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I wanted to give kudos to the development of Sandpoint. There's a TON of great adventure seeds in here that I can keep working stuff out of this town long after the AP finishes. The NPCs are amazing characters that I can't wait to do.
I also like that Sandpoint is a bit more 'forward-thinking' than the standard D&D type town (I liked that the populace was rather accepting of the homosexual couple with the exception of the jerks nobody likes anyway). I thought the 'abortion-clinic' was a tad surprising and don't really see its use too much in the overall scheme of the game and world, but no complaints.
Can't wait for the hardcopies to arrive so we can start playing
I agree. Great setting!
Will the NPCs change at all over the course of the AP? For instance, is there any hope that Pillbug might take another level of adept and the Craft Magical Arms & Armor feat, so that PCs can improve existing weapons instead of sending away for new stuff via the Feathered Serpent? (Probably they'll head out to Magnimar anyway, but you get where I'm going with this.)
I suppose it's possible that some of the NPCs will go up in level in future pathfinder books and get a new stat block written up. But that's only likely to happen if the NPC is directly involved in the main plot or a sub-plot hook.
But that doesn't mean you can't customize the NPCs a bit. Unless they're really old and "retired" it makes sense that they would earn experience over time. It usually happens with recurring villains and cohorts, so why not recurring expert NPC shopkeepers?
I've actually started to copy the names, stats, etc. into a spreadsheet so I can keep track of them all.
But the sczarni might not want the pillbug to take long breaks from poison making to craft items that can take weeks to make.
Getting a suit of armour to +1 takes one day. Getting a weapon to +1 takes two days.
Still, I take your point. :)
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gotta admit when I see the "affair with ####", I wasn't prepared to see that, but I like that the story has mature themes in it, granted at first I was just gonna switch it to a m/f relationship, but then after awile I said naaaaaaaa if my players can't handle then I guess they can't roll with the story.
now I just gotta make one or both of them play the part as I'll be typing out their interactions due to I play in a online PbP game.
great work guys (heck even went over on my break at work reading the adventure), love you guys put the wickedness but still goofy back into goblins, I laughed at their antics, but at the same time was like "ohhhh wow how could they!!"
heck not even finished reading & then putting the adventure in my head to recall for later yet & I want book #2!!!!! ha ha
RM
Since the acceptance of various elements are based on culture, and cultures vary, I'd consider the examples of the romantic relationship with the same gender and birth control to be very common and ordinary.
It was this attitude that Sandpoint holds which I found to be critical to get PC's to not only identify with their hometown but to risk their lives for it. I'm hoping that the next few issues that take the PC's to different cities will emphasize how rare Sandpoint is.
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I just finished reading the Sandpoint chapter, and I've got to say I'm really impressed. The NPCs feel real, alive and natural--their lives and relationships are intertwined with each other as well as with Sandpoint's recent history in a way that reinforces that this is a community--not simply a base of operations for the PCs. There's enough here to encourage roleplay in the PCs 'til the cows come home.
Creative Director
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First of all... thanks for all the kind words! I'm glad to hear that Sandpoint's striking a chord with so many folks; it really is supposed to be "home sweet home" for your PCs, and even though many of the adventures will have you leaving home for a while, we'll be spending some quality time here in adventure #2, #4, and #5.
A fairly large part of the inspiration for Sandpoint actually comes from my actual home town of Point Arena (which is more or less Spanish for "Point Bar of Sand" or, of course, "Sandpoint"). All the NPCs are, of course, purely fictional, but the attitude of the town as well as the feel and themes are pretty much directly inspired by Point Arena.
Which, by the way, did indeed have the city dump right off the side of the cliff by the lighthouse into the ocean as late as the early '70s. And earlier on, did indeed have a mirror outside of town so folk could make sure they were presentable before they came on in to town.
I was actually a little disappointed with the inclusion of those "contraversial" characters. Or rather not so much with their inclusion but with their designated alignments.
Some players may have RL moral issues with some of those characters. By defining the characters as Good, there is an implication as to how moral those choices are.
My main concerns are that 1)it does feel kind of pushy on the whole morality of those activities (sort of forced P.C.ness) and 2)it provides more ammunition for those groups that like to use this hobby as a whipping dog. (as an example)"See now they are saying that having abortions is Good. First it was worshipping the devil and now this."
