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Given that calculating magic item prices is a bit of a black art once you step away from the simplest items, and given that any item that is little more than just "use spell X up to N times per day" is going to fall foul of originality and/or creativity criteria... if the item cost is calculated incorrectly (in some sense) will the entry be automatically rejected, or can we get away with estimating prices (as close to the rules as possible) by judging which similar items it is more/less powerful than?
Also, given the vast number of supplements that have been published (even just official WotC ones) it's quite likely that we'll create things very similar to items published in supplements we've never even seen. How much "due dilligence", beyond what's in the SRD, is expected in order to avoid being rejected for lack of originality for this reason? Realistically, each of the three judges will have read many more supplements than everyone in my gaming group put together, it would be very easy for there to be an apparent lack of originality.
In some regards both of the above are exacerbated by the "only one entry per person" rule, essentially we get one shot with no feedback before the result is determined. Is it acceptable to post entries online before submitting them in order to get initial feedback on the types of thing mentioned above (and others)?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Given that calculating magic item prices is a bit of a black art once you step away from the simplest items, and given that any item that is little more than just "use spell X up to N times per day" is going to fall foul of originality and/or creativity criteria... if the item cost is calculated incorrectly (in some sense) will the entry be automatically rejected, or can we get away with estimating prices (as close to the rules as possible) by judging which similar items it is more/less powerful than?
I'd say it will be rejected only if the judges think the pricing is way off. As you say, there is a bit of a black art above it, and RPG Superstar is searching for the next great black artist.
Also, given the vast number of supplements that have been published (even just official WotC ones) it's quite likely that we'll create things very similar to items published in supplements we've never even seen. How much "due dilligence", beyond what's in the SRD, is expected in order to avoid being rejected for lack of originality for this reason? Realistically, each of the three judges will have read many more supplements than everyone in my gaming group put together, it would be very easy for there to be an apparent lack of originality.
If the three judges think the item is too similar to one they know about, it might doom you, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Keep in mind, though, that if the item makes it past the judges it then has to "fool" all of the voting public. My guess is that if you shoot for originality, you're probably making the best choice.
In some regards both of the above are exacerbated by the "only one entry per person" rule, essentially we get one shot with no feedback before the result is determined. Is it acceptable to post entries online before submitting them in order to get initial feedback on the types of thing mentioned above (and others)?
You are right. You have one shot to impress the judges, so I suggest designing something impressive.
It is not acceptable to post entries for feeback here on Paizo.com, but you can put it on your website or whatever. The idea is to submit something that hasn't been published before, not necessarily something that no one on Earth has ever seen.
--Erik
Given that calculating magic item prices is a bit of a black art once you step away from the simplest items, and given that any item that is little more than just "use spell X up to N times per day" is going to fall foul of originality and/or creativity criteria... if the item cost is calculated incorrectly (in some sense) will the entry be automatically rejected, or can we get away with estimating prices (as close to the rules as possible) by judging which similar items it is more/less powerful than?I'd say it will be rejected only if the judges think the pricing is way off. As you say, there is a bit of a black art above it, and RPG Superstar is searching for the next great black artist.
Eric, given your answer above, should we "show our work" so to speak on the pricing? (I seem to remember the old rules for Dungeon manuscripts wanted us to show the calculations on the statblocks, etc)
ie. +5 competence bonus to Hide = 2500gp
Or in the case of something similiar... there is only 1 magic item in the SRD that is similiar to my favorite idea so far, so I was using that as a base for pricing. Given that it isn't a common item/ability, should I name the item I used for the price comparison? Or is it assumed that given the D&D experience between you, Wolfgang and Clark, I don't need to draw attention to the comparison for the pricing model?
Is something to do with the Far Realm ok? or isn't the Far Realm OGL. Perhaps a different name.
Is something to do with the Far Realm ok? or isn't the Far Realm OGL. Perhaps a different name.
I think if you don't call it the Far Realm, but just refer to it in general Lovecraftian/Cthulhu terms, it would be ok. That being said, I'm merely assuming the Far Realm is WotC IP, since it has appeared in Dragon, Dungeon and some books, but it could be fair game since its based on other sources itself.
I'm looking at possibly using Hebrew characters for the description of my item. Not spelling them out persay just saying something like "there's Hebrew Characters engraved" or somesuch. So I guess my question is, what's the fantastic equivalent of Hebrew?
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I'm looking at possibly using Hebrew characters for the description of my item. Not spelling them out persay just saying something like "there's Hebrew Characters engraved" or somesuch. So I guess my question is, what's the fantastic equivalent of Hebrew?
