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I suppose I'm bucking the trend in a couple of ways -- I have no interest in a 3.75 edition and hope that Paizo will convert to 4E ... eventually.
Although I can understand Erik's trepidation regarding WotC's foot-dragging, I don't think it's as pressing a decision as it seems. Hell, even if WotC faxes over a draft tomorrow, if I were Erik I'd be inclined to wait until after AP3 to convert, anyway. Here's why:
Generally, I'm excited about the direction the 4E rules changes are taking -- it's the fluff changes that have me worried and disgusted. There are a LOT of areas of the 3E/3.5 rules I'm heartily sick of, and I expect 4E to be an improvement in at least 80 percent of those areas.
From what I've seen so far, I expect the ease of monster creation to be one of the areas of greatest improvement, meaning 3.5 --> 4E conversion should be relatively easy. I expect 4E --> 3.5 will be more difficult (as putting together 3.5 stat blocks for anything more advanced than a goblin is a pain in the rear).
So, my gut says don't stress about converting the APs in time for the 4E launch. Paizo has a proven track record of doing fluff and flavor better than anyone out there, and strong stories will stand up regardless of the rule set. Do AP3 with 3.5 stat blocks, with an eye towards monsters/traps/terrain that will be easily converted by early adopters with the initial 4E core rulebooks. Throwing quick conversions onto the Web-site shouldn't require too much work (you could even slap stickers on the AP issues directing folks there). That should allow plenty of time to evaluate the market before deciding what to do with AP4.
The proposed Pathfinder campaign book is stickier, and I don't have a great answer. Campaign books need a delicate blend of fluff and crunch, and out-dated crunch could be more detrimental in such a product. But IMHO, fighting the 4E tide in the long term is a losing battle. Going the 3.75 route is even riskier, I'd wager, because you can't even count on all the 4E haters to follow -- there are going to be 3.5 diehards that simply won't move on or have no interest in the Pathfinder setting. As far as my own gripes with 3.5, they're not the kind of thing that could easily be "ironed out" with a +.25 upgrade.
Frankly, I'm not surprised that WotC appears to be dragging their feet on bringing third party publishers into the loop in time for launch -- I don't think they want any company on the shelves early on. Really, what benefit is there for them? They definitely don't want any competitive "crunch" products (a la Creature Collection or whatever monster book it was that came out before the 3E MM) and they don't need a rash of early adventures -- after all, they'll be steering everyone to D&D Insider for that.
What they do need third party support for, eventually, is drawing all of us grognards and late-adopters onto the 4E train. While WotC focuses on luring in the so-called "new generation" players, companies like Necromancer and Paizo can produce adventures and sourcebooks that appeal to fans of old-style fluff. It's a win-win for them, as I'm sure they've run the math to determine they can be successful with an essentially all-new player base. Selling at least the three core rule books to veteran gamers drawn to old-school third party campaigns is gravy at that point. And while I find the motivations behind such a strategy vaguely repulsive, that hypothetical situation also serves my own purposes -- new rules, same flavor (courtesy of Erik, James and the gang).
Whew. To make a long post short, I hope to (eventually) use 4E rules to play Paizo's stories, and I don't mind doing a little conversion work early on.
Erik I would love to see Pathfinder rolling along in 3.5 or 3.paizo edition for as long as possible. Will it end up that way, probably not. The juggernaut that is 4E will likely sweep all the 3rd party publishers along in it's wake (unless the thing is a stillborn abomination which a small part of me wishes).
I'm not sure 4e will be the juggernaut you think. If you look at Paizo,s own poll, most of the posters here will stay 3rd edition. I seem to be one of the few exceptions. I'm not sure that WotC plans to even allow 3rd party publishers in on the 4e. game. If WotC cannot produce a copy of the 4e rules soon, then Paizo and others will be left behind at the lauch of 4e. I can see many unhappy 3rd edition holdouts supporting 3rd edition publishers through 2008. If that happens and Paizo can produce the same quality of products we all enjoy, then I think 3rd edition will have a community and publisher to support it. WotC is setting itself up to loose many potential customers in not supporting 3rd party publishers for releasig products at the launch of 4e.
Firstly given my perceptions of the industry I would think that not following Hasbro/4E eventually would be a courageous decision (in the Sir Humphrey from 'Yes Minister' version of courageous). I am surprised that you are seriously contemplating it but perhaps that shows how little I know about what will work in this industry. Sure if you said you would produce the 3rd AP using 3.5 due to publishing deadlines I would completely understand. In fact the purist in me would love it to stay a 3.5 world and I would prefer to get at least 3 or 4 3.5 AP's from pathfinder in case my 4e fears are true, even if you then converted.
My financial committment to Paizo will remain as it has been based largely on the quality of the adventures you produce. If you wish to change your subscription model to allow me to subscribe for a year or two in advance to both Pathfinder and Gamemastery I will put my money where my mouth is. I love the general level of support and I really love getting the PDF and the actual product. (I would be happy to buy hardcover AoW or ST if that ever happens)
I still hunt down and buy 1st and 2nd edition adventures to convert - even though I have only just started SC and havent touched AoW, ST or RotRL.
