Japanese Names


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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While I was generally happy with the first issue of Rise of the Runelords, one thing seriously (seriously) irked me. The "Japanese" names.

While I'm sure "Ameiko", "Tsuto", and "Kaijitsu" sound 'Oriental' and 'Japanese' enough to satisfy most people that they are, in fact, real names, I speak Japanese and was half-horrified, half-disappointed to find the lack of effort that had gone into these names. None of them are real Japanese names; none of them mean anything, aside from sounding vaguely 'Oriental', as I've said.

What makes this all the more saddening is that there are plenty of real, cool, usable Japanese names, but the research was not done to incorporate them into Pathfinder. I understand, of course, that during the production of the first issue a number of other things (Dragon, Dungeon, Gamemastery, Gencon prep) were being undertaken and that perhaps not as much time was available for research as was necessary, but these names were for me a taint on an otherwise spotless presentation.

I would like to ask that in the future, Japanese names be researched before use (you can do so easily enough on the internet) so that they are proper, actual names. I'm perfectly willing to consult and/or create names if you were looking for a name with a specific meaning or sound, and could give you input on things like what names are peasant names and what names a lord or noble would be more likely to have.

Liberty's Edge

I just did a 'google' of all those names and got many results on each one. I don't know if they are japanese are not but they do exist.

That being said, It would not offend me if they used european or american sounding names that weren't real names, I would find it quite creative.

I don't see how this could offend you.


Agognon wrote:

I just did a 'google' of all those names and got many results on each one. I don't know if they are japanese are not but they do exist.

That being said, It would not offend me if they used european or american sounding names that weren't real names, I would find it quite creative.

I don't see how this could offend you.

Out of those three (Tsuto, Ameiko, and Kaijitsu), "Tsuto" is the only one that could actually be a name, and even then it would be a very queer, regional dialectic sort of thing. (After I read your post, I did find one Tsuto online.) I know many, many Japanese people, have heard probably thousands of Japanese names, and have never seen any of these used as names before.

Despite the fact that those words may appear as google entries (and Kaijitsu IS a word, just not a name), that doesn't mean they are names. Tsuto I suppose could be a name, but it would not be common or representational. Whether or not something exists on google is not an accurate representation of anything. (Most of those entries on 'Ameiko' were by Westerners who (surprise!) thought it was a 'Japanese-sounding' name.)

And I didn't say it offended me. I'm just a little...disappointed at the cultural misrepresentation.

The fact that you bring up Western names is interesting. Let's address that for a minute. If I say a Western-sounding name (Nualia), it doesn't necessarily have to mean something, it can just sound cool and that'll be alright whether or not it's a traditional name. For Japanese names, it's nice if it can sound cool, but it also has to be spellable in kanji. For example, take this name: Fujiko. Written in Japanese, it's ??, and literally means "Wisteria Girl". Something like Ameiko, however, can't plausibly be written in Japanese without sounding foreign and fake. You could probably write Ameko as ??, "Rain Girl", but that would also be an uncommon and strange name.

And whether or not Tsuto can in fact possibly be a Japanese name, I suspect that's more from coincidence than from the Pathfinder staff actually looking up the possibility of the name being Japanese.

Again, I don't mean to rain on anybody's parade or point fingers this way and that way, but I'd just like a little more care to be taken in the selection of Japanese names for future Pathfinder editions (if there are indeed plans to have any Japanese-named characters in said editions). That's all.

(hmm, sorry if the BBC doesn't accept the Japanese letters I typed in)

Scarab Sages

It could very well be that the authors were trying not to use real-world names, both to emphasise that this was not our Earth, and to avoid members of one particular racial group complaining of unfair stereotyping, especially if such an NPC were the villain (remember the Neimoidians of the Trade Federation, in The Phantom Menace...? I recall there was quite a stink over them...).

I personally prefer to use real-world names (sometimes with a twist), as it comes with accumulated 'baggage', which saves so much time, giving other players an immediate 'handle' on a character's race, climate, nationality, social level and profession, especially if accompanied by a nickname.
If the PCs are asked to pick up 'Surly Sigurd Snowfist', they should be able to pick him out in a crowded bar (assuming of course that said bar is not the favoured meeting-place of the bad-tempered northern barbarians' union...).


Yeah, the names could very well be Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese etc.

They aren't necessarily Japanese. And even if they're supposed to be, it isn't that big of a deal. Fantasy is, has, and always will necessitate making up names that sound good.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

They're not supposed to be "real" Japanese names. They're supposed to sound Japanese, to evoke that type of mythology and tradition, but they're not supposed to BE Japanese. There's no Japan in Golarion, after all.

Look at the "European" names; you'll see a few names that are "real" names, but for the most part they're made up as well. Names like Aliver, Chask, Nisk, Ilsoari, Veznutt, and Naffer (to take a random batch from the Sandpoint backdrop) are just as made up as names like Ameiko, Tsuto, and Kaijitsu. There's also a lot of Romany-sounding names for the Varisians that may or may not be "real-wolrd" inspired. Making up names is part of the world-building effort that we're going through, and for the most part, most of the NPC names you'll see in Pathfinder are going to be either made up or spelled in slightly variant ways from normal. Sure, you'll see more exotic real-world names like Nualia and Seoni and Kyra and Kendra pop up now and then, but most of them will be made up.

If you'd rather have authentic names for the asian characters in Burnt Offerings, by all means change them. Likewise, if "Chod" sounds dumb to you, change it to Chad.

In any event, it wasn't laziness that had me naming people Ameiko or Tsuto. It was actually the reverse—an attempt to evoke images and feelings of a real-world region and society without "cheating" and just using real-world names wholesale.

It's the same reason 3rd edition has alchemist's fire instead of greek fire, really.


MaxSlasher26 wrote:

Yeah, the names could very well be Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese etc.

They aren't necessarily Japanese. And even if they're supposed to be, it isn't that big of a deal. Fantasy is, has, and always will necessitate making up names that sound good.

If the name was Li Bai, I would say it could be Chinese.

If it was Joo-Seon, I would say it could be Korean.
If it was Anh Tuan, I would say it could be Vietnamese.

But those names are obviously attempting to sound Japanese.

And as I said in my earlier post, you can't just MAKE UP Japanese names. They have to be SPELLABLE with KANJI. The same rules for our Western-sounding names do not apply.


James Jacobs wrote:

They're not supposed to be "real" Japanese names. They're supposed to sound Japanese, to evoke that type of mythology and tradition, but they're not supposed to BE Japanese. There's no Japan in Golarion, after all.

Look at the "European" names; you'll see a few names that are "real" names, but for the most part they're made up as well. Names like Aliver, Chask, Nisk, Ilsoari, Veznutt, and Naffer (to take a random batch from the Sandpoint backdrop) are just as made up as names like Ameiko, Tsuto, and Kaijitsu. There's also a lot of Romany-sounding names for the Varisians that may or may not be "real-wolrd" inspired. Making up names is part of the world-building effort that we're going through, and for the most part, most of the NPC names you'll see in Pathfinder are going to be either made up or spelled in slightly variant ways from normal. Sure, you'll see more exotic real-world names like Nualia and Seoni and Kyra and Kendra pop up now and then, but most of them will be made up.

