Ecology of the Death Knight


4th Edition

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This article is up. What do you guys think?


it seemed like an odd subject for an ecology to me. I skimmed it, haven't read it in depth yet. I liked some of the "idea" suggestions at the back.

Scarab Sages

Meh. It was OK. I think it would have been more interesting if they'd given actual stats for a 4E death knight. I did like the idea they mentioned of emphasizing the "knight" part of it with special melee abilities.

I was happy to see that they mentioned Saint Kargoth, the original Death Knight. It was also nice to see mention of Vanthus Vanderboren.

Liberty's Edge

I thought the article was ok. It had some interesting stuff, although somehow I don't think of Halfling Deathknights...

I'll tell you what I DIDN'T like. Reading the first online Dragon article, I had exactly the reaction I feared I would have. I didn't feel like something from Dragon. It was just a scroll down and read it on the screen web article. It was no different than any of the other free web articles you could find on Wizard's web site. It was laid out like a typical free online article you would see on any web site. I realize that you are somewhat limited in how graphically creative you can be on a web site, but that's really my point. There is a special, tangible 'something' when you read a well written, well designed, well produced printed magazine.

Calling stuff like this Dragon is a joke. It's not an online magazine. It's an article on a web site. That's it. Just because you group them together and (eventually) charge me for it, that doesn't make it a magazine.

I guess I was underwhelmed.

Rest in Peace Dragon magazine


A webpage with articles is not a magazine, online or otherwise. Perhaps they should take a look at what Adobe Magazine can do. Even then it's not the same thing as a physical magazine held in your hands.

Give me back my Dragon and Dungeon, dammit.


I don't even feel like reading it... Just doesn't have the same cool feeling as getting a fresh copy of Dungeon or Dragon in my hands and opening it up.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Marc Radle 81 wrote:

Calling stuff like this Dragon is a joke. It's not an online magazine. It's an article on a web site. That's it. Just because you group them together and (eventually) charge me for it, that doesn't make it a magazine.

I guess I was underwhelmed.

Rest in Peace Dragon magazine

LONG LIVE THE KOBOLD!!!

I can't say it enough. If you miss a magazine for D&D-lovers by D&D-lovers, you must check this out.


DitheringFool wrote:
I can't say it enough. If you miss a magazine for D&D-lovers by D&D-lovers, you must check this out.

Looking better by the day, but I don't particularly care for interviews (with anybody) and that seems to be half the content. Am I wrong?

Liberty's Edge

We are going kind of off topic but, what the heck ...

I actually like reading a good interview, especially with someone in the industry. Who is interviewed in this issue? I need to get my hands on these issues - I hear nothing but great things about them.


The Last Rogue wrote:
This article is up. What do you guys think?

That I shouldn't have to sign up for D&DI to read a "free preview."


The Last Rogue wrote:
This article is up. What do you guys think?

A huge "Savage Tide" spoiler within, alas


Guys, they've updated the article and made that a Spoiler that you have to click on now. There are some advantages to the electronic format, including the ability to update it once it has been released and bibliographical hyperlinks.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Meh, i'd say. Certainly not the best Ecology of... article i've read, but neither a complete waste of bytes. The material seemed a little hastily thrown together, and could probably have germinated for a while longer - but there has been worse, much worse.

All in all, i don't regret paying what i paid (5 minutes of my time to register), but would not pay any more than that.


Disenchanter wrote:
That I shouldn't have to sign up for D&DI to read a "free preview."

You don't have to sign up for it. Or at least, not any more than you need to "sign up" to post on their forums, or these forums for that matter. If you already have a login for the WotC forums, you don't have to do anything, just sign in. I really don't see what the big issue is. It is still very much free.


Shroomy wrote:
Guys, they've updated the article and made that a Spoiler that you have to click on now. There are some advantages to the electronic format, including the ability to update it once it has been released and bibliographical hyperlinks.

I would agree with that, but I'm looking for an online Magazine, not individual articles. I would hope this is a preview, as they really can't call it Dragon Magazine - or shouldn't - because as it stands now, it is NOT a magazine!


