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Good post, Luke, and dead on. One thing to add is that while Paizo wasn't at fault with the lose of Dragon and Dungeon, they worked especially hard at applying balm to the wound and they tried to answer every question or concern that was posted on the messageboards. The first few days after the announcement I don't know how anyone at Paizo got any work done, it seemed like every 3rd post to the boards was by one of the Paizian Workers trying to allay our fears and concerns. If Wizards had applied even 10-15% of what Paizo did with that type of customer service this whole debacle wouldn't be in the state is in.
Paizo said "We are working to make you, the consumer, happy within your hobby."
Wizards is saying "We have no care for your, the consumer's, concerns. You will buy into whatever we decide is good for our company to do if you want to play D&D."
IMO of course.
FH
What do we have? Only this: http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e
Maybe it doesn't delve into specifics too much, but did we know this much about 3E two months after the announcement?
Honestly, I don't believe we have more information than we did for the 3E release and if we do most of what we do have is fairly useless (in my opinion).
I dug into the Wayback Machine to figure out the answer to this. I couldn't remember the URL of Eric Noah's News site, but I found an archive of his news items.
Here's a link to a Wayback Machine archive of a 2002 ENWorld archive of 1999-2000 news posts from 'Eric Noah's Unofficial Dungeons & Dragons 3e News Page' (whew!).
There are a couple of benchmarks for comparison. I can't cite time-from-announcement, because I don't know when 3e was announced.
If we compare October 1999 with October 2007, we are doing okay. The information was still very piecemeal back then.
But D&D 3e is being released in August 2000, not May. If we look at time-from-release and compare the information available today, 7 months prior to the release of 4e, with what was available in January 2000, 7 months prior to 3e's release, we're way behind the curve.
Now that's some detailed knowledge of the soon-to-be-published game. It's got saving throw tables, Domain spell lists, the XP/Leveling-up table (with feats and ability score advancement), stats for familiars, and on and on and on.
But all of that came out at Winter Fantasy, where people got to try out 3e for the first time. The information available in December 1999, prior to Winter Fantasy, was much less specific. Better than today, but not that detailed.
So we'll get our real previews in the December teaser books, and the details of the 4e system will be leaked from those attending D&D Experience, aka Winter Fantasy. It seems like the only real difference will be the timing of the actual book release - in May rather than August, done to facilitate things at Gen Con. And that is a good thing. The worst part of the 3e rollout was the spring of 2000, when we pretty much knew what the rules were like, but we couldn't quite play yet.
All in all, though I started this research/post to refute your assertion, at the end of it I'm willing to cut WOTC a little more slack, and be a bit more patient with the 4e teasers. (Although I'd still really appreciate it if the little brother or sister of one of the playtesters would just scan the darn playtest rules and post them on the internet. C'mon you know you want to. And WOTC might silently thank you for it (while crucifying you publicly). I mean, think of the buzz it would generate. It worked for Harry Potter, didn't it? :)
OK who crashed the D&D home page at WotC. Or am I the only one who cannot get on the D&D homepage over there?
We know you Paizonians are all just haters like that.
So, it seems that the general consensus of a successful business model is NOT:
1)Underpants
2)Be snarky and talk down to your customers about why the new version of your product is so great and they're stupid for liking the old one at all anymore.
3)ProfitGood to know! ;)
Profit is an important part of the succesful business model. Alienating current customers for merely bigger profits requires lots of good PR to work though.
Paizo can't help being good at dealing with the public - they have Cosmo!
Cosmo emits narcotic pheromones.
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Cosmo emits narcotic pheromones.