If you'd rather have authentic names for the asian characters in Burnt Offerings, by all means change them. Likewise, if "Chod" sounds dumb to you, change it to Chad.

In any event, it wasn't laziness that had me naming people Ameiko or Tsuto. It was actually the reverse—an attempt to evoke images and feelings of a real-world region and society without "cheating" and just using real-world names wholesale.

It's the same reason 3rd edition has alchemist's fire instead of greek fire, really.

James, I'm sorry to make a big deal out of this, and I totally understand where you're coming from, but I believe it's possible to make names that are NOT Japanese names and yet could still FEASIBLY be Japanese names.

While it's tempting to think that "Well, if I can just take names that sound Western and use them, then I should be able to just take names that sound Japanese and use them too", it doesn't really work that way, because Japanese names are not just spelled phonetically but also with kanji that carry meaning with them and have to be assignable to the phonetic grouping you have chosen as a name.

It's possible to create names that are writable in Japanese but are NOT Japanese names; such names would be the equivalent of something like Nualia: exotic but not impossible. It sounds like that's the kind of thing you were aiming for in your creation of "Japanese-sounding-but-not-Japanese" names.

Hmm, by the way, I love Nualia's name, to digress.


Takamori wrote:
MaxSlasher26 wrote:

Yeah, the names could very well be Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese etc.

They aren't necessarily Japanese. And even if they're supposed to be, it isn't that big of a deal. Fantasy is, has, and always will necessitate making up names that sound good.

If the name was Li Bai, I would say it could be Chinese.

If it was Joo-Seon, I would say it could be Korean.
If it was Anh Tuan, I would say it could be Vietnamese.

But those names are obviously attempting to sound Japanese.

And as I said in my earlier post, you can't just MAKE UP Japanese names. They have to be SPELLABLE with KANJI. The same rules for our Western-sounding names do not apply.

Okay, well I don't know enough about Asian naming cultures.

But at any rate, it's not important to be spelled with kanji. These are not Japanese names. As James Jacobs said, they're Varisian names that happen to be similar to the real world's Japanese names.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Takamori wrote:

James, I'm sorry to make a big deal out of this, and I totally understand where you're coming from, but I believe it's possible to make names that are NOT Japanese names and yet could still FEASIBLY be Japanese names.

While it's tempting to think that "Well, if I can just take names that sound Western and use them, then I should be able to just take names that sound Japanese and use them too", it doesn't really work that way, because Japanese names are not just spelled phonetically but also with kanji that carry meaning with them and have to be assignable to the phonetic grouping you have chosen as a name.

It's possible to create names that are writable in Japanese but are NOT Japanese names; such names would be the equivalent of something like Nualia: exotic but not impossible.

No worries. Again, if the names bother you, you should change them. And again, keep in mind that Ameiko is from Minkai, NOT Japan. There's cultural elements in Minkai that don't exist in Japan, just as there are other elements (notably magic) that don't exist in the real world. Kanji doesn't exist in Golarion any more than French or English or Russian writing. Differences in the ways their languages work from Japan are absolutely intentional. Ameiko and Tsuto and Kaijitsu certainly have meanings in the language of that land, just as does the name "Viskalai" (which is Sheriff Hemlock's original family name).

I chose Ameiko, Tsuto, and Kaijitsu 100% for their sounds, which is the same way I came up with ALL of the names in Burnt Offerings.

Nualia, in any event, IS a real name. Now and then I'll go against my own naming code.


James Jacobs wrote:
Takamori wrote:

James, I'm sorry to make a big deal out of this, and I totally understand where you're coming from, but I believe it's possible to make names that are NOT Japanese names and yet could still FEASIBLY be Japanese names.

While it's tempting to think that "Well, if I can just take names that sound Western and use them, then I should be able to just take names that sound Japanese and use them too", it doesn't really work that way, because Japanese names are not just spelled phonetically but also with kanji that carry meaning with them and have to be assignable to the phonetic grouping you have chosen as a name.

It's possible to create names that are writable in Japanese but are NOT Japanese names; such names would be the equivalent of something like Nualia: exotic but not impossible.

No worries. Again, if the names bother you, you should change them. And again, keep in mind that Ameiko is from Minkai, NOT Japan. There's cultural elements in Minkai that don't exist in Japan, just as there are other elements (notably magic) that don't exist in the real world. Kanji doesn't exist in Golarion any more than French or English or Russian writing. Differences in the ways their languages work from Japan are absolutely intentional. Ameiko and Tsuto and Kaijitsu certainly have meanings in the language of that land, just as does the name "Viskalai" (which is Sheriff Hemlock's original family name).

I chose Ameiko, Tsuto, and Kaijitsu 100% for their sounds, which is the same way I came up with ALL of the names in Burnt Offerings.

Nualia, in any event, IS a real name. Now and then I'll go against my own naming code.

I realise that the worlds are different, and that basically anything can be justified by saying "This isn't European, it's Varisian" or "This isn't Japanese, it's Minkaian" but it just pains me a little bit because I get all these images in my head of Pathfinder readers running around saying "but I'm SURE Kaijitsu is a Japanese name, I read it somewhere." Oh well.

If you ever feel like PMing me regarding a Japanese-sounding name you're making up to see if it can be finagled into a real-ish name while keeping the sound you want, I'd be delighted. Until then, I suppose I can consider "Minkai" to be a sort of Korea (no kanji) with people running around using Japanese-sounding names.

Hmm, was Sheriff Hemlock's family originally from Minkai? Viskalai brings me images of a cold northern realm, a sturdy and dour vodka-loving people...

btw, interestingly enough, "Minkai" can be written to mean "Bright World" in Japanese (pseudo-Japanese, anyway).

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Takamori wrote:

Hmm, was Sheriff Hemlock's family originally from Minkai? Viskalai brings me images of a cold northern realm, a sturdy and dour vodka-loving people...

btw, interestingly enough, "Minkai" can be written to mean "Bright World" in Japanese.

Hemlock's family is actually Shoanti; they're from the Storval Plateau or somewhere else locally. I mentioned him as an example of how words written in the Shoanti language have meaning; that concept certainly isn't limited to the Asian names in our world.

And as for Minkai, I'm not surprised that name sits better with you, since that name was created by Mike McArtor and Nick Logue, both MUCH greater scholars of the language than I.

And honestly, I can ceratinly try to do better making the names work better for the regions they're coming from. In the case of Burnt Offerings, there simply wasn't time to take that extra step, and I actually didn't even think about it. I've been making up names for NPCs for 4 years for Dungeon and other D&D products, and this is the first time I've heard this type of complaint, so it kind of caught me off guard.


James Jacobs wrote:
Takamori wrote:

Hmm, was Sheriff Hemlock's family originally from Minkai? Viskalai brings me images of a cold northern realm, a sturdy and dour vodka-loving people...

btw, interestingly enough, "Minkai" can be written to mean "Bright World" in Japanese.

Hemlock's family is actually Shoanti; they're from the Storval Plateau or somewhere else locally. I mentioned him as an example of how words written in the Shoanti language have meaning; that concept certainly isn't limited to the Asian names in our world.

And as for Minkai, I'm not surprised that name sits better with you, since that name was created by Mike McArtor and Nick Logue, both MUCH greater scholars of the language than I.

