paizo.com Recent Posts in Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)paizo.com Recent Posts in Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)2016-07-12T14:30:35Z2016-07-12T14:30:35ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)TheOrganGrinderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4472020-04-23T23:13:02Z2020-02-27T12:32:06Z<p>First up, many thanks to everyone who's offered commentary and advice, which has been invaluable to me here.</p>
<p>My PCs repelled the raid on Sandpoint, focusing first on Erylium (who got hit by a <i>frigid touch</i> from the falcata magus and escaped via magic) and then eventually on the dragon (again, <i>frigid touch</i>) but not before he'd had a chance to hit the garrison, cathedral, theatre, and the Hagfish. They largely ignored the groups of giants attacking the Two Knight Brewery and Scarnetti Manor, but broke the morale of the raid overall one round before the giants would have 'finished up' in either location; I've left myself the opportunity to have Titus Scarnetti seek retribution on them for the fact that they ignored the giants attacking his house and family and the subsequent death of his nephew Aleron, but I don't know if that'll go anywhere, in part because my PCs seem to be easily distracted by antagonistic NPCs and relationships more than friendly ones, and in part because I don't know what the Scarnettis and their Sczarni allies can meaningfully do against a group of level 11 PCs who drove off a dragon and a dozen giants and are <i>basically</i> superheroes at this point.</p>
<p>They've been <i>scrying</i> on Erylium (who's been hiding inside Mokmurian's <i>mage's private sanctum</i>) and the dragon (who so far has been saved by his spell resistance and decent Will save) but more with an eye to "tying up loose ends" from the raid rather than looking for a foothold into Jorgenfist. Erylium and the dragon have been able to brief Mokmutian on the tactics they observed the PCs employing in Sandpoint (lots of <i>scrying</i>, <i>greater invisibility</i>, teleport effects, a magus with a falcata and some obvious favourite spells) and this in turn is going to alter the defensive tactics of some of Jorgenfist's denizens - the lamia clerics in area B13 will be swapping out a 3rd-level spell each for <i>invisibility purge</i>, for example.</p>
<p>Looking at the <i>runeslave cauldron</i>, I'm wondering if there has been any firm statement made on how much time can pass between a giant's death and its resurrection as a runeslave? The item itself states that it works on a "the body of a freshly slain giant," and suggests that such giants need to be sacrificed quite deliberately to the <i>runeslave cauldron</i> for its magic to be effective; on the other hand, p. 224 of the <i>Anniversary Edition</i> states that Mokmurian plans to use it to essentially recycle battlefield casualties once his army begins its eventual march, which suggests that some time can pass between a giant's death and its transformation into a runeslave. If not firmly stated elsewhere, does 24 hours seem like a reasonable window of opportunity for this effect?</p>
<p>If the PCs make multiple forays against the giants and retreat after each with corpses in their wake, I think it makes sense for Mokmurian to take those corpses and feed them into the <i>runeslave cauldron</i>, punishing those giants who've displayed weakness through their failure and death; similarly, if the PCs make allies among the giants and Mokmurian discovers their treachery, conversion into a runeslave seems like quite the fitting punishment. If Mokmurian gets desperate, I think he might also sacrifice some of his weaker minions in this fashion, too, bulking out his forces with runeslave ogres and the like as disposable, obedient minions. The trick of course will be <i>getting</i> those corpses or giants to the cauldron in the first place, with the trap in area C2 presenting a pretty effective obstacle to most giants - maybe the stone golem can carry it to somewhere more accessible?</p>
<p>I'm keen to pack more 'weird stuff' into the dungeon levels of Jorgenfist so that my PCs don't get bored with encounter after encounter against giants, given the sheer number of ogres they fought in the third module. One idea I've had is an early necromantic experiment by both Mokmurian and Barl Breakbones in which they didn't have the broth in the <i>runeslave cauldron</i> quite right and what emerged from the process wasn't a runeslave but some form of undead creature - I'm thinking a stone giant bodak, with cracks and fissures in its charres flesh forming inert runic shapes, would make a nasty surprise if it's tucked away in some dead end or sealed-up cubby where it's easily avoided by the level's denizens but might be unwittingly stumbled upon by the PCs.</p>First up, many thanks to everyone who's offered commentary and advice, which has been invaluable to me here.
