OK, I've been reading the STAP since the first adventure came out a year ago, and I'm getting ready to start running it. I'm re-reading the first couple of adventures (you'd be amazed how much I forget in a year), and I realized that I can't remember the Jade Ravens adding much to the plot at all.
Do they have a purpose or critical plot point that I've forgotten about? The first adventure briefly mentions them in passing, with the note that this is just foreshadowing, and that the Jade Ravens will become much more important characters later. Now, it could be that I've forgotten their critical role, but I don't really remember them adding much to the overall plot of the STAP at all.
This is a big deal to me because my players tend to be a fairly suspicious bunch. If I introduce a set of characters (competing adventurers, no less) that have no immediate purpose, they start thinking that the Jade Ravens are behind the attack on Lavinia's parents, or that they're somehow flunkies of Vanthus, or something. They're going to start asking questions that I can't really answer: "If Lavinia already employs the Jade Ravens, why is she bringing in us to do this? Are we the expendable fodder?" (Yes, we've played too much Shadowrun) Basically, I have a feeling that they're going to spend a significant amount of time trying to chase down these "leads" unnecessarily.
So my question boils down to: I'm thinking of getting rid of the Jade Ravens all together. Do you guys know of a reason that I shouldn't?
The Jade Ravens can be removed without too much fuss. I think the only adventure that's going to require some revision will be "the bullywug gambit." Otherwise, the group doesn't spend too much time "on screen." Beyond that, just alter a bit of backstory, and I'm pretty sure it's all good. The Jade Ravens are a big part of my campaign - largely because of the role-playing opportunities and suspicion (I played my share of GURPS: CYBERPUNK, and enjoy going around in circles) - but if they're not working for you, I'm pretty sure they're not critical.
The Jade Ravens are there to make the PCs look more awesome.
At their first meeting, the Jade Ravens are rude. They dismiss the PCs as hired help and might even hint that the PCs are expendable.
At their second meeting, the Jade Ravens have been overwhelmed and beaten bloody by a few lousy CR1 bullywugs, and the PCs are rescuing the incompetent losers.
During the sea voyage, one of the Jade Ravens is futilely trying to woo Lavinia, but the effort is doomed. She only likes PCs.
Once both teams reach the colonies, the PCs get important tasks like gathering allies while the Jade Ravens take care of lame and pathetic jobs like killing the ethereal filcher.
The Jade Ravens all die or are enslaved in Scuttlecove just for ambiance.
Basically, the Jade Ravens are a pack of red shirts that the PCs show up at every turn. They don't have any truly important part in the plot, but a lot of players find having a few recurring NPCs that the PCs can safely abuse without any real danger is enjoyable. A leader needs flunkies.
The "Jade Ravens" are there as a contrast-enhancer, as Kobold_lord already stated. They also have the sub-purpose of providing a team of body-guards (lousy ones) for Lavinia during the SWW and in ToD.
I played them up as rivals, positioning themselves in a race for Lavinia's attentions and generally jockeying with the PCs for the glory.
And they can serve as a safety net, providing assistance in those inopportune moments when the PCs are hanging in the ropes, as mine did with the Hydra.
While my players rescued the JRs in the BWG, they returned the favour there, much to eternal mortification of the party. Having the JRs dealing the crippling blows and providing the fire-magic to finish of thatparticular beast is still a sore point with them, even now as they have far surpassed the rivals. The JRs are bringing it up, too whenever the PCs get too cocky about themselves.
There has also been some intense role-playing with Liamarea and Kaskus on the part of several characters (both PCs now sadly expired ), which provided the non-local player characters more insights about Sasserine politics, the Vanderboren family and the Meravanchi clan.
Basically flavour, but they can add some real spice to the campaign. And I plan to make their demise in SoS a fully fledged dramatic sub-plot in and off itself. Survivors of that might also make possible replacement cohorts, if things turn ugly.
This isn’t from play experience, but only how I intended to use the Ravens, so take that for what it’s worth.
My take on the Ravens is likely based on my first exposure to them. I didn’t get the AP in order and the first time I saw them was in Tides of Dread. There they were described as a failing adventuring team that I thought contrasted well with the supposed success of the PC team. As I got back issues, I decided to play them up as more sympathetic than rival and, by Tides of Dread, give the PCs the impression that every success they’ve had has been at the expense of the Ravens.
For example, I’m going to have one or more of the PCs introduced to Lavinia by one of the Ravens. In effect, the Ravens would have said “here are these talented up-and-comers you could use” and let the players think of them as favorable contacts or even mentors.
In Tides of Dread, the Ravens will be taking on all the listed Farshore missions that the PCs don’t do while they’re out in the island interior. Instead of being the adventurers that get the PCs’ castoffs, they’ll be aired as defenders of the colony. Despite their successes there, the Ravens are falling apart, though, and would also act as a precautionary tale for the players.
By the time they buy it in Scuttlecove, I hope to make their lives have some value to the players.
In the long run, I think that having the Ravens be ineffective, mean-spirited failures isn’t going to make them worth the time to roleplay.
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A lot of it depends on how your party views the Ravens.
My party is actually moderately fond of Kaskus and the sorceress after the events of the Bullywug gambit - particularly the party druid, who spent some time with Kaskus helping him bury his killed badger companion.
On the other hand, the entire party thinks the Jade Raven's leader is a horse's behind, and the rogue worries them a great deal since he seems to be slipping.
These seperate views of the Ravens actually enhances how they're starting to fall apart - admittedly, I'm only just reaching the end of the SWW, so we'll see how things go in Tides of Dread.
