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4.0: PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED


D&D 4th Edition (and Beyond)

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For what it's worth, count me as another vote for sticking with 3.5E or a 3.75 revision. My gaming group has reacted with nothing but dismay at everything we've heard about 4E. Some of us have been playing D&D since 1E and feel that this update has nothing for us and most likely is not even be geared towards us, the 30-something gamer.

But I've been nothing but impressed with the quality of Paizo's products, magazines and otherwise. Keep up the good work!


Stay 3.5 or even 3.75 and you will whole heartedly have 100% of my support, financially and vocally. I'd love to see you all give it a try, and if it don't work out for you after 2-3 years then I guess you'd be forced to convert to 4E.

Either way, best of luck, and the longer you all stay 3.xx, the longer I spend my dork dollars here.


I don't play D&D anymore. I buy Paizo's products and convert them. My Savage Tide is BESM.
This is because some of my gamers don't like D&D anymore...too complicated. WotC says that it will be easier with the 4th, at least I will read it. So I say, if the quality is right, the system does not matter too much.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

By the way, when it all comes down to it, I sure hope a lot of you put your money where your mouth is and ante up when the time comes to reallly support any 3.5 material. I certainly WILL, and CAN. But I can only imagine Paizo's fearing a "Serenity" backlash:

Browncoats convinced Joss Whedon that Serenity would make more money than Star Wars and he begged them to please get others to watch it to make it #1 and to STAY there. And they utterly, utterly failed him. They spoke big for 2-3 YEARS then went and sat in a corner when they were needed most.

My game groups are all of the 3.5 variety and I have folks who are serious. We haven't even had the chance to use 75% of our current material which is still exciting and fresh and more importantly FUN to us. In fact we can't WAIT to see all the cool stuff we have in play!

So if you're gonna stick, make sure you're not blowing smoke to give Paizo an uninformed decision. Oh, and for whoever may remind me "we don't know anything about 4E yet", I've ALREADY heared ENOUGH! :-)

-DM Jeff


DM Jeff wrote:

By the way, when it all comes down to it, I sure hope a lot of you put your money where your mouth is and ante up when the time comes to reallly support any 3.5 material. I certainly WILL, and CAN. But I can only imagine Paizo's fearing a "Serenity" backlash:

Browncoats convinced Joss Whedon that Serenity would make more money than Star Wars and he begged them to please get others to watch it to make it #1 and to STAY there. And they utterly, utterly failed him. They spoke big for 2-3 YEARS then went and sat in a corner when they were needed most.

My game groups are all of the 3.5 variety and I have folks who are serious. We haven't even had the chance to use 75% of our current material which is still exciting and fresh and more importantly FUN to us. In fact we can't WAIT to see all the cool stuff we have in play!

So if you're gonna stick, make sure you're not blowing smoke to give Paizo an uninformed decision. Oh, and for whoever may remind me "we don't know anything about 4E yet", I've ALREADY heared ENOUGH! :-)

-DM Jeff

Ditto (on all counts!)

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

DM Jeff wrote:

By the way, when it all comes down to it, I sure hope a lot of you put your money where your mouth is and ante up when the time comes to reallly support any 3.5 material. I certainly WILL, and CAN. But I can only imagine Paizo's fearing a "Serenity" backlash:

Browncoats convinced Joss Whedon that Serenity would make more money than Star Wars and he begged them to please get others to watch it to make it #1 and to STAY there. And they utterly, utterly failed him. They spoke big for 2-3 YEARS then went and sat in a corner when they were needed most.

My game groups are all of the 3.5 variety and I have folks who are serious. We haven't even had the chance to use 75% of our current material which is still exciting and fresh and more importantly FUN to us. In fact we can't WAIT to see all the cool stuff we have in play!

So if you're gonna stick, make sure you're not blowing smoke to give Paizo an uninformed decision. Oh, and for whoever may remind me "we don't know anything about 4E yet", I've ALREADY heared ENOUGH! :-)

-DM Jeff

In all fairness to your example, Serenity (when all was said and done) was in the black. So much so that Universal released a special edition of the movie and is investigating if a sequal is worth the investment.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

