Can someone clarify this for me?
I was discussing with a friend the new way Dragon is being presented to us.
I made a comment saying that they are giving us so many preview articles that when issue #360 is finally available to download we will have read it already.
My friend tells me that there is no PDF that will be available later. The articles that pop up ocasionally that I have been reading is it. This is what Dragon Magazine is now.
I told him that is not right. It cant be.
If you go the the Dragon section of the Wizards Website it still says "Check out what’s coming in Dragon — our first digital issue! Issue #360 hits this month"
So it still says its coming, not that it is here.
Also it brags that there is a cover for #350 done by Marc Sasso. They cant possible say that the little picture on the page is the magazine cover can they? Thats stupid. There has to be a downloadable magazine that has a real cover.
Another thing is that they are using the traditional numbering system saying that the next issue is #350 picking up right where Paizo magazines were canceled.
If you leak an article or two every week or so thats not a magazine. Why give something issue numbers and a cover if its just web articles that arent relaesed all at once?
Im still convinced that a complete magazine PDF will be released and what we are getting now are just preview articles.
Can someone clarify for me?
According to Chris Thomasson's editorial in Dungeon:
Issues in the Coming Months
In the intervening months between now and the release of 4th Edition, we're going to be collecting our issues a little differently from you've come to expect.At the beginning of November, we'll be releasing a pdf version of Dragon #360 and Dungeon #151. Future issues will be collected into a single issue every two months until the release of 4th Edition. So you'll see a collected issue at the beginning of January, 2008 (Dragon #361 and Dungeon #152), the beginning of March (Dragon #362 and Dungeon #153), and the beginning of May (Dragon #363 and Dungeon #154).
Dragon #364 and Dungeon #155 are currently scheduled to be our first all 4th Edition issues, with new layouts, more content, and all fully integrated with the new D&D Insider toolset. After those first 4th Edition issues, we'll resume a monthly schedule for both magazines.
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According to Chris Thomasson's editorial in Dungeon:
Issues in the Coming Months
In the intervening months between now and the release of 4th Edition, we're going to be collecting our issues a little differently from you've come to expect.At the beginning of November, we'll be releasing a pdf version of Dragon #360 and Dungeon #151. Future issues will be collected into a single issue every two months until the release of 4th Edition. So you'll see a collected issue at the beginning of January, 2008 (Dragon #361 and Dungeon #152), the beginning of March (Dragon #362 and Dungeon #153), and the beginning of May (Dragon #363 and Dungeon #154).
Dragon #364 and Dungeon #155 are currently scheduled to be our first all 4th Edition issues, with new layouts, more content, and all fully integrated with the new D&D Insider toolset. After those first 4th Edition issues, we'll resume a monthly schedule for both magazines.
Dragon and Dungeon are now pretty much dead to me (R.I.P)
Looked at what passed as Dragon- it was like watching the corpse of a beloved pet being used as a hand puppet.
Dissapointed, angry, but not surprised- it's the final response that lets me know that it is not just over, but that I'll not be supporting WotC anytime soon.
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Dragon and Dungeon are now pretty much dead to me (R.I.P)
I must admit I prefer a magazine I have to pay for to a PDF that I get for free.
However, Dungeon and Dragon won't be dead to me until 4th edition comes out and they start charging for the online content. Even then they could end up producing stuff I'm willing to subscribe to; stranger things have happened.
Can someone clarify this for me? I was discussing with a friend the new way Dragon is being presented to us. I made a comment saying that they are giving us so many preview articles that when issue #360 is finally available to download we will have read it already.
Back on April 24, 2007, I wrote a half-dozen paper letters to "key" WoTC personnel as well as Hasbro and WoTC customer service.
In the letters, I urged WoTC to continue to publish Dragon and Dungeon in printed magazine format. (I even suggested they had good in-house resouces to lead such an adventure, noting Kim Mohan by name.)
