RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ok - so how smart, wise, or charismatic your character is really depends on how you play them. Your mental stats are completely subjective and a very rough reflection of how smart or wise your character really is.
With the physical stats, you know exactly what your character's limitations are. So...at least for intelligence....I was thinking about it last night, and came up with a rough corollary to IQ testing (which is, admittedly, also very subjective).
So, if we take an Intelligence score of 10 - which is base/completely average, we can compare that to an IQ of 100. 100 is considered completely dead "average" (again - whatever "average" means). A score of 11 is about 105 - still within the range of average.
If each point roughly equates to a 5 point bump on the IQ scale, the numbers really mirror each other pretty well - except when you talk about really high or low scores, where both systems tend to break apart (it's really hard to measure extremes).
A score of 12 is equivalent to 110 - the highest end of "average."
Using this system - a score of 16 is equivalent to an IQ of 130 - which is considered the breaking point for genius on the IQ scale. This is about right because a +3 modifier truly seperates you from the rest of the world on that particular attribute. A score of 18 would be equivalent to 140 - well into genius territory.
It is said that college students, again on average, have an IQ of about 120. This is equivalent to a 14 score for intelligence - a +2 modifier is reasonable for someone who received a complete education.
On the lower end - a score of 9 is equivalent to a -1 modifier, or an IQ of about 95. The person is a little slow, but not that bad. The comparison is fairly accurate, since the IQ range of "average" is 90 to 110, with derivations for low average and high average intelligence.
So, this helped me to better envision how smart a particular character/NPC is and how to play to type.
Any comments/criticisms/fine tuning?
So, if we take an Intelligence score of 10 - which is base/completely average, we can compare that to an IQ of 100. 100 is considered completely dead "average" (again - whatever "average" means). A score of 11 is about 105 - still within the range of average.
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If each point roughly equates to a 5 point bump on the IQ scale, the numbers really mirror each other pretty well - except when you talk about really high or low scores, where both systems tend to break apart (it's really hard to measure extremes).
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So, this helped me to better envision how smart a particular character/NPC is and how to play to type.
This site sumarizes, in brief, IQ scores.
http://wilderdom.com/intelligence/IQWhatScoresMean.htmlI seem to remember seeing somewhere that it was INt * 10 for IQ scores, but your scale seems more reasonable.
This would put IQ at 50 + (Int * 5)
IQ below 70 (or 4 on the D&D scale) is classified as feeblemindedness
so that seems to match up pretty well. It also means that Even mindless creatures (such as golems or undead) would have an IQ of about 50.
One problem is, how do your players play their characters.
Players often play their characters as smart as they are able to,
even when their character's may not be that intelligent.
Your villains, or at least their leader, should be close to as intelligent as the characters (or players).
A well organized group of average intelligence monsters can seem to outsmart a highly intelligent group, as long as the monsters are organized by a highly intelligent leader.
They don't have to be smart, they just have to obey orders.
Low intelligent NPCs are already penalized by lower skill points, making it easier for players to bluff, sneak, or otherwise bypass them.
I wouldn't worry too much about it honestly, play them as smart as you can.
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Ok - so how smart, wise, or charismatic your character is really depends on how you play them. Your mental stats are completely subjective and a very rough reflection of how smart or wise your character really is.
With the physical stats, you know exactly what your character's limitations are. So...at least for intelligence....I was thinking about it last night, and came up with a rough corollary to IQ testing (which is, admittedly, also very subjective).
So, if we take an Intelligence score of 10 - which is base/completely average, we can compare that to an IQ of 100. 100 is considered completely dead "average" (again - whatever "average" means). A score of 11 is about 105 - still within the range of average.
If each point roughly equates to a 5 point bump on the IQ scale, the numbers really mirror each other pretty well - except when you talk about really high or low scores, where both systems tend to break apart (it's really hard to measure extremes).
A score of 12 is equivalent to 110 - the highest end of "average."
Using this system - a score of 16 is equivalent to an IQ of 130 - which is considered the breaking point for genius on the IQ scale. This is about right because a +3 modifier truly seperates you from the rest of the world on that particular attribute. A score of 18 would be equivalent to 140 - well into genius territory.