I'd default to either saying something like "ruinic", "runes", or "sinewy script" however if you're looking for an established fantasy language, I'd say aim for the elvish script, as they look similar.
I hope that helps.
Given that calculating magic item prices is a bit of a black art once you step away from the simplest items, and given that any item that is little more than just "use spell X up to N times per day" is going to fall foul of originality and/or creativity criteria... if the item cost is calculated incorrectly (in some sense) will the entry be automatically rejected, or can we get away with estimating prices (as close to the rules as possible) by judging which similar items it is more/less powerful than?I'd say it will be rejected only if the judges think the pricing is way off. As you say, there is a bit of a black art above it, and RPG Superstar is searching for the next great black artist.
Any tips on how one would go about calculating the price and figuring out the CL level?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
aka flash_cxxi
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Any tips on how one would go about calculating the price and figuring out the CL level?
I don't know how everyone else did this, but I just found 2 items that did similar stuff to what my item does and add their costs together. My item does other stuff as well, but also has a drawback, so I figure it evens out. It may be slightly overcosted, but hopfully not too far outside the realms of disqualification.
As for CL, I found the CL for the highest item that was similar and then added 2 levels (because of the extra stuff).
I'd default to either saying something like "ruinic", "runes", or "sinewy script" however if you're looking for an established fantasy language, I'd say aim for the elvish script, as they look similar.I hope that helps.
Thanks. That does. And thanks for the Eberron Gnomish thing Zootcat but I think I'm trying for just a little more generic.
To assist the OP and anyone else that is unsure about how to price their item, I've found the CREATING MAGIC ITEMS section of the online d20srd to be a great help in pricing. I'm sure there is room for argument, but I think you can establish a good baseline price.
To assist the OP and anyone else that is unsure about how to price their item, I've found the CREATING MAGIC ITEMS section of the online d20srd to be a great help in pricing. I'm sure there is room for argument, but I think you can establish a good baseline price.
Thank you!!!
And flash thank you as well. :)
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 8
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To assist the OP and anyone else that is unsure about how to price their item, I've found the CREATING MAGIC ITEMS section of the online d20srd to be a great help in pricing. I'm sure there is room for argument, but I think you can establish a good baseline price.
Are we reading the same table? Using those formulae it is practically impossible to determine the cost of anything that doesn't duplicate a spell effect, or grant a skill/save/AC bonus. For example, can you use those formulae to explain the pricing of the decanter of endless water?
An on command item that 'duplicates' the spell control water at CL 9 should cost 4 * 9 * 1,800gp, or 64,800gp, yet the decanter only costs 9,000gp.
For example, can you use those formulae to explain the pricing of the decanter of endless water?
An on command item that 'duplicates' the spell control water at CL 9 should cost 4 * 9 * 1,800gp, or 64,800gp, yet the decanter only costs 9,000gp.
I don't think you're calculations are quite correct.
In this case, you choose the control water spell, which varies in level, based on who is casting it. 4 for druids and clerics, 6 for sorcerers and wizards. Personally, I would choose the spell create water, which is a 0 level spell, automatically halving the cost, but according to the d20srd it's control watter.
It is important when using this chart that you multiply by spell level not caster level.Also, I would use the caveat on items with continual effects:
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, . If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
With that in mind, I see the calculation as
4(DRD or CLR spell) * 2000(cost for a continuous item)* 1.5 (for being a spell 10min/level) = 12000 gpOR
6(SRC or Wiz spell) * 2000(cost for a continuous item)* 1.5 (for being a spell 10min/level)= 18000 gp
If you get really nit picky about the item effect truly being continual, as in you can open the decanter and have it work 24/7, then divide the total again by 2 and you would get 6000 and 9000 gp, the second of which is the listed item cost.
Alternately, you could not use the duration caveat and just do:
4(DRD or CLR spell)* 1800(cost for command word item)= 7200 gp
OR
6(SRC or Wiz spell)* 1800(cost for command word item)= 10,800 gp
Both of which are very close to the listed price and would probably be considered close enough.
I guess this really does emphasize the "Black Art" comment of the OP.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 8
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It is important when using this chart that you multiply by spell level not caster level.Also, I would use the caveat on items with continual effects:
The chart states you multiply both by caster level and by spell level. The decanter is also explicitly a command activated item, not a use activated item.
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, . If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
Since the decanter is a command activated item, you must ignore this text. Since the rest of your post pretty much hinges on using these price reductions, it kind of falls apart.