That would not surprise me in the least. The one occasion I've had to call for customer service left me with a warm, fuzzy feeling...and then I wanted a snack. ;)
PS with Hasbro now firmly at the helm of WotC, do you think that we'll see that long joked about edition of My Little Pony D20? Personally, I'm holding out for Transformers D20 or Mr Potatohead D20. :)
Cosmo emits narcotic pheromones.That would not surprise me in the least. The one occasion I've had to call for customer service left me with a warm, fuzzy feeling...and then I wanted a snack. ;)
PS with Hasbro now firmly at the helm of WotC, do you think that we'll see that long joked about edition of My Little Pony D20? Personally, I'm holding out for Transformers D20 or Mr Potatohead D20. :)
I doubt it. It'll be 4DVENTURE system now!
PS with Hasbro now firmly at the helm of WotC, do you think that we'll see that long joked about edition of My Little Pony D20? Personally, I'm holding out for Transformers D20 or Mr Potatohead D20. :)
Actually, I kind of hope they do come out with that My Little Pony D20. When I told my wife about it, my daughters heard us talking and got really excited about playing as their little ponies. Boy was it tough to explain to them that it was just a joke . . . .
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PS with Hasbro now firmly at the helm of WotC, do you think that we'll see that long joked about edition of My Little Pony D20? Personally, I'm holding out for Transformers D20 or Mr Potatohead D20. :)
Why not both? Note that the manufacturer is Hasbro!
It'll be 4DVENTURE system now!4DVENTURE
FOUR-DVENTURE
FOR-DVENTURE
There is something wrong here
I was really hoping they meant "4D Venture" and that they'd develop a product that would let distant gaming groups bend space and time to carve out a little extradimensional space where they could get together and play face to face. Or at least let me sleep in a few hours on Mondays and still make it to work on time.
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Hey Sebastian. Nice post over on the Wizard's boards; it generated a lot of good discussion (at least before it degenerated into a sixth-grade math word-problem), and I was glad to see Wolfgang posting over there. In case you don't pick it up over there (and I wouldn't blame you for not go back--the carcass is starting to smell), here is my contribution to the discussion...
------------------------------------------
At what point did this post degenerate into an economics lesson?
JD Sigma wrote a pretty inflammatory rant, especially in attacking Kim Mohan's credentials. But the points he makes are valid.
The contrast between Paizo and Wizard's couldn't be more clear than on the boards. Over there, the editors, writers, and contributors make time to respond to customers. Over here, no way.
And, I don't buy the whole small company vs. big company argument as an explanation or excuse. Paizo could very well adopt a corporate culture that ignores it's customers on the boards, but it has chosen not to. The editors at Paizo are no less busy than the ones at Wizards, yet they take the time to post--a lot.
For a little more than a decade, the internet has made it possible for the producers of products and their customers to communicate in ways that were simply not as easy or practical or immediate as before. Paizo has taken full advantage of the internet in this regard. Wizard's--for as much as they say they are--has not.
Way to GOOOOOOO Sebastian.
Only read your post a few hours ago.
Bit late, but my compliments nevertheless.
your the local paizo-board hero.
Yay to Sebastian. I just read your open letter, and I must say, it was excellent.
The only thing I worry about is that the slightly snarky tone might be one reason it is being ignored and not getting any official response. (I skimmed through the 7 pages of responses, but didn't see anyone official, anyway). The snark is well earned, though, and justified IMHO.
If WOTC can start demonstrating that they are able to maintain an "online presence" with at least half of the competence that Paizo has shown, I'd seriously like to see it.
If WOTC is trumpeting that they can communicate with the customer better than Paizo did, because their product is completely online, let's see some communication! So far it's just been unidirectional, and all of the emails and posts may as well have been sent through a corrupt, lazy, and imaginary postal system.
I haven't seen any proof backing up their claims yet.
Has anyone here?
Any posts from anyone official with any details on how anything will be handled better (as they claim)?
Only response from WotC was when I sent them an email. One part was about D&D gameday coming up and the other had to do with a business inquiry. They called me about the business information/oppurtunity I was asking about and have yet to respond (even by email) to the enquiry as a player/fan. Looks like I know what is more important.
So we'll be getting a d20 game that lets us play cars that morph into giant anthropomorphic vegetables? Hey, who won't love that?