Meh, I can write my own flavor text. Why do I need this article?

Dark Archive

I thought the article was okay, but did anyone else notice the wordiness of the thing? I could tell there was no editor concerned about page/word count sending back a draft with "GET TO THE POINT" in bright red ink. Fluff is cool. But this fluff was a little too, um, fluffed, for my taste. Maybe WotC needs a new fluffer. Or they should tell their current fluffer to dial it back a notch. Or give me an excuse to use "fluffer" in a sentence again.

...

Fluffer.


Just a side note: to those who wondered about the "permanency" of Dragon/Dungeon articles, see the "Download This Article" link at the bottom of the page. Don't know if this we be available when they start charging, but it seems like a positive sign. (Although the "spoiler" text remains hidden in the saved version.)

Greg


Seems to me like they hit the ground crawling with this one. You'd think they would make an effort in the first electronic issue to make us sit up and say, "Wow, I've got to subscribe," not "Wow, this is lackluster."

I don't like online magazines to begin with - I prefer a real magazine in my hands and, as others have pointed out, this wasn't even an online magazine it was an article on a website. I tried increasing the text size so I could read it better, but this just buggered everything up and resulted in text superimposed on top of other text.

I thought the article itself was mediocre. If this is representative of the new Dragon magazine, I'll be passing on it.


Blargh.

Cheers,
Cam


Krypter wrote:

A webpage with articles is not a magazine, online or otherwise. Perhaps they should take a look at what Adobe Magazine can do. Even then it's not the same thing as a physical magazine held in your hands.

Give me back my Dragon and Dungeon, dammit.

They've gotta work on the PDF's. They lack any effort on layout, and most of the articles so far (although not this one) have had illustrations or maps cut in half from one page to the next. Very amateur; even I can do better in MS Word.

I can't say that I've actually read the thing yet, because, well, I just don't like reading long tracts of text online.

[EDIT: And what's this about hidden text?]


Okay, I've said a bad thing, now I'll say a good thing about DDI:

I really like the hi-res images available as seperate JPEG's. As with Paizo's generous hi-res images, I've been building up a very sizeable collection of images for future use as play aids and illustrations.


In all I remained un impressed. If this is the preview for what dragon magazine is going to be, well fizzle pop*@@. WotC is going to have to do better if they want people to pay.

As for the idea of what 4th edition Deathknight is going to be abotu. For the most part I like it. The soul weapon, "The point of light" intro with the varying genesis stories of the deathknight, the more martial bent and the leader of undead, I liked all of it.


Riley wrote:
Krypter wrote:

A webpage with articles is not a magazine, online or otherwise. Perhaps they should take a look at what Adobe Magazine can do. Even then it's not the same thing as a physical magazine held in your hands.

Give me back my Dragon and Dungeon, dammit.

They've gotta work on the PDF's. They lack any effort on layout, and most of the articles so far (although not this one) have had illustrations or maps cut in half from one page to the next. Very amateur; even I can do better in MS Word.

I can't say that I've actually read the thing yet, because, well, I just don't like reading long tracts of text online.

[EDIT: And what's this about hidden text?]

I am positive the format for the actual version of 360 (PDF version at the end of the month) will be formatted and pretty and all that fun stuff.


Disenchanter wrote:
The Last Rogue wrote:
This article is up. What do you guys think?
That I shouldn't have to sign up for D&DI to read a "free preview."

Um . . .you don't have to. You are just logging in with your thread forums. A lot of websites do that; just because you log in with your thread forum does not mean they are going to find you, steal your credit card and charge you.

Sometimes I feel like you guys are grasping at straws. Sure, there are some legitimate concerns, but really -- is loggin on that strenuous on you?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
The Last Rogue wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:
The Last Rogue wrote:
This article is up. What do you guys think?
That I shouldn't have to sign up for D&DI to read a "free preview."
Um . . .you don't have to. You are just logging in with your thread forums.

Sure, but now all their exec guys are dancing around going "Look at all the new people we've attracted - I told you this was a good idea!"