With that in mind, I see the calculation as
4(DRD or CLR spell) * 2000(cost for a continuous item)* 1.5 (for being a spell 10min/level) = 12000 gpOR
6(SRC or Wiz spell) * 2000(cost for a continuous item)* 1.5 (for being a spell 10min/level)= 18000 gp
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
So you use the 4th level version of control water.
What I think it indicates is the complete lack of ability for the magic item pricing rules to handle any magic item that doesn't fall into a few neat categories. This is one of my major irritations with D&D 3.x: they make it seem like everything has some kind of numerical rationale behind it, but when you peel back a layer or two you find that most things are just made up out of whole cloth.
The chart states you multiply both by caster level and by spell level. The decanter is also explicitly a command activated item, not a use activated item.
This is true for all items except wondrous items. For those you use the subtable Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price ValuesAccording to that table, you only use level of spell, not caster lvl * spell lvl.
The command word vs. continuous effect is debatable at best. but since the values are within a few thousand gold pieces, I don't think its extreme enough to call one right over the other.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 8
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This is true for all items except wondrous items. For those you use the subtable Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price ValuesAccording to that table, you only use level of spell, not caster lvl * spell lvl.
I'm looking at that table right now. The example for the cape of the mountebank (a wondrous item) states it is spell level * caster level * 1,800gp.
BTW following that formula and dividing by five because it is a once per day item, and multiplying by 1.5 because a cape is an uncustomary body slot for a movement item gives a price of 19,440gp, not 10,080gp as listed for the item. So unless I am missing something even their example item doesn't follow their own rules.
The command word vs. continuous effect is debatable at best. but since the values are within a few thousand gold pieces, I don't think its extreme enough to call one right over the other.
I don't see how it is debatable. The decanter says it functions on command, thus making it a command activated item.
Personally, I'm going to just eyeball it. "What is the earliest level that players should be getting this at?" and then putting the price around that of items they usually have to work as much to make.
The calculation doesn't take into consideration "how broken is it".
Like, a Hand of the Mage is fairly cheap to me, casting Mage Hand at will for 1000gp... Same thing for Ring of Sustenance. 2100 bucks? Steal. Those two items are always the first out of my workshop.
From a balance perspective they're weak items, and are priced below their calculation as a result.
I'm looking at that table right now. The example for the cape of the mountebank (a wondrous item) states it is spell level * caster level * 1,800gp.
WOW! Time for me to get my eyes checked.
BTW following that formula and dividing by five because it is a once per day item, and multiplying by 1.5 because a cape is an uncustomary body slot for a movement item gives a price of 19,440gp, not 10,080gp as listed for the item. So unless I am missing something even their example item doesn't follow their own rules.
Oddly the math follows exactly, minus the last x 1.5 for being non-affinity.
4 (level of spell) * 7 (CL for Wizard) * 1800/ 5(once per day)=10,080
I don't see how it is debatable. The decanter says it functions on command, thus making it a command activated item.
From the description:
If the stopper is removed from this ordinary-looking flask and a command word spoken, an amount of fresh or salt water pours out.
Just speaking the command word is not enough. I would call removing the stopper a use-activation. Also, the effect of water pouring out is continuous until the command word is spoken to stop this. Unlike the cape of mountebank's dimension door, which is an instantaneous effect.
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Hmmm, I’m having a bit of trouble with pricing too. If I do things by the numbers (which involves a bit of guess work, since my item doesn’t quite emulate a spell effect), I get a cost of about 12 grand. But if I scan the item entries and look at things which (IMO) have a similar level of ‘power’ and ‘usefulness’ (as well as creation caster level), I’m looking at more like the 4000 – 6000 range.
12000 seems too high to me, so I’m tending towards ignoring the math and eyeballing the price … only I’m concerned the judges will look a the numbers and go “this guy does not understand the pricing tables.”
What to do? Comments from the gallery?
I think Erik nailed it:
"I'd say it will be rejected only if the judges think the pricing is way off. As you say, there is a bit of a black art above it, and RPG Superstar is searching for the next great black artist."
There is some art to pricing. But believe me, we are debating the price of items in our analysis of deciding to keep or reject submissions. Price is required (We unanimously rejected one because it didnt contain any price). So you have to set a price. That is a design decision you are making as part of your submission. And we are evaluating how you do it. This contest is for game design--that includes all the mechanics, the writing, the idea, following instructions, the editing, getting all the little things right as well as presenting a cool and compelling idea.
Like Erik said, we are looking for the next great black artist. :)
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I think Erik nailed it:
"I'd say it will be rejected only if the judges think the pricing is way off. As you say, there is a bit of a black art above it, and RPG Superstar is searching for the next great black artist."