This is the deal for me:
I buy these products for the background and 'stuff' for lack of a better word. I have all my AD&D, D&D 2nd, 3rd and 3.5. I use them all. Stats are nothing compared to good ideas. I've been playing long enough to be able to work the mechanical bits out.
Pathfinder #1 blew me away. Seriously, I've been gaming for a long time, and it knocked my socks off. I'm still not sure if I liked the adventure or the source material better, but keep it coming!
My group is 3.5 right now. Will we look at 4th ed? Sure. Will we buy and play? Probably. Will we also play campaigns in 3.5 that we have/will start? Yep. We've played multiple games/game systems for along time now. We tend to identify them by the campaign/DM's name, not the edition.
For Paizo, I suspect you will switch to 4.0 as soon as logical(schedules, production, SRD release, etc.). Until then, I hope you will continue to produce the Pathfinder to the same quality it is now. Based on Pathfinder I also added the GameMastery modules to my subscription, as I am joining the Canadian Forces (Navy) and expect to have no time to write material. Yours is the best I've seen so far. I'll keep using it, so long as you keep the quality, customer service and openness that I see right now as the best in the industry. 3.5, 3.75, 4.0, it's the creativity and the ideas that matter, not the mechanics.
Enough of my rambling. I'll stick with you, whichever edition.


Hi All,
I have bought hundreds of dollars of v3.5 items over the past few years. I am not about to switch to v4.0 anytime soon (if ever)! I am DMing the WLD and that will last us a very long time. The other campaign I am in with Dithering Fool (RHoD) should keep us busy for a while. If Paizo keeps coming out with 3.5 stuff, I am sure we will be using it. I think one day Paizo will need to put out some 4.0 stuff to keep some people happy and tap that new market, but I am happy with the library of 3.5 stuff I have now!

Stab you later:)


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
DM Jeff wrote:

By the way, when it all comes down to it, I sure hope a lot of you put your money where your mouth is and ante up when the time comes to reallly support any 3.5 material. I certainly WILL, and CAN. But I can only imagine Paizo's fearing a "Serenity" backlash:

Browncoats convinced Joss Whedon that Serenity would make more money than Star Wars and he begged them to please get others to watch it to make it #1 and to STAY there. And they utterly, utterly failed him. They spoke big for 2-3 YEARS then went and sat in a corner when they were needed most.

My game groups are all of the 3.5 variety and I have folks who are serious. We haven't even had the chance to use 75% of our current material which is still exciting and fresh and more importantly FUN to us. In fact we can't WAIT to see all the cool stuff we have in play!

So if you're gonna stick, make sure you're not blowing smoke to give Paizo an uninformed decision. Oh, and for whoever may remind me "we don't know anything about 4E yet", I've ALREADY heared ENOUGH! :-)

-DM Jeff

In all fairness to your example, Serenity (when all was said and done) was in the black. So much so that Universal released a special edition of the movie and is investigating if a sequal is worth the investment.

I liked Serenity. I got my copy sitting right on top of my Firefly Box set right now. And I just bought U1 last week. Seems DCC is not going to be put out by Goodman Games any longer so GameMastery doesn't have to compete with them for my gaming dollars now, either.


EN World wrote:
WotC will publish one Player's Handbook, one DM Guide and one Monster Manual every year.

Yet another reason to NEVER buy 4th edition...


There is another alternative. Sorry if it's been mentioned already, i haven't read all of the thread. You could make Pathfinder systemless. This has pros and cons, of course. Pros being that you aren't beholden to anyone or any rules changes and/or updates. You can really let your imagination go as far as the adventures and adversaries go (leaving the customer to decide what creature or class ect best fits the description in the adventure) and the community could grow as a result. Every single game group would have a different game using the same source material. Posting here about it could very well improve your internet traffic, with actual play reports further beniffiting your customers to give them ideas.

The cons are a) no longer being associated directly with the biggest name in the business. b) more work for your customers to convert the modules to their own system. This could be the killer in terms of sales.

However, you have a good name and a good customer base. One dedicated 'manual' could be published to explain how to use the books (eg; Sir Wastrel is a Novice. This tells people that he isn't very high level and that his skills are low. This can then be taken into consideration by the GM when he is filling in the blanks. Monster descriptions can be fit to the best fit in the system being used or a section giving advice on 'making' monsters from the descriptions in the adventure).

Just an idea.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Perkins 88 wrote:
EN World wrote:
WotC will publish one Player's Handbook, one DM Guide and one Monster Manual every year.
Yet another reason to NEVER buy 4th edition...

Is this for each campaign setting?

So, if I play Forgotten Realms (or Eberron), will I need 2 PHBs, 2 DMGs, and 2 MMs to play or will the 2008 purchase be moot and the 2009 purchase be the valid purchase?

