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But as long as we are being honest, those of us who lived through the 1st ed. to 2nd edition transition know that its possible to "upgrade" to a far inferior product.
Really?
I wasn't quite introduced to D&D with true 1st edition product(s?) although I have taken a look at it. If memory serves me right, the classes were fighter, magic-user, thief, elf, and dwarf. I don't think that halfling was a race/class at that time and I also don't think that clerics were around. Although it has been a really long time since I looked at it and I could be wrong.
I was introduced to D&D with AD&D. And let's see -- Illusionists couldn't cast magic missile until they were something like 15th level and then it took like a 7th level spell slot. In order to become a bard, a human had to take 10 levels of fighter, 10 levels of thief, and 10 levels of magic-magic user to become a 1st level bard. I could be a little off on some of this -- again, it has been a really long time for me. Paladin was more of a subclass of fighter. Druid was a subclass of cleric. I forget where monk fit in, but if memory serves me right, the monk had quite a few issues with it as well.
Don't get me wrong, I have many fond memories of playing that game -- but I never felt that 2nd edition was a move to "a far inferior product". Maybe I'm too young to fully appreciate it. ;-)
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I think you may be confusing 1E with Basic D&D a little.
I started playing under 1E (of course it wasn't called that then, it was just AD&D) and loved it. When they switched to 2E ... well, I was less than impressed. We all stuck with 1E for a long time in fact.
I played some 2E but really didn't like it much. THACO? Come on.
Any way, I think it really is, to some extent anyway, what you grow up with. For me, playing AD&D as a 12 or 13 year old was the Golden Age. When 2E came out, D&D died a little for me.
Third Edition is actually what rekindled D&D for me.
Third Edition is actually what rekindled D&D for me.
Same here. I'm starting to have a small, glowing coal of hope deep inside that maybe 4e will be neat and answer all my outstanding issues with 3.5 without radically altering what I believe to be the best edition of D&D so far. I'm waiting, with wary trepidation, to see what info WotC releases between now and December.
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I think you may be confusing 1E with Basic D&D a little.
Possibly. What I was looking at was before AD&D and it was a few small, paperback pamphlets. They definately had the Dungeon and Dragon logo on them and it was put together a little nicer than just some paper stapled together. I just remember being rather surprised that there weren't really classes AND races -- it was either one or the other.
And THAC0 -- while I hated THAC0, at least I could calculate it in my head. If memory serves me right, AD&D had a table (that many people memorized). I'm not sure how a complicated, non-mathematical table is better than something that you can add or subtract in your head.
I have to dig out my old AD&D books again...
And THAC0 -- while I hated THAC0, at least I could calculate it in my head. If memory serves me right, AD&D had a table (that many people memorized). I'm not sure how a complicated, non-mathematical table is better than something that you can add or subtract in your head.I have to dig out my old AD&D books again...
Not having to look inside a book or on a DM screen at yet another table is why I liked (and still like) THAC0 over the 1e tables.
Bravo Real Brain! I am with you. I think your analisis was outstanding and 100% true, whoever says it is not true or real is defending some financial interest because he is going to get revenues from this 4.0 stuff.
You are really right who wants abandon a game in which we invested time and money. This is something WOTC will never undestand.
Please take a little time to read my thoughts about this matter:
First: Tabletop RPGs are based in nothing else than imagination, this is the only kind of entertainment than NEVER, will disappear and NEVER will be outdated. And it will be still atractive for those who enjoy video games, movies, comics and other sources of entertainment. Imagination will never be beaten, ever. This is precisely what attacts from tabletop RPGs, the opportunity to imagine yourself making things that only can ben possible in your dreams. Tabletop RPGs allow you to do what you want, explore what you want, talk to you want, that kind of freedom is unique in a tabletop RPGs. Neither video games nor MMORPGs can reach that kind of freedom. You can calm your conscience saying "he is wrong MMORPGs are better, I can do whatever I want there", but you ALWAYS, ALWAYS, wanted do things the game did not allow you and ALWAYS had to take only the choices the game gave you.
I am not speaking ill of MMORPGs, but I say that they would be my last choice. The fist want: tabletop RPGs.