And honestly, I can ceratinly try to do better making the names work better for the regions they're coming from. In the case of Burnt Offerings, there simply wasn't time to take that extra step, and I actually didn't even think about it. I've been making up names for NPCs for 4 years for Dungeon and other D&D products, and this is the first time I've heard this type of complaint, so it kind of caught me off guard.

Thanks for your understanding. I've put together a quick guide to creating Japanese-sounding names (something to get ideas for especially the endings of names, if it would help or if you're interested):

FAMILY NAME:

Start With:
Mori-
Yama-
Ogi-
Tane-
Take-
Kaza-
Yanagi-
Numa-

End With:
-mura
-wara
-naka
-kawa
-da (or ta for Mori, Ogi, sa for Yanagi)
-mitsu
-naga
-machi
-saki

PERSONAL NAME: MALE

Start With:
Kazu-
Kiyo-
Hachi-
Masa-
Shichi-
Kou-
Shun-
Jirou-

End With:
-haru
-ya
-tarou
-emon
-suke

PERSONAL NAME: FEMALE

Start With:
Haru-
Hana-
Asa-
Chie- (also usable by itself)
Nao- (also usable by itself)
Yoshi-
Yu-
Kazu-

End With:
-ko
-mi
-e

The Exchange

Thanks for your understanding. I've put together a quick guide to creating Japanese-sounding names (something to get ideas for especially the endings of names, if it would help or if you're interested):

FAMILY NAME:

Start With:
Mori-
Yama-
Ogi-
Tane-
Take-
Kaza-
Yanagi-
Numa-

End With:
-mura
-wara
-naka
-kawa
-da (or ta for Mori, Ogi, sa for Yanagi)
-mitsu
-naga
-machi
-saki

PERSONAL NAME: MALE

Start With:
Kazu-
Kiyo-
Hachi-
Masa-
Shichi-
Kou-
Shun-
Jirou-

End With:
-haru
-ya
-tarou
-emon
-suke

PERSONAL NAME: FEMALE

Start With:
Haru-
Hana-
Asa-
Chie- (also usable by itself)
Nao- (also usable by itself)
Yoshi-
Yu-
Kazu-

End With:
-ko
-mi
-e

Please lighten up a little bit. If one was to use this guide they would be creating, "Japanese" names. The problem is that there isn't a Japan in this world. Mr. Jacobs has worked very hard to create a fantasy world for the players to play in and the GM's to run. The key here is that it is a FANTASY world, a world outside the one we live in. As has been said, if the names don't work for you, change them. Please don't try and limit this artists creativity by making him have to stop and consult a guide to proper names of the this world, when he is working in a world of, "his own creation".

John B

Scarab Sages

Takamori wrote:
And as I said in my earlier post, you can't just MAKE UP Japanese names. They have to be SPELLABLE with KANJI.

Um... yes he can. The writer can make up any name he wants...

Do you understand how hard it is to make up names for a campaign world? I do it for the games I run. Heck, it hard enough coming up with a good character name.
When I'm making up a name I want something that sounds a certain way without sounding lame. I like a group of names (like from the same country, race, or religion) to have some kind of "flavor" or way of relating to each other so when you hear/read it it can be recognized as belong to a country, race, or religion. Making up names is hard work and especially for the number of names that an Adventure Path uses... look at all the paces and NPC's that are in a book.
Try making up a set of names as an exercise. Write down all the names in Pathfinder #1. In the next column make up a new list.

I often try to think where a name came from when I'm reading a source book, trying to think what the author was thinking when they came up with it.

BTW: "Ameiko", "Tsuto", and "Kaijitsu" can all be spelled with Hiragana and Katakana. (I bet they could be done with Kanji too, but I'm really rusty from my 2 years of japanese.) The right syllables are used to make it sound japanese, which is really all that matters.


Please lighten up a little bit. If you'll note, I wrote that guide IF it would help and IF he were interested. Maybe it won't and maybe he's not. And yes, it is a fantasy world, but real-world cultures are being drawn on for the formation of that fantasy world. The world is not entirely his creation. The "Asia-land" of this world has a different name and different writing system, but if that's all that's different, it's merely pretend-fantasy, changing the name of something that's real-world or adding a few different customs in order to incorporate it into the fantasy world (a la Legend of the Five Rings). I obviously haven't seen full info on "Minkai" so I don't know how things are there. Maybe it's wildly original and will bear little resemblance to our real-world Japan. I'm not trying to denigrate James' efforts to create a new world or infringe upon his artistic creativity.

And please don't try to tell me what can and can't be written in Japanese. Hiragana is used in children's books for people who don't understand kanji yet. Real words, for the most part, are written in kanji that could then be read, syllabically, in hiragana (the kanji often have hiragana after them to round out the sound and supply the ending in the case of verbs and etc., but this is getting too complicated). The hiragana reading is derived from the kanji. Not the other way around. "Coca-cola", for example, can be written in hiragana or katakana. So can "Nualia". That doesn't make the words Japanese, whether or not they can "sound" Japanese to the average American. To me, what the names sound like is what an American "thinks" Japanese names sound like.

And yes, I do realise that it's not easy to come up with new names, especially when you may not know that much about Japan. I've offered to help and I created that list. Maybe that's unnecessary, and of course the writer can make whatever names they want. I'm not disputing that. But the names the writer is making are based on and made to sound like names from a REAL-world culture, and as such, should, in my opinion, adhere to some of the rules of naming in that real-world culture.

I'm not being a troll. I'm expressing a legitimate concern regarding cultural misrepresentation logically and politely, so please don't begrudge me my opinion in this, or lambast me for trying to crush the artistic integrity of the Pathfinder staff.


I suppose chiming in here at this point with "this isn't Earth, remember?" would not be terribly productive? Somebody grok the idea of "Fantasy"?


Takamori wrote:


James, I'm sorry to make a big deal out of this, and I totally understand where you're coming from, but I believe it's possible to make names that are NOT Japanese names and yet could still FEASIBLY be Japanese names.

Even reading this was a huge waste of time. Performing the actions you suggest would be a fantastically huge waste of time.


Dances With Worgs wrote:
I suppose chiming in here at this point with "this isn't Earth, remember?" would not be terribly productive? Somebody grok the idea of "Fantasy"?

Again, though it isn't Earth, it is drawing on Earth cultures for its inspiration. It is not an alien world.

And I'm glad to see what a...civilised...place the messageboards here are, drjones.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Esmeralda: What is your name?
Butch: Butch.
Esmeralda: What does it mean?
Butch: I'm American, honey. Our names don't mean sh*t.

:)

Contributor

Takamori: Thanks for the interesting breakdown of naming styles in Japanese culture. I found it interesting to read. I don't agree with the premise of your "problems" with the "Japanese" sounding names, but I found the information you posted worthwhile, thanks for putting it up.