My PCs repelled the raid on Sandpoint, focusing first on Erylium (who got hit by a frigid touch from the falcata magus and escaped via magic) and then eventually on the dragon (again, frigid touch) but not before he'd had a chance to hit the garrison, cathedral, theatre, and the Hagfish. They largely ignored the groups of giants attacking the Two Knight Brewery and Scarnetti Manor,...TheOrganGrinder2020-02-27T12:32:06ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Askar Avari (alias of DevinTowerwood)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4462019-11-22T23:18:05Z2019-11-22T23:18:05Z<p><b>TheOrganGrinder</b>:</p>
<p>I'm glad the points I provided was helpful! If, ultimately, the PCs get the jump on Mokmurian, lock him down, kill him, and get out again safe - good on them! I think adding a few extra hurdles (as it looks like you're doing) will ultimately make a tactic like that more rewarding.</p>
<p>As a final note: if your party genuinely pulls this off, I think Karzoug may be a little more impressed than scripted. They'll have identified Mokmurian as a threat and eliminated him within days, shortly following Barl Breakbones' elimination. </p>
<p>Ultimately, these might be exactly the sort of resourceful people he needs to locate Runeforge and find out how Alaznist and the other Runelords may have survived the Cataclysm. While perhaps he wouldn't offer them a job (like I'm leading up to in my game), he might try to prompt them indirectly to searching for Runeforge and try and observe what they're doing through the <i>medallion</i> or other methods.</p>
<p>Also, I'm delighted to hear that Erylium and Lucrecia have survived in your game. My players killed Erylium, and they're deeply regretting it after reviving Nualia (and learning Erylium is a survivor of the cataclysm, something that means much more to them now than it did back in Book 1).</p>TheOrganGrinder:
I'm glad the points I provided was helpful! If, ultimately, the PCs get the jump on Mokmurian, lock him down, kill him, and get out again safe - good on them! I think adding a few extra hurdles (as it looks like you're doing) will ultimately make a tactic like that more rewarding.
As a final note: if your party genuinely pulls this off, I think Karzoug may be a little more impressed than scripted. They'll have identified Mokmurian as a threat and eliminated him within days,...Askar Avari (alias of DevinTowerwood)2019-11-22T23:18:05ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Roonfizzle Garnackle (alias of Roonfizzle)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4452019-11-22T16:12:02Z2019-11-22T16:12:02Z<p><b>TheOrganGrinder</b> Good luck! The good news is that there IS "Plot Prompt Magic" for killing Mok.</p>
<p><b>Ninja in the Rye</b> There are a couple entries that give details that help with things like Alert, Day, Night, particularly A6, B4, and B10, not much, but it gives you something to start with. As for Mok's club, I would treat it as written in the Other Gear section ... <i>unless</i> you feel your players are drastically over wealth, given that most AP's tend to run at ~2.5x expected wealth per level, as not every treasure will be FOUND, let alone looted, which makes it a good opportunity to re-balance things. Mok HAS the craft feats, so it's not as if he HAS to use the virtual feats from Arcane Bond.</p>TheOrganGrinder Good luck! The good news is that there IS "Plot Prompt Magic" for killing Mok.
Ninja in the Rye There are a couple entries that give details that help with things like Alert, Day, Night, particularly A6, B4, and B10, not much, but it gives you something to start with. As for Mok's club, I would treat it as written in the Other Gear section ... unless you feel your players are drastically over wealth, given that most AP's tend to run at ~2.5x expected wealth per level, as not...Roonfizzle Garnackle (alias of Roonfizzle)2019-11-22T16:12:02ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)TheOrganGrinderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4442019-11-22T15:58:54Z2019-11-22T02:19:17Z<p>Many thanks to everyone who's answered my concerns here; a big part of the reason I'm asking is that I'm relatively unfamiliar with these mid-to-high levels of <i>Pathfinder</i> in general and with running wizards at these levels in particular, so I don't have a good sense of the toolkit available to the class. Your insights here are invaluable to me.</p>
<p><b>Franke</b>, thank you for your point re: <i>mage's private sanctum</i>. I think Mokmurian lacks the caster level to use <i>permanency</i> to make the sanctum permanent (he can cast <i>permanency</i>, just not for that particular spell effect) but it's definitely the sort of thing I can imagine him casting daily. </p>
<p><b>Askar Avari,</b> thank you for your detailed set of points which I'll do my best to answer here.</p>
<p>1) I can definitely see Mokmurian making use of <i>detect scrying</i> in the way you've described and will add this to his tactics and defences.</p>
<p>2) I've interpreted possessions fairly broadly in the campaign thus far and under the expectations that I've established for my players, Mokmurian's missive to Barl ought to count as Mokmurian's possession for <i>scrying</i> purposes - my own fault, but I'd rather not move that particular goalpost at this stage.</p>
<p>3) I'm never quite sure just how much information Karzoug is supposed to have about the PCs at different stages in the campaign, how he gets it, or how much of it he shares with his underlings, though at this stage I think you're right that he'll share whatever he knows with Mokmurian once the raid on Sandpoint is foiled. I know that Karzoug himself can see through the senses of anyone wearing a known <i>Sihedron medallion</i>, which at this stage means Xanesha's medallion; my PCs haven't yet killed Lucrecia, nor decided what they're going to do with Barl's medallion. Lucrecia can use <i>dream</i> to pass a message directly "up the chain" to Mokmurian, Khalib, Ceoptra, or Karzoug himself, and the forces at Jorgenfist have access to <i>sending</i> to do the same.</p>