It is said that college students, again on average, have an IQ of about 120. This is equivalent to a 14 score for intelligence - a +2 modifier is reasonable for someone who received a complete education.
On the lower end - a score of 9 is equivalent to a -1 modifier, or an IQ of about 95. The person is a little slow, but not that bad. The comparison is fairly accurate, since the IQ range of "average" is 90 to 110, with derivations for low average and high average intelligence.
So, this helped me to better envision how smart a particular character/NPC is and how to play to type.
Any comments/criticisms/fine tuning?
Wow, I never knew I had an 18 Int! (I.Q. 141)
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Wow, I never knew I had an 18 Int! (I.Q. 141)Yeah, my family must have some kind of racial bonus that I'm not aware of or I'm higher level than I thought because 18 is supposed to be the human maximum yet mine is 21 (IQ 157).
Weird.
"Mommy? Am I a level adjustment?"
Holy sweet mother of Jesus Christ on a ####### bicycle!
I propose an ability score cap of 18!
Either that, or you're over twelfth level. But that would just make sense, wouldn't it.
Which is why I usually use INTx10~ IQ. IRL, Above 130 or so, most tests break down and can't give any closer than a +/- 10 points estimation. Of course, anything over 130 is suppossed to be in the top 2-5% of all human intellect anyway. Oi, are we in trouble :)
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I seem to remember seeing somewhere that it was INt * 10 for IQ scores, but your scale seems more reasonable.Yup, the Sage has established that the official stance in D&D is that IQ = Int X 10.
Jeez. I've gone by three different standards and gotten three different scores: 14, 16, and 18. WHICH ONE IS IT?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I seem to remember seeing somewhere that it was INt * 10 for IQ scores, but your scale seems more reasonable.Yup, the Sage has established that the official stance in D&D is that IQ = Int X 10.
Yeah, I thought I had seen that somewhere. Of course, by this standard, those wizards with 18 Intelligence are TERRIFYINGLY smart. And the dragons with 30+ Intel? Don't even TRY to comprehend. You can't.
14.1 for you ;)
13.5 for me :(
But I have a high WIS, so its ok :)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Yeah, I thought I had seen that somewhere. Of course, by this standard, those wizards with 18 Intelligence are TERRIFYINGLY smart. And the dragons with 30+ Intel? Don't even TRY to comprehend. You can't.I seem to remember seeing somewhere that it was INt * 10 for IQ scores, but your scale seems more reasonable.Yup, the Sage has established that the official stance in D&D is that IQ = Int X 10.
Which makes sense when you talk about incredibly powerful wyrms that have lived for centuries and seen/done things that men can't comprehend.
I dunno...just a helpful guide for me really. It helps you to play a character to the level of their given intellect. Just a rough guide really.
Oh, you're a kender? ;)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I've got me an odd combination, I do. Low Wis and above-average Dex.
Not so odd, really. The majority of my friends fall into this category. Capable of very flashy displays of hand-eye coordination and amazing feats of athletic prowess... but plagued by a lack of foresight which leads them to attempt increasingly difficult tricks until they outstrip their own talents and end up hurting themselves grievously.
My WIS and DEX are both comfortably average, I think. Possibly on the high side of average for DEX (12-13).
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I've got me an odd combination, I do. Low Wis and above-average Dex.Not so odd, really. The majority of my friends fall into this category. Capable of very flashy displays of hand-eye coordination and amazing feats of athletic prowess... but plagued by a lack of foresight which leads them to attempt increasingly difficult tricks until they outstrip their own talents and end up hurting themselves grievously.
My WIS and DEX are both comfortably average, I think. Possibly on the high side of average for DEX (12-13).
My friends either fall into either the low Wis, low Dex, high Str category (rather dangerous, all things considered), or the low Wis, low Dex, high Int (more dangerous to themselves than to others).
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I seem to remember seeing somewhere that it was INt * 10 for IQ scores, but your scale seems more reasonable.Yup, the Sage has established that the official stance in D&D is that IQ = Int X 10.
