive; novel: an original way of advertising.
3. arising or proceeding independently of anything else: an original view of history."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/original

I know there is the "it replaces not adds damage" rejoinder, but IMHO that is sophistry. It would be like someone submitting a "Heward's Handy Dufflebag" or a "baseball cap of intellect"...an item that is slightly different but clearly been done before.

I think in the future the judges should clearly define what "original" means. Does "original" mean "it hasn't appeared in print." Does it mean "It hasn't been printed by WotC before?" Does it only mean "Its not in the SRD." If it is "not in the SRD", that means a lot of people might have done things differently.


Would this item turn sneak attack damage into energy damage?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

blope wrote:
Would this item turn sneak attack damage into energy damage?

Being that I've not seen the damage type for sneak attack stated directing, it has always seemed to be implied to be the same type as what is causing the damage. If it is a piercing weapon then the SA damage is piercing, or slashing if the weapon is slashing. If the damage is elemental then I'd argue that the sneak attack damage is elemental as well; remember the SA damage would still only apply if the creature attacked is subject to critical hits and sneak attack damage.

That would be my DM ruling using SRD information.

Dark Archive Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4

Yep, I hate myself for doing this. Just like I frigging KNEW that I would.

Anyway:

bcgambrell wrote:

I know there is the "it replaces not adds damage" rejoinder, but IMHO that is sophistry. It would be like someone submitting a "Heward's Handy Dufflebag" or a "baseball cap of intellect"...an item that is slightly different but clearly been done before.

You are, in this instance, incorrect - this item is, despite your objections, not something that has been done before.

This item is, in point of fact, not at all similar to your examples - to compare, it is the difference between an item that gives an arrow the Corrosive property (+1d6 acid damage) vs. an item that transforms the bolt into something unique, akin in many ways to the effect of Melf's Acid Arrow.

Yes, it does seem suprising that no one has thought of it before. Especially considering how cool it is. But, in defense of the author, no one else thought of it.

Dark Archive Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4

Joseph Yerger wrote:
That would be my DM ruling using SRD information.

And you would be 100% correct - according to pg. 86 of the "Complete Arcane" (non-SRD, of course), under the topic of Sneak Attack for Weapon-Like Spells, the damage type is not changed.

Congrats on such a wonderful and unique item, and I am excited to see your entry for the next round of the competition.

- Boom,
saving up for his Air Element Quiver right now.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

thatboomerkid wrote:
Joseph Yerger wrote:
That would be my DM ruling using SRD information.

And you would be 100% correct - according to pg. 86 of the "Complete Arcane" (non-SRD, of course), under the topic of Sneak Attack for Weapon-Like Spells, the damage type is not changed.

Congrats on such a wonderful and unique item, and I am excited to see your entry for the next round of the competition.

- Boom,
saving up for his Air Element Quiver right now.

Thank you, as I look forward to yours. If I used many demons in my games, I'd surely use than many more, thanks to your Crown.


The thing that concerns me about the item being possibly broken is that it is a license to bypass just about any and all DR. Very few (if any) monsters have sonic resistance, and elemental damage is not stopped by DR. So by posessing Elemental (air) quiver, a fairly low level archer can bypass just about any DR. I am reluctant to allow my party artificer to craft this relatively low cost item and give it to the 11th level ranger (with archery combat style) for this very reason.

Are my fears unfounded? My party is about halfway thru the age of worms, and the artificer, while not quite breaking the game, is making things a whole lot easier on the PC's than I anticipated. I can forsee a lot of problems if this were given to an archer, particularly a high level one. A 5000 gp item that has the potential to negate any DR seems a little too powerful to me.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8

Charles Grybosky wrote:

The thing that concerns me about the item being possibly broken is that it is a license to bypass just about any and all DR. Very few (if any) monsters have sonic resistance, and elemental damage is not stopped by DR. So by posessing Elemental (air) quiver, a fairly low level archer can bypass just about any DR. I am reluctant to allow my party artificer to craft this relatively low cost item and give it to the 11th level ranger (with archery combat style) for this very reason.

Are my fears unfounded? My party is about halfway thru the age of worms, and the artificer, while not quite breaking the game, is making things a whole lot easier on the PC's than I anticipated. I can forsee a lot of problems if this were given to an archer, particularly a high level one. A 5000 gp item that has the potential to negate any DR seems a little too powerful to me.

The thought had occurred to me is design but the check I had understood was that it was still limited to the bows damage. Typically 1d8+5 with a composite longbow. The intent was to bypass the DR but still only do a relatively small amount of damage (slightly more than if damage just exceeded DR).

I've not seen many things to boost damage potential for archers and I saw this as being not so much a damage booster but a way to make the damage more effective. Also, it would be an item that is just "Wow" to have as a low level archer, but you would still want to use it at higher levels and not just trade it in for something bigger and better.

"Me and this Artoo unit go way back."

The Sonic one has the most potential for abuse, but it is SONIC. When is sonic quiet?

Dark Archive

Joseph Yerger wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
In the SRD it's Efficient Quiver. It's still there.

I apologize, I can be blind on occasion.

Thank you all for both criticism, critique and praise. It is appreciated, and now back to work on my country.

I have a question dose the efficient quiver ever run out of arrow and so forth?

Dark Archive

Joseph Yerger wrote:
Charles Grybosky wrote:

The thing that concerns me about the item being possibly broken is that it is a license to bypass just about any and all DR. Very few (if any) monsters have sonic resistance, and elemental damage is not stopped by DR. So by posessing Elemental (air) quiver, a fairly low level archer can bypass just about any DR. I am reluctant to allow my party artificer to craft this relatively low cost item and give it to the 11th level ranger (with archery combat style) for this very reason.

Are my fears unfounded? My party is about halfway thru the age of worms, and the artificer, while not quite breaking the game, is making things a whole lot easier on the PC's than I anticipated. I can forsee a lot of problems if this were given to an archer, particularly a high level one. A 5000 gp item that has the potential to negate any DR seems a little too powerful to me.

The thought had occurred to me is design but the check I had understood was that it was still limited to the bows damage. Typically 1d8+5 with a composite longbow. The intent was to bypass the DR but still only do a relatively small amount of damage (slightly more than if damage just exceeded DR).

I've not seen many things to boost damage potential for archers and I saw this as being not so much a damage booster but a way to make the damage more effective. Also, it would be an item that is just "Wow" to have as a low level archer, but you would still want to use it at higher levels and not just trade it in for something bigger and better.

"Me and this Artoo unit go way back."

The Sonic one has the most potential for abuse, but it is SONIC. When is sonic quiet?

Joe dose the quiver ever run out or dose it just keeps making arrow. That what Im hopeing?

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