The Last Rogue wrote:
I am positive the format for the actual version of 360 (PDF version at the end of the month) will be formatted and pretty and all that fun stuff.

These are my thoughts too. They've said they'll compile them all together at the end of the month and once we see that we should get a much clearer idea of the look of their online magazine and the issues to come.

I liked that they could link to various sources and had hi-res images. It'll be interesting to see how the magazine looks at the end of the month.

The Exchange Kobold Press

Krypter wrote:
DitheringFool wrote:
I can't say it enough. If you miss a magazine for D&D-lovers by D&D-lovers, you must check this out.

Looking better by the day, but I don't particularly care for interviews (with anybody) and that seems to be half the content. Am I wrong?

Issue #2 is 45 pages long. Exactly, 3 of those 45 pages are the Wayne Reynolds interview.

So, I hate to say it but yeah, yer wrong. ;)

Also, Ecology of the Barghest beats the ichor out of that Death Knight.


Don't we already have the fluff origin for Death Knights? In Dragon #290-#291 ("Death Knights of Oerth" I & II). If they've junked that in favor of something completely new--like their big FU to the fluff in the 2 Fiendish Codices--then I'm not interested in ruining my eyesight even further reading it online. I quite liked those 2 articles some years back...

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

What caught my eye? The new art.

Well rather, the lack of new art. It looked like one of the Mind's Eye, or Class Acts, or any of the other articles we've seen done with recycled art.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

I haven't read the whole thing yet. I basically just skimmed it to see if they trashed what we did in Dragon 290 % 291, and I was pleased to see St. Kargoth get a mention (especially because he was BORN in Dragon in Scott Bennie's ancient Saints article). Funny enough, the author of the new Ecology of the Death Knight was the editorial assistant on Dragon who edited and in many cases built the stat blocks in the two death knight articles I edited for Dragon in the early 3.0 days. The death knight circle, as they say, is now complete.

--Erik


Unless I misread the article though, there is no mention of Demogorgon as having anything to do with the creation of death knights. I think they've made the demon prince responsible Orcus (which makes a lot of sense in some respects).

Of course, they do supply alternate creation stories.


Overall I thought it was a fair to good article. Definitely not the best ecology ever, but far far from the worst.

I quite liked the talk about the 4e version. Undead melee master here we go.


The Last Rogue wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:
The Last Rogue wrote:
This article is up. What do you guys think?
That I shouldn't have to sign up for D&DI to read a "free preview."

Um . . .you don't have to. You are just logging in with your thread forums. A lot of websites do that; just because you log in with your thread forum does not mean they are going to find you, steal your credit card and charge you.

Sometimes I feel like you guys are grasping at straws. Sure, there are some legitimate concerns, but really -- is loggin on that strenuous on you?

Maybe I am grasping at straws... But they are the straws WoTC is f'ing giving me:

Ecology Article wrote:
Dragon articles require that you sign-in to D&D Insider to view the content.

To read it requires me to sign-in to D&D Insider

For me to do that would require me to, you guessed it, sign up for D&DI. (I have long since burned all access I had to the WoTC message boards. They have nothing of use there.) Not the charged version mind you... But I would still have to put my "name" on the list of those that want D&DI.

With the craptacular way WoTC is handling it's marketing lately, I would expect them to do a better job of trying to draw in interest.

But perhaps I am just not sheep enough.


Disenchanter wrote:
The Last Rogue wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:
The Last Rogue wrote:
This article is up. What do you guys think?
That I shouldn't have to sign up for D&DI to read a "free preview."

Um . . .you don't have to. You are just logging in with your thread forums. A lot of websites do that; just because you log in with your thread forum does not mean they are going to find you, steal your credit card and charge you.

Sometimes I feel like you guys are grasping at straws. Sure, there are some legitimate concerns, but really -- is loggin on that strenuous on you?

Maybe I am grasping at straws... But they are the straws WoTC is f'ing giving me:

Ecology Article wrote:
Dragon articles require that you sign-in to D&D Insider to view the content.