Carnivores.
Evilturnip, read the thread further, Chris Thomasson directly responded to the thread that Sebastian started. I don't frequent the WoTC that often because I can't keep up with the sheer volume of threads and posts, but I have seen posts by Chris and other WoTC staffers on various threads throughout the D&D boards.
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I just want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Sebastion. Although his tone was a bit snarky, he expressed how many of us feel. The editorial was really condescending. We know that the reason that the magzines were converted to an online format is because they are cheaper to produce and are used as a reason to get people to subscribe to the DI. Of course, that fact that it eliminates their chief competition in selling published adventures was also an added benefit. We all know that reason that the new format is "better" is because it has the potential to create more profit for them. We also know that any statement claiming it was for our benefit or so it can reach more fans is a bold-faced lie. It is a completely ridiculous statement. It in no way benefits me to pay more ($10-15 a month versus about $90 a year) for a product with inferior quality and portablility. What Sebastion had to say needed to be said even if it was doomed to be ignored by WotC staff.
It in no way benefits me to pay more ($10-15 a month versus about $90 a year) for a product with inferior quality and portablility...
It's potentially far worse than that.
For those that choose to do so (as many will), printing most/all of an issue of Dungeon or Dragon on printers will cost almost as much as the old newstand price -- and considerably more than the old subscription price.
That doesn't even factor in the DI's subscription price -- which, I believe, will be higher than the old newstand price.
The fact is, no evidence nor credible claim has been offered suggesting that the DI promises value anywhere near that of previous issues (of any era).
Forgive me if I'm engaging in more WotC-bashing. I'm trying hard to be good :)
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You're right. I didn't even factor in the cost of ink or toner cartridges. We all know those things aren't cheap, and you will go through them surprisingly fast if you print all of the mags. Even taking them to Kinkos to be printed and bundled won't be cheap. The situation was bad enough without even going into this aspect of it.
You're right. I didn't even factor in the cost of ink or toner cartridges. We all know those things aren't cheap, and you will go through them surprisingly fast if you print all of the mags. Even taking them to Kinkos to be printed and bundled won't be cheap. The situation was bad enough without even going into this aspect of it.
A friend of mine suggested last night that I could upgrade to 4.0 for free, because the books would be available in the 4.0 SRD, and I pointed out the cost of printing being kind of self-defeating...
although I am definitely going to look into how much it would cost to just download them to my laptop. If that's cheaper, I'm going that direction rather than paying $75 for the books.
A friend of mine suggested last night that I could upgrade to 4.0 for free, because the books would be available in the 4.0 SRD, and I pointed out the cost of printing being kind of self-defeating...although I am definitely going to look into how much it would cost to just download them to my laptop. If that's cheaper, I'm going that direction rather than paying $75 for the books.
And the SRD is not the whole beast (at least with 3.x). Some parts, like the experience table, are not part of the SRD.
Stefan
That doesn't even factor in the DI's subscription price -- which, I believe, will be higher than the old newstand price.
DO you have any evidence you base this on? Or are you just guessing that it will cost more? AFAIK, nothing has been said about the cost.
Stefan
That doesn't even factor in the DI's subscription price -- which, I believe, will be higher than the old newstand price.
DO you have any evidence you base this on? Or are you just guessing that it will cost more? AFAIK, nothing has been said about the cost.
I think WotC themselves speculated (online) that the monthly price would be on the order of $15. That might be completely wrong, and I don't remember where I got this "information."
If I'm way off, apologies to all.
The last I heard it was around $10/month, which included a subscription to both magazines and access to the e-tools.
However, looking at the crappy quality of the pdf articles (no margins, divided pictures, no watermarks or backgrounds, etc...), I think it clear that little thought was given to the quality of the new electronic format. In fact, I would hazard a guess that the attitude at Hasbro was "well, we already release online supplements, so this is really the same thing". Unfortunately, an online magazine does not consist of an unformatted HTML file.