I will buy 4e core books but I dislike much of what I have heard. I get the feeling (perhaps paranoia) that unlike previous editions where they seemed to want to encourage people to be able to convert or use their 'old stuff' now they are explicitly saying that old stuff will be no use to you so you will have to buy all new stuff. That sort of action making their own product not only less useful but incompatible is despicable if done for marketing reasons.
Sorry for rambling... in short I will continue to support Paizo, do what you think is best.
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oh and why would I like to see a 3.75?
Two things I would want to see changed in 3.75
First is the skills. Skill points are too valuable to waste on flavor skills. Monte Cook's Iron Hero's skill system is much better and allows players to really flesh out the character. A skill system like this would be my first request.
Second, modify special combat maneuvers so they are playable without looking them up every time. Grapple is ridiculous. Again Monte Cook's combat system in IH allows for a lot more creativity when it comes to combat.
And yes, I do use Monte Cook's Iron Hero's as my base rules now. :)
Heck now that I think about it just hook up with Monte and use a modified IH (using standard magic levels) as the core rules for Pathfinder. Though grapple still needs some work :)
*HINT* Grapple rules- Make a grapple check (no AOOs) if you hit you grapple. During combat I make a hit check, the defender does not get an AOO on me and does not get to make extraordinary moves to avoid the hit. That is what AC is all about. No need to change basic combat concepts for grapple or disarm or something else. You don't wanna grapple get a high AC, (though I would apply Armor Check modifiers to the AC for these). Simple fast and no need to flip to the book every time.
Folks,
The clock is ticking, and we still have not seen a copy of the new Fourth Edition rules, nor have we seen a draft of the new SRD. But we've already passed the deadline for August solicitations in the book trade, and at a certain point the window for us to have Fourth Edition material at launch will close....
Erik,
I think the above quote is the operative dilemma facing you and all other extant 3.5 OGL publishers: you have no means by which to drop into the single major gaming convention of the year with a substantive product up to Paizo's well-established overall standard of quality at this point in time. All the material you and Necromancer Games and everyone else have earmarked for 4e are effectively hosed because of how important GenCon and Origins are to your businesses.
I hear conflicting things from WotC as to when (or even whether) third-party publishers will be provided the rules in time to have 4e-compatible products for next Gen Con. I have spoken before (at length) about the uncomfortable position in which this places Paizo, but I remain hopeful that we will get to look at the rules during the playtest phase and plan accordingly. This was, after all, how things worked for trusted publishers during the 2.0/3.0 transition, so I have every reason to believe that the business folks at WotC understand the benefits of third-party support when it comes to converting their audience. But still we wait.
What I am keeping in mind at present is that D&D is not floundering in an abyss of nightmare as they were at the 2e --> 3e transition phase. Nor are they relying upon thier twin in-house organs to communicate 4e as they did with 3e, they are instead relying upon the internet to do the lion's share of that transition. Thus, you wait, and I fear that the pointy-hats in Renton may well be under iron-clad orders from the ivory tower to (effectively) dismiss any concerns about converting thier pen-n-paper audience. Instead, they are aiming squarely at the minis-based audience it seems.
If Fourth Edition is awesome and if the OGL for the game does not tie our hands creatively or financially, we'll certainly strongly consider converting, and again I'd really like to see the material in time to judge whether or not it's a good game that our audience will like. But we've already passed the deadline for August solicitations in the book trade, and at a certain point the window for us to have Fourth Edition material at launch will close.
So I've been spending the last few nights thinking seriously about NOT converting. What it would mean for our business, what it would mean for our company, and potentially even what it would mean for the RPG industry as a whole.
(Emphasis in bold is my own, and yes I've quoted Erik twice regarding the August book deadline...)
The two above-emphasized if's are too crucial it seems, with all due respect. 4e could very well stand and deliver "the" D&D pen-n-paper game of the decade, especially if it comes with an excellent OGL that does not take the third-party publishers and force them to be the victim in a Deliverance re-enactment. However, most likely, it will be another 3.0, lasting maybe 2 years before 4.5 comes rocketing out of the pipe with a substantially improved game. If 4e survives those turbulent 2 years ...
It's pretty clear to me, from reading Wizards of the Coast's information releases on the new game, that they are designing a D&D for the "next generation," and that attracting a new audience to D&D is their utmost concern. It's for this reason that we've seen a lot of the old "sacred cows" slain, and from a business perspective it makes perfect sense why they would want to do this.
