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Dungeons & Dragons—4th Edition: H1—Keep on the Shadowfell


Product Discussion

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Okay it has to be said, does this actually sound like its based in Faerun?

Nice catch about the cleric of Orcus so what is his portfolio?
So any takers as to what this adventure will entail and by that i mean;

a) Has pregenerated characters sinc eit is a preview of 4e,
b) conversion notes if you want to use 3.5 or even 3.0 characters,
and
c) In addition to above the capacity to convert characters to 4e however limited.

Hope this qualifies as a good start for a product discussion so its over to you!

Cheliax

My guess is its a setting neutral module.

As for the portfolio of Orcus? I imagine the same as it has always been.

Don't think it'll have much about previous edition conversion in it. At least I'd hate to think they'd waste page space on it. It is a 1-3rd level module after all. Not like you'll be bringing characters from a long lasting campaign into it.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber
hopeless wrote:

Okay it has to be said, does this actually sound like its based in Faerun?

Nice catch about the cleric of Orcus so what is his portfolio?
So any takers as to what this adventure will entail and by that i mean;

a) Has pregenerated characters sinc eit is a preview of 4e,
b) conversion notes if you want to use 3.5 or even 3.0 characters,
and
c) In addition to above the capacity to convert characters to 4e however limited.

Hope this qualifies as a good start for a product discussion so its over to you!

If you'd follow the reports from Gencon, you'd seen that WotC denied again and again that there will be any conversion guide (at least nothing coming close to the one for 3rd edition). 3e and 4e are simply supposed to be too different to make any conversion guide feasible.

Besides they want to promote the new edition and not provide information on how to convert 4e to 3e... ;-)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

well they look they are bring back the ## module numbering again at least

I agree thou, I seriously doubt any pages will be devoted to 3.5, that would be like Microsoft devoting pages to XP for Vista install, other then to install Vista over it (ie get rid of it)

Cheliax RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

HA HA HA HA HA you bought this!!!

oh wait........

LOL

RM

Cheliax

Fatespinner wrote:

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

Those letter designations you are listing are for Paizo products. WotC will designate their products however they want.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DangerDwarf wrote:
Fatespinner wrote:

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

Those letter designations you are listing are for Paizo products. WotC will designate their products however they want.

You see, there's this new thing called "sarcasm" and I think that's what Fatespinner might be employing there... maybe...

Fatespinner's just saying that while Paizo's module denotations makes sense, WotC's doesn't... I think.


"H" means "Heroic." The other two letter designations apparently are "P" for "Paragon" and "E" for "Epic." These three categories reflect the three, general levels of play in 4e:

Heroic - Levels 1-10
Paragon - Levels 11-20
Epic - Levels 21-30


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There we go.


Shroomy wrote:

"H" means "Heroic." The other two letter designations apparently are "P" for "Paragon" and "E" for "Epic." These three categories reflect the three, general levels of play in 4e:

Heroic - Levels 1-10
Paragon - Levels 11-20
Epic - Levels 21-30

And I thought "H" was for History!

So does that mean after Shadowfell we'll eventually see HA-1?

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

Lately I didn't look that much at the WotC site, but here is the official statement by Bill Slavicsek, director of the WotC R&D department:

Bill Slavicsek on Wizards.com wrote:


Conversion

The other issue that seems to have caused a stir revolves around the conversion of characters from 3rd Edition rules to 4th Edition rules. There are a few key concepts that need to be made crystal clear so that everyone understands them.

First, 4th Edition D&D is still powered by the d20 System. At its core, if you know how to play 3rd Edition D&D you’re going to know how to play 4th Edition.

Second, this is a new game. It uses all of the trappings of the current d20 System, but it approaches all of the rules from a new and exciting perspective. That means that while you’ll know how to make attack rolls, skill checks, and damage rolls (the broad concepts), you won’t necessarily know all of the nuances of the fighter class or the arcane power source, or the death and dying rules (the details).

Third, we can’t physically replicate eight years of products and options right out of the gate. It just can’t happen.