I could see a PHB (Player's Guide to Faerun), DMG (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting), and MM (Monstrous Compendium) be what they are meaning. This makes sense. But is this what is meant, or are we dealing with redundancy between PHBs/DMGs/MMs?

Where can I read more ... or is this just filtering rumor at this hour?


Saurstalk wrote:


So, if I play Forgotten Realms (or Eberron), will I need 2 PHBs, 2 DMGs, and 2 MMs to play or will the 2008 purchase be moot and the 2009 purchase be the valid purchase?

I could see a PHB (Player's Guide to Faerun), DMG (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting), and MM (Monstrous Compendium) be what they are meaning. This makes sense. But is this what is meant, or are we dealing with redundancy between PHBs/DMGs/MMs?

Where can I read more ... or is this just filtering rumor at this hour?

Each book will present new options and rules. You'll still only need the PHB, DMG and MM to play but, if you want more core options for races, classes, monsters or DM Options, will want to pick up the yearly supplements (and, of course, subscribe to their digital initiative).

I really hope they get burned on this because D&D needs to be sold off by Hasbro!

PS: To make things worse, they'll also be releasing one campaign setting each year.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
DM Jeff wrote:

By the way, when it all comes down to it, I sure hope a lot of you put your money where your mouth is and ante up when the time comes to reallly support any 3.5 material. I certainly WILL, and CAN. But I can only imagine Paizo's fearing a "Serenity" backlash:

Browncoats convinced Joss Whedon that Serenity would make more money than Star Wars and he begged them to please get others to watch it to make it #1 and to STAY there. And they utterly, utterly failed him. They spoke big for 2-3 YEARS then went and sat in a corner when they were needed most.

My game groups are all of the 3.5 variety and I have folks who are serious. We haven't even had the chance to use 75% of our current material which is still exciting and fresh and more importantly FUN to us. In fact we can't WAIT to see all the cool stuff we have in play!

So if you're gonna stick, make sure you're not blowing smoke to give Paizo an uninformed decision. Oh, and for whoever may remind me "we don't know anything about 4E yet", I've ALREADY heared ENOUGH! :-)

-DM Jeff

In all fairness to your example, Serenity (when all was said and done) was in the black. So much so that Universal released a special edition of the movie and is investigating if a sequal is worth the investment.

Serenity had a budget of $40 Million dollars and made $25 Million theatrically (domestic) + 13 Million (foreign). Granted it probably made back the rest of it's money on DVD sales (hence the Special Edition DVD, because even though people gripe and moan about double dipping it's been shown time and time again that consumers will do it) Serenity is by no means an example of a box-office success.

It was a miracle that the movie was allowed to be made but, rumors aside I don't think that Universal will be making that same mistake twice...

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Perkins 88 wrote:
To make things worse, they'll also be releasing one campaign setting each year.

I wonder how many online-only rules and supplements will be used when developing the revised campaign settings? That would certainly "encourage" people to buy into the DI.


Aberzombie wrote:


I wonder how many online-only rules and supplements will be used when developing the revised campaign settings? That would certainly "encourage" people to buy into the DI.

It encourages me to never buy 4th edition... and I've bought EVERY edition of D&D since 1981. It really bums me out that I'm ditching the game but I really feel like Wizards is doing its customers a HUGE disservice in their handling of the D&D brand.

Andoran

I have one major concern. I expressed this back when Shackled City came out, and I think it is more of a concern today. I haven't run through any of the APs yet. I started a Shackled City, but we didn't get very far. Is there anybody who has run through them all?

In a few more months I'll have 4 complete APs and a host of other adventures that I have yet to run. If I started trying to run through them all right now, if each averages 6 months, I'll never get any closer to finishing them off.

Now, I've been willing to buy them because they've been fun to read, I like supporting game companies that try hard, and I like having a large stable of adventures from which to pull NPCs, traps, entire adventures, etc.

But my question to the rest of the Paizonians is how much is too much? When the 15th AP is coming out, do you think you'll still be here buying it? Or will you stop after the third comes out and you're not anywhere close to finishing the first?


I liked Serenity. I got my copy sitting right on top of my Firefly Box set right now. And I just bought U1 last week. Seems DCC is not going to be put out by Goodman Games any longer so GameMastery doesn't have to compete with them for my gaming dollars now, either.