<p>The campaign book explains the capabilities that the villains have but seems to largely leave it up to individual GMs to decide to what extent and in what fashion they're using those. If nothing else, the module writers can't assume that Karzoug uses the <i>Sihedron medallions</i> to keep tabs on the PCs since it's entirely possible that the PCs will decide to sell them rather than keep them.</p>
<p>I've generally been playing Karzoug as hands-off with his more remote minions and occupied largely with events at Xin-Shalast; those remote minions in turn have taken something of a "don't bother the boss" approach to interacting with Karzoug, getting on with their assigned tasks and doing their best to handle problems by themselves rather than inviting the Runelord's displeasure by reporting on any trouble they've been having. I suppose the raid on Sandpoint might be precisely the point at which Karzoug decides to satisfy his curiosity as to just why the influx of greedy souls from Magnimar has ended...</p>
<p>Mokmurian has some unexpected help in the form of Erylium, who (in my campaign) survived the PCs' wrath and was witness to their slaying of Nualia, fled to Jorgenfist (I figure her <i>commune</i> ability and the proper set of questions are sufficient to direct her to the active temple of Lamashtu in the Jorgenfist caves as a place to rally) and will be accompanying Teraktinus to Sandpoint. She can certainly fill Mokmurian in on what she knows, even if the two have some philosophical disagreements re: greed vs. wrath.</p>
<p>4) I think this is going to depend on when the wizard PC casts <i>scrying</i> - assuming Mokmurian keeps to something resembling a regular sleep schedule, a daytime <i>scrying</i> will find him up and about in his laboratory, while at night he'll be asleep and in his <i>mage's private sanctum</i>.</p>
<p>5) The PCs don't need to kill Mokmurian outright in the round on which they teleport; <i>dimensional anchor</i>, <i>hold person</i>, or even a readied action to make a ranged attack, triggered when Mokmurian starts spellcasting, are all sufficient to foul up his ability to escape.</p>
<p>As far as not having all the information they need is concerned, my worry about the whole "jump to the end of the module, scry and fry the boss," tactic is, oddly enough, that they may not even know enough to <i>realise</i> that they're lacking crucial information about what to do next and the threats that are developing in areas they've yet to explore. Instead I worry that the defeat of Mokmurian may be a "job's done" sort of moment, leaving them satisfied in their victory and waiting for a plot prompt that doesn't arrive.</p>
<p><b>Roonfizzle Garnackle</b>, I'm definitely going to be sitting down with the player in question and the rest of the group when the opportunity presents itself, since this is the first time the situation has arisen in such a stark way. Nualia Tobyn, Xanesha, and Barl Breakbones are all potential surprises for PCs as the villains of their respective modules, whereas the party knows right from the stone giant raid on Sandpoint (or even before, depending on what questions they ask of Barl Breakbones) that there's a villain by the name of Mokmurian waiting for them at Jorgenfist.</p>
<p>You're quite right that this is the last opportunity they'll have to do this (<i>Sins of the Saviours</i> doesn't really have a 'main' villain to deal with in this way, and Karzoug himself is beyond the reach of <i>teleport</i> at the end of <i>Spires of Xin-Shalast</i>) and given that this is both their first and last opportunity to "scry and fry" in such a dramatic fashion I'd like to accommodate the wishes of the player who's keen on this tactic to at leat some extent, depending on course on just what the other players at my table have to say.</p>Many thanks to everyone who's answered my concerns here; a big part of the reason I'm asking is that I'm relatively unfamiliar with these mid-to-high levels of Pathfinder in general and with running wizards at these levels in particular, so I don't have a good sense of the toolkit available to the class. Your insights here are invaluable to me.
Franke, thank you for your point re: mage's private sanctum. I think Mokmurian lacks the caster level to use permanency to make the sanctum permanent...TheOrganGrinder2019-11-22T02:19:17ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Ninja in the Ryehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4432019-11-21T11:32:28Z2019-11-21T11:32:28Z<p>Another question, Mok's club is listed as his Arcane Bond, normally any abilities added to an item via Arcane bond go away when the wizard dies. </p>
<p>Are the magic abilities on the club from the Arcane Bond meaning the party will find a Masterwork Club after he dies, or is it a normal magical weapon and retains its magic?</p>Another question, Mok's club is listed as his Arcane Bond, normally any abilities added to an item via Arcane bond go away when the wizard dies.
Are the magic abilities on the club from the Arcane Bond meaning the party will find a Masterwork Club after he dies, or is it a normal magical weapon and retains its magic?Ninja in the Rye2019-11-21T11:32:28ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Seannosshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4422019-11-21T03:21:39Z2019-11-21T03:21:39Z<p>There are also the rules which back the fact that scry and fry doesn't work, unless you and your party enjoy that sort of thing of course.</p>
<p>In which case they may be wiped out by Karzoug at some point before they are anywhere near his level.</p>There are also the rules which back the fact that scry and fry doesn't work, unless you and your party enjoy that sort of thing of course.
In which case they may be wiped out by Karzoug at some point before they are anywhere near his level.Seannoss2019-11-21T03:21:39ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Ninja in the Ryehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4412019-11-21T03:01:41Z2019-11-21T03:01:41Z<p>Does the book cover the watch schedule for the Giants in the Watchtowers?</p>
<p>I don't recall any mention of what happens when they need to sleep or where any replacements come from.</p>Does the book cover the watch schedule for the Giants in the Watchtowers?