Naming in a fantasy setting is completely subjective. It has nothing to do with reality at all. Minkai is not Japan, but rather a fantasy region with a few more source-nods from Asia than Europe (at least that's my understanding of the place thus far). It is not a perversion of Japanese language to use names like those included in Pathfinder 1. It is fantasicization of Asian naming conventions, that's all. Like naming a character in any other setting Tyban or Jurandros...not real names, just cool sounds...this isn't considered disrespectful to European cultures, so why should we worry about being disrepsectful to Asian cultures when we do the same thing. I think this is unfortunate breed of Orientalism (Edward Said...a very good read...that rhymed...curses), a treating of everything "Oriental" as fundamentally different from everything "Occidental." I think we shouldn't worry so much about this. This is just my opinion. Thanks again for posting the naming breakdowns in Japanese.


Nicolas Logue wrote:

Takamori: Thanks for the interesting breakdown of naming styles in Japanese culture. I found it interesting to read. I don't agree with the premise of your "problems" with the "Japanese" sounding names, but I found the information you posted worthwhile, thanks for putting it up.

Naming in a fantasy setting is completely subjective. It has nothing to do with reality at all. Minkai is not Japan, but rather a fantasy region with a few more source-nods from Asia than Europe (at least that's my understanding of the place thus far). It is not a perversion of Japanese language to use names like those included in Pathfinder 1. It is fantasicization of Asian naming conventions, that's all. Like naming a character in any other setting Tyban or Jurandros...not real names, just cool sounds...this isn't considered disrespectful to European cultures, so why should we worry about being disrepsectful to Asian cultures when we do the same thing. I think this is unfortunate breed of Orientalism (Edward Said...a very good read...that rhymed...curses), a treating of everything "Oriental" as fundamentally different from everything "Occidental." I think we shouldn't worry so much about this. This is just my opinion. Thanks again for posting the naming breakdowns in Japanese.

Nicolas,

Thanks for your comment.

It's interesting that you mention Orientalism, because that's something I see a lot of in D&D material (I could write a paper on it). I didn't want to bring up the word here because I assumed few people were familiar with it. Japanese names ARE fundamentally different from European names, though, and admitting that in no way Orientalizes them. They are different for factual and linguistic reasons, the largest of which, as I have said, is the need for the phonetics to match up with the kanji.

What smacks of Orientalism to me is when people can say something like "it sounds Japanese" or "who cares, it's just a fantasy world not the real world". Well no, it doesn't sound Japanese from a Japanese person's perspective, and no, it's not just a fantasy world, it has ties to the real world, or we wouldn't need Asian-sounding names at all.

In the end, it comes down to this: there's nothing wrong with names like Tyban or Jurandros because they wouldn't bother anyone. Nobody would look at them twice, besides thinking "that's an unusual name." But every single Japanese person I know would treat names like Kaijitsu with derision and nonplussed incredulity. My literature teacher at Waseda university, a middle-aged Japanese woman and enthusiastic scholar of the evils of Orientalism, would probably just sigh and look a little sad.

I don't know if your fiancee is really Japanese or if she's Hawaiian with a Japanese name, but if she's the first, you might ask her what she thinks of the names.

Sovereign Court

Takamori wrote:


Thanks for your understanding. I've put together a quick guide to creating Japanese-sounding names (something to get ideas for especially the endings of names, if it would help or if you're interested):

Wow... arrogant and snobbish much?

Mr. Jacobs explained that he was going for something that "sounded" Japanese, and he succeeded. If it can't be spelled in Kanji, well, there is no Kanji in Varisia, so that's not really a problem.
To write a little naming guide so he can do a better job... wow, you insulted me, and I wasn't even your target.
Let the man do his, that's his as in not yours, job. If you want a published adventure to have perfect Japanese spelling, I suggest you get to writing.


Stunty_the_Dwarf wrote:
Takamori wrote:


Thanks for your understanding. I've put together a quick guide to creating Japanese-sounding names (something to get ideas for especially the endings of names, if it would help or if you're interested):

Wow... arrogant and snobbish much?

Mr. Jacobs explained that he was going for something that "sounded" Japanese, and he succeeded. If it can't be spelled in Kanji, well, there is no Kanji in Varisia, so that's not really a problem.
To write a little naming guide so he can do a better job... wow, you insulted me, and I wasn't even your target.
Let the man do his, that's his as in not yours, job. If you want a published adventure to have perfect Japanese spelling, I suggest you get to writing.

But it only sounds Japanese to people who know nothing about what Japanese sounds like.

I wrote that so he could use it if he PLEASED.
Not to suggest that he MUST use it.
For the last. Time.
If you feel insulted, I apologise. That was not my intent.

Sovereign Court

Takamori wrote:
What smacks of Orientalism to me is when people can say something like "it sounds Japanese" or "who cares, it's just a fantasy world not the real world". Well no, it doesn't...

But it does sound Minkaian, and that's exactly what it's supposed to sound like.


Stunty_the_Dwarf wrote:
Takamori wrote:
What smacks of Orientalism to me is when people can say something like "it sounds Japanese" or "who cares, it's just a fantasy world not the real world". Well no, it doesn't...
But it does sound Minkaian, and that's exactly what it's supposed to sound like.

I've already acceded to that point in my conversation with Mr. Jacobs.

He said that he tried to make the names sound Japanese, though. So don't act like Minkai and Japan have no relation.


Takamori wrote:
It's interesting that you mention Orientalism, because that's something I see a lot of in D&D material (I could write a paper on it). I didn't want to bring up the word here because I assumed few people were familiar with it. Japanese names ARE fundamentally different from European names, though, and admitting that in no way Orientalizes them. They are different for factual and linguistic reasons, the largest of which, as I have said, is the need for the phonetics to match up with the kanji.

Thank you for your consideration, though I personally find it helps on these boards if you assume that everyone is as well read and intelligent as you are. We are all D&D players after all, which by definition means we can read and are open minded.

Orientalism needn't be an overt "ooh, look at the mysterious East." In fact I'd say that in an increasingly globalized world that form of Orientalism is becoming rarer and rarer. I far more commonly encounter subtle Orientalism in the form of white people who, out of a sense of post-colonial guilt (or an intense love of anime...), feel it is their duty to protect and preserve the culture of the poor helpless Asians as though they can't do it themselves. Fair enough maybe in the case of an Indonesian coastal village whose traditional way of life is (arguably) being decimated by coca-cola and fishing trawlers. But I think it's a bit much to apply that sort of paternalism to Japan, one of the most technologically advanced and deliberately westernized of the Asian nations.

Here's an example: The Last Samurai was an extremely popular film at the Japanese box office. Why do you think this was? It is woefully historically inaccurate, inserts an American hero into a key point in modern Japanese history, and the Japanese characters by and large do not behave the way fuedal Japanese people did. There are two possibilties here that I can see; Either the Japanese people have been brainwashed by cultural imperialism and are willing to swallow that misrepresenting tripe because they don't know any better, or maybe, just maybe, they are just like (most of) us and the vast majority of them can tell the difference between fantasy and reality and enjoy fantasy for what it is. My father is a professor of Ancient Greek military history. Did he walk out of 300 or get angry because it wasn't accurate? No, he loved it for what it was.

Takamori wrote:
What smacks of Orientalism to me is when people can say something like "it sounds Japanese" or "who cares, it's just a fantasy world not the real world". Well no, it doesn't sound Japanese from a Japanese person's perspective, and no, it's not just a fantasy world, it has ties to the real world, or we wouldn't need Asian-sounding names at all.