Second: No discussion about complexity and completeness of d20 system, I don't want to try anything else I stick with it d20 is the best system ever created. No one needs a system to Role Playing, you can role play without any system, but when you are talking about action resolution, d20 is the best you can get. I tried some other systems but no other one could bring a so complete set or rules.
However the discussion here WHY A 4TH EDITION? IS IT NECESSARY?
Perhaps people at Wizard feel some pressure from the fact that some other games as Shadowrun is reaching a 5th edition. But what is the difference between Shadowrun and D&D. D&D has the biggest comunity ever seen to support a game, the biggest army of publishers ever seen for a game and the biggest quantity of products ever produced for a game.
Is necessary a 4th edition? NO NO NO it is NOT necessary. The bulk of products published more than 5000 I think and the WEB free products another 5000 I think can provide the possibilities to make the d20 system as customizable and perfect as you like. If you don't like a rule probably some publisher fixed it for you. SO THERE IS NOT NEED FOR A FOURTH EDITION.
Third: The Reason to advance from a D&D basic to D&D expert to AD&D to AD&D second edition to D&D 3.0 to D&D 3.5 was the desire to improve the game, the game improved the game evolved the game became perfect. SO WHY A NEW EDITION? NO improving, only MONEY$$$$$.
Yes, everybody who has studied a little about marketing knows that the two words than sell more are free and NEW. People likes novelties and WOTC knows that only bringing a new edition they can extract money from people. Have you seen their last products or the last products from the d20 publishers? Are they originals? "There is nothing new under the sky" said wise Salomon, there is nothing left to say, everything is almost said, but WOTC needs to make money (and no one can blame them for that) so they now come with a new edition now you have to buy all the new core books and later they will recycle all their campaign settings and will sell new "updated" books, then they will recycle everything about races, classes, magic, feats, monsters, and who knows what else and will sell "updated books". And after 7 or 8 years they will bring the "better and player friendly" 5th edition (5dventure with countdown and everything). And so on till people at last notice the trap or older gamers be dead so no one knows about this.
Fourth and last: I WON'T BUY 4TH EDITION, I WON'T PLAY 4TH EDITION (if I get a 5th edition good adventure first it will be converted to 3.5). My life won't be enough to read and play all what has been written for the d20 system, you can play over decades every d20 module on the market or on the web and you would never repeat a single one. And if you add to this all the modules from previous editions that have been converted to 3.5 edition you will need to lives to play all the stuff in existence. And unless you play everyday 3 to 4 hours I think many of us will die without seeing all what there is from the d20 system. Why a change? why starting something new when we haven't yet explored what we have now? Yes, money, and many will fall in the trap. The d20 comunity must be strong now and continue supporting our beloved system
I don't care what the rest say I will stay in the isle with my group of gamers, will open my treasure chest and take the hundreds and hundreds of adventures I have acumulated on these years and I will play until the day I be a grandfather, then if I am out of adventures, will take all the previous editions adventures to convert them to 3.5 to continue playing until the day I be an oldman, later I will take all the adventures I and other partners in this cause posted on the 3.5 devoted sites in the previous 50 years and will play the rest of the years God gave me on this earth. That is not cold analisis that is pragmatism.
Upright your banner! Cry Havoc! War they want war they get! Stay on 3.5 to the death!
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You are really right who wants abandon a game in which we invested time and money. This is something WOTC will never undestand.
Typos aside...
Have you ever bought computer games? PS1? PS2? X-Box? Other computer games like Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Starcraft, Diablo, Baldur's gate? Did you invest time and money into them? Did you "abandon" them? I have abandoned many of mine -- how is this different?
I'll keep reading the rest of your post.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Bravo Real Brain! I am with you. I think your analisis was outstanding and 100% true, whoever says it is not true or real is defending some financial interest because he is going to get revenues from this 4.0 stuff.
Huh. And here I thought the disagreements stemmed from the fact that he's full of s@@~, as has been shown by other posters.
But ramble on, I'm sure if you post the same thing in ever 4e thread, sooner or later someone will find it worth their while to respond.
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The Reason to advance from a D&D basic to D&D expert to AD&D to AD&D second edition to D&D 3.0 to D&D 3.5 was the desire to improve the game, the game improved the game evolved the game became perfect.
The game is now perfect? I must have missed that update.