What is your source for this information? Did Goodman games issue a statement that they will no longer be producing DCC material?

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

They said that DCC #52 will be the last DCC published in 3.5.

DitheringFool wrote on the Goodman Games Forums:

DitheringFool wrote:

The new Game Trade Magazine (no free dice this month, darn it!), comes a little blurb describing Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classic #52, due in December. " Also of note, this is the last d20 3.5 Dungeon Crawl Classic to be published".


Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:

They said that DCC #52 will be the last DCC published in 3.5.

DitheringFool wrote on the Goodman Games Forums:

DitheringFool wrote:

The new Game Trade Magazine (no free dice this month, darn it!), comes a little blurb describing Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classic #52, due in December. " Also of note, this is the last d20 3.5 Dungeon Crawl Classic to be published".

Thanks for citing the source. I guess number 52 will be the last DCC I purchase.

Please Paizo, hold the line and stick with 3.5 or 3.75.

Taldor Contributor

Since Goodman supports multiple systems, I bet they will still produce some 3.5 stuff, even if their main focus becomes 4E.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Serenity had a budget of $40 Million dollars and made $25 Million theatrically (domestic) + 13 Million (foreign). Granted it probably made back the rest of it's money on DVD sales (hence the Special Edition DVD, because even though people gripe and moan about double dipping it's been shown time and time again that consumers will do it) Serenity is by no means an example of a box-office success.

It was a miracle that the movie was allowed to be made but, rumors aside I don't think that Universal will be making that same mistake twice...

I was including the DVD sales. But last I heard from The Signal (Serenity/Firefly podcast), the SEDVD was Universal's way of testing the waters for a sequal.

Cheliax

DeadDMWalking wrote:
I have one major concern. I expressed this back when Shackled City came out, and I think it is more of a concern today. I haven't run through any of the APs yet. I started a Shackled City, but we didn't get very far. Is there anybody who has run through them all?

I DM-ed the whole SCAP, and I'm gonna finish the AoWAP in about a month. Probably won't run STAP right after that, as my players are quite hyped about Pathfinder and they expressed a desire for a shorter campaign - high level play often slows down too much.

DeadDMWalking wrote:

In a few more months I'll have 4 complete APs and a host of other adventures that I have yet to run. If I started trying to run through them all right now, if each averages 6 months, I'll never get any closer to finishing them off.

Now, I've been willing to buy them because they've been fun to read, I like supporting game companies that try hard, and I like having a large stable of adventures from which to pull NPCs, traps, entire adventures, etc.

But my question to the rest of the Paizonians is how much is too much? When the 15th AP is coming out, do you think you'll still be here buying it? Or will you stop after the third comes out and you're not anywhere close to finishing the first?

For me, the answers are right before the questions you ask.

I have a full time job, very often I have to work overtime, and while my GF is a gamer too, we like to share some time together doing something else than just playing RPGs.

So, it all comes down to three points.
- I want to support the companies that churn out quality stuff.
- I like to read them, for fun, interest and inspiration.
- I like the idea of stockpiling adventures and resources, as a deep (almost bottomless) pit of inspiration is an invaluable treasure for any DM who has experienced the writer's block at least once.


Just to pile on to the nearly 1000 posts already. I'm 36 and have come to grips with the fact that I am not part of the "new" generation, I am part of MY generation. If I want something to mimic a video game, I'll buy a video game. I didn't see 3.5 as so much of an improvement that it justified the money grab, so for me 4.0 is a no go just on principle. For my money, yep, my money, the Paizo products have been superior to the brand for some time now. I have no need of a 4th Ed., 3.x does everything I want to do. Just like I have no need for 10 million supplements, each w/ a new, duplicative, wholly unimaginative, didn't need it in the first place collection of prestige classes to milk even more of my money! I'll take a monthly installment of the Demonomicon of Iggwilve over 15 volumes of fiendish codexes any and every day!

Finally, personally, Erik, you preserved, w/ some help for sure, my favorite campaign setting and supported it, the original GH. So, do what you do. 4.0 holds no love for me. I'll buy 3.x back orders like STAP and SCAP and between this, back issues I have or have/will order and stuff I can *gasp* make up myself, I will never run out of materials or need to convert a darn thing. I'm good. If you continue to make good 3.X stuff that works for me, I'll go for that too!

PS: I don't have an I-phone either - CUZ I DON'T NEED ONE!

Okay, I've officially become a grumpy old man......