I'm a little tired so I am not sure if I am making sense here. I am not discussing my personal feelings, I couldn't care less myself. I just worry about there being negative feed back from parents and other groups that feel there is a bit of strong-arming going on with the acceptance of views that some may think in RL are "progressive".
Personally I think they would have been better off going with pres_man's rule for RL morality and game alignments.
"If a topic is contraversial in RL then its designation of alignment in game is neutral."
Thus things like abortion and the death penalty in my games are classified as neutral. That way people that feel they are wrong can point and say, "See they are not good" and those that feel they are fine can point and say "see they are not evil", and everyone is ... well maybe not "happy" but at least not overly offended.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Personally I think they would have been better off going with pres_man's rule for RL morality and game alignments.
"If a topic is contraversial in RL then its designation of alignment in game is neutral."
Going by that yardstick, anyone in the world is assuredly neutral. Face it, each lifestyle choice is considered amoral or controversial in some fringe of the world. Female over the age of ten not veiled? Highly controversial in most islamic countries, but not, e.g. in the US. Homosexual couple? Highly controversial in the US (but not in Europe).
No matter what you do, you are sure to offend someone somewhere. So why limit yourself by it? I for one consider alignments to be rather broad and inclusive. Your intent matters as much as your actions, and everything is subject to a huge summation mark at the end of the day. So you may even perform evil acts on a regular basis, but as long as you do them for the right reasons, and "compensate", you can still come out as good on the overall balance.
Going by that yardstick, anyone in the world is assuredly neutral.
Right, obvious some common sense would be needed. Societies that are not likely to play the game would probably be ignored for what would be considered contoversial.
Homosexual couple? Highly controversial in the US (but not in Europe).
Well that I believe depends on what part of Europe you are talking about. The areas that are strongly Catholic (though admittedly Europeans are getting less and less religious in general) would probably still view it as controversial.
No matter what you do, you are sure to offend someone somewhere. So why limit yourself by it?
And why intentionally push people's buttons? If you can do the same ideas in a more "neutral" (pun intended) way without stepping on anyone's RL moral "toes", why not. In fact that is often the best choice for a business, avoid alienating potential customers.
I for one consider alignments to be rather broad and inclusive. Your intent matters as much as your actions, and everything is subject to a huge summation mark at the end of the day. So you may even perform evil acts on a regular basis, but as long as you do them for the right reasons, and "compensate", you can still come out as good on the overall balance.
I agree to an extent, it probably matters what we mean by "regular basis". I mean if a guy ran around putting baby goblins on pikes as often as he possibly could, I think we'd have a hardtime justifying them as Good. In that case, they would probably fall into the Neutral range, by showing good and evil aspects.
But as I said, I myself don't really care that much about it one way or another, it just seems to me to be an unnecessary classification. Hannah Velerin could have easily been called Neutral without any other change to the character. As you say, each alignment is broad and so there could be room for a neutral person with good leanings in the alignment Neutral.
I applaud Paizo for not doing the Texas side-step around mature themes.
Pathfinder is a book, albeit, maybe not a 'traditional' book. I see it as a form of writing and therefore a form of art. To me, good art is something that makes you think. You may not like what you think. Each of us must decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. Growth comes from challenging previously held beliefs. Sometimes those beliefs stand up to the scrutiny. Sometimes they do not. The point is, the 'status-quo' must be challenged. I see art as a perfect champion for this cause.
So good on Paizo for raising some eyebrows and not trying to be the consummate politician by trying to tell everyone what they want to hear without telling anyone anything.
But as I said, I myself don't really care that much about it one way or another, it just seems to me to be an unnecessary classification.If you don't like it you can always change it in your campaign.
Of course, if you take that line of thinking to its conclusion, Paizo could publish a book of empty pages and whatever you didn't like you could change for your campaign.
Sweet Jebus, Desna, and Kossuth; Pathfinder is indeed amazing. I plan on running this as soon as I find enough people with free time. Everything I've seen puts this head and shoulders above Wizard's pre-made adventures. The disturbingly cute and sadistic goblins, the intentional awkward situations, the excellent dichotomized villain, it's all great! Excellent work and I hope you guys keep it up.
I applaud Paizo for not doing the Texas side-step around mature themes.