I don't recall any mention of what happens when they need to sleep or where any replacements come from.Ninja in the Rye2019-11-21T03:01:41ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Roonfizzle Garnackle (alias of Roonfizzle)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4402019-11-20T21:00:26Z2019-11-20T21:00:26Z<p>Just my two cents, but if you want to avoid Scry and Fry for the back half of the path, most of the books have SOME sort of "because reasons, bad idea", and you might take the following tactic.</p>
<p>"You managed to scry a massive figure, that appears to be deep in though poring over ancient tomes. Based on the architecture in the background, it appears he's holed up in some ancient structure. Probably Ancient Thasilonian. Make me a Knowledge History check. 25? You recall several spectacular failures of careless wizards doing long range teleportation into such structures they weren't intimately familiar with. While only about half were fatal, most were incredibly damaging to otherwise sterling reputations." </p>
<p>In this instance you can see that someone's tampered with the walls behind this monumental figure, in that they are strangely smooth, and you can't quite put your figure on why, but the dimensions of the room seem .... off." If they manage another good check, Perception or K Planes perhaps, or some such, you can toss the fact that someone went to great effort to make the room have zero corners or fixed angles. </p>
<p>This might make them more cautious. On the flip side, this might be one of the last places they can actually pull the tactic off. </p>
<p>Still better, this could just be resolved with an OOC conversation. Which results in more fun for EVERYONE at the table? (You included)</p>Just my two cents, but if you want to avoid Scry and Fry for the back half of the path, most of the books have SOME sort of "because reasons, bad idea", and you might take the following tactic.
"You managed to scry a massive figure, that appears to be deep in though poring over ancient tomes. Based on the architecture in the background, it appears he's holed up in some ancient structure. Probably Ancient Thasilonian. Make me a Knowledge History check. 25? You recall several spectacular...Roonfizzle Garnackle (alias of Roonfizzle)2019-11-20T21:00:26ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Askar Avari (alias of DevinTowerwood)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4392019-11-20T20:36:53Z2019-11-19T21:28:00Z<p>So, this may just be my personal philosophy on character building, but I'm very much under the impression that characters, especially Big Bads with decades of magical experience, are fairly good at protecting themselves - that's why they survive. While Mokmurian's spell kit is pre-outlined, those are spells he's prepared while expecting the PCs, not necessarily his daily kit.</p>
<p>What I'm getting at is: 1) Mokmurian should have <i>detect scrying</i> up. It's a 24-hour spell without am expensive material component, and it doesn't block scrying (which Karzoug uses to check in on his servants via the <i>sidhedron medallion</i>), and there's little reason for him not to have it. He'd drop this spell from his daily preparations if he's likely to be engaging in combat any day now, but from his study in Jorgenfist, this seems like a very smart spell to have on him.</p>
<p>2) I don't really think counting Mokmurian's note as a "possession" is necessary. It's something he wrote on briefly, not anything of significance - certainly not something impactful to cause a -4 to his save. That won't stop them from scrying, of course, but it might make the party give up on that tactic long enough for my next point:</p>
<p>3) The raid on Sandpoint was an order direct down from Karzoug - it <i>mattered</i> to him, and the party foiled it. If he has never scryed them in the past, this may prompt him to finally scry them and get a look at the 'Heroes of Sandpoint.' Once he has a basic gauge of what they look like, there's nothing stopping him from telling Mokmurian that there are 'new players' on the field, and that one of them is a wizard who may even be Mokmurian's equal (they should both be level 11 at this point - even if your PC isn't quite as accomplished as Mokmurian, achieving 6th level spells with a much shorter life than a stone giant should peak their interest).</p>
<p>4) I agree that Mokmurian likely has a <i>mage's private sanctum</i>, but I don't think he should be IN it when the party first scrys him - it should be where he sleeps, AKA where he wouldn't be able to protect himself if he was found.</p>
<p>5) If Mokmurian is caught totally unawares, there's nothing stopping him from using a <i>dimension door</i> to flee to find his general, giving him time to buff and putting the PCs at a disadvantage. Maybe they can make the "viewed once" teleport after getting a scry in, but even if they do - how likely are they to land a kill before Mokmurian's initiative?</p>
<p>Lastly - even if all of this is for naught and Mokmurian is found and killed, they won't have found all of the information they need yet, so you'll still have the chance to lead them into getting that.</p>So, this may just be my personal philosophy on character building, but I'm very much under the impression that characters, especially Big Bads with decades of magical experience, are fairly good at protecting themselves - that's why they survive. While Mokmurian's spell kit is pre-outlined, those are spells he's prepared while expecting the PCs, not necessarily his daily kit.