I have no problem with the rest of the concerns raised here, but to be true I am a bit tired of seeing this one.
Please people read what they wrote . . . AT THE END OF THE MONTH they will format everything and compile it into a PDF. I am sure that it will be watermarked and pretty. The stuff we are seeing currently are articles that may or may not make the cut into the finalized and gathered PDF format.
So while you may be underwhelmed with, say, the quality of the articles thus far, please understand that it is highl LIKELY the finalized version, the ACTUAL ISSUE will be much prettier.
I appreciate that online and printed content are two different beasts, but as it stands now we're seeing a more polished work in progress- I don't need to see the final draft before it gets formatted. If I'm going to be convinced to lay down cash on this product in the future, WotC needs to being it's A game and get it right first time.
I wish WotC could take relieve my apprehensions- no luck so far.
Has WotC actually said there would be a consolidated pdf? If so, where and when, because I missed that announcement.
Thanks.
Has WotC actually said there would be a consolidated pdf? If so, where and when, because I missed that announcement.
Thanks.
They aren't doing it monthly yet. Apparently, Oct/Nov will be one PDF, then Dec/Jan will be the second PDF, etc until 4th actually comes out, then it will be 1 PDF a month.
The last I heard it was around $10/month, which included a subscription to both magazines and access to the e-tools.
Actually you're both right, they have said that it would cost about what a month subscription to an MMORPG costs, and further narrowed that to $10-$15 (though one of the Wizards folks was quoted as saying it would run $8-$12 somewhere during the initial madness of the announcements) I'd provide links but I'm in the middle of Nano, and need to get back to my writing.
- Ashavan
Has anyone heard any responses from WotC on the crappy formatting of some of their downloads? The Grazz't article was insulting. I wonder what JJ thinks about seeing his excellent work get unlovingly converted to a POS pdf.
I'll tell what would be good in an electronic product, especially one that uses the delve format for adventures, is to hyperlink the adventure text to the relevant delve page. Flipping back and forth with paper pages is annoying enough, but doing it with virtual pages is down-right aggrivating.
I'm getting carpal tunnel syndrome reading through the Lost Caverns.
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They aren't doing it monthly yet. Apparently, Oct/Nov will be one PDF, then Dec/Jan will be the second PDF, etc until 4th actually comes out, then it will be 1 PDF a month.Has WotC actually said there would be a consolidated pdf? If so, where and when, because I missed that announcement.
Thanks.
can you site a source for this? curious to read the rationale since this contradicts the spirit of what was originally going to be put out (a monthly consolidated "issue").
EDIT: I just found this confirmed in another thread. i call shenanigans on these DI bozos. 1st they said it would be a true preview of the new issues, consolidated monthly. Now its a preview minus formatting consolidated bi-monthly.
Before anyone points out that they'll format the consolidated file, I will point to Thomason's comment that
Dragon #364 and Dungeon #155 are currently scheduled to be our first all 4th Edition issues, with new layouts, more content, and all fully integrated with the new D&D Insider toolset. After those first 4th Edition issues, we'll resume a monthly schedule for both magazines.
What I read from that is that the current issues are NOT a representative example of what we will receive, and therefore of little actual value in judging whether or not the DI will be worth the pixels its displayed with.
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That doesn't even factor in the DI's subscription price -- which, I believe, will be higher than the old newstand price.DO you have any evidence you base this on? Or are you just guessing that it will cost more? AFAIK, nothing has been said about the cost.
Stefan
The have stated that the Subscription Fee will be about $10 - $15 a Month
Which Includes Dungeon & Dragon Magazine, D&D Game Table, D&D Character Creator, Dungeon Master's Toolkit.
So for that for the price of $120 - $180 a year
Compared to $76 Subscription fee for Subscribers of both mags in the states.
Is the extra $44 to $108 a Year worth it?... IMO Unknown.. But if they go the $15 a Month.. I think they will be overcharging
Does anyone know if the addresses the issue of subscription for those overseas?