Pathfinder is a book, albeit, maybe not a 'traditional' book. I see it as a form of writing and therefore a form of art. To me, good art is something that makes you think. You may not like what you think. Each of us must decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. Growth comes from challenging previously held beliefs. Sometimes those beliefs stand up to the scrutiny. Sometimes they do not. The point is, the 'status-quo' must be challenged. I see art as a perfect champion for this cause.
So good on Paizo for raising some eyebrows and not trying to be the consummate politician by trying to tell everyone what they want to hear without telling anyone anything.
There you go. See how it appears as if some sort of "enlightened agenda" is being suggested, even though I am sure that wasn't the intention, that is how it can come across.
Let me put in that I have also enjoyed the setting. I don't want anyone to think my criticism on this one point is anything about the rest. My concern is that some readers might feel alienated by the position on those topics. Yet if paizo is not concerned about doing it to potential customers, what do I really care, it doesn't bother me personally.
I suppose. Hey, if you're willing to pay $20 for a blank book I think we're willing to produce one for you. :DOf course, if you take that line of thinking to its conclusion, Paizo could publish a book of empty pages and whatever you didn't like you could change for your campaign.
LOL
I'll add my pat-on-the-back, Sandpoint is a great starting town for new PCs, and really has an air or realness to it. Fine work.
The abortion clinic was kind of surprising, I really didn't see the need for this, nothing like this ever comes up in my game, but not a big deal. The same sex couple? I must have missed that, I'll have to look over it again when I'm awake.
I have to agree . . Sandpoint is fantabulous.
After reading through the full backdrop chapter today I have to say I was very pleased with the depth of the city. the detail provided.
In regard to Jasper and Cyrdak, and the implication that Shayliss Vinder is potentially bi-sexual (Come now, regardless of player gender, there've been times when I've DMed group of all female characters, and how would that encounter work if there were no male characters), I say bring it on.
I really don't think there's any way for us as consumers to complain about something like sexual preferences and tendencies in a product that spotlights Sin Wizards and even warns on page 17 that the DM can decide how far is too far for their group.
The way I look at it, while Dungeons and Dragons may have been originally targeted at and marketed for the younger gamers, the people at Paizo understand that there's those of us that have stayed with the hobby as we've grown up. There's no need for us to sit at the kid's table with hasbro anymore. We're happy sitting at the dining room table with the rest of the adults.
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My concern is that some readers might feel alienated by the position on those topics. Yet if paizo is not concerned about doing it to potential customers, what do I really care, it doesn't bother me personally.
I have no illusions that some of Pathfinder's content will alienate some customers. I'd rather do that than err on the side of political correctness or not ever include controversial elements in the adventure. I trust that our readers are mature enough to know that Pathfinder's not trying to reprogram them or promote a hidden agenda any more than J. K. Rowling is trying to turn today's youths into Satanists.
Shayless is certainly bisexual. Male PCs shouldn't be the only ones emperiled by being beaten up by a 7th level commoner!
I knew that there was something about the description of Shameless Shayless during my first read through that tipped me off to her bisexuality, but when I was checking the book while posting I couldn't find it.
Glad I could get verification which I was going to run with anyway.
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In fact... whenever I'm talking about NPCs who may or may not be targets for PC romances, I generally try to avoid nailing down their sexuality. For example, if you want Shalelu to hook with with a PC in your game, and the only player who seems interested is playing a female character, no problem!
When I first read the Shayliss encounter, I did a total "eye-roll." I was thinking "man, we're too old for this." I play with a group of guys who are all almost 40, most with wives and kids. We stopped having our characters hit the bordellos when we were in 7th grade. (Remember the "Pleasure Gardens" in the City State of the Overlord? Good Times.)
As a group, we've just never bothered to play with the whole PC's hooking up thing. Our characters tend to be monk-like in their devotion to the mission. No extra-curricular activities allowed. If you wanted to be uncharitable, you might say we play D&D to escape our family entanglements. But that would be mean. I suppose it's not easy for the PCs to pick up companions as they dodge dragon breath.
But I'm starting to have second thoughts. I'm thinking of forcing every PC to shack up with at least one NPC in Sandpoint. They're the heroes, and it would be pretty tough to resist all the groupies. Even a Paladin might be tempted.