With these things in mind, straight-up character conversion won’t be possible. As James Wyatt so eloquently expressed it, however, you’ll have no problem expressing the concept and story of your 3rd Edition character within the framework of 4th Edition. As we’ve seen during playtesting, in many ways the new rules allow you to better match the rules to the character concept you had in mind than the 3E rules ever did.

In essence, using the 4th Edition rules, you’ll be able to rebuild your character around the same concept and backstory as before, but there won’t be a magic formula that says, “change this number to that number” or “this power to that power.”

Here is the link.

So in short: no conversion guide and only superficial similarities with 3.5e.

Greetings,
Günther


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Modules, Tales Subscriber

I just noticed the price for this module! Holy crap. That better be a massive, hardcover mega-adventure to charge that much. If that's any indication of 4th edition prices, count me less interested.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

Welcome to the Delve format - where they laugh at page counts.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Modules, Tales Subscriber
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Welcome to the Delve format - where they laugh at page counts.

They won't be laughing so much when people don't buy it at that ridiculous price. That's the price of a new hardcover. If it's not a hardcover, it better be a monster-sized softcover.


BenS wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Welcome to the Delve format - where they laugh at page counts.
They won't be laughing so much when people don't buy it at that ridiculous price. That's the price of a new hardcover. If it's not a hardcover, it better be a monster-sized softcover.

Perhaps its one of those super adventures they produced this year or maybe whats being paid for are the rules for this preview version of 4e along with some token extras maybe a fold out map, miniatures... well okay its still a bit steep if you wanted to get people interested in a new version of d&d.

Perhaps too steep.


Wow...anyone confirm that this is the correct price?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Blastin wrote:

Wow...anyone confirm that this is the correct price?

That's the same price as the listing on Amazon.

It's listed as a hardcover. And keep in mind you get "three double-sided poster maps suitable for use with D&D miniatures, as well as information on the town of Winterhaven and environs" with the thirty dollar module. That's worth the price of admission, right?


IconoclasticScream wrote:
Blastin wrote:

Wow...anyone confirm that this is the correct price?

That's the same price as the listing on Amazon.

It's listed as a hardcover. And keep in mind you get "three double-sided poster maps suitable for use with D&D miniatures, as well as information on the town of Winterhaven and environs" with the thirty dollar module. That's worth the price of admission, right?

A $29 admission price? Don't know about that. I don't use the maps, and "information on the town of Winterhaven and environs" is a bit too vague a statement for my tastes.

As someone else said above, if you are looking to put out a preview module to get people interested, wouldn't it make more sense to leave out the extras that are not of universal use and make it more affordable?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Blastin wrote:

A $29 admission price? Don't know about that. I don't use the maps, and "information on the town of Winterhaven and environs" is a bit too vague a statement for my tastes.

As someone else said above, if you are looking to put out a preview module to get people interested, wouldn't it make more sense to leave out the extras that are not of universal use and make it more affordable?

I'm not sure you're getting the WotC marketing strategy- You're not supposed to buy their product any longer because it's useful or you'll enjoy playing it, you're supposed to buy because they tell you what's cool. Like in December and January? Those Monsters and Classes/Races books? You'll happily spend forty bucks between the two of them, essentially paying them for their commercials, because it'll be cool. And in April you'll buy Keep on the Shadowfell a full month before the rules come out to show you how to play it because WotC says it's cool and you'll love all the innovation.

WotC and 4E- First they hypnotize you with the power of their spin, then you send them all your money.

:)


IconoclasticScream wrote:
Blastin wrote:

A $29 admission price? Don't know about that. I don't use the maps, and "information on the town of Winterhaven and environs" is a bit too vague a statement for my tastes.

As someone else said above, if you are looking to put out a preview module to get people interested, wouldn't it make more sense to leave out the extras that are not of universal use and make it more affordable?

I'm not sure you're getting the WotC marketing strategy- You're not supposed to buy their product any longer because it's useful or you'll enjoy playing it, you're supposed to buy because they tell you what's cool. Like in December and January? Those Monsters and Classes/Races books? You'll happily spend forty bucks between the two of them, essentially paying them for their commercials, because it'll be cool. And in April you'll buy Keep on the Shadowfell a full month before the rules come out to show you how to play it because WotC says it's cool and you'll love all the innovation.