Qadira

Blueberry wrote:
I'm 36 and have come to grips with the fact that I am not part of the "new" generation, I am part of MY generation. If I want something to mimic a video game, I'll buy a video game.

I'm nearly 40 (less than one month of 30s left) and I do want a game that moves faster.

One thing I do not understand is the quickly forming notion that 4E = video game.

I have read nearly everything I can get my hands on about 4E and I do not see it. It is still a table top rpg. It still has dice, character sheets, and books.

Sure, it has a virtual table top for those that want it but you never need to use it.

Oh, and I do own an iPhone because it ROCKS!

I guess I'm not a grumpy old man just yet.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM Jeff wrote:

By the way, when it all comes down to it, I sure hope a lot of you put your money where your mouth is and ante up when the time comes to reallly support any 3.5 material. I certainly WILL, and CAN. But I can only imagine Paizo's fearing a "Serenity" backlash:

Having read Erik Mona's posts on EN World, it seems it's not a matter of *if* Paizo is switching - just a matter of when. He's quite pro-4E in those posts.

Now, granted, if 4E turns out to be the piling heap 'o crap that it seems to me it might be, then Paizo would undoubtedly re-evaluate. But most-likely, it will be a system that's adequate enough for Paizo to tell the stories they want to tell, and they will therefore switch. (Be it 2008 or 2009.)

I'm at a point where I really win either way. If Paizo goes 4E, I can put the money I'd otherwise have given Paizo toward other things. If Paizo stays 3.5, I'll continue to have a source of great stuff for the game I intend to play for at least another 10 years - and I'll gladly continue to buy.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
DaveMage wrote:
I'm at a point where I really win either way. If Paizo goes 4E, I can put the money I'd otherwise have given Paizo toward other things. If Paizo stays 3.5, I'll continue to have a source of great stuff for the game I intend to play for at least another 10 years - and I'll gladly continue to buy.

This is right where I'm at. I've gone from "well, I might buy some of the 4e books, eventually" to deciding that I have no intent to buy any further D&D products from WotC when 4e hits print. I admit that I may be in the minority. I also realize that this may actually be what (they think) the brand needs to get younger kids playing. However, I'm at the point that I don't want to switch, or make the investment in a new system. I'll happily continue to support Paizo, or any other quality publisher, with 3.X, however.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

4E Scoop from ENWorld - There isn't going to be an equivilent of d20 licence. There will just be Official D&D (and foreign language licenced and similar) and OGL.


The Real Troll wrote:


What is your source for this information? Did Goodman games issue a statement that they will no longer be producing DCC material?

Game Trade Magazine describes DCC#52 (due in december) as the last 3.5 DCC to be published.


Rambling Scribe wrote:
Since Goodman supports multiple systems, I bet they will still produce some 3.5 stuff, even if their main focus becomes 4E.

Goodman Games has said they will still be doing 1e and C&C modules. =)


Hello,

It may be only 1 subscription, but like Fake Healer commented near the beginning of this thread I appreciate that you look for input from your peers, subscribers, and us many who share a love for a game...therefore, throwing my voice into the mix.

I'd intended to stop my subscription when Paizo moved to 4.0, but if Pathfinder continues as 3.5 then my subscription will continue. That's not a threat of any sort ("HARUMPH! I'm pulling my subscription because I'm a stubborn bugger blah blah blah..."). I Just don't need it, my group's happy with 3.5, and our buying would drop off dramatically once 3.5 products stop being published. We skipped 3.0 completely, so I could see that happening with 4.0 too.

J-

PS. Thanks for keeping us in the loop; truly appreciated. And thanks for the fine work & quality products thus far.


DeadDMWalking wrote:
But my question to the rest of the Paizonians is how much is too much? When the 15th AP is coming out, do you think you'll still be here buying it? Or will you stop after the third comes out and you're not anywhere close to finishing the first?

If Paizo is still helmed by the folks producing the content now and they make it (v3.5 or v.Paizo), then I will buy it.

(If it passes onto my children to actually play all of the Adventure Paths when I am gone, then that is the way it will be. At least I'll get to read them all!)


Let me begin by admitting I'm not a huge fan of 3.x - it seems with each new edition of the game, WoTC/Hasbro takes two steps forwards, one step sideways, and 1-3 back. They made a lot of good changes in both versions. They made a lot of "scratch my head and give them a puzzled look" changes. Them made several dumb changes.
4.0 looks to be more of the same.