Then, if the PCs ever get in over their head, all of their SO's (significant others) form a posse and rescue them! It will be a hoot! Unbeknownst to the players, all of their different romantic choices had a few PC levels here and there. Their choice in companion impacts which Pre-gen I hand them if the main PCs ever go down.
"Dude, your girlfriend had Rogue levels and she never told you?"
"Shut up, I don't want to talk about it. At least I'm not dating a Wizard with Charisma as a dump stat. I suspect you'll find charm person in her spellbook."
"We don't have that kind of relationship, I love her for her mind."
"Whatever, your will save sucks, loser."
Shayless is certainly bisexual. Male PCs shouldn't be the only ones emperiled by being beaten up by a 7th level commoner!
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know wud I mean?
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Forcing PCs to shack up with NPCs is probably a bit too hard-core. Not every player is interested in or comfortable with having this level of role-play involved in the game. But a lot are. You should certainly focus on the elements of the adventure you know your group is interested in, and maybe chat with them a bit before the campaign begins to find out if they're interested in having more roleplay type encounters than normal.
In any event, the encoutner with Shayless isn't really meant to be validation for a player to get it on with a local hottie. It's more of my attempt to turn the tired old "There are rats in my basement; come kill them" side quest that shows up, it seems, in every RPG (computer or tabletop) at one point or another. It's also important in that it introduces Ven and his family; they have a small but important role to play in the second adventure, and if the PCs make an enemy of Ven Vinder, things might get a little complicated for them when "Skinsaw Murders" begins. HINT: It starts out pretty tragic for one of Ven's daughters...
I'd just like to add my congratulations, this is a great town and it's starting to look like a spectacular campaign setting, I can't wait to run a game in it. I wish you had published it a year ago when i started playing D&D again--it would have really saved me some time.
I see James Jacobs has a new avatar thingy. cool
I'm not going to force anyone to do a lot of uncomfortable role playing and describe gory details. I've known these guys for years and we're all good friends. I'm just going to present them with choices like: chat up the baker's daughter or pursue the exotic elven ranger?
I want to nudge them all towards picking a companion so that if it comes up, there will be an amusing reveal when they all find out that some of the companions are more skilled than they thought.
It can be interesting when secondary characters get to take center stage for a bit.
So...
"Rats in my basement" is the new "Hot Coffee?" ;-)
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I have no illusions that some of Pathfinder's content will alienate some customers. I'd rather do that than err on the side of political correctness or not ever include controversial elements in the adventure. I trust that our readers are mature enough to know that Pathfinder's not trying to reprogram them or promote a hidden agenda any more than J. K. Rowling is trying to turn today's youths into Satanists.
Actually, I think what Paizo did here, in todays world, is "politically correct", nobody wants to upset 'the homosexual agenda, gotta include them so they're not offended'. That part actually offends me, but, as I like the rest of it, I'll overlook and ignore it. Controversial elements are great in an adventure, but some things should not really be discussed, i.e. politics, religion, (real world, and this topic IS real world), as someone WILL be upset, and things start going down hill from there.
Sandpoint is amazing!
Oh wait, that's the title of this thread. But it is. You've got the most important thing right - giving the people of the place sufficiently fleshed-out personalities that a good DM knows how they'll react to whatever the PCs throw at them.
Cuz... you know them dang PCs are gonna do stuff you never expected.
Side note: I'm not a charter subscriber? But I converted my Dragon/Dungeon subs to Pathfinder and I got Burnt Offerings...
While I haven't read pathfinder #1 yet, I will comment that seeing the *very minor spoiler* gay halfling in the appendix for Crown of the Kobold King was rather touching for me. It wasn't "rah rah rah pride" or anything, but rather just a well fleshed out NPC, easily enough ignored by DMs who are troubled by such issues.
I'd like to thank you guys for little things like that, they can mean a lot. It's nice to finally see some NPCs coming out of the closet. (Well, I mean besides the lightning zombie)
So...
"Rats in my basement" is the new "Hot Coffee?" ;-)
LMAO! Good one! It's even better than asking if someone wants to come up and see your "etchings."
Although it could be a euphemism for just the opposite sort of scenario. "Watch out for her, mate, I hear she's got 'rats in her basement,' if you know what I mean..."
But I like it better as the new pick up line. That's awesome.