The designers, editors, and art folks working on D&D probably represent one of the most expensive Research and Development teams in the entire Hasbro "family," and an expense like that demands mega-profits. I'm not sure that a simple pencil and paper RPG can deliver the kind of profit required to keep Hasbro's support, which is why I think you're seeing pushes toward micro-purchases (say of "virtual" D&D Miniatures for use on the Virtual Tabletop similar to the "virtual" cards in Magic Online), ongoing opt-out low-cost digital "subscriptions", and a strong emphasis on the highly profitable prepainted plastic miniatures. It behooves Wizards of the Coast to "monetize" as many aspects of D&D as possible, to keep the game as fresh and free of limiting "baggage" (such as continuity), and to keep up with the design approaches taken by massively multiplayer online roleplaying games that appeal to the next generation of gamers. To keep Hasbro happy, D&D must deliver huge profits similar to the company's other brands to remain a viable business for the corporation.
These two paragraphs here strike me as the seed of the motivation for 4e, all boiling down to the almighty dollar and the many shareholders of Hasbro. WoTC has to answer to those same shareholders, and to do so they have determined that they need to take these particular steps that we are seeing now. The monthly splat-fest simply (it seems) was insufficiently profitable for the ivory tower, who most likely do not see from on high the details, nor do they likely care - they only want the results they have tasked the pointy-hats to achieve, within the timeframe they have been tasked to achieve it.
Are there enough players willing to make a break from Wizards of the Coast and the Dungeons & Dragons brand to sustain a healthy 3.5-based Pathfinder business? I don't know. A part of me is very skeptical about it, but until we get a chance to evaluate the new rules set, this is exactly the sort of scenario we are forced to consider, and I do not find the prospect wholly without its merits.
What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Thanks,
Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
Are there enough players willing to make a break for it? That would depend on your sales figures - how much of a percentage is derived from sales of WotC product compared to Paizo's overall sales in my estimation. Can Paizo survive and thrive on that second percentage?
I will definitely maintain my Pathfinder subscription for the forseeable future, especially as you collectively learn and improve from what you started off with. As the established tradition of adventure paths has shown many, each path learns the lessons of the previous. Each path in Dungeon was an improvement on the last in terms of the flow of the story and the palatability of the BBEG's. Having, to a degree, to start afresh is clear in Rise of the Runelords - but not so much so as was the case with Shackled City.
The 4e hype has me split. On the one paw, there is the always-intriguing prospect of a 'clean slate' to work from, and new game mechanics to play with. On the other paw, I am no neophyte gamer nerd craving his MMORPG fix of the day or virtual anything. I'm not particularly fond of PDFs save when they represent the sole means to accomplish whatever gaming goal faces me. And frankly, the 4e hype has my tolerance for stupidity gauge hovering just below the red line.
What do I want Paizo to do ? I want Paizo to survive and thrive. I want Paizo to continue its established standards of excellence. If that means the pacing of new product slows down, fine by me. If that means you do a "3.pi" OGL D&D, even better. If that means you beg, borrow and steal ideas from 4e and graft them onto 3e - which many of your forumites are likely to do anyway - that's another plus. And of course I want Paizo to continue it's stellar community interactivity.
Thanks for your time Paizonians, both company and forum. Thanks to you, great joy is to be had from D&D once again.
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A possibly cogent thought:
While there is no question that converting to 4E is the safer bet financially, it has the downside -- how much of a downside I can't know -- of tying Paizo's future to the whims of WotC and, by extension, Hasbro. Let's face it: the revocation of the licenses to produce Dragon and Dungeon had nothing to do with Paizo's plans and everything to do with the new direction WotC has decided to take the game -- the "monetizing" you mentioned, among other things. Going the 4E route, there's no way you can know what WotC has in store and who's to say that a few years after the new edition they don't make some other unexpected change in direction?
Staying with v.3.5 or, better yet, developing your own 3.5-derived Pathfinder RPG puts Paizo in charge of its own destiny. But of course that destiny is one fraught with peril, since many D&D players, maybe even the vast majority of them, will jump to 4E without question. True, Paizo doesn't need to capture even a large percentage of active players to be successful; it doesn't need to pull down WotC numbers. Unfortunately, there's simply no way to guarantee that this approach would succeed, even if it might allow more creative freedom and serve the company better in the long term.
So, it's a tough call and I don't envy Erik or anyone else who has to make it. For purely selfish reasons, I favor staying with v.3.5/3.75 but it's a very risky option.
Another thing to consider is the multiple PHBs and MMs and DMGs they plan. Right now you can design a game for a few basic core classes and races. However, what happens when there are 30 core races and 30 wizardly classes of the 200 classes that are made up of 20 PHBs? It is a very possibility... think about it and shudder
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What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Hi Erik. Thanks for exposing your thoughts, and thanks for asking.
What do I think? There's a part of me that is skeptical about a Pathfinder RPG/3.75 rules set. I share your feelings on that. BUT a part of me really wants to see *the game I love* live on without being tied to all the garbage PR and completely underwhelming modernization that's going on regarding the support, DDI et cetera the game receives from Wizards.
So, consequently:
Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? Most definitely YES.
how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Pardon my French, but the whole thing makes me puke so far. Got nothing against the designers, nothing a priori against 4E itself, but the PR... MAN, that pisses me off!
Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1? No.
What do YOU want Paizo to do? Go with the dream, the excitement. Pursue it. Grab it. Make it real for us all!