To read it requires me to sign-in to D&D Insider

For me to do that would require me to, you guessed it, sign up for D&DI. (I have long since burned all access I had to the WoTC message boards. They have nothing of use there.) Not the charged version mind you... But I would still have to put my "name" on the list of those that want D&DI.

With the craptacular way WoTC is handling it's marketing lately, I would expect them to do a better job of trying to draw in interest.

But perhaps I am just not sheep enough.

Wait. You don't like 4e?

Liberty's Edge

The Last Rogue wrote:

Overall I thought it was a fair to good article. Definitely not the best ecology ever, but far far from the worst.

I quite liked the talk about the 4e version. Undead melee master here we go.

It wasn't too bad. I thought the writing lacked the "oomph" I'd often see in Dragon. Maybe a different editorial touch...

I also see that they SPOILERED the Savage Tide SPOILER; that was deftly done. I saw complaints earlier today.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I miss the magazines. Not quite sure why. Maybe it's just that reading on the internet is not nearly as clean as reading a magazine. There's always all the navigation information on the edges of the article and the text is just one long column. It failed to get me to do more than skim - which frequently happened with the magazine as well. But, at least with the magazine, there was a chance I'd flip through and read the article. Much less likely on the internet.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Phil. L wrote:

Unless I misread the article though, there is no mention of Demogorgon as having anything to do with the creation of death knights. I think they've made the demon prince responsible Orcus (which makes a lot of sense in some respects).

Of course, they do supply alternate creation stories.

They do mention Demogorgon at least one time for Saint Kargoth in the Famous Death Knights section.

Also while I find it silly that I have to log in to see these articles while they are free, part of me wants them to do this so that they can get all of the bugs in the system before they start charging.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Ozyr wrote:
I would agree with that, but I'm looking for an online Magazine, not individual articles. I would hope this is a preview, as they really can't call it Dragon Magazine - or shouldn't - because as it stands now, it is NOT a magazine!

They said they were going to add content three times a week. It will have to come out as indiviudal articles. Dragon Magazine was individual articles.

I personally liked the article. There were some ideas in their I loved. I am already thinking about my Dwarven Kingdom run by a Death Knight. I think this would be a fun time... Now, what is the motivation for my players to arrive and check it out...


Sebastian wrote:
I miss the magazines.

/agree

The magazines really worked for me, especially because of how I usually read them. I'd more times than not read them at the laundry place, or in bed before I went to sleep, or in the bathroom. None of those are great places to mess with hauling in even a laptop for say 10 - 30 mins of reading or so.


Cam Banks wrote:

Blargh.

Cheers,
Cam

Not only did they screw with the original Death Knight (Orcus was involved with the oldest Death Knight? Even if Saint Kargoth was mentioned, this contradicts his origin), but the most famous Death Knight, Lord Loren Soth, certainly didn't choose to become a Death Knight, perform a ritual to make him into one, or carry his soul in his sword.

Not to mention, can we please get a few 4th edition articles that just present information instead of going off on a tangent about how horrible every previous edition was. Amazingly, even without 4th edition Soth became one of the most recognizable D&D villains ever, so I guess just as people made accidentally lame characters, designers must have made accidentally cool monsters and NPCs as well.


Well for one thing, it's not necessarily practical to read a website at a tavern on Your lunch break... or curl up with it on a couch... or take it with You to the garderobe... or read in the carriage on a long journey...

Printing the PDFs isn't quite the same either since the cost of paper and ink will be higher (especially without an auto-duplexing printer) and You'd need a folder or binder to put them in.

As for the article itself, it wasn't bad and I like the idea of the Death Knight as an "Undead Melee Master" rather than the current and past incarnations. I do agree with whomever said that the writing could have been tightened up some.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

The article did nothing for me, it didn't give me anything in terms of new ideas, neither did it evoke scenes that I could use in the future.

What I find jarring is that DnD history is one of the sacred cows that need to be sacrificed in order for 4e to succeed.....

In conclusion, let's hope that at the end of the month they produce something magazine-like.