Today, I received an envelope from WoTC containing the original letter that I had sent to WoTC Customer Service along with a semi-form response (they were nice enough to put my name at the top of the letter).
The letter, dated 9/25/07 whose envelope was post-marked 10/25/07 read:
Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast.
Unfortunately, Dragon and Dungeon magazine will not be made available in print. Starting in October, both Dungeon and Dragon magazines will be available online at our website as the D&D Insider. Then sometime in the spring, when all of the D&D Insider's digital components go live, we'll begin charging a monthly subscription fee to access some of our online content. We don't have final pricing details ready to share, but one subscription fee will cover all aspects of D&D Insider, including more than two print issues' worth of editorial content each month. You'll get access to the amazing set of tools D&D Insider will provide-the D&D Game Table, the D&D Character Creator, and the Dungeon Master's Toolkit, details of which will be unveiled in the coming months.
If you have any more comments or questions, please feel free to either write or call us.
Sincerely,
Customer Support
Wizards of the Coast
They clarified to me how much they want me as a regular customer.
They clarified to me how much they want me as a regular customer.
That's really bad turn around time. Someone who writes a paper letter should be given the courtesy of something other than a form response.
- Ashavan
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Back on April 24, 2007, I wrote a half-dozen paper letters to "key" WoTC personnel as well as Hasbro and WoTC customer service.
In the letters, I urged WoTC to continue to publish Dragon and Dungeon in printed magazine format. (I even suggested they had good in-house resouces to lead such an adventure, noting Kim Mohan by name.)
Today, I received an envelope from WoTC containing the original letter that I had sent to WoTC Customer Service along with a semi-form response (they were nice enough to put my name at the top of the letter).
The letter, dated 9/25/07 whose envelope was post-marked 10/25/07 read:
[snip]
They clarified to me how much they want me as a regular customer.
Does the 'semi-form' expression imply that it was just printed off a computer with your name handwritten at the top of the page? Correct?
Any signature at all on this "letter" you're talking about?
I seriously sympathize. You seem to have clearly stated, as a customer, how much you care about this issue. The answer, as a result, shouldn't have taken that long, or that particular form, to reach you.
Does the 'semi-form' expression imply that it was just printed off a computer with your name handwritten at the top of the page?
They did "word process" in my name.
Any signature at all on this "letter" you're talking about?
There was no signature at all on their response letter.
I happen to work in a customer service position (not for Wizards of the Coast). I can say what happened to you is fairly standard, if not generous. On any given day I answer about 100 emails and 10-20 snail mails, most of which ask a lot of the same questions. Even if the letter is very eloquently written, we have to follow procedure and send the proper form letter response. We just don't have time to write out a personal response to everyone, and we can't call up the central office (ie, the people who actually run the company) for every letter either.
I imagine that WotC is not as big as the company I work for, and they're in the middle of developing and launching a whole new product line, so they need all their attention focused on that. All the major decisions involved were probably made months ago, and it's very difficult for a big company to switch gears midstream. Even if they really liked your ideas, they can't do anything about it right now.
I happen to work in a customer service position (not for Wizards of the Coast). I can say what happened to you is fairly standard, if not generous. On any given day I answer about 100 emails and 10-20 snail mails, most of which ask a lot of the same questions. Even if the letter is very eloquently written, we have to follow procedure and send the proper form letter response. We just don't have time to write out a personal response to everyone, and we can't call up the central office (ie, the people who actually run the company) for every letter either.
I imagine that WotC is not as big as the company I work for, and they're in the middle of developing and launching a whole new product line, so they need all their attention focused on that. All the major decisions involved were probably made months ago, and it's very difficult for a big company to switch gears midstream. Even if they really liked your ideas, they can't do anything about it right now.
Respectfully, customer service is responding to customers promptly. The form letter itself is not the biggest problem, though for a customer who has written several handwritten letters, it's probably not appropriate, but that it took them over six months to send it is NOT a forgivable thing. If I took that long to respond to a customer concern I'd be fired.