I think you misunderstand. Every fantasy world necessarily has ties to the real world. It is impossible for a human being to write a fantasy without referencing the real world - if you could no-one would understand the references and it would lose it's power as fantasy. Fantasy needs reality. The authors of Pathfinder use names that sound Japanese to westerners because they want to evoke a mythic Japanese feel to westerners. Mythic Japanese, not Japanese. And quite frankly Pathfinder is written by Americans, and by and large for Americans. So of course everything created by an American writer is going to be influenced by that. The names the authors invent sound mythically Japanese to Americans, and that's what they are meant to achieve. That is more important for Pathfinder's purposes than linguistic accuracy, and rightly so.

Takamori wrote:
In the end, it comes down to this: there's nothing wrong with names like Tyban or Jurandros because they wouldn't bother anyone. Nobody would look at them twice, besides thinking "that's an unusual name."

No. The people who encounetr these names think "oh a fantasy name. That's to be expected because I'm reading a fantasy book." The only time I would think Tyban is an unusual real name is if I read it in a history book.

Takamori wrote:
But every single Japanese person I know would treat names like Kaijitsu with derision and nonplussed incredulity. My literature teacher at Waseda university, a middle-aged Japanese woman and enthusiastic scholar of the evils of Orientalism, would probably just sigh and look a little sad.

I find it extremely hard to believe that the average Japanese fantasy reader would be irritated by fake Japanese-sounding names. Though funnily enough I find it easy to believe that a western student of Japanese language and culture would.

And yes, naming conventions the world over are different, but I would like to take issue with the sentiment being bandied about here that western names are meaningless. They are not. No culture has a widespread practice of making up words that sound cool for names. Individuals might, but by and large names in cultures have meanings. They are names AND words. Does the average Pierre in France walk around with the sense that his name is "Stone?" Of course not, it's his name, Pierre. Likewise I am James, not "Supplanter" and Momoko isn't wandering around thinking of herself as being called "Peach Baby." Japan is not a special case. Humans are Humans.

I'm with Nick, I think you need to be careful Takamori that you aren't the one being paternalistic on this issue.


Takamori wrote:

While I was generally happy with the first issue of Rise of the Runelords, one thing seriously (seriously) irked me. The "Japanese" names.

Well, I play in french, I have to change most names to make them sound good. If you don't like the names, just make them better! Commercial adventures are just guidelines.


kahoolin wrote:
Orientalism needn't be an overt "ooh, look at the mysterious East." In fact I'd say that in an increasingly globalized world that form of Orientalism is becoming rarer and rarer. I far more commonly encounter subtle Orientalism in the form of white people who, out of a sense of post-colonial guilt (or an intense love of anime...), feel it is their duty to protect and preserve the culture of the poor helpless Asians as though they can't do it themselves. Fair enough maybe in the case of an Indonesian coastal village whose traditional way of life is (arguably) being decimated by coca-cola and fishing trawlers. But I think it's a bit much to apply that sort of paternalism to Japan, one of the most technologically advanced and deliberately westernized of the Asian nations.

First of all, thank you for your wonderful, intelligible, and sensible reply, despite its insinuations.

Please don't misunderstand, though. I've lived in Japan for years, consider myself as much Japanese as "Western", and I don't feel any patriotic paternal duty to "protect and serve" the cultural interests of my country.

What I do feel, as both a student of linguistics and an English grammarian who leans toward the conservative, is a burning desire that it be gotten right. (And when I say that I lean toward the conservative, I mean that spelling errors should be punishable by five lashes.) You mentioned The Last Samurai, which I saw several times in cinematheques in Japan. I loved that movie, as did my friends. We watched it three times, and not because it's historically accurate. It's woefully inaccurate (though I actually doubt the average viewer fully understood that). But it's moving. The characters did behave somewhat like feudal Japanese, albeit in very simple and sometimes Hollywood-ized ways (and the random ninja attack caused me physical pain), but the problem was that it wasn't a feudal period and that the gist of the story itself had very little to do with Takamori Saigo, whom it purported to tell the tale of, and who, incidentally, has nothing to do with my name.

Well. So something can be all right even if it's not perfectly accurate, you say? Yes. But something about grammatical or linguistic inaccuracies seriously bothers me. If the hero's name had been Kaijitsu instead of Katsumoto, that movie would have failed miserably at the [Japanese] box office, mark my words.

'kahoolin' wrote:
I think you misunderstand. Every fantasy world necessarily has ties to the real world. It is impossible for a human being to write a fantasy without referencing the real world - if you could no-one would understand the references and it would lose it's power as fantasy. Fantasy needs reality. The authors of Pathfinder use names that sound Japanese to westerners because they want to evoke a mythic Japanese feel to westerners. Mythic Japanese, not Japanese. And quite frankly Pathfinder is written by Americans, and by and large for Americans. So of course everything created by an American writer is going to be influenced by that. The names the authors invent sound mythically Japanese to Americans, and that's what they are meant to achieve. That is more important for Pathfinder's purposes than linguistic accuracy, and rightly so.

This is rather what I wanted to hear. I suppose the real fact of it is that I'm not the target audience of Pathfinder. Pathfinder is written by Americans, for Americans, in American English, with American presuppositions and engineered for American conceptions as to what Japanese names sound like. I can swallow that. It's a bit bitter, but I can swallow it.

'kahoolin' wrote:
I find it extremely hard to believe that the average Japanese fantasy reader would be irritated by fake Japanese-sounding names. Though funnily enough I find it easy to believe that a western student of Japanese language and culture would.

I don't know any Japanese fantasy readers, but I don't think MOST Japanese people would be irritated by it per se. I think they'd be incredulous. The first response would be "huh??" They would laugh at it for a second and forget about it. It personally irritates me, though, not because it infringes upon Japanese culture, but because it's linguistically an abomination (though I mean that in the nicest possible way).

'kahoolin' wrote:
And yes, naming conventions the world over are different, but I would like to take issue with the sentiment being bandied about here that western names are meaningless. They are not. No culture has a widespread practice of making up words that sound cool for names. Individuals might, but by and large names in cultures have meanings. They are names AND words. Does the average Pierre in France walk around with the sense that his name is "Stone?" Of course not, it's his name, Pierre. Likewise I am James, not "Supplanter" and Momoko isn't wandering around thinking of herself as being called "Peach Baby." Japan is not a special case. Humans are Humans.

I couldn't agree with you more. All names mean something. It's just that Western names have more obscure origins when compared to Japanese names because you can't readily see the meaning of the name. It's hidden by the mists of history and the rapidly changing landscape of Romance languages. One of the characters in a story I'm currently writing is named "Grama", a bit of a pun using an Anglo-Saxon word to reveal some of his nature; I enjoy such things. Though I would translate Momoko as something more like "Peach Girl" or "Peach Child". "Peach Baby" sounds a little...weird. Ugly name, anyway.

Japan IS a special case, though, at least when compared to Western names, because, as I have said, the kanji need to match the syllabic reading. There are two layers that have to match up. We don't have that over here. (Although I suppose I could be even more nitpicky and suggest that the etymological meanings of all Western names used be researched, I do believe many many more stones would be thrown my way if I suggest that.) The difference between the two is that if Japanese names don't match up, it's glaringly obvious. Because etymological meanings are generally obscure to the average Westerner, it doesn't make too much difference if the name is meaningless unless they look it up.