And do you really believe that money was not a motivating factor for WotC to move from 2nd edition to 3.0 and then to 3.X? Do you really believe that their only goal was to make a perfect game?
You are really right who wants abandon a game in which we invested time and money. This is something WOTC will never undestand.Typos aside...
Have you ever bought computer games? PS1? PS2? X-Box? Other computer games like Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Starcraft, Diablo, Baldur's gate? Did you invest time and money into them? Did you "abandon" them? I have abandoned many of mine -- how is this different?
I'll keep reading the rest of your post.
Didn't abandon a one. I think I posted something about that elsewhere.
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My life won't be enough to read and play all what has been written for the d20 system, you can play over decades every d20 module on the market or on the web and you would never repeat a single one. And if you add to this all the modules from previous editions that have been converted to 3.5 edition you will need to lives to play all the stuff in existence. And unless you play everyday 3 to 4 hours I think many of us will die without seeing all what there is from the d20 system. Why a change? why starting something new when we haven't yet explored what we have now? Yes, money, and many will fall in the trap. The d20 comunity must be strong now and continue supporting our beloved system
This statement is comical to me. On one hand you say (I think) that there is so much 3.X information out there that if you started now, you wouldn't be able to digest all the information that exists during your lifetime. And you give this as a reason NOT to buy 4th edition materials but rather to insist that WotC continue to publish more 3.X materials. If you can't digest what you can get, what good will more books be? And how is D&D supposed to stay in business this way? By publishing more books than can possibly be used or read?
It sounds to me like you are saying that they should continue to publish more 3.5 books that you won't be able to use.
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Didn't abandon a one. I think I posted something about that elsewhere.
There's always one out there, isn't there? ;-P
I recently finished Kingdom Hearts II. Had a blast playing it. Haven't even looked at it since. I haven't played or even looked at Warcraft (the original game) in years. I can't even conceive wanting to play Loderunner again.
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but when you are talking about action resolution, d20 is the best you can get. I tried some other systems but no other one could bring a so complete set or rules.
D20 is truly the absolute best that you can get? That's right -- it's perfect.
I have tried very few other systems. I really enjoyed West End Games' Star Wars system for its simplicity. I know that a LOT of people here have said great things about the GURPS system. I liked the HERO system for its complexity. And I certainly am not an expert in game systems. But apparently you KNOW that 3.5 will be miles ahead of the curve than 4th edition even though the creators don't have anything finalized yet. That is truly amazing.
Didn't abandon a one. I think I posted something about that elsewhere.There's always one out there, isn't there? ;-P
I recently finished Kingdom Hearts II. Had a blast playing it. Haven't even looked at it since. I haven't played or even looked at Warcraft (the original game) in years. I can't even conceive wanting to play Loderunner again.
Well that's just the thing. I'm not the only one. I think it was using the analogy of Madden on the other 4.0 thread that I realized/pointed out that a lot of people don't move on(or if they do, they come screaming back). There was a lot of hardcore serious activity on the servers for Phantasy Star Online(the original) and an active community that was angry when the servers were finally shut down and switched over to one of the later versions(although the fans were much more willing to let it go- they had the game for what...7-8 years? In either case, longer than 3.5 has been out ;-) )
My only personal experience in this comes from playing wrestling video games- another very generational game platform. When the most recent version of Smackdown Vs. Raw came out, the community was polarized over the new grapple format. It was like a miniature version of the 4.0 debate- one half was screaming about the old fogies/small minded being unable/unwilling to change, the other half was screaming about the (admittedly ridiculous) new grappling system and why they had to remove feature x and option y from the game. In the end, the game sold well enough for it to be considered a success, but not the resounding one the two earlier versions of the game were, and again, more people were playing the older versions online vs. the new as time progressed. Will we be able to say the same for 4.0?
but when you are talking about action resolution, d20 is the best you can get. I tried some other systems but no other one could bring a so complete set or rules.D20 is truly the absolute best that you can get? That's right -- it's perfect.
I have tried very few other systems. I really enjoyed West End Games' Star Wars system for its simplicity. I know that a LOT of people here have said great things about the GURPS system. I liked the HERO system for its complexity. And I certainly am not an expert in game systems. But apparently you KNOW that 3.5 will be miles ahead of the curve than 4th edition even though the creators don't have anything finalized yet. That is truly amazing.