In today's day and age, very few people write handwritten letters... WotC should learn from politicians, who take handwritten letters VERY seriously.
- Ashavan
I just take offence (for some wacky reason) that they keep calling it a "magazine". I guess I'm old but Dungeon & Dragon ain't as glorified and cool as a magazine anymore, it's just another bunch of pixels and text on some goob's website. NOT a magazine. Anymore, anyway.
I'm right there with you.
-The Gneech
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In all honesty, this new format looks identical to the free articles they used to publish online all the time. If anyone remembers before this whole DDI stuff, they had free adventures and fluff articles all the time. The quality seems to be about the same to me.
So in essence they want us to pay for the same stuff they used to give out for free.
Yes, Dragon and Dungeon are dead and no longer exist in any form. They can call their new DDI what they want but I know what they are not. They are not Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
My only consolation is that IF WOTC realizes they have a total failure on their hands someone will get the license to publish the magazines again. I hope they give it back to Paizo, but I will not hold my breath for that.
I think it's both sad and hilarious that most of the good stuff is from people who wrote for Paizo-era Dungeon and Dragon.
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In all honesty, this new format looks identical to the free articles they used to publish online all the time. If anyone remembers before this whole DDI stuff, they had free adventures and fluff articles all the time. The quality seems to be about the same to me.
Tell me about it. I've got CDs with free downloads going back to the tail end of 2E. And even the content of that stuff has deteriorated over the years.
I think what you will see is compilations of stuff that people liked making it to print.
And about the free stuff, I can see why they might want to get people to start paying something.
And while I'm apologizing for them (ick!) I have to say that they made me really happy by putting out VERY HI-RES maps from Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins. So for now, the articles are free, some of it was good, and they've won some quarter from me.
Looked at what passed as Dragon- it was like watching the corpse of a beloved pet being used as a hand puppet.
On the other hand, this is the funniest and most apt simile I've seen since this whole debacle started.
I saw it just today. It was horrible. It looked so... crude.
You'll get access to the amazing set of tools D&D Insider will provide-the D&D Game Table,the D&D Character Creator, and the Dungeon Master's Toolkit, details of which will be unveiled in the coming months.
[rant]
This is what seems to me the worst of what I'm hearing about 4E. I'm sure you've all seen folks complaining about it, but now it's my turn.I don't want to have to have a laptop in front of me to make my character or to play the game I started playing 25 years ago!
Some of my fondest memories are of sitting around a table with pen, paper, dice and a stack 'o rule books BSing and making a character for the next epic adventure. I understand that WotC is in business to make money, but they are killing an icon and a part of my life that I've come to treasure will be nothing but a shade if they have their say.
I've dug my heels in with the group that I run for and play with. There will be 4th Edition allowed.
[/rant]
Thank you, I feel better. :p
I've been reading all the 4th Edition Messageboards since the initial announcement, and I gotta say that, in spite of the lack of love for WotC in the air right now, we're not really acting like a bunch of whiny reactionaries. Every point brought up has be cogent and relevent, the depht of hurt and passions involved are real and not just a lot of fatbeard whinging. But when all is said and done, it's the harpooning of Dragon that probably did the most damage to WotCs public relations with us, the Gamer community.
A magazine has a format and can be themed in a way a website can't. The editorial staff can direct the reader- with a website, the power goes to the browser, who can easily be distracted.
I went back to my old Dragons "Countdown to Third Edition"- the excitement was palpable, the new edition was clearly outlined and explained. What we have now is second hand snippets and rumors on top of a mounting sense of dissatisfaction with the way Wizards take care of their consumers. It's like we've been shut out in favor of chasing the WoW crowd with a couple of web articles and a slipshod delivery.
And yes, the hand puppet line earlier still stands.