I'm interested in seeing what 4.0 looks like. I may even play it.
I'm interested in seeing what Paizo and other publishers do, both with 4.0 and whatever remains of 3.0.

My advice is: Stick with 3.5 until you see the way the market goes with 4.0; if it takes off and keeps a high rate of return, either switch entirely or split your efforts between the two. If not, you'll have plenty of material to fall back on and the opportunity to give Hasbro/WoTC smug looks. I'd also recommend going systemless as much as possible, but using 3.x stats where you must instead of leaving blanks or using "generic" terms.

And for those saying it doesn't pay to go with multiple systems...

Back in the "early days" of gaming, each genre had its own system, some completely different some similar. I still play a large number of systems because they handle some aspects better in some genres:
Call of Cthulhu has one of my all-time favorite skill systems.
Chill had one of the best internal horror/fear mechanics
d20 is great for Cinematic serial-type games, especially with some tweaking to the mechanics (though I still have a strong love for Star Wars D6 for this too, d20 handles much of the "tricks" of this genre better).
For dungeon crawls and standard fantasy type games, my engine of choice is HackMaster.
For Western Games, the ONLY system is Aces & Eights...
For EVERYTHING else, I prefer the HERO system.

A true gamer won't stick to one system alone because NO ONE SYSTEM can do everything. Period.
Splitting your efforts between 3.x and 4.0 is probably a better option than discarding 3.x or ignoring 4.0 could ever be...

Osirion RPG Superstar 2013

I think most of us should remember that the powers in charge of dnd have never really messed up. Opinions may differ about how much better the game is now, but i think that 3.5 is a necessary improvement over 3.0, and 3.0 didn't just save dnd, it saved the whole damn hobby. Might have killed or mortally wounded a few rival companies at the same time, but whatever. We went from empty offices and no projects being planned to the best and most rewarding way to spend time with friends there is (again, for me). WotC deserves our trust.

As Erik said originally, Hasbro's research and future planning and infrastructure requires huge profits, but they also are addressing the issue with huge resources. While i definitely fear the 'videogamization' of my beloved game, they haven't mis-stepped with dnd thus far. You can't fault them for wanting to structure the future game around selling itself to more customers: we are bad about recruiting more customers to the game. I continue to hope that 4e will meet those needs and preserve the game I love in an exciting way.

If it is not the same game at heart, I will support any company that continues 3.5, even if that means retooling the system somewhat to maintain the right to publish it. and I strongly support the idea that in either system, Paizo should aggressively pursue the license for Greyhawk fiction and gaming supplements. I have read the comments in dragon or baur's KQ and it is clear that Mr. Mona will please GH and DnD fans with either system.

Maybe you can pitch GH as a place where 3.5 continues on for another year or so while the fan base of the game checks out 4.0 and responds to it. You can market it as 3.5 for one more year and gain the loyalty of all those who are hedging their bets. As Paizo moves into its 4th AP, the change to 4.0 occurs (prompting a second wave of mass purchases for WotC) and GH naturally remains a setting for Paizo to showcase its non-pathfinder 4.0 adventures.

Paizo has a lot of 'where paizo goes, i go' support because of its quality publications and accessible staff. If Hasbro creates a game that is dumbed down or resembles a video game with dice, Paizo will be the direct beneficiaries.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ancientsensei wrote:
I think most of us should remember that the powers in charge of dnd have never really messed up.

Oh?

See how well Dreamblade is doing these days....


DeadDMWalking wrote:
But my question to the rest of the Paizonians is how much is too much? When the 15th AP is coming out, do you think you'll still be here buying it? Or will you stop after the third comes out and you're not anywhere close to finishing the first?

Speaking for myself, I don't think there is such a thing as "too much".

Since 1E, I've been consistently more interested in modules and adventures than rules/splat books.

And I buy them as much for the readability factor as the playablility factor. If I enjoy reading a module, even if I never play it, I consider it money well-spent.

The three AP's (and Pathfinder thus far) have kept me consistently engrossed every month, and that is high praise indeed, and all I can ask for.

To keep this thread still semi on-track, I'm [still] in favor of keeping Pathfinder 3.5 9or perhaps a 3.75, if Paizo pushes that directon.)


Koldoon wrote:


As a freelancer I will have to convert if most 3rd party publishers do. Dragon and Dungeon remain the place to be recognized in the industry, and so my hope for continued work pretty much relies on me following WotC.