Have you played the old Marvel Super Heroes system? To me, it was perfect for super heroic combat once you ignored a few of the clunkier rules. Never got into GURPS, (although I think that was because the guy who introduced me to it was more than a bit of a jerk) but I am RIGHT THERE WITH you in terms of West End Star Wars. Saga be dammed, I still roll my d6s to use the force. Did you ever get a look at the other west end games?
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In the end, the game sold well enough for it to be considered a success, but not the resounding one the two earlier versions of the game were, and again, more people were playing the older versions online vs. the new as time progressed. Will we be able to say the same for 4.0?
It could happen that way. There are examples of things like that -- laser discs anyone? There are advancements with many things -- and some people move on and some people don't and feel like XXXXX is "good enough" or even "better". My grandparents didn't have a microwave oven for the longest time because they didn't work as well as a conventional oven. There are some games/items that we all hold on to and break out again to play over and over (Katamari for me), but I think that most people are also looking for the next bigger/better/nicer/cleaner/smoother/yougettheidea thing. Possibly not to replace Madden but perhaps something else.
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Did you ever get a look at the other west end games?
No. I used to be "If it wasn't Star Wars, it was crap." Then I grew up -- but not until West End Games was long gone.
And I did play the old Marvel Super Heroes system once. I actually liked how it worked (the brief time I used it). The advancement felt more logical than HEROES.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And I did play the old Marvel Super Heroes system once. I actually liked how it worked (the brief time I used it). The advancement felt more logical than HEROES.
You mean that there is no advancement to speak of in MSH? Advancement in MSH was damn near impossible. You had to save up a stupid amount of Karma to increase your powers and an Incredible Monstrous amount to buy a new power.
But it was (is?) fun. I dug up the books a few months ago and thought about playing it again. The problem though is that I am a slave to balance, and as I started digging deeper I realized that I would drive myself crazy trying to fix the system.
That being said, I think I might have come up with a way to hybridize it with Heroes and produce something that plays like Marvel but with a bit more balance...
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You mean that there is no advancement to speak of in MSH? Advancement in MSH was damn near impossible. You had to save up a stupid amount of Karma to increase your powers and an Incredible Monstrous amount to buy a new power.
For some reason, I didn't really have a problem with that. At the same time, when did Spider-Man go from 4th level to 5th level? For some reason true advancement feels more "logical" in a fantasy setting. (Even though it really isn't.)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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For some reason, I didn't really have a problem with that. At the same time, when did Spider-Man go from 4th level to 5th level? For some reason true advancement feels more "logical" in a fantasy setting. (Even though it really isn't.)
I honestly didn't have a problem with it at the time either. It was only when rereading the rules recently that it struck me how hard it was to advance your characters.
In my less lucid moments, I have considered running a MSH pbp here. The reality is that it would crash and burn due to my schedule.
I wonder how many more of these threads will spring up before we get more than a short look at the new game? Ultimately every major 3.5 publisher will change over to 4.0, so if you're a fan of Paizo and a hater of 4.0 you're going to have too convert all their stuff (like all those strange 2nd Ed. DMs and players do at the moment ;-).
I personally hope that WotC is successful, because if they fail the repurcussions might hurt the D&D gaming community as a whole (which involves more than just your personal home group). It seems to me that in this day and age digital material is a necessary evil, but that doesn't mean that the books will disappear or that you will have to use any online content. Paizo and companies like Necromancer Games will still produce great material regardless of the version of D&D being used (unless you believed that the rules of the game are intimately tied to making the creative side of the game bad).
I think ending the magazines when they did was a bad maneuver. All you have to do is watch the YouTube stuff and the deafening silence which accompanied the introduction of DUNGEON and DRAGON online (as opposed to the cheers about grapple rules, level advancement and such) to realize that not everyone in the room was impressed with the move.
Despite ending the mags when they did I also think that 4.0 will be an improvement over 3.5 if we are simply looking at the rules of the game. The online content and digital intiative is something else altogether, but I don't want to hang it from the rafters just yet. I hope for the sake of gamers everywhere (and the future of D&D outside your personal gaming group) that WotC has learned from its mistakes with past digital products and their new stuff enhances the game for the better.