Go with what you guys feel is *right*. Not what's "convenient".
You guys need Paizo to survive, and I want you to. Grasp the passion, build something with it, and if you're excited about it, trust me, we will KNOW and will follow you to the end of Oerth if need be.
I'm not talking about a business decision that wouldn't make sense. But PLEASE don't give in to the easy way. IF you see a harder, tougher way, but one that satisfies the ambitions you have for Paizo and our hobby more to you, then that's the way it's got to be. We guys aren't in gaming to make it easy on us. We'd be working on MMOs or Card Games or whatnot if it were the case. Nah. We're in it because we love it. It has to be our drive.
Voilà. That's my bottom line.
Thanks again for the occasion to speak up. - Benoist
Considering that Paizo has put out better material than WotC has in recent memory (other than a couple like Fiendish Codex I and Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk--I wonder what happened to those guys :-), it's a no brainer for me if it becomes a choice between WotC or Paizo. If you guys come out with your OGL for 3.75 for companies like say Green Ronin (I love me Freeport), all the better.
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Turin the Mad pointed out that the minis aspect of the game will receive preeminence. Which I foresee as well. Look at the release schedule.
They will release the 4E miniatures edition first
The next month sees a supplement for the miniatures edition
Then the NEXT month sees the release of the PHB1
The miniatures game gets first release and a supplement before the pencil and paper version is even released. I think this is very telling about the emphasis of 4E.
As I said in another thread, I'm pretty sure I'll be playing Fourth Edition, but if I continue to enjoy the material Paizo produces, I'll continue to use it, even if I have to convert it for my game.
I'm not sure I will be interested in a "3.75" standalone game, though. One of the reasons that I'm interested in Fourth Edition is because it's mechanically revamping everything, not just fixing the currently-iffy spots.
On the other hand, make it a good enough game - and distinct enough from what Fourth Edition offers - and I'll be more interested. To make a comparison, I'm not interested in playing Vampire: The Masquerade anymore because Vampire: The Requiem took everything I liked about the old game and did it better, while cutting out everything I disliked.
The potential difference, to me, with a Paizo "3.75" game would be that I trust you guys to make a game with the flavour of earlier editions that was worth playing. I can't imagine playing a Masquerade game when I could use Requiem instead, purely on flavour terms.
I was negative to undecided about 4E, but after reading some of the rules mechanics changes, I am finding to my surprise that I am looking forward to a lot of the mechanics changes.
I could care less about fluff, elves vs. eldarin, succubi as demons, etc. Fluff is fluff; you can always change it or wait for a 3rd party to come along and do better, re: Golarion. No gnomes or half orcs as PC choices in the PHB? So what - someone either on the 'net or a 3rd party publisher will come along and make 'em. A lot (not all) of the sacred cows you talked about are just fluff - look at the stink here on the Pazio boards that erupted over the length of a Golarion elf's's ears.
Ears. We were fighting about ears. I swear sometimes us gamers pick fights just for the fun of fighting.
Me and my group will be playing in the Paizo world no matter what. If that means some of your fluff is different from official 4E, that's fine by me. You've already done things different, with the creation of a new world. Your goblins are different. Your elves are different. Your cosmology, history, everything is different, and that's just fine. The three core books work great with it, and I think that the three 4E core books will work just fine as well. I'm sorry to hear that WOTC's delays are making trouble for third party publishers; I just finished reading a good thread over at ENWorld on this very topic where Necromancer games was talking about the very same thing.
Personally, I (now) hope you do make the switch to 4E because from a rules mechanic's standpoint, I'm growing more and more comfortable with the changes they're making. I hope and pray that WOTC doesn't screw this up for everyone - but seeing their recent track record (the digital abominations that they dare call Dungeon and Dragon magazines, "Gleemax" - what a joke, their completely mishandled 4th Edition PR campaign), I'm not confident that they'll do the right thing and get you the 4E rules sooner rather than later.
This is somewhat sad and disheartening news - I was hoping that WOTC and the 3rd party publishers could all move the hobby forward together. Instead, we could end up fragmenting it further.
Gee, thanks WOTC.
Wizards of the Coast is a multi-million-dollar subsidiary of a billion-dollar toy corporation.
Which is what D&D is going to become action figures and playsets.
3.5
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Paizo is deffintely capable of cutting the WotC strings and standing on their own. A 3.75 Pathfinder campaign setting would be, IMO, the way to go. I think just sticking with AP's could get a little stale as those of us who GM drown in adventures. Giving us the ability to create our own campaigns in the Pathfinder setting would be great.
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My group has already discussed it, and we're not going to get on the 4.0 bandwagon.
I may buy the PHB to mine for nuggets, but we'll be staying 3.5.
That pretty much means as long as the stuff Paizo is putting out is 3.5 (or 3.75, as long as THAT'S not going to be a huge financial investment) we'll stay right there with you. If you go 4.0, we'll start looking elsewhere, while still probably picking up the campaign fluff your produce (since it seems like you're going to stay truer to three decades of history than WotC.)