WotC and 4E- First they hypnotize you with the power of their spin, then you send them all your money.

:)

LOL.... sadly, what you said sarcastically above sure does seem damned accurate ;)

It will be interesting to see how many people DO actually pay WOTC those inflated prices for their commercials.


found this posted at ENworld. While I'm not quite sure this justifies a $29 price tag, it at least comes a lot closer to what I would expect for that price.

>>Adventure H1: Keep on the Shadowfell: April 2008. This is a quick-start adventure, which will include pregenerated characters -- "Get a jump on 4th Edition with Keep on the Shadowfell™, a D&D® adventure for characters of levels 1–3. This adventure includes a quick-start rulebook, an adventure booklet, a players’ booklet, 3 poster maps, and pre-generated characters. Additional adventure content will be presented on D&D Insider™ (www.dndinsider.com)." 96 pages. [The "H" in "H1" stands for "Heroic"]. Mike Mearls comments on H1: "While H1 is far from a mega-dungeon, I've tried to incorporate at least some sense that the PCs can wander around the dungeon, exploring different sub-sectors and having a really different experience based on what they do....The really nice thing is that there isn't much of a sense of an XP grind in 4e."<<


H = Heroic (levels 1-10): foes are orcs and ogres, some giants, small dragons. Adventures tend to be local.

P = Paragon (levels 11 - 20): on par with the current low to mid teens right now. Bigger threats are faced that might threaten a kingdom.

E = Epic (levels 21 - 30): world or planar threats.


Fatespinner wrote:

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

H means Heroic. In 4th Edition, there are 3 level tiers: Heroic (1-10), Paragon (11-20) and Epic Destiny (21-30). Smurf.


Some months ago at WoTC
Gamedesigner (GD): ..and then in April or May, we put up a demo adventure to show everyone how cool the new edition is.
Manager (M): Put up, are you sure we could get up the "pay per page" system we planed for DI till then?
GD: No, players get this for free.
M *turns white and makes a strangling noise*: For Free??!!!
GD: Yes, players will be very hot on knowing what the system is about.
M *gets back compusure and sets on grandfatherly smile*: That's why I make business and you make....whatever you do here. They are hot, that means you can charge them anything and they would pay, that's good news, make one of your booklets and we sell it like the lead ups, we published in winter this classes and monsters things and make it nearly as expensive as the new PHB.
GD: But players will be very angry if they have to pay that much for a 32 page adventure.
M: Again you are not seeing the big picture, my son. We put the rest up on the DI and charge a second time. Its a demo anyway, people will accept to play for an hour and then: please register, its like World of Warcraft (oh, gods, why did I reject the job at Blizzards five years ago, now I am here and have to live with this low-profit-margin-business). We had lots of costs, all the drops in sales with the old edition, all this free Dungeon and Dragon and all this free previews...gamers should be happy to help us refill my...oh, our pockets so that we can go on making more money...I mean games...I think I had a very good idea with that preview adventure, if you did not have me...

I nearly bought H1, than I saw that it is only 64 pages (at least on the WoTC homepage) and it was clear that they intended to milk gamers again, the additional material on the DI makes it just worse (just say "nominal fee"). So I will wait for the PHB, maybe.

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I just figured out what it is with 4e and a fair bit of 3e that has kept irritating me.

The miniatures.

Now, I love maps. Where my walls aren't hidden by bookshelves, I have maps up. However, you see, the maps I have up are WORLD MAPS and other things of a large enough scope to be worth the effort. I don't fiddle much with miniatures. They aren't worth my time to invest in, overall, because the metal ones that I can buy aren't painted, and the plastic prepainted ones come in random bundles and usually don't have what I'm looking for with a monster anyhow. Seriously, how long did it take them to get around to making one of the more iconic dungeon beasts, the Gelatinous Cube? (Seriously; it used to be that the simple suggestion of that thing could cause low-level adventurers to have a panic attack...) And you still have to be a Random Booster Pack because Random Collectible Are Kewl (and profitable).