By the way, has anyone looked at all the Play-by-Post stuff on this site. Don't tell me that some of these guys won't jump at the chance to play D&D online with the new model? I have a friend with a large group of 20 players he DMs over the net. He is positively salivating over the online content and regards it as something akin to a gaming revelation. I am less sure about the digital content, but I'm not going to put it down before I have looked at it.
I have rambled a bit, but like Sebastion (this pie we're baking in going to be big) I am an advocate for change. Conservatism in gaming is just not my cup of tea. Otherwise, I'd still be playing 2nd Ed.
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I am an advocate for change. Conservatism in gaming is just not my cup of tea. Otherwise, I'd still be playing 2nd Ed.
I don't think that many would argue that change is bad, but I think that many would questions the specific changes being made (especially in the online pricing model, the elimination of the magazines, etc...)
Change can be good. It can also be horribly, horribly bad. I think what we're all debating is where on that spectrum of 'wow to sucks' 4ed will land.
I am an advocate for change. Conservatism in gaming is just not my cup of tea. Otherwise, I'd still be playing 2nd Ed.
I don't think that many would argue that change is bad, but I think that many would questions the specific changes being made (especially in the online pricing model, the elimination of the magazines, etc...)
Change can be good. It can also be horribly, horribly bad. I think what we're all debating is where on that spectrum of 'wow to sucks' 4ed will land.
I agree with you as far as the online/digital material goes, but I think the rules and gameplay of 4e will be superior to 3.5. You may wonder why I am so confident, but I will tell you:
1. They have been working on this new edition since 2004.
2. The designers of the game genuinely love D&D. Don't confuse the industry machine (or machinations) with the passion or commitment of the R&D department.
3. While Monte Cook is gone, Skip Williams, David Noonan, James Wyatt, and the rest of the R&D staff brought you 3.0 and 3.5. They know how the old game works back to front (they designed it!) and if they tell me that the new game is superior I have to think that either they are lying or they truly believe what they are saying. I vote for the second.
4. 3.5 is a clunky and overburdened system in many, many ways. All you have to do is see the number of threads that talk about the problems with some of the rules. I think 4e will address most of these issues (and create a few of its own, though that is obvious).
You are really right who wants abandon a game in which we invested time and money. This is something WOTC will never undestand.Typos aside...
Have you ever bought computer games? PS1? PS2? X-Box? Other computer games like Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Starcraft, Diablo, Baldur's gate? Did you invest time and money into them? Did you "abandon" them? I have abandoned many of mine -- how is this different?
I'll keep reading the rest of your post.
I feel myself important Moff Rimmer has quoted several of my statements, well, look when you invest money in a video game you know it is a straight game and some day or another it will finish and the campaing will be over, but D&D is not a 700 MB or 1.4 GB game that will finish someday, that is a lifestyle, you improve your gaming experience with any book you buy, with any module you play, and it is something you share with your friends and kids it is my tradition for saturday night it is the way I live, don't compare my hobbie with a mundane 700 MB video game please.
The Reason to advance from a D&D basic to D&D expert to AD&D to AD&D second edition to D&D 3.0 to D&D 3.5 was the desire to improve the game, the game improved the game evolved the game became perfect.The game is now perfect? I must have missed that update.
And do you really believe that money was not a motivating factor for WotC to move from 2nd edition to 3.0 and then to 3.X? Do you really believe that their only goal was to make a perfect game?
Maybe the money was important too, but remember that the game was been passing from TSR to Wizard so they had to make the change, that was mandatory they had to take the franchise and improve it or sink and the change from 3.0 to 3.5 was not for money believe me.
My life won't be enough to read and play all what has been written for the d20 system, you can play over decades every d20 module on the market or on the web and you would never repeat a single one. And if you add to this all the modules from previous editions that have been converted to 3.5 edition you will need to lives to play all the stuff in existence. And unless you play everyday 3 to 4 hours I think many of us will die without seeing all what there is from the d20 system. Why a change? why starting something new when we haven't yet explored what we have now? Yes, money, and many will fall in the trap. The d20 comunity must be strong now and continue supporting our beloved systemThis statement is comical to me. On one hand you say (I think) that there is so much 3.X information out there that if you started now, you wouldn't be able to digest all the information that exists during your lifetime. And you give this as a reason NOT to buy 4th edition materials but rather to insist that WotC continue to publish more 3.X materials. If you can't digest what you can get, what good will more books be? And how is D&D supposed to stay in business this way? By publishing more books than can possibly be used or read?