What I'm getting at is: 1) Mokmurian should have detect scrying up. It's a 24-hour spell without am expensive...Askar Avari (alias of DevinTowerwood)2019-11-19T21:28:00ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Frankehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4382019-11-19T18:11:45Z2019-11-19T18:11:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">TheOrganGrinder wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Speaking of entries to Jorgenfist... I'm just wrapping up <i>The Hook Mountain Massacre</i> now and thinking about how my group is likely to handle Mokmurian and Jorgenfist. They've got a scryer subschool wizard and setting aside the question of whether he'll want to pre-empt Teraktinus' assult on Sandpoint by <i>scrying</i> on the giant and launching a <i>teleport</i>-enabled surprise attack on the raiding party before it's in position, I'm thinking ahead to what other scry-and-teleport tactics he might employ.</p>
<p>Following the raid on Sandpoint, the PCs can interrogate one of the stone giants and should have a good idea that Mokmurian is, if not the "boss monster" of <i>Fortress of the Stone Giants</i>, at the very least a major mover-and-shaked at Jorgenfist and the architect of the raid on Sandpoint. For <i>scrying</i> purposes they have certainly heard of him (save DC +5, modified to 0 by the Scrying Adept supernatural ability of the divination arcane school) and have one of his possessions (the missive he wrote to Barl Breakbones, found at the end of <i>THMM</i>) which imposes a further -4 penalty on his saving throws, reducing his Will save of +15 to an effective +11 vs. a save DC that will be at least 20 at that stage in the campaign and may well be a point or two higher. It's quite possible that the PCs' very first attempt at <i>scrying</i> will succeed, and even if it doesn't, Mokmurian can't reliably make his saves.</p>
<p>Yes, he's a level 11 wizard and a CR 15 creature, but if the PCs use <i>scrying</i> and then <i>teleport</i>, they'll catch him without his buff spells active and based on past experience will take him apart on action economy alone.</p>
<p>So: what defences does (or might) Mokmurian have against <i>scrying</i> and/or <i>teleport</i>, and failing that, what are the implications of the PCs, armed with knowledge of the villain's name at the very start of the module, using those spells to confront him immediately and essentially skip past the entire module? </blockquote><p>I don't think it would be unreasonable for an accomplished mage, which Mokmurian certainly is, to have his quarters protected with a Mage's Private Sanctum spell. He also has the capacity to make the effect permanent. Whilst on his travels he could utilise the spell Non Detection, it all depends on how aware he is of your PCs abilities and perhaps how paranoid he is.TheOrganGrinder wrote:Speaking of entries to Jorgenfist... I'm just wrapping up The Hook Mountain Massacre now and thinking about how my group is likely to handle Mokmurian and Jorgenfist. They've got a scryer subschool wizard and setting aside the question of whether he'll want to pre-empt Teraktinus' assult on Sandpoint by scrying on the giant and launching a teleport-enabled surprise attack on the raiding party before it's in position, I'm thinking ahead to what other scry-and-teleport...Franke2019-11-19T18:11:45ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)TheOrganGrinderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4372019-11-19T13:25:16Z2019-11-19T13:25:16Z<p>Speaking of entries to Jorgenfist... I'm just wrapping up <i>The Hook Mountain Massacre</i> now and thinking about how my group is likely to handle Mokmurian and Jorgenfist. They've got a scryer subschool wizard and setting aside the question of whether he'll want to pre-empt Teraktinus' assult on Sandpoint by <i>scrying</i> on the giant and launching a <i>teleport</i>-enabled surprise attack on the raiding party before it's in position, I'm thinking ahead to what other scry-and-teleport tactics he might employ.</p>
<p>Following the raid on Sandpoint, the PCs can interrogate one of the stone giants and should have a good idea that Mokmurian is, if not the "boss monster" of <i>Fortress of the Stone Giants</i>, at the very least a major mover-and-shaked at Jorgenfist and the architect of the raid on Sandpoint. For <i>scrying</i> purposes they have certainly heard of him (save DC +5, modified to 0 by the Scrying Adept supernatural ability of the divination arcane school) and have one of his possessions (the missive he wrote to Barl Breakbones, found at the end of <i>THMM</i>) which imposes a further -4 penalty on his saving throws, reducing his Will save of +15 to an effective +11 vs. a save DC that will be at least 20 at that stage in the campaign and may well be a point or two higher. It's quite possible that the PCs' very first attempt at <i>scrying</i> will succeed, and even if it doesn't, Mokmurian can't reliably make his saves.</p>
<p>Yes, he's a level 11 wizard and a CR 15 creature, but if the PCs use <i>scrying</i> and then <i>teleport</i>, they'll catch him without his buff spells active and based on past experience will take him apart on action economy alone.</p>
<p>So: what defences does (or might) Mokmurian have against <i>scrying</i> and/or <i>teleport</i>, and failing that, what are the implications of the PCs, armed with knowledge of the villain's name at the very start of the module, using those spells to confront him immediately and essentially skip past the entire module?</p>Speaking of entries to Jorgenfist... I'm just wrapping up The Hook Mountain Massacre now and thinking about how my group is likely to handle Mokmurian and Jorgenfist. They've got a scryer subschool wizard and setting aside the question of whether he'll want to pre-empt Teraktinus' assult on Sandpoint by scrying on the giant and launching a teleport-enabled surprise attack on the raiding party before it's in position, I'm thinking ahead to what other scry-and-teleport tactics he might employ.