Ah, crud. You think you have a good idea/semi-original thought and it has already been officially covered.
Twice in one month! Fie! A pox on you all!
(My other idea was for an undead familiar.)
Maybe I should research what I'm thinking of first, so I don't reinvent the wheel.
Or maybe, I could just blame McArtor. Yeah...and sick my gnome death ninjas on him.
By that formula, a dog with INT 2 would have an IQ of 60, making him smarter than many mentally deficient persons who nonetheless manage to learn to speak, dress themselves, and do all manner of things dogs don't generally do. IQ 20 sounds a lot more reasonable to me. The difficulty is that IQ tests are designed for humans, not to be universally applicable to dragons, elves, gnomes, dogs, allips, oozes, etc.
An 18 Int is a 1 in 256 chance, or about .5%. A 180 IQ is staggeringly less common than that.
10 x Int = Bad At Math :P
Contributor
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An 18 Int is a 1 in 256 chance, or about .5%. A 180 IQ is staggeringly less common than that.
10 x Int = Bad At Math :P
Except that the vast majority of the population of a game world doesn't get to roll their stats; they either get all 10s and 11s, the non-elite array, or the elite array, or no assigned stats. Rolled stats are reserved for heroes. And it's only a guideline, and it measures up pretty well in all other regards, at least as well as IQ tests actually measure anything useful.
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I propose the following:
1 - 6
2 - 10
3 - 15
4 - 21
5 - 28
6 - 36
7 - 45
8 - 55
9 - 66
10 - 78
11 - 91
12 - 105
13 - 120
14 - 136
15 - 153
16 - 171
17 - 190
18 - 210
19 - 231
20 - 253
21 - 276
22 - 300
23 - 325
24 - 351
25 - 378
26 - 406
27 - 435
28 - 465
29 - 496
30 - 528
formula is unintuitive: (int+3)+((int+2)/2)
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We had this dilemma a couple of years ago. Here's how i choose to deal with it. Seems our players were cool with it. Simplicity seems best at times...
100 IQ = Stat score of 10
110=11
120=12
130=13
140=14
150=15
160=16
170=17
180=18
So a person with an IQ of 180 gets an Intelligence stat of 18. Or you can have some fun with it and take the D&D stat test offered by www.okcupid.com.
Thoth-Amon has left his mental signature
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By that formula, a dog with INT 2 would have an IQ of 60, making him smarter than many mentally deficient persons who nonetheless manage to learn to speak, dress themselves, and do all manner of things dogs don't generally do. IQ 20 sounds a lot more reasonable to me. The difficulty is that IQ tests are designed for humans, not to be universally applicable to dragons, elves, gnomes, dogs, allips, oozes, etc.
The problem is easily solved by taking non-sentient creatures (INT 1 and 2) off the scale. I submit that the scale must be presumed to be discontinuous below 3 anyway. Unless you think that mealworms should be construed as having an IQ of 10?
The other problem with the default scale is that a 5 pt. IQ bounce with experience is much more believable than a 10 pt. bounce. While IQ rises with education, it certainly doesn't rise by 30 points between 34 and 70 years of age. (Without considering level-based increases.)
I like the formula presented here. For what it's worth, however, I've always believed that all the mental stats must be examined as a whole (and then integrated with the physical stats for a new whole). For example, my current character is a half-orc cleric with 7 Int, 16 Wis, and 14 Cha. Certainly not an academic, but such a character would know the ways of the world and its peoples, and obviously isn't a drooling bufoon (14 Cha).
He may not be able to define syntax, but he can use it properly (something my DM doesn't seem to understand).