It sounds to me like you are saying that they should continue to publish more 3.5 books that you won't be able to use.
How WOTC keep on the business is not my problem it is yours however I own some of their books and I think they are good really good, but others are recycling nothing new, and some third part publishers have showed better stuff so I will buy what I like.
They released the OGL and d20 license now don't complaint if some other publishers make it better than they.It is not so comical as you believe, if d20 license and 3.5 system continue for long I will do what I and many other people do: USE ONLY WHAT I LIKE AT THE MOMENT, is a lot of good d20 stuff out there? certainly, can I buy and read everything? impossible.
That is my point in this very moment impossible but if 3.5 finishes I will have many material from all the stuff I left in the road and could not read for my lacking of time.
I am looking forward to 4.0 I liked the changes in 3.5 although it was not written as well IMO. I think it is easier to play, takes less time to resolve crunch and more time for fluff.
If 4.0 sucks then I will keep doing what I am doing. I will drop cash for the core books and see how it goes from there. Paizo turns out a high quality product that I am sure will continue if/when they switch to 4.0. And they do not use the "Delve Format" so I am pretty happy about that. Besides, I have a bunch of cool adventures written by guys like Mona, Logue, Pett and Jacobs so life is pretty sweet.
And now I am off to peruse my Pdf.
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I think you may be confusing 1E with Basic D&D a little.
I started playing under 1E (of course it wasn't called that then, it was just AD&D) and loved it. When they switched to 2E ... well, I was less than impressed. We all stuck with 1E for a long time in fact.
I played some 2E but really didn't like it much. THACO? Come on.
Any way, I think it really is, to some extent anyway, what you grow up with. For me, playing AD&D as a 12 or 13 year old was the Golden Age. When 2E came out, D&D died a little for me.
Third Edition is actually what rekindled D&D for me.
I'm a 24 year D&D Vet. I started in 6th grade with AD&D, we had our many monty haul games back in the day.
2nd Ed...I say FHACK0 THAC0! I quit 2nd Edition years before 3rd edition came out...I was playing Earthdawn, Deadlands, and 7th Sea! (oh and White wolf games)
When D&D is bad, other new systems which are way more innovative and impressive are designed...
When 3.0 came out, I was impressed...
I like 3.5...I doubt I will like 4.0, I dislike being railroaded into an online format. I spend 8-10 hours a day working on the computer, I like to be able to sit down and crack open a book, not a computer to plan my D&D games!
I like being able to lie in bed and read my brand new book or Dragon or Dungeon the day it arrives!!! I think WoTC is making a huge mistake...and by my Pathfinder Charter Subscription tag, I will still be able to crack open a brand new periodical and lie in bed!
What say you? WHAT SAY YOU?!
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For those who think that 4E is not a major revision...
from Wizards... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070823a
Q: Dear Sage
Will I be able to convert my favorite character to 4th Edition?
A: We learned the hard way with 3rd Edition that accurate conversion really doesn't work. Thus, we're encouraging everyone to start at 1st level and learn the new system from the ground up.
While you'll certainly be able to reinvent many existing characters with the new system, there's no way a conversion guide could adequately cover the vast array of options that have been published over the lifespan of the game.
We'll eventually revisit many favorite parts of the previous edition, and along the way we'll also explore plenty of new territory as well.
This tells me that 4E is not 3E...
Also the description of what a dragon can do in 1 round, and the fact a Fighter hit the dragon for 500 dmg in 1 round is a bit disconcerting.... sounds like DDO...DDO isn't a hugely popular MMO...
I find it disturbing that they are not planning on providing conversion guidelines for characters from D&D 3.5 to 4.0.
I own over 20 D&D books, some of which I bought in the last year like the Fiendish Codex I & II. Books that I bought while they were busy working on 4.0 which I find rather annoying
I have also invested a lot of time in creating the campaign world and don't want to start from scratch at level one again. Nor will my players want to do so.