There is some art to pricing. But believe me, we are debating the price of items in our analysis of deciding to keep or reject submissions. Price is required (We unanimously rejected one because it didnt contain any price). So you have to set a price. That is a design decision you are making as part of your submission. And we are evaluating how you do it. This contest is for game design--that includes all the mechanics, the writing, the idea, following instructions, the editing, getting all the little things right as well as presenting a cool and compelling idea.
Like Erik said, we are looking for the next great black artist. :)
Thanks Clark, and good answer.
Since posting the question, I've had to revise the function of my item somewhat due to word-count issues - and with the revised function the pricing is actually working out a lot better too! Now, let's hope it's still cool...
Eric, given your answer above, should we "show our work" so to speak on the pricing? (I seem to remember the old rules for Dungeon manuscripts wanted us to show the calculations on the statblocks, etc)
ie. +5 competence bonus to Hide = 2500gp
Or in the case of something similiar... there is only 1 magic item in the SRD that is similiar to my favorite idea so far, so I was using that as a base for pricing. Given that it isn't a common item/ability, should I name the item I used for the price comparison? Or is it assumed that given the D&D experience between you, Wolfgang and Clark, I don't need to draw attention to the comparison for the pricing model?
I couldn't find an answer to this question from Talion09, and would like to know if this would be a good or a bad idea.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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i think it would be useful to know for sure whether we ought to include the math for our pricing, and whether that would be included in the 200 word maximum (i assume it would).
some might feel the need to explain their pricing scheme, since wondrous items are the hardest to maintain or balance. some might see a use of their item that changes perceptions.
for me, the only idea is that of course i wouldn't want the judges to think i meant for the formula to be included in the item description.
i get the feeling reading the posts of the judges that some of us might be working too hard to satisfy this one requirement and that we should focus on a great, unique item and breathe a little easier. after all, nothing paizo uses from this contest would get published without a little playtesting or tweaking.
my wife says she expects a new magic item deck to hit stores this summer! hehe.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
aka Eyebite
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Like Erik said, we are looking for the next great black artist. :)
Oh, so it has to be a "black" artist huh? It can't just be an artist...no no no, you have to go and slap a label on it.
What do you have against white artists?
I can't stand this rampant game design racism.
:)
...
Since posting the question, I've had to revise the function of my item somewhat due to word-count issues - and with the revised function the pricing is actually working out a lot better too! Now, let's hope it's still cool...
Oh it is still cool! I think it is incredibly cool!! especially the piece where you
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Oh it is still cool! I think it is incredibly cool!! especially the piece where you ** spoiler omitted **...
Since posting the question, I've had to revise the function of my item somewhat due to word-count issues - and with the revised function the pricing is actually working out a lot better too! Now, let's hope it's still cool...
Oh you!
I think ancient sensei needs an Iron DM tag.
I think you're right!
*makes an offering to the Great Eye*
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
aka Fatespinner
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I submitted mine, but now I'm wondering if there's a problem. The rules specifically say to 'follow the format given in the SRD.' The SRD doesn't really include any "flavor" per se on the items, so my submission was pretty much just the facts.
Is that going to kill my chances of getting picked by the judges? I realize (too late) that it probably won't help me in the popular vote...
I submitted mine, but now I'm wondering if there's a problem. The rules specifically say to 'follow the format given in the SRD.' The SRD doesn't really include any "flavor" per se on the items, so my submission was pretty much just the facts.
Is that going to kill my chances of getting picked by the judges? I realize (too late) that it probably won't help me in the popular vote...
I remember a post by one of the judges saying that a bare bones submisson rocked their world. Given that the public will not vote on the first 32 contestants, as they are picked by the judges you don't have to worry. On the other hand, I had 140 words and about half that was (universal) flavor.
Contributor
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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The first wondrous item entry in the SRD:
This amulet is a golden disk on a chain. It usually bears the image of a lion or other powerful animal. The amulet grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Constitution of +2, +4, or +6.
2 sentences of fluff, 1 sentence of crunch.
The second entry:
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
No fluff at all. 1 sentence of crunch.
The third entry:
This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.
1 sentence of fluff and crunch knit together.
Conclusion: Three similar items have three distinct ways of dealing with the fluff or no fluff issue. I prefer the third approach, but that's just me.
The first wondrous item entry in the SRD:
This amulet is a golden disk on a chain. It usually bears the image of a lion or other powerful animal. The amulet grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Constitution of +2, +4, or +6.
2 sentences of fluff, 1 sentence of crunch.
The second entry:
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
No fluff at all. 1 sentence of crunch.
The third entry:
This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.