In any case, I've said my piece; my voice has been heard and I'm not one to beat a dead goblin. I won't cancel my subscription to Pathfinder because of this, and I'll still enjoy it for what it is, but I'll probably change those Japanese-ish characters to normal Varisians.

I'd like to thank Snorter, James, Dances With Worgs, Nicolas, and yourself for your polite and thoughtful comments. I do appear to have offended a large number of people, for which I am not half so sorry as I ought to be.


Dude, don't apologize, speaking from the perspective of a linguist, this was an awesome thread! I just wished you guys had thrown Said around a little more because nothing gives me more joy than watching people bash each other with Orientalism.

The Exchange

Takamori wrote:

I do appear to have offended a large number of people, for which I am not half so sorry as I ought to be.

Listen I don't write all that often in these boards. But I do feel you should be sorry for your actions. You have taken things much too far. Modual writers are not linguists and they have the right to get it close without getting it perfect. Especially if it is the intent not to have it perfect which Mr. Jacobs wrote out explicitly in the beginning. We could have a long drawn out exposition of linguistically plausible names but it doesn't actually help the situation any if you are not one of the writers. You seem well versed and intelligent in your statements. Instead of complaining why don't you look up the submission guidelines and write something yourself. Maybe a guide to names in the region, submit it soon enough and who knows maybe it will in up in the next AP.


Crimson Jester wrote:
Takamori wrote:

I do appear to have offended a large number of people, for which I am not half so sorry as I ought to be.

Listen I don't write all that often in these boards. But I do feel you should be sorry for your actions. You have taken things much too far. Modual writers are not linguists and they have the right to get it close without getting it perfect. Especially if it is the intent not to have it perfect which Mr. Jacobs wrote out explicitly in the beginning. We could have a long drawn out exposition of linguistically plausible names but it doesn't actually help the situation any if you are not one of the writers. You seem well versed and intelligent in your statements. Instead of complaining why don't you look up the submission guidelines and write something yourself. Maybe a guide to names in the region, submit it soon enough and who knows maybe it will in up in the next AP.

That's "module". Five lashes.

(I'm just kidding, you needn't use one of your daily Rages.)


I'm reminded, in a weird way, of the manga/anime Death Note, which suffers from precisely the reverse problem.

The author of Death Note has made up a large number of "Western" names for his non-Japanese characters, the vast majority of which are *complete gibberish*. One of the major players, a British guy, is named "Quillsh Wammy." Really.

This seriously disorients me, because these are supposed to be American or British or whatever people and their names just snap me completely out of the suspension of disbelief in an otherwise very well done story.

Similarly, the pseudo-Japanese names in Legend of the Five Rings annoy me because it's a consciously Japanese culture and the names just don't quite work.

On the other hand, the fractured names in Burnt Offerings -- Asianeque and non -- don't bother me much, because there's no strong connection to real-world cultures being made. It might bother me more if Ameiko's homeland is subsequently presented as strongly Japanese, but for now I'm strangely comfortable with it. :)


Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I'm reminded, in a weird way, of the manga/anime Death Note, which suffers from precisely the reverse problem.

The author of Death Note has made up a large number of "Western" names for his non-Japanese characters, the vast majority of which are *complete gibberish*. One of the major players, a British guy, is named "Quillsh Wammy." Really.

Ew. I've never read that, but it sounds...prickly.

I should go find some forum about it in Japanese and start a thread about "Quillsh Wammy" similar to this one.


Probably won't do much good at this point, since Death Note is complete and done, but hey, feel free. :) There's a long tradition of using rather strange Western names in anime. (Bright Noah from original Gundam -- not Noah Bright, either, his son is Hasaway Noah; Max Jenius in Macross; Marvel Frozen from Dunbine... I could go on...)


Takamori wrote:
First of all, thank you for your wonderful, intelligible, and sensible reply, despite its insinuations.

yeah sorry about that. I too am a university trained linguist (that makes three of us in this thread?) but I am firmly in the descriptivist camp. Few things irritate me so much as calls for "rightness" in grammar and/or spelliing, so I guess we were bound to step on each other's toes eventually. I just didn't like the way you implied that the author's creative playing with Japanese phonetics was some kind of Orientalism. No hard feelings though, this is an interesting discussion :)

Please forgive the selective quotation.

Takamori wrote:

What I do feel, as both a student of linguistics and an English grammarian who leans toward the conservative, is a burning desire that it be gotten right. (And when I say that I lean toward the conservative, I mean that spelling errors should be punishable by five lashes.)

...But something about grammatical or linguistic inaccuracies seriously bothers me.

Fair enough. You have a personal preference for prescriptivist language. I can handle that. I still don't see how taking issue with fantasy literature fits into that though. By definition fantasy is incorrect, if we take correct to mean something like "represents reality".

Takamori wrote:
This is rather what I wanted to hear. I suppose the real fact of it is that I'm not the target audience of Pathfinder. Pathfinder is written by Americans, for Americans, in American English, with American presuppositions and engineered for American conceptions as to what Japanese names sound like. I can swallow that. It's a bit bitter, but I can swallow it.

As Angelache said, he (she?) frequently has to change names because they don't have the same flow in French as they do in English. These fantasy names are like poetry - they are crafted deliberately to evoke a feeling rather than to contain a meaning, and I think it's a little unfair to expect that to translate across languages. It all boils down to the fact that the writers of Pathfinder aren't taking Japanese readers into account to anywhere near the same extent they are American readers. And can you honestly expect them to? You yourself said you don't know any Japanese fantasy readers.

Takamori wrote:
Though I would translate Momoko as something more like "Peach Girl" or "Peach Child". "Peach Baby" sounds a little...weird. Ugly name, anyway.

Heh, that was my own idiosyncratic translation. But it serves as an example of the fluidity of language. I could argue that ko has no meanng beyond "feminine diminutive" and could thus be glossed as "little one", "child," "girl" or "baby" in general use. This is OT, but I simply don't believe that accuracy between languages is possible to any great degree.

Takamori" wrote:
Japan IS a special case, though, at least when compared to Western names, because, as I have said, the kanji need to match the syllabic reading. There are two layers that have to match up. We don't have that over here. (Although I suppose I could be even more nitpicky and suggest that the etymological meanings of all Western names used be researched, I do believe many many more stones would be thrown my way if I suggest that.) The difference between the two is that if Japanese names don't match up, it's glaringly obvious. Because etymological meanings are generally obscure to the average Westerner, it doesn't make too much difference if the name is meaningless unless they look it up.

Yes, all of that is true, BUT as James said ages ago, there are no kanji in Pathfinder. Perhaps the Menkaians (or whatever they're called) have an alphabet and the shape of their language just happens to recall the sound of Japanese in our world. I just don't get how you go from desiring linguistic correctness in real life to wanting fantasy to conform totally to the real world. Still, we're all entitled to our opinion. You can be irritated by the inaccuracy of Pathfinder and I can be irritated by your suggestion that the authors should be constrained by the limits of "correct" Japanese.

Takamori wrote:
I'd like to thank Snorter, James, Dances With Worgs, Nicolas, and yourself for your polite and thoughtful comments.