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Kobold Press
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Man, I need to raise the Kobold Quarterly prices if WotC actually charges that $10 or $15 rate. KQ subscriptions are $36/year for print+PDF, or $16 per year for the PDF.
That's a lot more content, for a lot less money. At the WotC price, I should be charging, um, $60 for print + PDF, or $40 for the PDF. Wow.
Nah, they can charge whatever; I don't need to raise rates. Let people make up their own minds what's worthwhile.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Man, I need to raise the Kobold Quarterly prices if WotC actually charges that $10 or $15 rate. KQ subscriptions are $36/year for print+PDF, or $16 per year for the PDF.
That's a lot more content, for a lot less money. At the WotC price, I should be charging, um, $60 for print + PDF, or $40 for the PDF. Wow.
Nah, they can charge whatever; I don't need to raise rates. Let people make up their own minds what's worthwhile.
Based on what I've seen from WotC, I wouldn't pay more than about $2 or $3 bucks a month for their DI, *IF* I was interested in what they've got. I liked JJ's Grazzt article and Logue's Adventure, but the rest . . . no thanks. It really doesn't seem worth it. The visual presentation of the articles thus far has been god awful.
KQ OTOH, I would pay an increased rate if economics demanded. Far better material, quality, and value.
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Man, I need to raise the Kobold Quarterly prices if WotC actually charges that $10 or $15 rate. KQ subscriptions are $36/year for print+PDF, or $16 per year for the PDF.
That's a lot more content, for a lot less money. At the WotC price, I should be charging, um, $60 for print + PDF, or $40 for the PDF. Wow.
Nah, they can charge whatever; I don't need to raise rates. Let people make up their own minds what's worthwhile.
Hey, Wolfgang. Would you mind throwing a link my way to where I can check out KQ? I've heard good things about it, and if I subscribe to another gaming mag, yours would defintely be more worthy than WoTC's underwhelming DI.
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Kobold Press
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Hey, Wolfgang. Would you mind throwing a link my way to where I can check out KQ? I've heard good things about it, and if I subscribe to another gaming mag, yours would defintely be more worthy than WoTC's underwhelming DI.
Sure, you can pick up the single issues right here on the Paizo site. Issue #1, Issue #2.
Or you can go hog wild and subscribe at my site. There's a free preview of #2 available there as well. Well, ok, it's just the table of contents, but it has lots of names in it you might recognize.
BTW, who did the beautiful kobold on the front of KQ 1?
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Hey, Wolfgang. Would you mind throwing a link my way to where I can check out KQ? I've heard good things about it, and if I subscribe to another gaming mag, yours would defintely be more worthy than WoTC's underwhelming DI.Sure, you can pick up the single issues right here on the Paizo site. Issue #1, Issue #2.
Or you can go hog wild and subscribe at my site. There's a free preview of #2 available there as well. Well, ok, it's just the table of contents, but it has lots of names in it you might recognize.
After reading the reviews on the DI over at WotC, consider me signed up for KQ instead, right alongside having signed up with Paizo's GameMastery and Pathfinder lines...
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Sebastian, your willingness to say such rude and WRONG things to guy like Kim Mohan really makes you look foolish and immature.
You may disagree with Mr. Mohan's message or even the delivery thereof, but dumping such childish vituperation on someone you clearly are poorly informed about is something you should be ashamed of. It is unworthy of you, and it casts these boards in a poor light.
Next time, I suggest you wait until your anger has evaporated and you can ask your legitmate questions in a respectful manner. You will make a much more positive impression.
This conversation was over a month+ ago and throughout the discussion Sebastian had recognized the mistakes in his facts and made apologies for them. Next time, I suggest you read an entire thread, look at the dates involved and try to be more informed yourself.
He's a lawyer. He could sue me for libel or slander or whatever it is.
Yeah, and lawyers . . . know people. I don't want that kind of heat.