1 sentence of fluff and crunch knit together.
Conclusion: Three similar items have three distinct ways of dealing with the fluff or no fluff issue. I prefer the third approach, but that's just me.
I'm not sure I consider any of these examples fluff. Basic item appearances are listed for almost ever wondrous item in the SRD and are more of a description. I consider history and non-unique ability descriptions fluff.
Some wondrous items list a Caster Level of 1st or 2nd (based on the spell requirement) even though the Craft Wondrous Item feat has Caster Level 3rd as a prerequisite; is this legitimate?
Only the caster creating the item has to be 3rd level. They could theoretically hire a lower level caster to cast the spell for them, or cast the spell at a lower caster level themselves:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
I know this is a bit after the fact for you but I hope it helps in the long run!
My item was annoying to figure out using the srd chart, and in all honesty now that I have submitted it I cant quite remember how I go the price I did...*sigh* but a CL8 item turned out to have a cost to create of 2850gp.
Did anyone bother answering whether doing the math and calculating costs was necessary? A 200-word limit is pretty tight, and frankly, number crunching would only prove that you knew how to work a calculator; I would think that creativity and originality would be the first hurdle to clear in a contest like this.
Based on previous responses, yes, calculating costs is necessary. It's rarely straight number crunching (How would you price an item that could only be used once per day per person? Something that allowed you to cast magic missile at will, but only against spellcasters?) and there's a definite art to it.
If the choice is creativity and originality, or an ability to work to deadline and follow directions, I suspect Paizo would prefer the latter. Actually, they'd probably pay the first person $25 for the idea, and give it to the second to actually develop and write. There's a lot more great ideas floating around than there are great writers.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Did anyone bother answering whether doing the math and calculating costs was necessary? A 200-word limit is pretty tight, and frankly, number crunching would only prove that you knew how to work a calculator; I would think that creativity and originality would be the first hurdle to clear in a contest like this. I'm going to take a chance and just toss my entry in there. Some people still prefer to play old editions, you know!
DOING the math is necessary, because if you have something priced badly, your entry will not be selected. SHOWING the math is not part of the requirement, but it might help prove you know what you're doing. However, those words will count against the limit. Personally, if I had a short entry, I'd probably show my math, and if I had a long entry, I'd just be really really sure that I've priced it correctly.
CRAP! After reading all the posts here, I re-examined the math on my submission's costs, and realized I priced it badly, not having checked and rechecked my math thoroughly enough, I guess.
I don't suppose there's any way of editing, or resubmitting a post if you hit send prematurely? I'd HATE to have my idea rejected simply because I failed to carry a decimal, or a simple typo.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I don't suppose there's any way of editing, or resubmitting a post if you hit send prematurely? I'd HATE to have my idea rejected simply because I failed to carry a decimal, or a simple typo.
Sorry. Assuming either of those problems is enough to make the judges pass you over, well, hopefully there will be a next time...
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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hehe..ancientsensei needs an iron dm web site! that way i can refer people to the hottest event at gencon!
that tournament shouldn't just be at gencon. it should be everywhere. nothing else is close to as much fun.
nothing about gaming anyway. you'd have to include quality time with my wife (or jennifer love hewitt), or a scathing OU victory over oregon in the bcs championship game to get better.
how do i get this iron dm tag?
how do i get this iron dm tag?
Make a sacrifice to the Great Eye or other suitably appropriate Paizo staff member.*
*
Offerings are not guaranteed to work. Offerings only valid where they are not restricted by law, any soul-binding contracts or deals are the sole responsibility of the applicant and Paizo will not be held responsible for the status or location of your immortal soul.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Oh Great and Powerful Eye:
Whereas the fans have selected me as Iron Dungeon Master amid ruthless and formidable competition, and whereas I have vowed to use my power for lawful purposes rather than chaotic (can't make that promise for good over evil), I beseech you, grant me (and Dreads if he hangs out here) an Iron Dungeon Master tag.
By way of honoring you, if I am granted this tag, I will vow to make at least one Great Eye prominent in one or more of my Superstar submissions. I do not portend instant victory, Oh Great and Powerful Eye, but with your blessing I will woo fans and industry giants...
...and players across the world will fear you and pay homage.
Basic item appearances are listed for almost ever wondrous item in the SRD and are more of a description. I consider history and non-unique ability descriptions fluff.
Seconded. It's tying them down to a realm or place or specific individual that eats up verbiage. I think in D&D parlance it starts to move them toward "artifact" and away from "magic item". The exception? Murlynd's spoon. Though what's wondrous about daily gruel is still a fun philosophy question!