So unless someone else comes up with some conversion guidelines it looks like I will be sticking with D&D 3.5 for some time.
I was referring to the 'Conversion Manual' they produced when AD&D become D&D 3.
It's still available as in a zip file at Wizards, at the bottom of the following page...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
If they could convert (or at least attempt) AD&D to D20 then I am sure they can provide guidelines for 3.5 to 4th edition.
That was more than a rules tweak.
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Also the description of what a dragon can do in 1 round, and the fact a Fighter hit the dragon for 500 dmg in 1 round is a bit disconcerting.... sounds like DDO...DDO isn't a hugely popular MMO...
I think you misread, I think that dragon has 500 HP after the fighter attacks. And I don't think its round 1. I think its a snippet of the battle. Although, I could be wrong, its not very complete.
I sure hope we're not going to a 10-fold increase in HP.
The wizard healing when the cleric acts confuses me too but why do so many people keep making the assumption that with a single attack the fighter takes away over half the dragon's HP? There are so many 4E threads on here now that I can't locate it but I believe it was one of the Paizo guys that confirmed the battle was already well underway.
Remember even if it takes 100 hits to fell a dragon, eventually ONE of those hits will bring it below half HP. That doesn't mean that the hit which did so was responsible for half it's loss of health. The description didn't even read like it was the 1st round of combat anyway.
All of these assumptions (especially those based on a lack of critical reading skills) are just as annoying as the lack of solid information we have right now. >:|
EDIT: Heh, Keno beat me by 11 seconds.
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I was referring to the 'Conversion Manual' they produced when AD&D become D&D 3.
It's still available as in a zip file at Wizards, at the bottom of the following page...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
If they could convert (or at least attempt) AD&D to D20 then I am sure they can provide guidelines for 3.5 to 4th edition.
That was more than a rules tweak.
I think its more of a "they don't want to" thing. I asked about conversion from 3.5 to 4th and was told that while they plan to present some converted stats for villians/monsters from a few books this fall, they have no plans to release any kind of conversion notes.
I'm going to be converting some of my 3.5 stuff to 4.0 myself. There is a lot of chaff amid the wheat and some of 3.5 will be virtually incompatible. I will probably be converting the binder and warlock for my campaign and ditching books like Complete Champion (which is full of nonsense).
I'm just wandering whether they are going to have prestige classes? Now their absence will certainly annoy some people.
I'm just wandering whether they are going to have prestige classes? Now their absence will certainly annoy some people.
It certainly will annoy. Almost every character or NPC in my campaign uses a prestige class. The same is true of many other campaigns I am sure.
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My thoughts on 4E are these:
Now, as my players and I are just made the last step in getting real comfortable with the rules of 3.5, I am sure my players won't convert AGAIN to another system when they can to almost anything with the present rules (and our house rules).
I have not exactly a problem with new rules, but I hate the thought of NOT getting new material to instantly use in my campaigns.
Never before was the feeling so strong that WotC makes this move because of money (yeah, I life in a cave when it comes to business things), and I got the feeling that the step from 2E to 3E was important and neccessary. With 3.5 I never had the feeling of a system which is broken. Of course, sometimes the CR just don't fit, but that will happen with every RPG-System once in a while.
But this time, the step to 4E is nothing more then getting a company to print the same stuff again, just for a new rules set. I am 36 years old now, and I don't need to do that step with all the material I have.
Ptolus, Paizo's APs and the new Pathfinder (not to speak of cool DUNGEON adventures) hold a lifetime of good stuff to play 3.5 until my son's old enough to tell me that "6E is far better than anything you've ever done, Dad!"...
I sure will buy the Player's Handbook to check the new rules, but I will not do the transition to 4E. One big transition (Dungeon to Pathfinder) per decade is far enough for me!
Until we all know what 4E is about, we can only guess, and therefore it's void bashing other's heads about 4E-opinions.
Oh, and if someone find's meestaks here, I am german and english is not my first language... ;)
I think you may be confusing 1E with Basic D&D a little.
I started playing under 1E (of course it wasn't called that then, it was just AD&D) and loved it. When they switched to 2E ... well, I was less than impressed. We all stuck with 1E for a long time in fact.
I played some 2E but really didn't like it much. THACO? Come on.