...TheOrganGrinder2019-11-19T13:25:16ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Adjointhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4362019-10-06T09:26:17Z2019-10-06T09:26:17Z<p>I'd say no, but you can make tem experience these opponents later, or you can get the opponents to come down to the library (Mokmurian may send the forgefiend to tell them they are needed downstairs). If the players are confident they are ready to face the boss while having enemies at their back, let them.</p>I'd say no, but you can make tem experience these opponents later, or you can get the opponents to come down to the library (Mokmurian may send the forgefiend to tell them they are needed downstairs). If the players are confident they are ready to face the boss while having enemies at their back, let them.Adjoint2019-10-06T09:26:17ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Callumhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4352019-10-06T08:50:17Z2019-10-06T08:50:17Z<p>My party scouted Jorgenfist using <i>arcane eye</i> and then <i>dimension doored</i> to the library area. My question is: should I award them XP for all the encouters they've bypassed? They are already lagging behind the expected advancement level somewhat.</p>My party scouted Jorgenfist using arcane eye and then dimension doored to the library area. My question is: should I award them XP for all the encouters they've bypassed? They are already lagging behind the expected advancement level somewhat.Callum2019-10-06T08:50:17ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Grglspyzxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4342019-09-06T00:27:06Z2019-09-06T00:27:06Z<p>My group entered through Jorgenfist through the caves and were ambushed by Enga in a wider section of tunnel before it opened up. She took advantage of the tight space and began the smackdown on the swashslinger. They managed to trip her right at her flee threshold so I had her detonate the necklace right there.
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Earlier, I had handwaved the fight with the redcaps, rolling 1d3 damage to each character, to account for the ambush. Turns out that damage was EXACTLY how much was needed to push the swashslinger into permadeath. I gave him options to choose from as far as an introduction point for his new character. He wound up being a Thassilonian scholar/adventurer in search of the library. Conna found him and spirited him into the library tunnel between levels. She has been tending Mokmurian more to keep him in the library. In the meantime, the player was supposed to play bad guys until he was introduced.
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The group decided to sneak to the library level, rather than make sure no one might come down after them... They have a bad habit of this.
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I get the feeling that they will truly discover why this is the Player Killer AP.</p>My group entered through Jorgenfist through the caves and were ambushed by Enga in a wider section of tunnel before it opened up. She took advantage of the tight space and began the smackdown on the swashslinger. They managed to trip her right at her flee threshold so I had her detonate the necklace right there.
Earlier, I had handwaved the fight with the redcaps, rolling 1d3 damage to each character, to account for the ambush. Turns out that damage was EXACTLY how much was needed to push the...Grglspyzx2019-09-06T00:27:06ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Ninja in the Ryehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4332019-08-25T04:27:57Z2019-08-25T04:27:57Z<p>I'm a bit confused about the shining child/door to the library hallway.</p>
<p>First there are things written on the walls that, if read, hit the player with calm emotions, there's no mention of a save? So just reading it causes the PC to be under calm emotions?</p>
<p>Then there the door. What is the DC to open the door? It's closed by an Arcane Lock, in 3.5 Arcane Lock simply locked something and made it impossible to open, but in PF rules AL says it creates a DC 20 lock or increases the DC of an existing lock by 10. The text mentions a key, which Mok has stolen. No mention of what the DC here is.</p>
<p>My players have the password from the Black Monk, so are going to use it. This doesn't seem to actually open the door though just turns off the Shining Child for one attempt to "force" the door? </p>
<p>So what is "forcing" the door open? Just trying to open it at all while it's locked? OR is it only if they're trying to pick the lock/break it down? Does attempting a dispell on the Arcane lock count as forcing it?</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Shifty Mongoose wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, that's what's keeping them there, and angry as well. </blockquote><p>Makes sense, thanks!I'm a bit confused about the shining child/door to the library hallway.
First there are things written on the walls that, if read, hit the player with calm emotions, there's no mention of a save? So just reading it causes the PC to be under calm emotions?