Wizards of the Coast is a multi-million-dollar subsidiary of a billion-dollar toy corporation.
Which is what D&D is going to become action figures and playsets.3.5
They did action figures and play sets *points to the fortress of fangs sitting on top of the book-shelf in his office* and it didn't work in the 80s when action figures were big... what would possibly make them think it will work now?
- Ashavan
What if you did a fourth AP that was shorter than the others? Instead of doing six issues, just do three? That would buy you some time.
Isn't there anyone at Wizards who can give you a firm date on when (or even if) they'll be giving you the info you need on 4E?
I think the unfortunate reality is that you have to go to 4E as soon as it is feasible.
Wizards of the Coast is a multi-million-dollar subsidiary of a billion-dollar toy corporation.
Which is what D&D is going to become action figures and playsets.3.5
My suspicion is that if 4th edition doesn't hit its sales marks, D&D won't "become" anything else (Hasbro has been trying this for years with video games that aren't traditional RPGs, the movies, etc), but that it will be jettisoned from the corporate mothership.
Before anyone rejoices, they may sell it to someone that really doesn't know what to do with the property, or they may sell it off piecemeal, selling Dragonlance to this company, Forgotten Realms to this one, Greyhawk to this one. I hope they don't, and I hope if this comes to pass they sell it to someone that buys the whole she bang and knows how to handle it, but that's a tall order.
I know I don't like 4th edition, but at the same time, I still care how this does, because I do fear that we may be on the verge of becoming an even more niche hobby than we already are.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'm leaning away from what I'm hearing about 4E. Don't get me wrong, I WANT to like 4E, but for everything I read about it that I like, I read 2 things that I don't like. That combined with the wealth of 3.5 materials (both supplements and adventures) that I have, I see my future gaming purchases either stopping completely for several years until I've worked through all I want to with 3.5, and then seeing what's out there that I like (either 4E, 5E, or something non-D&D entirely.)
The alternative would be to buy products which either supported 3.5 still or were for a 3.75 type system a la Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. If such a system were from Paizo, I'd feel very confident in it sight unseen. So, to summarize my longwinded answer - YES - make 3.75 and make it what 4E should have been!
Erik, this thread illustrates why I have switched my loyalty from WotC to Paizo--you guys actually communicate with your customer base, listen to their comments, and try your best to run a business that both maintains profitability and meets those needs you identify. I plan on taking a careful look at 4.0, as I have with all the other editions of D&D. If it's good enough, I'd use it whole-clothe. If it's got good parts, I'd take those and can the rest (the OGC could be reinterpreted as needed to fit in 3.5). And if it's crap, I won't even use it. I suspect Paizo has far more skill at such evaluation then I, and so I trust Paizo to go through such a process and continue providing the quality RPG material I'm looking to purchase. So, do your analysis, do what's best for the game, and you'll have my cash.
Not to threadjack, and this is sort of related....
I was thinking about the "Pathfinder RPG" angle, it occured to me...
What about the Gazeteer, expected in January?
Classic Monsters Revisited?
City of Korvosa?
If there is a quick conversion to 4th edition, those books will be outdated fast. Those books will service just one AP and then any crunch aspect they might have.. will be done. But, if there is a "Pathfinder RPG" the conversion of those books will be much simpler, whether the fans do it, or Paizo does it.
You see, Erik's question was framed in the context of "What if we don't convert to 4?"
There should also be consideration on "What if they do?"
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Realistically, I will most likely play the 3rd adventure path in 4.0. If Paizo doesn't convert, I'll probably do the conversion myself. I think its always going to be easier to get player's to play the current version of the game.
I don't think a 3.75 version will work. If people want to keep playing 3.5 because they have a lot of 3.5 books, Paizo won't be able to support them because most of those 3.5 books are not open content. If Paizo puts out a 3.75 ruleset, it will have to directly compete with 4.0 and I don't think Paizo has the resources to take on WotC head-on.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Frankly, I'm not surprised that WotC appears to be dragging their feet on bringing third party publishers into the loop in time for launch -- I don't think they want any company on the shelves early on. Really, what benefit is there for them?
Well, for starters, it would get every person on this thread who says "I'll do what Paizo does" to convert to the new system.
And, as it turns out, there are a lot more people in that boat than I would have expected.
--Erik
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Course I still think Paizo should just wait a bit (3.75 is fine) and buy DD& from Hasbro when they sell it in the next few years. Really. Just leverage yourselves to have the capital and be ready. D&D changed hands several times between 2E and 3E. I really think that hasbro is not going to be happy with 4E returns and will sell off D&D in a few years. Of all companies I want Paizo to be the ones to buy it.
Yes, I know this is a far off situation but one I think LIsa and Erik and others really need to sit down one day and have a real serious meeting over it. No one ever thought TSR would sell to Wizards and no ever though Hasbro of all companies would buy Wizards. D&D WILL change hands again eventually. The question is, will Paizo have had the foresight to be ready to buy it?