No worries. I've enjoyed talking about this and sorry if I came off a bit snarky.


Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Probably won't do much good at this point, since Death Note is complete and done, but hey, feel free. :) There's a long tradition of using rather strange Western names in anime. (Bright Noah from original Gundam -- not Noah Bright, either, his son is Hasaway Noah; Max Jenius in Macross; Marvel Frozen from Dunbine... I could go on...)

Maybe that's why I don't watch anime very much? :(

I suppose I've seen Miyazaki's old "Lupin III: The Castle of Cagliostro" and "The Crimson Pig", and their names didn't strike me as absurd (at least, not to my remembering).


kahoolin wrote:
yeah sorry about that. I too am a university trained linguist (that makes three of us in this thread?) but I am firmly in the descriptivist camp. Few things irritate me so much as calls for "rightness" in grammar and/or spelliing, so I guess we were bound to step on each other's toes eventually. I just didn't like the way you implied that the author's creative playing with Japanese phonetics was some kind of Orientalism. No hard feelings though, this is an interesting discussion :)

As long as we agree to disagree, you can play Faulkner and I'll play Henry James. ;P

(Although I am of that sect of Queen's English that spells it 'connection', not 'connexion'.)

And as for the Orientalism, I was referring more to the general Legend of the Five Rings, Monk class, etc. The names in question got blown a bit out of proportion. In the end, I brought my opinion to the attention of the writers, who have politely stored it in the backs of their brains along with whatever else they were thinking about when browsing the boards, and that's all I can ask for.

'kahoolin' wrote:


Fair enough. You have a personal preference for prescriptivist language. I can handle that. I still don't see how taking issue with fantasy literature fits into that though. By definition fantasy is incorrect, if we take correct to mean something like "represents reality".

I'd like fantasy to be as realistic as possible, despite the unrealistic inclusion of monsters and magic...maybe that's why I often run low-magic worlds.

Oh, but wouldn't the world be more interesting if there were ogres?

The Exchange

Modual Module...Woo is me so much for spell checker


In Takamori's defense, I must admit that a lot of D&D material that is supposed to have an "Asian" flavor rather grates on my nerves as well, for some of the same reasons. Both the Five Rings stuff and Kara-Tur seem to have this effect on me. I recognize that this is the purist, Orientalist strain in me, though--and every time I contemplate running a campaign in some sort of mythic China, I realize how difficult it is for a foreigner, even one who has made a life of studying the culture, to achieve a high level of authenticity in recreating that culture through fiction, let alone do so while incorporating fantasy elements. Lafcadio Hearn and Robert Van Gulik seem authentic to the average English-language reader, but a scholar looking for problems of an Orientalist nature will find them in spades.

Mostly I try to remember that I would have completely bought the Asian flavor of Five Rings and Kara-Tur when I was in high school--it's just harder to do after decades of reading about China and Japan and studying the languages. And, as has been pointed out above, Asian fantasies (using the term broadly to include the kind of imagined worlds put forth in manga and anime) that are designed to have an "Occidental" flavor to their audiences often seem downright silly to us. I suspect some of these problems can be detected to a lesser extent with respect to other cultural translations that go on in D&D. We'll have to ask Vatnisse what he thinks of the quasi-Scandinavian flavored creations of the D&D world, like the Frost Barbarians and their ilk in Greyhawk.


Takamori wrote:
you can't just MAKE UP Japanese names. They have to be SPELLABLE with KANJI.

Um....they aren't Japanese Names...they are names from a culture in a FANTASY setting that ISN'T JAPAN, and DOESN'T use Kanji. Therefore they DON'T need to be spellable using a real world system of writing.

Relax, man. Change the names if they offend you that much, and from your attitude, they offend you. If you don't like them that much, stop buying the AP. These guys are trying to produce a great setting THAT ISN'T MODERN EARTH. If they cowtow to your demands to change the oriental sounding names to be precisely Japanese, then they should also change all the Westernish names to be exactly the western names. Perhaps they should change Varaisa to Romania?

D&D has always been a game of creating names and countries and cultures that borrow from what we know.


Chris Manos wrote:


Um....they aren't Japanese Names...they are names from a culture in a FANTASY setting that ISN'T JAPAN, and DOESN'T use Kanji. Therefore they DON'T need to be spellable using a real world system of writing.

Relax, man. Change the names if they offend you that much, and from your attitude, they offend you. If you don't like them that much, stop buying the AP. These guys are trying to produce a great setting THAT ISN'T MODERN EARTH. If they cowtow to your demands to change the oriental sounding names to be precisely Japanese, then they should also change all the Westernish names to be exactly the western names. Perhaps they should change Varaisa to Romania?

D&D has always been a game of creating names and countries and cultures that borrow from what we know.

Good God, this has been covered, I believe.

Was I making...demands? Really?
Because they sounded more like polite suggestions and opinions to me.

And it's "kowtow". Five lashes.
(I'm just kidding, you needn't use one of your daily Rages.)

Beastly verb, anyhow.

'Peruhain of Brithondy' wrote:


I suspect some of these problems can be detected to a lesser extent with respect to other cultural translations that go on in D&D. We'll have to ask Vatnisse what he thinks of the quasi-Scandinavian flavored creations of the D&D world, like the Frost Barbarians and their ilk in Greyhawk.

My opinion on such misrepresentations would be the same. Unfortunately, Japanese is the only subject which I'm truly qualified to discuss.


If a Japanese writer chose to make up names for a Western fantasy character that didn't make sense to me, I wouldn't give two cents. Why do we feel a need to "protect" other cultures in a fantasy setting, but give free reign to slice, dice, and otherwise "misinterpret" Western culture and civilization. We are talking about a game that mixes mermaids, centaurs, gnomes, dragons, and all other kinds of myths across various cultures. Many of the made up names of several campaign settings are unlike anything I've seen before and I couldn't tell you what "culture" they are imitating.

I think trying to be ultra-careful in the name of Orientalism can be stultifying to creativity. If someone had told Shakespeare to be more careful about anglicizing Italian names next time he writes a Romeo & Juliet, he probably would have laughed and said he didn't have time to worry about being "accurate" 100% of the time. And would the world be a better place if Juliet had been called "Giulietta"? Would Italians be less offended?

I don't worry about "Occidentalism". Maybe I would if I lived in China or Japan and witnessed it firsthand, but I doubt it. I would probably just shrug it off. I remember watching Miyazaki's Kiki's Delivery Service and wondering what European town it's supposed to be based on. In truth, it's a stereotype of European utopianism and really doesn't reflect anything in truth except on a superficial level. And it doesn't bother me. I think the movie is beautiful.

It's inevitable that one culture will misread another, and this practice spans across time and country. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as the mix of cultures can bloom a new culture, or a beautiful and exciting fantasy setting like Golorian. Some of the most beautiful works of art in the world are based on one culture's superficial portray of another.


Peruhain of Brithondy wrote:
I realize how difficult it is for a foreigner, even one who has made a life of studying the culture, to achieve a high level of authenticity in recreating that culture through fiction, let alone do so while incorporating fantasy elements.