So yeah, given the WotC production values we've seen, the maps I'd likely never use, and all that?

I think I'll given the Keep on the Bord^H^H^H^H^H Shadowfell a miss.

Andoran

The adventure description sounds suspiciously similar to KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS from the old Basic D&D Box Set.

A keep overlooking a rift with lots of baddies in it - The Caves of Chaos, maybe? The only difference is that the keep is abandoned rather than active, implying that some of the evil from the Shadowfell wiped out the garrison some time ago.

Is it jaded of me to think that this is a recycled story-line, weakly veiled by a slightly different title?

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cuchulainn wrote:

The adventure description sounds suspiciously similar to KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS from the old Basic D&D Box Set.

A keep overlooking a rift with lots of baddies in it - The Caves of Chaos, maybe? The only difference is that the keep is abandoned rather than active, implying that some of the evil from the Shadowfell wiped out the garrison some time ago.

Is it jaded of me to think that this is a recycled story-line, weakly veiled by a slightly different title?

Given that you're far from the only one to have this suspicion...

I'd say no, you're not.

Cheliax

Cuchulainn wrote:


Is it jaded of me to think that this is a recycled story-line, weakly veiled by a slightly different title?

They are paying "homage" to a classic in only the way wotc can :)


Fatespinner wrote:
...wtf is 'H'?!

I'm only guessing, but I imagine based on the announced breakdown of the playable levels into three tiers, Heroic, Paragon and Epic, that a module with the expected play levels of 1-3 will be (H)erioc. Thus Heroic level modules will likely be labeled H1-Hx. Presumably then the Paragon play modules will be label P1-Px and Epic play modules will be label E1-Ex.

Osirion

Wow I am an old school gamer. They said three poster sized maps and I went wow! I wonder what they'll be maps of! Maybe we'll bet a big Sandpoint style picture of Winterhaven! Maybe a big overview of the region! The thought that they'd just be big bland maze maps with squares for bouncing minis across never even occurred to me.

Blaugh! *twitch* I think I lost a level!


hopeless wrote:

Okay it has to be said, does this actually sound like its based in Faerun?

Nice catch about the cleric of Orcus so what is his portfolio?
So any takers as to what this adventure will entail and by that i mean;

a) Has pregenerated characters sinc eit is a preview of 4e,
b) conversion notes if you want to use 3.5 or even 3.0 characters,
and
c) In addition to above the capacity to convert characters to 4e however limited.

Hope this qualifies as a good start for a product discussion so its over to you!

They moved some gods from different sources to the core gods in 4th edition. One of them is orcus, but also Bahamut is a core god now. The new standard d&d setting is unnamed, and is not fearun.

Bout the adventure I guess it has pre-generated character sheets and a small rulebook with 4th edition rules. Similar like the basic d&d boxes has in 3rd and 3.5.

And I also think they wont put 3.5 conversion rules in printed pages. (maybe as web enhancement through ddi)

Satty.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Fatespinner wrote:

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

H is for Hasbro!


Fatespinner wrote:

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

Maybe they will be going by...

H-Heroic
P-Paragon
E-Epic
for the module numbering.


Following up on the price question:

This page shows a list price of $29.95.

However, the product page at Wizards shows a price of $24.95.

I'm thinking of ordering it and would rather give Paizo my business, but . . .

Thanks for any clarification.

Qadira

Pat o' the Ninth Power wrote:

Following up on the price question:

This page shows a list price of $29.95.

However, the product page at Wizards shows a price of $24.95.

I'm thinking of ordering it and would rather give Paizo my business, but . . .

Thanks for any clarification.

Interestingly, it's also shown as a trade paperback, and not hardcover.

So, from concept to announcement, something's changed.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Our distributor is still showing it as $29.95, and it doesn't appear to be a hardcover. So, either Wizards' product page is inaccurate, or they haven't yet notified our distributor of a price change. (Given that Amazon also lists it as $29.95, I suspect it's wrong on Wizards' website.)