Unfortunately, I have a feeling that WotC/Hasbro has seriously overestimated the population base of the folks who will buy into (literally) this new revenue stream model they are pushing. $10/month for a game which delivers *every day* (if you choose to play--not that I play MMORPG) vs. $10/month for articles that dribble out? It really comes down to disposable income, and old grognards like me have the $$ to spend on hardcover books and spurious purchases, so the move so smaller costs spread out over a longer period may be OK conceptually. I'm just not convinced WotC did a proper analysis of the situation. They certainly didn't seem to be asking the community that was buying their product what they thought and secrecy surrounding the run-up to the 4E announcement bodes ill. So, I guess, my point here is that I'm not sure Dragon & Dungeon are going to the the exposure vehicle they once were, especially hidden behind a wall of subscription, and given the misgivings folks seem to have regarding the quality of the materials released via DI thus far...but of course, I could be wrong.

Osirion

I'm just not convinced WotC did a proper analysis of the situation. They certainly didn't seem to be asking the community that was buying their product what they thought and secrecy surrounding the run-up to the 4E announcement bodes ill. So, I guess, my point here is that I'm not sure Dragon & Dungeon are going to the the exposure vehicle they once were, especially hidden behind a wall of subscription, and given the misgivings folks seem to have regarding the quality of the materials released via DI thus far...but of course, I could be wrong.

im with ya here . to me the mags are dead, sad fact. 4e is not getting the exposer it could have got i think pulling the mags was an ill timed mistake. should have used them much like they where used for 3e.

for myself i do not call what they have now a mag its the same junk they gave away for free b4 and spreading it out like that dosn't help.i would gladlly pay 8 bucks for a dead tree mag i will not pay 10 for one i must then print off myself. ill thought out thats my 2 copper

Cheliax

DaveMage wrote:
ancientsensei wrote:
I think most of us should remember that the powers in charge of dnd have never really messed up.

Oh?

See how well Dreamblade is doing these days....

You also have to remember that the WotC of early 3.0 or even 3.5 isn't the WotC of today. A lot of people have left the company since then, and it seems that the way they approach their customers and products has changed drastically. It seems they used to try to make products their customers would like, the customers bought the products, and everyone was happy. Now they seem to have the attitude that their customers are sheep that will buy whatever they set before their eyes, so they can do what they will with D&D, and we will still buy it no matter how sorry it is.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:


i think pulling the mags was an ill timed mistake.

I suspect you're right - though we're viewing this from a "PR/Current market" standpoint and they're looking at a "bottom line" one...

The best bet from outside seems to have been: Either
1) Pull the licenses back and publish their own "hybrid" magazine (mixing elements of Dungeon and Dragon into one, probably bi-monthly, publication), full of links to webcontent (a local free newspaper uses this model with great success - the "meat" of the story sees print, but supporting information and even commentary - as well as content edited out for space reasons - goes up on the website) - make it something that anyone can use, but without the online subscription you're only getting half the picture or
2) Diminish the license - "force" Paizo (or whomever they chose to work with) to publish one single magazine, serving primarily as a press-release and teaser and advertising vehicle, progressively watered down until they no longer need any type of buzz, then kill it.
Instead they just cut the cord, which, frankly, hurt the industry more than the "d20 glut" AFAICT. Exactly one company - the publishers of Knights of the Dinner Table has profited from the death of both mags so far, though Hasbro/WOTC has likely seen some "cost reductions".
I know a few freelancers who took regular jobs and left the gaming industry when they heard the announced end of the magazines!

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
i think pulling the mags was an ill timed mistake.

That's putting it lightly. In short, WotC keeps making PR blunder after another. Get rid of what were easily the two most popular magazines in the industry. They had established readers, name recognition, and respect. That doesn't happen overnight. They traded it for an online publication that had name recognition. They got rid of 2 important aspects in one foul swoop. Now they have to earn respect back as well as win over established readers.

If they rolled out the online stuff in pieces: "We now have online tools for 3.5. Read all about it in Dragon," a year later, "We have 4E coming out. Read exclusive previews on the online site," and a year later, "Our online site is so popular, we're working with Paizo and offering PDF download of their Dungeon and Dragon Magazines on our online site," and finally a year later, "Readership of online Dungeon and Dragon Magazines are so great, we're going to exclusively offer them to you online."