Oh my god.. I can't actually believe someone complained about gay or bi-sexual characters being of a particular alignment..
Anyway, I should really stop reading all these threads on how great Burnt Offerings and Sandpoint are.. makes me want to drop my planned Red Hand of Doom-campaign and play this instead.
Actually, I think what Paizo did here, in todays world, is "politically correct", nobody wants to upset 'the homosexual agenda, gotta include them so they're not offended'.That has nothing to do with it. It has a lot more to do with personal interests of Paizo staffers.
Are you gay?
Hehe, just kidding man. I couldn't help that. I'm the guy who posted about being a hetero who played a homo character in order to help unwind some tense homophobe players....
The sexual preference of writers is of no concern to me unless I am attempting to gain some kind of analytical insight into it, and for me D&D is just plain fun. Hmmm... although I admit it's always cool to see game writing that can be interpreted as social criticism.
Homosexual agenda. That's funny in Canada. I guess it could sound a little more scary south of the border.
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Homosexual agenda. That's funny in Canada. I guess it could sound a little more scary south of the border.
Well, it almost wasn't that much different in Canada.. keep in mind that we came really, really, really close to electing Harper to a majority government... which might have changed his tune on all kinds of issues, including gay marriage, etc.
Which I guess is a good point in favor of our multi-party electoral system... its hard to make sweeping controversial changes, because its unlikely that you'll have a strong majority. Let the courts make a decision and its hard to overturn.
So...
"Rats in my basement" is the new "Hot Coffee?" ;-)
To quote my wife: *seductive look* "Heeeeeey, would you like to come over and kill rats in my basement sometime?"
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first I want to say that Sandpoint is great, Pathfinder is everything I hoped it would be and more. Thanks guys!
Second, I want to provide some historical perspective for some of the folks who seemed disturbed by what they see as the intrusion of modern "controversial" elements into the setting.
1- Abortion clinic. Wrong way to view this. There is a LONG traditional of using herbal extracts to terminate pregnancies in Europe, middle east, and asia. These practices were done by women for women for several thousand years and in many cultures helped lead to the classification of a single woman who made a living as a midwife and herbalist as a "witch" who needed burning.
Putting the herbalist in is actually more in line with a fantasy setting than the modern day.
2- Gay couple/ bisexual teenager- Until christianity swept through the Roman empire, bisexuality was common and homosexual relationships were, if not quite common, certainly accepted. In fact, in ancient Athens during the Golden age (around the time of Pericles) these practices were actually institutionalized into a sort of mentoring system of older men and their protege's having romantic relationships. So once again, this fits a fantasy setting fine (with historic precedents) and only seems weird from a anachronistic modern viewpoint.
3- alignment. OK, this is IMO the silliest. Folks regardless of how you personally feel about a social issue, does it make someone EVIL or GOOD by where they choose to stand on it? Sexual orientation and moral alignment (good - evil) cannot possibly be correlated in any reasonable person's mind. You may think the lifestyle is evil, but certainly the person is not. That determination would have to be made off of their actions and motivations. Would you really argue that an herbalist and midwife who has dedicated her life to helping others should not have a good alignment because she provides herbal options to terminate a pregnancy? By her profession and description she seems to be a caring person who puts others before herself and helps where she can. Sounds good to me.
Rather than criticizing Paizo for including "questionable material" I would suggest that you should examine your own motives for bringing your real world opinions into a game setting. Perhaps Paizo doesn't have an agenda to push, but maybe you do.
Anyway, I know this was long winded and probably ruffled some feathers. I was not responding to any one individual, but rather to the thread collectively.
Actually, I think what Paizo did here, in todays world, is "politically correct", nobody wants to upset 'the homosexual agenda, gotta include them so they're not offended'.
You are kidding, right? "Controversial elements are great…" + "…but some things should not really be discussed…" So as long as it is not one of your hot button issues we are golden? Psha. Freedom of speech as long as you agree with what is being said. And what exactly is this 'homosexual agenda' you speak of?
Sandpoint, really amazing! The real life elements are great, keep 'em coming. I don't see a problem, if you don't like a particular idea, don't use it, simple.
first I want to say that Sandpoint is great, Pathfinder is everything I hoped it would be and more. Thanks guys!