I certainly hope so. (Lisa get the checkbook ready)
Erik, I think that you need to stall for time. Howzabout a three issue mini-campaign in 3.5 to buy time to assess 4.0?
For the long-term, I think that switching to 4.0 is probably wisest from a business standpoint. Many people are upset about "fluff" changes, but such things are largely irrelevent when Paizo is publishing its own campaign world (with its own fluff) anyway.
I think that you need to look at the same issue Hasbro is--how can you grow your customer base? The long-time fans eventually grow old and go away; if they are not replaced by young blood, your company has a built-in time limit before dissolution. Whether you like it or not, the new generation of gamer wants different things from RPGs than the fans of the last three decades. Either you try and accomodate this reality, or you risk preserving D&D like a relic in a museum...
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Frankly, I'm not surprised that WotC appears to be dragging their feet on bringing third party publishers into the loop in time for launch -- I don't think they want any company on the shelves early on. Really, what benefit is there for them?Well, for starters, it would get every person on this thread who says "I'll do what Paizo does" to convert to the new system.
And, as it turns out, there are a lot more people in that boat than I would have expected.
--Erik
Why would you be surprised?
We have been saying for ages that Paizo is the ONLY company producing high quality products (adventures) these days. If we want to play the adventure we will want to use whatever system Paizo uses.
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Erik, I think that you need to stall for time. Howzabout a three issue mini-campaign in 3.5 to buy time to assess 4.0?
For the long-term, I think that switching to 4.0 is probably wisest from a business standpoint. Many people are upset about "fluff" changes, but such things are largely irrelevent when Paizo is publishing its own campaign world (with its own fluff) anyway.
I think that you need to look at the same issue Hasbro is--how can you grow your customer base? The long-time fans eventually grow old and go away; if they are not replaced by young blood, your company has a built-in time limit before dissolution. Whether you like it or not, the new generation of gamer wants different things from RPGs than the fans of the last three decades. Either you try and accomodate this reality, or you risk preserving D&D like a relic in a museum...
True but not quite to the mark for Paizo.
Right now it is WOTCs job to pull in new gamers. Not Paizo's. The new gamers that come in today are not going to have the money power to throw down a couple thousand dollars for books and such for several years. That means that companies like Paizo who are in the middle can appeal to current old gamers with deep pockets and look forward to future customers with different desires later on. Old gamers will sustain the game for another decade. New gamers will grow the game after that when they attain earning power.
3rd party companies should be looking at where the money is now, with eye toward where it will come from later. Prepare a transition plan and work on that. We will probably have a 5th Edition by then.
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I have come to realize that WoTC is not making 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
They are making D&D 2.0, a re-imagining of the game.
Personally I expect this will go over like "New Coke", Why? Well why did new coke fail? Most re-imaginings are 20+year old TV shows or out of print RPGS. With Coca-cola, they tried to replace something that was still popular, still available and D&D3E falls into that catagory.
Personally, I don't even want to try to re-learn how to play D&D, I already know how to play the game. I mean you don't come along 30 years later and decide to change the rules of Chess or Checkers!
I would fully support a Pathfinder RPG, especially if it was a 3.75 rules. Yes we would lose the non-SRD material, but as Pathfinder has already shown, you guys are more than able to come up with new stuff that is even better!
Course I still think Paizo should just wait a bit (3.75 is fine) and buy DD& from Hasbro when they sell it in the next few years. Really. Just leverage yourselves to have the capital and be ready. D&D changed hands several times between 2E and 3E. I really think that hasbro is not going to be happy with 4E returns and will sell off D&D in a few years. Of all companies I want Paizo to be the ones to buy it.
No one ever thought TSR would sell to Wizards and no ever though Hasbro of all companies would buy Wizards. D&D WILL change hands again eventually. The question is, will Paizo have had the foresight to be ready to buy it?
I certainly hope so. (Lisa get the checkbook ready)
Checkbook heck, put up the option to invest to the gamers!
Frankly, I'm not surprised that WotC appears to be dragging their feet on bringing third party publishers into the loop in time for launch -- I don't think they want any company on the shelves early on. Really, what benefit is there for them?Well, for starters, it would get every person on this thread who says "I'll do what Paizo does" to convert to the new system.
And, as it turns out, there are a lot more people in that boat than I would have expected.
--Erik
Why would you be surprised?
We have been saying for ages that Paizo is the ONLY company producing high quality products (adventures) these days. If we want to play the adventure we will want to use whatever system Paizo uses.
*points to Goodman Games*
I have to say, I love Paizo, and their communication can't be beat, but Goodman also produces some kick ass adventures.
- Ashavan
PS - Eric, I know you hate the fluff changes, I do too, but I also want paizo to produce adventures, and it can't do that if it goes bankrupt trying to support 3.5 if that isn't financially feasible. You know, better than any of us, whether that is something Paizo can do.
What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1? What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Erik,
Paizo in its creation of Pathfinder and the world of Golorion has rolled a 20!