Yes, let's be fair here; as Whimsy Chris alluded, the same is true of the psuedo-European stuff that forms the staple of D&D. The technology level is a wildly anachronistic mishmash; the "feudal" systems don't resemble Dark Ages Europe any more than they do the Renaissance, and (this coming from a guy who has read both Eddas and as many of the Icelandic sagas as he could lay hands on) the "viking" stuff is often as off-base from the mythic guys of the sagas as it is off from the historical reality. My name is Erik, "honorable ruler," it has historical antecedents and connotations, but I wouldn't name a character that. Furthermore, I'm not "offended" when someone chooses to play a barbarian named Oglias Ulgarf or something equally silly (I've done so myself, in fact). Various forms of Oriental snobbery are no more appropriate than European snobbery would be coming from me or from Stefan or from Magdalena (to name a few cultural and/or literal northern Europeans on the boards). For anyone who insists on linguistic or cultural accuracy, go nuts, but why stop at the psuedo-Japanese stuff, instead of cleaning house with respect to the psuedo-Eurpoean stuff as well?


Whimsy Chris wrote:
Why do we feel a need to "protect" other cultures in a fantasy setting, but give free reign to slice, dice, and otherwise "misinterpret" Western culture and civilization. We are talking about a game that mixes mermaids, centaurs, gnomes, dragons, and all other kinds of myths across various cultures.

Ooh! You put your finger on my biggest D&D-related gripe.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Various forms of Oriental snobbery are no more appropriate than European snobbery would be coming from me or from Stefan or from Magdalena (to name a few cultural and/or literal northern Europeans on the boards). For anyone who insists on linguistic or cultural accuracy, go nuts, but why stop at the psuedo-Japanese stuff, instead of cleaning house with respect to the psuedo-Eurpoean stuff as well?

I'm all for European snobbery. Let's clean the whole house, shall we?

You are uniquely situated to tell me how the European side of things can be improved upon. Can you give me any thoughts or ideas; things you see as wrong or inaccurate on the European side but never bothered to look at twice? I would really, truly love to hear such things.


Takamori wrote:
I'm all for European snobbery. Let's clean the whole house, shall we? You are uniquely situated to tell me how the European side of things can be improved upon. Can you give me any thoughts or ideas; things you see as wrong or inaccurate on the European side but never bothered to look at twice? I would really, truly love to hear such things.

Let's start with elves, dwarves, trolls, frost giants, fire giants, dark elves (the "Dokk-Alfar" of Svartheim), and the like. D&D uses the familiar Tolkien versions of elves and dwarves, not the Scandinavian mythological versions. The regenerating D&D troll is from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, a psuedo-Charlemagnian fantasy. The D&D "drow" and their Spider Queen are apparently Gygax's invention. Scrap all of them and start over. Don't mix them with satyrs and centaurs and chimerae, which are from Greek mythology, from a different time period and different geographical locale. Now that we're into it, we need to pretty much scrap the Monster Manual and start over. Also, the Player's Handbook classes are no good; the barbarian needs to be reworked into a Berserkr prestige class, for example. Some of this was attempted in the 2e Vikings Campaign Sourcebook, which didn't exactly overwhelm the industry. And at the end of the day, we could end up making a whole new game for Scandinavian Mythological Adventuring, for example... but it wouldn't be D&D, and it would appeal only to cultural and historical enthusiasts, and would thus be out of print and bankrupt within weeks.

The current nonsensical mishmash has the advantage of wide appeal and vast flexibility. Why not stick with that model, which has worked well since Arneson and Gygax invented the game?


Kirth Gersen wrote:
The current nonsensical mishmash has the advantage of wide appeal and vast flexibility. Why not stick with that model, which has worked well since Arneson and Gygax invented the game?

It's a fine model, but it doesn't hurt to discuss what's wrong with it.

Here's another one: trolls and ogres can't coexist because they are really the same creature. Trolls are the more etymologically, historically, and culturally correct; ogres were invented by Perrault from the same Latin root word that Tolkein used to invent orcs.

I wouldn't mind separating the monsters into groups based on cultural mythology, just so if somebody wants to run a culture-specific campaign, they'll know exactly what monsters are appropriate for it and can thus flesh each individual monster out to a greater degree within the countryside and local lore and legend in their campaign.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Takamori wrote:


I'm all for European snobbery. Let's clean the whole house, shall we?
You are uniquely situated to tell me how the European side of things can be improved upon. Can you give me any thoughts or ideas; things you see as wrong or inaccurate on the European side but never bothered to look at twice? I would really, truly love to hear such things.

You're presupposing that a one for one modeling of the real world is, in some way, an "improvement." I respectfully disagree. I like my fantasy and my history to be distinct. If you are interested in historical reenactment and that sort of thing, then you might be interested in the SCA and similar groups, but I suspect D&D will be difficult to "improve" to your liking.

I like D&D the way it is. In D&D, if you encounter a Knight he (or she!) will be noble, honorable and heroic as often as not. In the real world this was much more the exception than the rule. And I only know of one instance of a woman who was arguably a Knight. Gender bias and much of the ugliness of the past are important things to know about history, but do very little to make a fantasy game more fun. (See the DMG2 for further details)

Similarly, I like names that aren't real world names. I've only once played a PC with a real world name. I usually just make up names that I think sound cool. And I like it when folks like Paizo come up with their own names as well. I would get tired of "Bob the Bartender" and "Kevin the Cleric" and "Tim the Sorcerer." So they make up names for the vaguely European cultures. I don't see why they should suddenly get all uptight about "accuracy" when they make up names for the vaguely Asian cultures. As others have said, it is a fantasy game. Let's enjoy it for what it is. If you enjoy sharing your knowledge of Japanese naming conventions, there might be other forums where such discussions would be more relevant and welcomed.

Oh! I also like the mix and hodgepodge of things that are "medieval-ish" in D&D. Rapiers alongside Full plate armor? I like it. Mermaids and sphinxes and minotaurs and selkies and dryads and genies and dragons and zombies? Sign me up! If I want real world folklore I'll read a book or take a class on the topic. If I want no holds barred fantasy I play D&D.

Liberty's Edge

Takamori wrote:

And it's "kowtow". Five lashes.

(I'm just kidding, you needn't use one of your daily Rages.)

This is a very creative way to call someone a barbarian. The DM in me says: Gain 50 XP for being clever; loose 100 for trying to insult another community member.

This being the second time I've noticed you using it, you gain 50 but lose 200. (It was only clever the first time.) ;-)

Anyway, I'll just add that I think it's unreasonable to expect made-up pseudo-asian names to adhere to stricter naming conventions than made-up pseudo-european names. Regdar, Balabar Smenk, Filge, Mordenkainen, Sir Gyrad Tolgrith, and Valeros are all very bizarre names if you try to apply a real-world mindset to them, but in a fantasy world, they work to add flavor and enhance the sense of being in a different realm.

Instead of "making a big deal out of" the unconventional names James used for the characters from Minkai, it might be more worthwhile to accept them as unusual-sounding fantasy names and then use them as the basis for an alternate language that could have originated in the fictional land of Minkai.


Takamori wrote:


It's a fine model, but it doesn't hurt to discuss what's wrong with it.

Is there really *anything* wrong with it??

But then, what are you talking about? It's a game, man, and you know what? It's FANTASY! ;-)

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