Really, if they did that, no single piece would be that hard a pill to swallow, and they'd probably get a larger audiance in the process. Instead they force feed it to the community and give it to us as a "Take it or leave it," option. I say to heck with them. If they're going to dictate how I am going to have my fun, to heck with them.

I remember a financial analyst once saying, "If you want to see the health of a company today, look at their revenue, profit margins, market share, etc. If you want to see the health of a company tomorrow, look at their customer service. You can only piss off your customers for so long before they go elsewhere." In short, I'm going elsewhere.

Cheliax

Well spoken. I think you speak for a lot of us.

Osirion

Chris Perkins 88 wrote:
EN World wrote:
WotC will publish one Player's Handbook, one DM Guide and one Monster Manual every year.
Yet another reason to NEVER buy 4th edition...

I think that's the nail in the coffin for me. Less is more. Every 3 years or longer would be better. Every year? If that was ALL they produced: 3 books a year, then ok, maybe. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Monthly release is the model they had with 3E. I am sure thats going to continue.

Osirion

ShadowDenizen wrote:


Speaking for myself, I don't think there is such a thing as "too much".
Since 1E, I've been consistently more interested in modules and adventures than rules/splat books.

I think thats been WoTC's problem from the get-go. Too much rules options and not enough adventure. The business model says "only the DM buys adventures, but everyone buys expansion books". What that model misses is the indirect effect of adventures: The get people to the game table in the first place.

No Adventure = No Game = Nobody Buying Expansions.

I think thats why Dungeon Magazine was such a success, and in the Hands of Paizo an even better success.

Consider the AP's: I like one-shots as well, but AP's bring back the old days of ToEE, Against the Giants, Scourge of the Slavelords, etc. The super-module era. Those were good times. APs are good because you want to FINISH them. Hard to stop playing halfway through STAP.

When it comes to adventures WoTC should remember:

"If you write them, they will Play" (and buy)

Cheliax

WotC actually started to learn that the past few years. They produced a lot of modules (some of them of pretty good size) last year and earlier this year. In fact, that's probably one more reason they got rid of Dungeon. Dungeon's aventures were competing with WotC's modules and were a much better value. This was an easy way to get rid of competition.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
[...] especially hidden behind a wall of subscription

Exactly. As Glenn Reynolds often points out, subscriptions to online magazines and newspapers are not passports to an exclusive club, they're the keys to an isolated ghetto. The New York Times tried subscription access with its TimesSelect service and it was a financial disaster. The NYT closed it within two years. Same thing will happen to the DI.

These days open social networks are far more valuable than closed little community ghettos. Even Facebook, a far more successful company than WotC, understood this and opened itself up.


Stedd Grimwold wrote:


I think thats been WoTC's problem from the get-go. Too much rules options and not enough adventure. The business model says "only the DM buys adventures, but everyone buys expansion books".

Well, Modules are usually a loss leader or loss item; they fall more under "advertising" than "product" (a lesson I was taught when I wrote one back in the 80s)

Stedd Grimwold wrote:
What that model misses is the indirect effect of adventures: The get people to the game table in the first place.

Exactly - witness the relative success of, say, Goodman Games - until very recently the only thing they had were modules...

They're a tiny company, but they're making a go with a "loss" item because they're filling a void...

Stedd Grimwold wrote:
Consider the AP's: I like one-shots as well, but AP's bring back the old days of ToEE, Against the Giants, Scourge of the Slavelords, etc. The super-module era. Those were good times.

Definitely - and much better handled, even if far less slick, then the recent "Expedition to..." modules


Krypter wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
[...] especially hidden behind a wall of subscription

Exactly. As Glenn Reynolds often points out, subscriptions to online magazines and newspapers are not passports to an exclusive club, they're the keys to an isolated ghetto. The New York Times tried subscription access with its TimesSelect service and it was a financial disaster. The NYT closed it within two years. Same thing will happen to the DI.

These days open social networks are far more valuable than closed little community ghettos. Even Facebook, a far more successful company than WotC, understood this and opened itself up.

Actually, *I* wrote that. "SeekerofShadowlight" broke the quoting. See the post immediately prior.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

CEBrown wrote:


Definitely - and much better handled, even if far less slick, then the recent "Expedition to..." modules

Except "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk".

That one was incredible.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:
CEBrown wrote:


Definitely - and much better handled, even if far less slick, then the recent "Expedition to..." modules

Except "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk".

That one was incredible.

Well, yeah, that goes without saying!

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