In answer to your questions:
1. I will be around for the third Pathfinder Adventure Path Second Darkness if it remains v3.5.
2. I will not be running a v4.0 D&D adventure ever.
3. The v4.0 hype is treating me poorly. The result: I no longer have a desire even to add the v4.0 Core Rulebooks to my bookself, period.
4. I would like Paizo to publish an augmented version of v3.5 under its own brandname Pathfinder so that in the future I can describe myself as a "Pathfinder player -- you know, what it used to mean to play a pen and paper roleplaying game before D&D became all banged up by its re-invent-everything designers."
5. I would like Paizo and the Pathfinder RPG to flourish.
You can count me in for 3 copies of your new Pathfinder Role Playing Game.
My 2 cents.
Second Darkness as 3.5 is just fine.
Don't do a 3.75. Don't spend your resources of time and energy on a product that will be used by only a subset of current customers.
Develop the following which would likely have broader use to both adopters of 4e and those staying with 3.5:
A detailed campaign setting that preserves the fluff and feel of the game that we and many others like.
Get ahead on the production schedule of AP's using 3.5. Once (if) you get the SRD for 4.0, use the "breathing space" to come up with a workable conversion process.
Bottom line, you should ultimately keep your print product usable by the largest proportion of potential customers (not just current). And create a conversion that can be easily applied and downloaded, whether that be 3.5 -> 4 or vice versa.
Edit: I'll add that I will probably stay 3.5 and maybe cherry pick some rules from 4e that "correct" things I don't like in 3.5. But I want Paizo to be successful and, like WOTC, eventually that means attracting and retaining a younger crowd.
My group and I discussed 4E D&D and decided that we don't want to change.
We play once a month and will be finishing The Savage Tide at the end of this year then we will start The Rise of the Runelords. With a once a month game we will be playing this for some time. After that I plan to continue running Paizo products till the end of time.
If Paizo changes to 4E we will probably follow but we would be happier if we didn't have to buy a bunch of new rulebooks to stay Paizo faithful.
I'm a skeptical person by nature; many of us here are. We've taken WotC to task - I know I've taken Paizo to task as well*.
That said, your (Erik's) posting is very telling - its a message to both its customers, but could also be construed as a message to Wizards. I do not envy the postion you and your company are in.
For the record, I have decided to never run D&D again (I realize that I am one of many and insubstantial, but you asked...). Thats not to say that I won't use Paizo material, however. Quite the contrary.
I plan on running Powers & Perils, heavily modified incorporating the best traits of d20 system (AoO and Move/Standard actions) IF my group is willing to play it. There's a chance that my group says no to my system. I will fall to plan B: Iron Heroes. If Paizo were to forge a 3.75 d20 system then PERHAPS (although unlikely) there is a Plan C tobe offered to the group. Ultimately the direction I go is truly dictated by the group, which I am sad to say, are power-gamers firmly in WotC corner. :(
Regardless, I will call upon Paizo for my story material; its been very good and I see no reason why it would not continue to be so.
I think you should go 4E if at all possible. Why? In my case three things.
One, its the smartest business move for PAizo because it is most likely to keep you guys around as a top notch alternative to WOTC nonsense.
Two, staying 3.5 or going 3.75 PAthfinder would be fine with me, but I agree its a high risk venture on your part, and I would only encourage it if Paizo is financially strong enough to survive trying it and switching to 4E if its a failure. I don't get the impression you guys are that strong, financially.
Three, Castles and Crusades is my rules set of choice, so I don't care what rules set you guys use, its all the same to me.
So I am here irregardless of what you do. I just want you guys to be here as well.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Not to threadjack, and this is sort of related....
I was thinking about the "Pathfinder RPG" angle, it occured to me...
What about the Gazeteer, expected in January?
Classic Monsters Revisited?
City of Korvosa?
[/i]
These are all intentionally "rules light" to avoid these types of problems.
--Erik
Erik, it's like 6:40 p.m. out in your neck of the woods - and you're not in burning California ... go home and check back in tomorrow... :P
As a gamer, I will reserve judgment regarding 4th Ed. until I see it.
I think WotC has correctly identified a number of problems in 3.5 and are trying to address them. No idea yet whether they have or will succeed.
I think Paizo is MUCH more in touch with the consumer base than WotC is, and much more trustworthy. Part of it might be "company line" hype WotC employees have put forth and part of it might be the insular nature of their in-house design and development system, but WotC gives the impression that if they didn't think of it, it isn't worth thinking. And that just doesn't scan. If I could say one thing to Bill Slavicsek, its that after touting how the rest of us just don't know what he knows... he had better be very, very, VERY right when WotC finally puts up the end product for inspection, because he's frittered away our patience, goodwill, and margins for error.
I would be interested in a D&D 3.75 system that tweaks without replacing my eight-year 3.5 collection. I believe that of all the publishers currently in the market, Paizo is the most likely to make it work. If Paizo can't do it right, nobody can.
That said, a "Pathfinder" RPG is even more vaporware than 4th Ed. is, and either or both could suck hard and either or both could be awesome.