Second, I want to provide some historical perspective for some of the folks who seemed disturbed by what they see as the intrusion of modern "controversial" elements into the setting.
1- Abortion clinic. Wrong way to view this. There is a LONG traditional of using herbal extracts to terminate pregnancies in Europe, middle east, and asia. These practices were done by women for women for several thousand years and in many cultures helped lead to the classification of a single woman who made a living as a midwife and herbalist as a "witch" who needed burning.
Putting the herbalist in is actually more in line with a fantasy setting than the modern day.
2- Gay couple/ bisexual teenager- Until christianity swept through the Roman empire, bisexuality was common and homosexual relationships were, if not quite common, certainly accepted. In fact, in ancient Athens during the Golden age (around the time of Pericles) these practices were actually institutionalized into a sort of mentoring system of older men and their protege's having romantic relationships. So once again, this fits a fantasy setting fine (with historic precedents) and only seems weird from a anachronistic modern viewpoint.
3- alignment. OK, this is IMO the silliest. Folks regardless of how you personally feel about a social issue, does it make someone EVIL or GOOD by where they choose to stand on it? Sexual orientation and moral alignment (good - evil) cannot possibly be correlated in any reasonable person's mind. You may think the lifestyle is evil, but certainly the person is not. That determination would have to be made off of their actions and motivations. Would you really argue that an herbalist and midwife who has dedicated her life to helping others should not have a good alignment because she provides herbal options to terminate a pregnancy? By her profession and description she seems to be a caring person who puts...
What he said. :)
but Paizo does have bi and gay employees. :)
Yes, that is all good and well, but do you employ ninjas? Hmm? Let us not start talking politics and correctness, lest we overlook the plight of the modern ninja, so shunned, so forgotten.
I am sorry . . .too much caffeine for the Rogue today. Carry on.
I would also like to second underling's opinion. All 3 of his points are well reasoned.
"Kill some Rats in the basement" and "Look out, she's got rats in her basement" both crack me up now.
I also noticed that James Jacobs avatar switched back again.
Actually, I think what Paizo did here, in todays world, is "politically correct", nobody wants to upset 'the homosexual agenda, gotta include them so they're not offended'.
Okay, I'm not going to jump on tigger1tom here as it looks like he already got dog piled on. Sorry man.
Pathfinder, and to a greater extent, all of GameMastery, takes the view that our readers are older than 13 years old and unprejudiced. If that's not the case or anyone is uncomfortable with that, Highlights magazine has been doing some bang-up work in the last 51 years (Goofus and Gallant and the animal search are still my favorites), they’ll do you right. When it comes to so-called “controversial elements,” we include them for a number of reasons:
For more than thirty years the default D&D NPC has been a heterosexual white male—not strange considering that's usually the default D&D player—but it's 2007 now, and probably time to let the other kids play every now and then.
The bulletpoint you don’t see on the list above is “We have a politic or moral agenda.” That’s because we don’t. James and I are about as out of touch with the daily news as you can get (you get that when the world is just the place you drive through from your desk to your bed) and the strongest feelings I’ve had about a topic from that place in the last month has been: Bioshock is f#+&ing awesome! So yeah, we’re not trying to change anyone’s mind, and at the end of the day, it’s you game. If you don’t like something, change it! If you love an idea, use it till the pages rip!
As for a "gay agenda." Sounds made up. I'm much more concerned about the "red-head agenda" and the "leftie agenda," now that's scary s#%#... have you ever seen THOSE people? Really, the only "gay agenda" I've ever seen is "Lets have a party in late June."
And as a final thought, here's the link to GayGamer.net's Top 10 Gayest Tabletop Characters. Turns out we're not really breaking any new ground.
Yes, that is all good and well, but do you employ ninjas? Hmm? Let us not start talking politics and correctness, lest we overlook the plight of the modern ninja, so shunned, so forgotten.I am sorry . . .too much caffeine for the Rogue today. Carry on.
The plight of the modern ninja is that his (or her) power is geometricly inversely porportional to the total number of ninjas that appear together. A lone ninja is potentially infinitely powerful, while a score of ninjas is easily defeated. (read that on some other post somehere...)
We're starting to get off topic here, sorry...
Oh great! You can't say 'gay' without someone bringing out the ninja agenda. Why black was selected over fuchsia as the color of choice is beyond me.