Creative Director
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Yeah... the role the Jade Ravens play in any one game depends on what the DM wants to do with them. They're basically there to fill the "competing party" role. They can be foils to the PCs, allies, or whatever. We have a few suggestions in "Bullywug Gambit," "Tides of Dread," and "Serpents of Scuttlecove" for a possible story arc for them, but their presence in the campaign has very little impact on the plot of the campaign itself beyond "Bullywug Gambit."
Do with them what you will, in other words! :-)
As the PCs prepared for the voyage in Sea Wyvern's Wake, I had Lavinia explain that she would be traveling on the Blue Nixie with the Jade Ravens because "they need much more supervision than you (the PCs) do." If you look at their alignments in the first couple of adventures, I believe they're all neutral (i.e. non-good), so I played them as self-involved, not-so-successful profiteers.
And like others have said, once you get to Farshore, they can take care of minor side-quests that would be a waste of time for the PCs.
I'm finding the JRs to be a fifth-wheel that I'm having trouble working into the campaign. One PC is involved with Liamae, that would work better if it had been Lavinia. Avner is jerk enough, Zan is not needed. There's more than enough NPCs in SWW, the JRs just clutter it up. And lastly, my PCs keep wondering "Why the hell do we have to go ashore again? Let the Jade Ravens get eaten this time!".
If I had to do it over again, I'd drop them from the campaign. I'd use standard "family guards" for the Bullywug Gambit. For SWW, I'd put the PCs on the Blue Nixie as Lavinia's new guards (and make the SW a supply ship that just tags along).
The only drawback is Serpents of Scuttlecove. The idea of the JRs rushing off and getting slaughtered is one I like. If other NPCs from SWW survived though, you could use them in this spot. Or introduce the JRs as adventurers with Manthalay at Farshore.
This is a big deal to me because my players tend to be a fairly suspicious bunch. If I introduce a set of characters (competing adventurers, no less) that have no immediate purpose, they start thinking that the Jade Ravens are behind the attack on Lavinia's parents, or that they're somehow flunkies of Vanthus, or something. They're going to start asking questions that I can't really answer: "If Lavinia already employs the Jade Ravens, why is she bringing in us to do this? Are we the expendable fodder?" (Yes, we've played too much Shadowrun) Basically, I have a feeling that they're going to spend a significant amount of time trying to chase down these "leads" unnecessarily.So my question boils down to: I'm thinking of getting rid of the Jade Ravens all together. Do you guys know of a reason that I shouldn't?
I would be tempted to include them even more if my PCs were so suspicious that they jumped to the conclusion that every NPC that was not obviously critical to helping them was clearly working for the bad guys and just about to betray them. It sounds as if the JRs would actually make a good addition to your campaign just by being more or less what they are - a second adventuring group working for Lavina.
Work out their back ground a briefly and you should be able to answer your PCs questions. As I recall in the first few adventures the Jade Ravens had their own missions taking place in the background so if the PCs want to know why the Jade Ravens are not being sent on their mission its because they already have their marching orders from Lavina.
I hate Tolin! Hate, Hate, HAAATE HIM!!!
I know my life would be much simpler if he didn't exist! The rest of the Jade Ravens seem alright, but I can’t stand how Tolin looks at Lavinia . . . I want to see him brought down a peg or two.
I hate Tolin! Hate, Hate, HAAATE HIM!!!
I know my life would be much simpler if he didn't exist! The rest of the Jade Ravens seem alright, but I can’t stand how Tolin looks at Lavinia . . . I want to see him brought down a peg or two.
Sounds like you have a good DM.
The Jade Ravens bear an eerie resemblance to my players' party in STAP, with the exception of Liamae.
They do make for some interesting contrast, and social interaction. SWW seems to be a good adventure for developing them further, during events like the first dinner, landing at various ports, etc.
As a DM, the Jade Ravens have given me the chance to pry some social encounters out of my players.
For example, one of the PCs has (quite successfully) wooed Liamae. (As a half-orc with a Charisma of 5, this was in no small part due to a nat 20 rolled by the player when taking her home from a party at Zebula Meravanchi's before the trip.) He's even convinced her to adopt the path of Pelor (he's a crusader), which fits nicely based on her overall level progression (small alignment change, though).
Tolin's been secretly jealous of our group's scalawag pirate, who has seduced Lavinia (albeit somewhat benignly) with his rugged charm (warlock and face-man).
Zan's an interesting one, as he practically mirrors another character in the group (knife-thrower). However, our party's knife-thrower considers Zan a second-rate buffoon, risking his life and others, since the Jade Ravens keep screwing up (in his eyes). Can't wait to see if they become amicable rivals or bitter enemies.
Kaskus Kiel has been a bit more subdued in his prescence. Our party has a druid in it (aventi woman), who Kaskus seems to like, but can't quite connect with. It's funny how he seems to reinforce a quality about druids in this AP that they are a bit socially awkward. (Urol, anyone?)
Personally, I've got a lot in store for the Jade Ravens when our players hit Farshore, and beyond. They're some of the many wonderful NPC this AP has contributed.
Thanks, everybody, for your comments. I'm leaning towards pulling them out completely, but some of you have made me think twice about it.
Elsewhere on the boards someone suggested letting the players play the JR to accomplish some of the victory points in ToD. With four players it may be an interesting break (if I have not killed any of them in the next four adventures. :) Though I think I am about to get a 5th player (maybe churtle will want to be a JR... :)
...oh, yeah...the jade ravens. I remember them.
I have been dubious about including them too, and I'm modifying the scenario heavily anyway. However what they do as well as what was stated above is act as Lavinia's bodyguards sometimes, and that perhaps might be the best purpose for them. (even if they aren't that good at it--she gets captured twice)