Ok, thanks.


Fatespinner wrote:

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?! [/QUOTE

If it's 4th edition, it probably stands for "H"ardly worth the money...stick to 3E and buy pathfinder :-)

Taldor

I believe H is for heroic. It's called H1 becasue it's the first adventure in the heroic tier. I almost feel dirty for even knowing that.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber
WotC's Nightmare wrote:
I believe H is for heroic. It's called H1 becasue it's the first adventure in the heroic tier. I almost feel dirty for even knowing that.

"H" could be for heroic... :p :p

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

In the old AD&D registry, "H" stood for "High-Level." (And "HH" stood for "Head-to-Head", a series of really well-designed 1-on-1 adventures.)

Upps. Where was I? Ah, yes.

I like the idea that, when the 4th Edition rules hit the shelves next month, there'll already be an adventure available, to demonstrate to the DMs what a 4th Edition campaign should feel like.

This is 4th Edition's version of the old B2, "Keep on the borderlands", or 3rd Edition's "Sunless Citadel".

I boggle at that price-point, though. DM's will be spending a hundred dollars on the rules, and then another $30 on the adventure? Wow.


Ok I got a demo copy of the module yesterday at work in the mail from WotC. It's a folder with a 80 page adventure with a layout that reminds me of Pathfinder Adventure Path.
And yes the price on the back is $29.99.
The fast play rules book is 16 pages.
6 pages are the rules.
The other 10 are Characters and how to advance them from 1st to 3rd lvl.

It's a vast improvement over any D&D module I have seen in the past.
Seems they saw what Paizo was doing and adapted. They also improved on the layout. If You have any questions there is a great thread about it on Enworlds forums. Or ask here.


Oh and street date for this in your local game store is May 20th 2008.


Twizz wrote:

Ok I got a demo copy of the module yesterday at work in the mail from WotC. It's a folder with a 80 page adventure with a layout that reminds me of Pathfinder Adventure Path.

And yes the price on the back is $29.99.
The fast play rules book is 16 pages.
6 pages are the rules.
The other 10 are Characters and how to advance them from 1st to 3rd lvl.

It's a vast improvement over any D&D module I have seen in the past.
Seems they saw what Paizo was doing and adapted. They also improved on the layout. If You have any questions there is a great thread about it on Enworlds forums. Or ask here.

Likewise I saw a demo copy this afternoon. I cringe at the price too.

However, the folio does come with full scale poster size color battlemaps for the whole adventure. That's pretty nice.


Demo copy!!!!!????? how the (Bad Word) did you get a demo copy!!!???


Donald Harmon wrote:
Demo copy!!!!!????? how the (Bad Word) did you get a demo copy!!!???

Easy friend, I didn't get one to take home and keep... a local gaming shop received one to show customers. They let people flip through the pages and see what it contained. :)


I work at a gaming shop. And I'm in charge of all the RPG ordering so I took the demo copy. Last night I ran a group of 6 people thru the 1st 2 encounters. Went pretty smooth the 2nd encounter lasted much longer than the 1st. Why on earth would you make 1 hit point mobs I'll never know.

If your in the louisville,ky area and want to check it out. You can email me at d.rhye@insightbb.com. Or call Book and Music Exchange 969-4403 and ask for donny. I can even set up a playtest demo if you'd like. I hammered thru enough of the rules I think I have a pretty good feel for the system.

Think once I get thru one more sit down and play with the rules session I'll start planning some public demos.


The maps are really handy. Only thing I'd like is more info on town npcs and how they behave. But then they would have to add like 4 more pages.

Grand Lodge

Blastin wrote:
A $29 admission price? Don't know about that. I don't use the maps, ...

Well if you intend to play 4e your certainly going to have to start learning how to use maps because 4e is all about combat. Those roleplayers who prefer to play in the living room relaxing on sofas and no table will find 4e very hard to adjust too given that so many of the powers of classes involve positioning on the battlemap. Its sure gonna affect at least one gaming group I belong too where its hard enough to get them to use XP let alone miniatures!

However if you enjoy wargaming 4e is for you.

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