Yep that is what it is now. Dissappointed? I am. I hope they can do better. I would prefer a print magazine, but a better website would do. As far as costomer service and Pr at WotC, I think we are spoiled by Eric, Lisa, James and the rest of the Paizo gang.
Thanks Ahhh guys!!!
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I wonder if they are going to require the fee for their insider content to look into the old 3.0 and 3.5 archives as well when they start charging in the spring. I have gone in and pulled some of the stuff I liked over the years just in case they do. :-)
I've been doing that for a couple years now. I've got like 6 to 8 CDs worth of burned material.
...
What I really cannot believe though is that they are SELLING preview guides for 4E. Amazing!
What is amazing is that they pre sold the preview. People will buy anything with the right logo on ot.
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I may be one of very few people who appreciate what WotC is doing. I also remain an outspoken critic about the death of the magazines. But the fact is - they are gone and WotC is trying something different.
As such, I actually think it is a better idea to release the contents of the e-zine piece by piece, over the course of the month, instead of all at once. Sure, I look forward to the final collected works of Dragon 360 and Dungeon 151. But I also like not feeling overwhelmed with a slew of .pdf to read all at once. Instead, I find it much easier to set aside just five to twenty minutes at my laptop for each article as its released.
Is it as good as the magazine? No. Especially not, with regards to Dungeon. (With Dragon, I'm more indifferent.) But then again, that's why we have Paizo.
Need I say it again - the accessibility of both hard copy and .pdf for Pathfinder AND Gamemastery is just sheer genius! Perhaps that's why WotC is finally realizing that with its 4e releases, it should take this approach as well. Too bad WotC didn't see the merit of doing the same with Dragon and Dungeon.
My only consolation is that IF WOTC realizes they have a total failure on their hands someone will get the license to publish the magazines again. I hope they give it back to Paizo, but I will not hold my breath for that.
You can only burn that bridge once, I suspect. And print isn't the only place we see this trend of saying, "No!" to Hasbro: Bioware now has a policy of only working material controlled by them, despite the stellar success of the NWN series. Can't help but to think the numerous betrayals by WotC/Hasbro has somehow informed this policy.
Just wanted to point out that there is no indication that you will need a laptop to play. The idea that you have to have one to play is just an incorrect rumor. I keep seeing this pop-up, and felt like I needed to clarify.
Note, I'm not necessarily sold on 4th or anything, but I do think it is important that we are clear about what is going on.
Best.
[rant]
This is what seems to me the worst of what I'm hearing about 4E. I'm sure you've all seen folks complaining about it, but now it's my turn.I don't want to have to have a laptop in front of me to make my character or to play the game I started playing 25 years ago!
Some of my fondest memories are of sitting around a table with pen, paper, dice and a stack 'o rule books BSing and making a character for the next epic adventure. I understand that WotC is in business to make money, but they are killing an icon and a part of my life that I've come to treasure will be nothing but a shade if they have their say.
I've dug my heels in with the group that I run for and play with. There will be 4th Edition allowed.
[/rant]
Thank you, I feel better. :p
I think passing off an "article" on their brand new CRAZY AWESOME (bold is the sarcasm font now) Inn Fighting game is pretty lame. Product placement is one thing; advertising your own stuff in your magazine isn't a big deal. Passing off an advertisement as a Dragon article is just lame, though. It's a website feature, if anything, and if that kind of thing is what they bring out when people have to pay for this then they deserve what they get, which I hope is a lot of requests for a refund.
I own all the Dungeon Magazine issues. All 150 of them. I call it my artifact, the Magazine of 150 Issues, and it gives me uber-leet powers.
Some people claim there are more than 150 issues. After all, several of my 150 have different companies responsible for their assembly, so isn't it possible that there could be another company still making more pieces to my artifact?
Poor misguided commoners. Sadly, there exactly 150 issues. What some people mistakenly call a Dragon is in reality, at best, a wyvern with a skin condition. And what others call a Dungeon is merely a root cellar with insufficent lighting. There are only 150 issues.