Then there the door. What is the DC to open the door? It's closed by an Arcane Lock, in 3.5 Arcane Lock simply locked something and made it impossible to open, but in PF rules AL says it creates a DC 20 lock or increases the DC of an...Ninja in the Rye2019-08-25T04:27:57ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)The Shifty Mongoosehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4322019-07-15T04:43:23Z2019-07-15T04:43:23Z<p>Yes, that's what's keeping them there, and angry as well.</p>Yes, that's what's keeping them there, and angry as well.The Shifty Mongoose2019-07-15T04:43:23ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Ninja in the Ryehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4312019-07-14T05:59:38Z2019-07-14T05:59:38Z<p>So the Hounds of Tindalos seem like a really interesting monster, but if I'm reading the room description correctly they'll be completely incapable of using their Angled Entry ability. Is this correct?</p>So the Hounds of Tindalos seem like a really interesting monster, but if I'm reading the room description correctly they'll be completely incapable of using their Angled Entry ability. Is this correct?Ninja in the Rye2019-07-14T05:59:38ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Allyxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4302018-10-12T06:50:47Z2018-10-12T06:50:47Z<p>The original book had her listed as a level 5 Cleric, the AE version we're running lists her as a level 5 Oracle, but doesn't go into specific build details. By my count there are 34 Paizo official Oracle Mysteries, and 34 Curses of which the Oracle picks 1 of each at creation, Faerie Fire is granted by 3 of these - 2 Mysteries and 1 Curse. While it is true hand picking the most beneficial options for a single encounter would seem to be metagaming, my understanding of the Oracle Class is that they are either just born that way (like a Sorcerer's bloodline) or something unexpected happens to them that makes them become an Oracle, it's not something the individual can actively choose, therefore any option is a feasible possibility.</p>
<p>My method of identifying where to cast Faerie Fire or Glitterdust is likely going to be a factor also, my original plan was cast Detect Magic and concentrate till round 2, but if he stays outside the 60' range that's not going to help, I'm guessing Perception checks to ID the square he's in is going to have a high DC: 0 base score from spell casting, +20 from invisibility, +1 per 10' of distance, so it's likely it won't make a jot of difference in any case unless the Sorcerer comes in close.</p>The original book had her listed as a level 5 Cleric, the AE version we're running lists her as a level 5 Oracle, but doesn't go into specific build details. By my count there are 34 Paizo official Oracle Mysteries, and 34 Curses of which the Oracle picks 1 of each at creation, Faerie Fire is granted by 3 of these - 2 Mysteries and 1 Curse. While it is true hand picking the most beneficial options for a single encounter would seem to be metagaming, my understanding of the Oracle Class is that...Allyx2018-10-12T06:50:47ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Latrecishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4292018-10-11T12:24:04Z2018-10-11T12:24:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Allyx wrote:</div><blockquote> Ok cool, so as long as my efforts to specifically engineer this vague encounter to the Giants advantage (within the listed parameters of the encounter) relies on poor tactics on the players part to actually work in any meaningful way, it won't come off as unfairly metagaming on my part right? </blockquote><p>Maybe... Chances are the pc's/players will trash the Maidens and their oracle leader without much thought or analysis. But if the oracle's abilities prove to be a thorn in their side, some questions about where those abilities come from might arise. And a whimsy oracle will likely come across as contrived or meta-gaming on your part. "Wait, the stone giant leader of the all female band is a fey-touched oracle with woodland powers? Is that what it says in the AP? You did that just to get faerie fire." I'd be inclined to make her a wizard (or sorcerer) who is another apprentice to Mokmurian. This would be consistent with Karzoug/Mokmurian bending Stone Giant culture back to the study of arcane magic. (And justifies giving her more spell flexibility.)Allyx wrote:Ok cool, so as long as my efforts to specifically engineer this vague encounter to the Giants advantage (within the listed parameters of the encounter) relies on poor tactics on the players part to actually work in any meaningful way, it won't come off as unfairly metagaming on my part right?
Maybe... Chances are the pc's/players will trash the Maidens and their oracle leader without much thought or analysis. But if the oracle's abilities prove to be a thorn in their side, some...Latrecis2018-10-11T12:24:04ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Adjointhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4282018-10-11T05:48:42Z2018-10-11T05:48:42Z<p>Jut a note, after they destroy one or two camps, the rest of them wouldn't stay put and wait to be slaughtered the next day. Unless the party can get rid of all of them at once, they'd better have a way of avoiding detection from the scouting parties that doubtlessly will be sent to locate the assailant.</p>
<p>Remember also that taiga giant Cinderma has Spirit Summoning ability, which, as a guard, she's likely using to have <i>see invisibility</i> 24/7. If she's still alive, she likely saw exactly what happened an can help the rest to find the PCs or to prepare a trap.</p>Jut a note, after they destroy one or two camps, the rest of them wouldn't stay put and wait to be slaughtered the next day. Unless the party can get rid of all of them at once, they'd better have a way of avoiding detection from the scouting parties that doubtlessly will be sent to locate the assailant.
Remember also that taiga giant Cinderma has Spirit Summoning ability, which, as a guard, she's likely using to have see invisibility 24/7. If she's still alive, she likely saw exactly what...Adjoint2018-10-11T05:48:42ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Allyxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4272018-10-11T03:09:30Z2018-10-11T03:09:30Z<p>Ok cool, so as long as my efforts to specifically engineer this vague encounter to the Giants advantage (within the listed parameters of the encounter) relies on poor tactics on the players part to actually work in any meaningful way, it won't come off as unfairly metagaming on my part right?</p>Ok cool, so as long as my efforts to specifically engineer this vague encounter to the Giants advantage (within the listed parameters of the encounter) relies on poor tactics on the players part to actually work in any meaningful way, it won't come off as unfairly metagaming on my part right?Allyx2018-10-11T03:09:30ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Latrecishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4262018-10-11T00:36:30Z2018-10-11T00:36:30Z<p>Define "terribly horrible." :)</p>