Would you have paid for this article?

Dark Archive

KnightErrantJR wrote:
Not to mention, can we please get a few 4th edition articles that just present information instead of going off on a tangent about how horrible every previous edition was. Amazingly, even without 4th edition Soth became one of the most recognizable D&D villains ever, so I guess just as people made accidentally lame characters, designers must have made accidentally cool monsters and NPCs as well.

This is what irks me too. Every WoC article somewhere mentions how cool and easy and much better everything in 4th edition is.

I honestly think they are just very exited for their new creation but it comes over as condescending.

At the beginning of September I was very exited and looked forward to 4th edition, but this constant "our edition is the best thing since sliced bread" makes me angry. I am starting to feel antipathy towards 4th edition. And that has nothing to do with the new mechanics or killing of sacred cows.

I can only hope that 4th will live up to the extremely high expectations I and I think may other gamers have.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Darkjoy wrote:
Would you have paid for this article?

Paid how much? I think I would be willing to pay a dollar for the article, Maybe two. I think they could have seperated the changes for 4th edition into a seperate article and shortened this one. The page layout was more annoying than that of the magazine for myself. I just don't like scrolling down as read.

The art credit confuses me a little since the first image doesn't seem to be done by that artist. He still did most of the art, but I'm not sure why one would get credit and not the other.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

As an Article it was OK... nothing flash, but still an interesting read.

I have to agree with alot of other people though, the formatting of it well and truly sucks. It can hardly be called Dragon when plainly all it is is another online article the same as any other freebie from Wizards. If it wer formatted as a Magazine article, with page borders and such then I could see it. I can only hope to Mighty Set that when they offer the collected version at the end of the month that it is properly formatted as a Magazine and not just a grouped .zip of the Online Articles.
Once again Wizards is not instilling me with any need to convert to 4e.

Man I hate Digital Books.
I like having a Magazine that I can take with me, or sit in bed and read, or lay on the longe and read, or... ad infinitium
Printing a copy of a book costs me just as much for an inferior product.

I like the fact that Paizo offers the .pdf with my subscription, but I subscribe for the Hard Copy... not the .pdf.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Tharen the Damned wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:
Not to mention, can we please get a few 4th edition articles that just present information instead of going off on a tangent about how horrible every previous edition was. Amazingly, even without 4th edition Soth became one of the most recognizable D&D villains ever, so I guess just as people made accidentally lame characters, designers must have made accidentally cool monsters and NPCs as well.

This is what irks me too. Every WoC article somewhere mentions how cool and easy and much better everything in 4th edition is.

I honestly think they are just very exited for their new creation but it comes over as condescending.

At the beginning of September I was very exited and looked forward to 4th edition, but this constant "our edition is the best thing since sliced bread" makes me angry. I am starting to feel antipathy towards 4th edition. And that has nothing to do with the new mechanics or killing of sacred cows.

I can only hope that 4th will live up to the extremely high expectations I and I think may other gamers have.

I agree, the whole "this thing is sooo good and fixes all of the bad things about the game that you are playing now" smacks to me of "you are playing an inferior game and have been for the past couple of years (I took some time away when 3e came out, and only returned with 3.5), aren't you an idiot".

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
I miss the magazines. Not quite sure why. Maybe it's just that reading on the internet is not nearly as clean as reading a magazine. There's always all the navigation information on the edges of the article and the text is just one long column. It failed to get me to do more than skim - which frequently happened with the magazine as well. But, at least with the magazine, there was a chance I'd flip through and read the article. Much less likely on the internet.

The cover illo at the top of the article got me steamed, not sure why but it did.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Heathansson wrote:
I also see that they SPOILERED the Savage Tide SPOILER; that was deftly done. I saw complaints earlier today.

That spoiler is harmless compared to the full synopsis spoiler Paizo themselves did in Dragon #359. I still find that sad. :(


I was pretty underwhelmed. But , then again, I guess I was kinda biased going into it.
It definitely isn't an acceptable substitute for Dragon, as far as I'm concrned.

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