Agree on ultra low scores throwing off th emodel. I feel most ultra high ones do too :)
And I think thats the important thing to remember. DnD stats are based on the possible rolls on 3d6, not any kind of real world parity. The stat bumps you refer to (for ageing i assume?) are a perfect example of that. If anything, your IQ (difference between mental and physical age) would go DOWN with age as your age rises versus your
"mental age", while your ability to learn new concepts would also decrease, but your ability to make inferenctial judgements base don experience (ie wisdom) would infact go up. But you can't bump one caster stat with age, or we'd all be aged clerics :) Its one of the disconnects between reality and game mechanics we must either accept, or let drive us mad :)
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Even though the Sage opened up his mouth to chime in on this I believe he is dead wrong on this account. I was always under the impression that intelligence does not reflect I.Q, but rather the speed in which one processes information, how much information they retain and their ability to learn new things in the realm of D&D. I have heard different examples (none of which I can recite)of the comparison being that although X has an 8 intelligence and Y has a 14 intelligence it doesn't mean that Y is smarter than X, only that Y would be able to form a conclusion based on facts presented in a much faster manner.
The comparison of int to IQ doesn't really work in D&D in my opinion and magic items that boost int seem to reinforce my assertation. I could more reasonably see an item that makes your thoughts flow better and clearer than an item that makes me suddenly able to understand Nuclear Physics.
More knowledge doesn't necessarily equate to a higher intelligence level either. I could do algebra and calculus in my head before I ever learned a single one of the equations necessary to complete problems. My teacher always thought I was cheating or using a calculator but what he refused to even try to understand was that even though he had a full college education and background with mathematic, I was smarter than he was on a basic level. Sure, he had much more knowledge, but there is no way he could've done what I was able to do.
That is why IQ and int scores shouldn't be related IMO
FH
For example, my current character is a half-orc cleric with 7 Int, 16 Wis, and 14 Cha. Certainly not an academic, but such a character would know the ways of the world and its peoples, and obviously isn't a drooling bufoon (14 Cha).
See in this case, I'd side with your DM. He may be personable, and have a lot of common sense, but he is probably retarded by any measure. Somewhat like Lenny in "Mice and Men". Can raise corn all day, but readin an grammer, well, they ain't his strong points. Hopefully his religion is not based on texts, cuz his reading comp ain't likely to be too good. But he is an excellent judge of character, just gets feelins about a person, and uses his limited vocabulary to get his points across simply but clearly. Tough to role play, i reckon.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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In response to FH:
IQ isn't based on education or knowledge. It's based on a person's ability to perceive, sort, and analyze certain pieces of information quickly. That's why IQ tests are timed. Just because you have a high IQ doesn't mean that you understand how to do nuclear physics, it just means that you are able to process and sort information faster and more efficiently than others. Most of the questions on IQ tests are word scrambles, 'find the pattern,' 'which one of these does not belong,' and other such things. Education is not much of a factor at all.
Now, on the other hand, if you had two students who knew nothing about nuclear physics and provided them with the same teacher who TAUGHT THEM nuclear physics, the high IQ student would learn more quickly and retain more of what he had learned (assuming he paid as much attention as the other student and all other variables were equal). High IQ people are also more capable of thinking 'outside-the-box' by applying known principles to unknown situations.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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My characters with intelligence scores 18+ (with or without modifiers) additionally make a one-time % roll for psychological disorders and emotional/social adjustment handicaps. Doing this requires me to play NPCs and the players to conduct their PCs with some genuine role-playing.
We do something similar since high Intelligence does often impose psychological 'quirks' on people. We say that if your Intelligence exceeds you racial level 1 maximum AND exceeds your Wisdom by 10 points or more, there is a chance that you develop some sort of psychological oddity. The reason we tie it to Wisdom is because Wisdom is tied to common sense, perception, and rationality. When your intellect vastly outpaces your common sense and rational thought, you begin to drift into the realm of insanity.
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While IQ tests do not test education, there've been peer-reviewed studies that indicate that IQ <i>does</i> rise with education. My suspicion is that formal education increases your ability to process information in a wide variety of ways. Also, note that IQ tests are population-based, not objective, and that they have been regularly renormed since they were first created, which has had some odd effects: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031020053951.htm
For example, my current character is a half-orc cleric with 7 Int, 16 Wis, and 14 Cha. Certainly not an academic, but such a character would know the ways of the world and its peoples, and obviously isn't a drooling bufoon (14 Cha).See in this case, I'd side with your DM. He may be personable, and have a lot of common sense, but he is probably retarded by any measure. Somewhat like Lenny in "Mice and Men". Can raise corn all day, but readin an grammer, well, they ain't his strong points. Hopefully his religion is not based on texts, cuz his reading comp ain't likely to be too good. But he is an excellent judge of character, just gets feelins about a person, and uses his limited vocabulary to get his points across simply but clearly. Tough to role play, i reckon.