<p>If the 12th level sorcerer's plan is to fly at maximum range and pummel the Maidens with fireballs, the 5th level oracle can't do anything with faerie fire or glitterdust because the sorcerer will be totally out of range. Also, unless the oracle has see invisibility or some other method to detect the always invisible sorcerer, he/she couldn't target the sorcerer anyway given faerie fire is a 5' radius burst and there's almost no chance the oracle could guess where to target. And while glitterdust is a 10' radius burst, the sorceror had better be hundreds of feet out of range.</p>
<p>There really isn't much the giants can do to stop the sorcerer from bombarding them with impunity unless Mokmurian himself joins in - the forces at Jorgenfist don't really have much magical ability to counter a 12th level arcane caster. Engaging the giant army factions on the ground in combat - horrible idea. Engaging the giant army from the air while always invisible - fantastic idea. </p>
<p>Welcome to a common GM predicament - the particular group of pc's are well suited to exploit a notable/significant weakness in a set piece encounter in a published adventure. Either let the pc's pound them easily or adjust the encounter to make more of a challenge. My normal inclination is to let things run as is - sometimes the pc's have it easy, sometimes they have it hard (when they have a weakness or limitation.) And I take it as a challenge to puzzle out how the NPC's will respond to the strategy/tactics of the pc's.</p>
<p>In this case, Mokmurian has not ignored the air - he has the dragon, the roc's and maybe the harpies and wyverns as options. Except he mismanaged the relationship with the dragon (and the pc's have exploited that) and none of his aerial forces are good against high level spell power. I'd probably let the pc's pound the bejeebers out of the Maidens and the next day, Mokmurian is ready with fly, see invisibility, faerie fire, etc. And if the pc's do it again, he flies out, and hits the wizard with faerie fire (which has no save.) At that point the roc's can attack the sorcerer directly, etc.</p>Define "terribly horrible." :)
If the 12th level sorcerer's plan is to fly at maximum range and pummel the Maidens with fireballs, the 5th level oracle can't do anything with faerie fire or glitterdust because the sorcerer will be totally out of range. Also, unless the oracle has see invisibility or some other method to detect the always invisible sorcerer, he/she couldn't target the sorcerer anyway given faerie fire is a 5' radius burst and there's almost no chance the oracle could guess...Latrecis2018-10-11T00:36:30ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Allyxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4252018-10-10T19:10:51Z2018-10-10T19:10:51Z<p>My (12th level) party ended last session on the brink of open warfare on the Giant Army at Jorgenfist.</p>
<p>After some scouting, and a discussion with Longtooth (who survived Sandpoint with 4HP but has recovered all his health with natural healing) which has lead to the Dragon (aided with an extended Greater Invisibility spell) creating a distraction, and basically wiping out the two closest Stone Giant camps to his cave before flying away.</p>
<p>The party are currently split (their idea) with 3 characters sneaking to take out the Watchtower, and the Greater Invisibile, flying Sorcerer taking on the smallest camp - Minderhall's Maidens, the leader of which is a level 5 Oracle with no officially listed stat block.</p>
<p>Am I being a terribly horrible GM by making the Oracle a Whimsy Oracle with the Pranked curse and is granted Faerie Fire and Glitterdust as bonus spells to counter the Invisible Spellslinger?</p>
<p>Longtooth was the only survivor from the assault on Sandpoint, where the Sorcerer employed the same Invis/Fly/Fireball rinse repeat tactic, but Longtooth isn't really on good terms with Mokmurian as per the module.</p>My (12th level) party ended last session on the brink of open warfare on the Giant Army at Jorgenfist.
After some scouting, and a discussion with Longtooth (who survived Sandpoint with 4HP but has recovered all his health with natural healing) which has lead to the Dragon (aided with an extended Greater Invisibility spell) creating a distraction, and basically wiping out the two closest Stone Giant camps to his cave before flying away.
The party are currently split (their idea) with 3...Allyx2018-10-10T19:10:51ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)Tusk the Half-Orchttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4242018-06-24T14:19:39Z2018-06-24T14:18:14Z<p>So now the party is clearing out Jorgenfist after killing Mokmurian and intimidating most of the other giants into leaving. The dwarf monk killing Lokansir in 3 rounds in single combat in last week's session made quite an impression on Galenmir and the other stone giants who watched, so the general and Conna are leading the tribes away from Jorgenfist. They still had to fight the lamia priests and their charmed dragons - in which one of the lamias blinded the monk, and learned that blinding a monk with the blind-fight feat just means that he can ignore the miss chance from <i>Mirror Image</i> and kill you faster. Oops!</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>So now the party is clearing out Jorgenfist after killing Mokmurian and intimidating most of the other giants into leaving. The dwarf monk killing Lokansir in 3 rounds in single combat in last week's session made quite an impression on Galenmir and the other stone giants who watched, so the general and Conna are leading the tribes away from Jorgenfist. They still had to fight the lamia priests and their charmed dragons - in which one of the lamias blinded the monk, and learned that blinding a...Tusk the Half-Orc2018-06-24T14:18:14ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Fortress of the Stone Giants (GM Reference)blahpershttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hl59&page=9?Fortress-of-the-Stone-Giants#4232018-06-12T20:03:04Z2018-06-12T20:03:04Z<p>Nice—didn't sound like a letdown at all, just an awesome (if short) battle!</p>
<p>Kudos on having K kill M on the way out—can't leave someone with so much intimate knowledge in the hands of the PCs, "worms" or no.</p>Nice--didn't sound like a letdown at all, just an awesome (if short) battle!
Kudos on having K kill M on the way out--can't leave someone with so much intimate knowledge in the hands of the PCs, "worms" or no.blahpers2018-06-12T20:03:04Z