Any way, I think it really is, to some extent anyway, what you grow up with. For me, playing AD&D as a 12 or 13 year old was the Golden Age. When 2E came out, D&D died a little for me.
Third Edition is actually what rekindled D&D for me.
I'm a 24 year D&D Vet. I started in 6th grade with AD&D, we had our many monty haul games back in the day.
2nd Ed...I say FHACK0 THAC0! I quit 2nd Edition years before 3rd edition came out...I was playing Earthdawn, Deadlands, and 7th Sea! (oh and White wolf games)
When D&D is bad, other new systems which are way more innovative and impressive are designed...
When 3.0 came out, I was impressed...
I like 3.5...I doubt I will like 4.0, I dislike being railroaded into an online format. I spend 8-10 hours a day working on the computer, I like to be able to sit down and crack open a book, not a computer to plan my D&D games!
I like being able to lie in bed and read my brand new book or Dragon or Dungeon the day it arrives!!! I think WoTC is making a huge mistake...and by my Pathfinder Charter Subscription tag, I will still be able to crack open a brand new periodical and lie in bed!
What say you? WHAT SAY YOU?!
You understand the point and you are right, congratulations!
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(...)
We'll eventually revisit many favorite parts of the previous edition, and along the way we'll also explore plenty of new territory as well.(...)
Now THIS sounds just like We just want to have your money again for practically the same stuff we already brought to you with 3E!
HATE!!!
Anyway, Xaaon of Xen'Drik, your other post is exactly what I feel! Thanx for putting it into words!
I find it disturbing that they are not planning on providing conversion guidelines for characters from D&D 3.5 to 4.0.
I own over 20 D&D books, some of which I bought in the last year like the Fiendish Codex I & II. Books that I bought while they were busy working on 4.0 which I find rather annoying
I have also invested a lot of time in creating the campaign world and don't want to start from scratch at level one again. Nor will my players want to do so.
So unless someone else comes up with some conversion guidelines it looks like I will be sticking with D&D 3.5 for some time.
You are not the only who feels cheated I feel the same way, they used us to buy their books when they knew very well they would become obsolete in few months. Many people will stay in 3.5 like you perhaps we could push WOTC to keep 3.5 for more years to come. Why does WOTC not give 4.0 to those who want it and give 3.5 to those who prefer so?
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I'm going to be converting some of my 3.5 stuff to 4.0 myself. There is a lot of chaff amid the wheat and some of 3.5 will be virtually incompatible. I will probably be converting the binder and warlock for my campaign and ditching books like Complete Champion (which is full of nonsense).
I'm just wandering whether they are going to have prestige classes? Now their absence will certainly annoy some people.
Now I'm far from a fan of the early indications of what will be 4ed, but lets do a quick mental exercise regarding prestige classes. Would it honestly be a bad idea if they were removed? What if the talent trees (ala Star Wars) were configurable enough to allow you to emulate many or most abilities formerly placed in prestige classes. Having more options & versatility built into the base classes would make the game simpler. Of course, without prestige classes what would Wotc put in their several hundred 4th edition splat books? ;). Poorly conceived/balanced prestige classes (not to mention core classes) are one of the things that annoyed me most about 3.5.
I have no idea if this is even on the horizon, but while I am unhappy with what has been revealed for 4ed so far, there is a lot in 3.5 i outright ignore. (i ignore all "Complete books" except the 1st 4. Also the Tome of battle, heroes of xxxx, etc... will not appear at my table)
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Well,...with the idea of fighters "excelling at one weapon" or whatever, this sounds somewhat like a "kit" from 2e. A "battle axe fighter" kit, a "spear fighter" kit....I think you could either do away with prestige classes, OR every "kit" ends up being its own prestige class when you go up enough levels; like what (I'm assuming)a "talent tree" is from the description above.
This is all just wild speculation, of course, on my part.
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I just hope they get all the kinks out of 4.0 in the next 6 years; then my son will be ready to play it.
I just started teaching 3.5 to my 5 year old a couple months back. We're going to start Hollow's Last Hope soon, but I'm wondering if I should hold off some until 4e comes out. I'm glossing over a lot of the rules, but I still don't want to get too far into it if I'm going to turn around and teach him new rules in a year. Decisions, decisions.