So my response is: if you make Pathfinder RPG, I will be interested. If it were fielded before 4th Edition "settles in," if the revised Pathfinder mechanics meet my approval, AND IF ENOUGH OTHER PEOPLE ALSO SUPPORT IT SO THAT I COULD RECRUIT NEW PLAYERS EASILY (the toughest nut to crack), I could easily see myself going with a Pathfinder RPG over 4th Ed.
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I'm fine with the third edition version of your APs for as long as you can continue making them. Delighted with them in fact. Skinsaw murders figures to be one of the best adventures I've ever run. If you guys change nothing, I'll be a subscriber until my wife takes away my credit card.
As a business decision, I'm skeptical of trying a 3.Paizo - simply because it will increase the 'front door' price of the stuff you are doing that has parts of 3.Paizo built into it. Why go head to head with your own thing against 4th ed? Just keep cranking out adventures that work with the rules we all already know.
You guys know your business. My 2 cents.
I think you're going to hear from a lot of diehard fans here who may not, ultimately, accurately represent your entire base of customers.
If I were you, I'd plan on 4E. I know you're in regular contact with the Necromancer guys, and I think they have the right of it: Write for the Saga Edition, essentially, and odds are, you'll be pretty close to where you need to be when you finally get the rules. Worst case scenario, you issue a sincere (and understandable) mea culpa and put up errata online immediately.
Because sticking with the old version isn't going to work, no matter how great your product is, no matter how the hardcore may say otherwise (unless they each vow to buy 100 books each). Just look at how poorly the truly outstanding Redhurst Academy of Magic did, as it came out as a 3E purchase the same week as 3.5 hit.
All the oxygen is going of the room for 3E, whether or not anyone likes it. I think it's a bad idea to continue to sell to a market that won't really be there in sufficient numbers.
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Erik, speaking as someone who's subscribed to both Dragon and Dungeon for the entirety of Paizo's tenure, I feel pretty safe in saying that I trust in the people at Paizo to make the best products out there, regardless of the edition. The Adventure Paths are the best things out of 3e, hands down, in my book. Quality like that doesn't come from a company that is more focused on a marketing department's latest ideas on "how to grow the game" or the bottom line or corporate dictates from on high or just whatever stupid idea is behind WotC's push into 4e.
If Paizo decides that 4e is worth pursuing, then so be it. I'll still subscribe to Pathfinder and hopefully find things worth lifting for my continuing 3.X game. But I really don't think that's the way to go, at least for right now. There are just too many 3e fans who are unhappy with the changes in 4e, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of those would agree that 3.5 is not without its flaws. Some of the mechanics need fixing, and with Monte Cook out of the d20 buisness, there's nobody else I'd trust to fix it. A "3.Paizo" game sounds like a great idea to me. I think there's just too many people unhappy with 4e, looking for someone, some company to help them out of this dark hole. It may just be a purple golem with a spark to give them that light and a hand out.
And if all else fails, and 4e actually proves to be the best game out there, then I know Paizo will be making the best 4e material on the market. But why settle for changing things you and your fans don't like, just to match with WotC's dictates? Why continue as a de facto tool of WotC, meeting demands that it just isn't quite profitable for they themselves to meet? Why not seize the future for Paizo and make it your own, to rise or fall by your own labors and not just doing the best you can with what a corporate entity gives you? Two words sum it up best, if you want this fan's opinion: carpe diem, Erik. Carpe diem. Or carpe 3.Paizo, I suppose.
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oh and why would I like to see a 3.75?
Two things I would want to see changed in 3.75
This is why 3.75 would be a risky move ... while you like the idea of changing these 2 things, there may be a significant portion of community that doesn't. Or maybe they want to change thing that you think doesn't need to be changed.
Any 3.75e version is bound to be a mixed bag. I would think that it's likely to aggravate as many or more people than it please. It'll be the 3e-3.5e conversion all over again; just on a smaller scale.
-Skeld
Frankly, I'm not surprised that WotC appears to be dragging their feet on bringing third party publishers into the loop in time for launch -- I don't think they want any company on the shelves early on. Really, what benefit is there for them?Well, for starters, it would get every person on this thread who says "I'll do what Paizo does" to convert to the new system.
And, as it turns out, there are a lot more people in that boat than I would have expected.
--Erik
Well, these are the PAIZO messagebords afterall, so we may be a little biased :-)
Right now our group is planning on using all of our current modules 3.5/3.0 and unused adventure paths before considering converting to 4th ed. This will probably take us a considerable amount of time as we move through games slowly, but buy modules as they come out.
If Paizo were to put out more 3.5 content after the release of 4th we would definitely pick it up. If you were to create a 3.75 system I know for a fact that I would pick it up because you guys put out a quality product.
Paizo will always be involved in our games!
Barring some major revelation that turns me off of 4E, I would not buy the third adventure path if it were done under 3.5 (or some variant).
Though, to be honest, I might not be buying it even if it is under 4E rules; I've been making plans for my own campaign to start off 4E, which will limit my use of adventures, and Pathfinder is a bit too expensive if I'm not going to run the adventures.