Well, therein lies the ambiguity of ability scores and the numerous ways to interpret them. :) I don't want to play someone who is openly suffering from mental retardation, so I choose to have the 16 Wisdom and 14 Charisma override that. He is just very, very much a "shoot first, talk later" kind of guy, and never even gives books the chance to frustrate him by simply throwing them aside if presented to him. Also, the game does assume he can read, which I view as necessary for him being a spellcaster an all (and thus able to use scrolls).
Wow, I never knew I had an 18 Int! (I.Q. 141)Yeah, my family must have some kind of racial bonus that I'm not aware of or I'm higher level than I thought because 18 is supposed to be the human maximum yet mine is 21 (IQ 157).
Weird.
"Mommy? Am I a level adjustment?"
IQ about 145-150. Meh, I don't mind the 19, at next level divisable by four I can up it and get a bonus fifth level spell.
Either that, or you're over twelfth level. But that would just make sense, wouldn't it.Well, I have been gaming for over 12 years, so according to Lawgiver's "Gamer Level Determination" guidelines, I would be over 12th level.
Hmmm, this makes me 10th level. Maybe I started with a 17 and bumped it twice... I feel less special.
An aside: How about the D&D character who, although possessing an astounding INT score, doesn't ply it in ambitious ways? I like the dynamic of the what a waste character. My IQ has been institutionally tested a few times, and the results were all consistent with one another and made me mum proud, but I seldom share my scores because in so doing I'll wind up looking deeply insecure and trying to prove something, and more importantly, people would expect so much more from me than I care to, or am able to demonstrate.
In Varisia some might expect a fellow with my gymnastic grey matter (el boasto) to develop into a wizard or a shrewd guildmaster by trade, but there'd you'd find me instead, a dangerously chatty though well indulged human courtesan to the faery queen herself. She'd make me wear a big yellow chiffon bowtie around my neck, and silver buckled shoes, and I'd soft jig for her pleasures and oft frig for good measure. Now figure out how such a gigolo would apply his soaring INT score to his absurd way of life and you'd have yourself a compelling read.
And then there's the sewage worker with his 18 charisma, making for quite the memorable NPC encounter.
What of a fruit vendor with maxed strength? That lady could literally put her cart on her back and walk it through the mud. Someone steals an apple from her and they might get pegged with a melon hurled at cannonball speed.
"Ke-rann-berr-EEZ!"
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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An aside: How about the D&D character who, although possessing an astounding INT score, doesn't ply it in ambitious ways? I like the dynamic of the what a waste character. My IQ has been institutionally tested a few times, and the results were all consistent with one another and made me mum proud, but I seldom share my scores because in so doing I'll wind up looking deeply insecure and trying to prove something, and more importantly, people would expect so much more from me than I care to, or am able to demonstrate.
In Varisia some might expect a fellow with my gymnastic grey matter (el boasto) to develop into a wizard or a shrewd guildmaster by trade, but there'd you'd find me instead, a dangerously chatty though well indulged human courtesan to the faery queen herself. She'd make me wear a big yellow chiffon bowtie around my neck, and silver buckled shoes, and I'd soft jig for her pleasures and oft frig for good measure. Now figure out how such a gigolo would apply his soaring INT score to his absurd way of life and you'd have yourself a compelling read.
And then there's the sewage worker with his 18 charisma, making for quite the memorable NPC encounter.
What of a fruit vendor with maxed strength? That lady could literally put her cart on her back and walk it through the mud. Someone steals an apple from her and they might get pegged with a melon hurled at cannonball speed.
"Ke-rann-berr-EEZ!"
I like the vendor idea - she's built like a tank. I also like the prospect of telling a cocky PC that they just had their ass handed to them by a 56 year old, 2nd level commoner.
I love PCs and NPCs with unusual scores that go against the norm. This is one the reasons why I begged for the Pathfinder Iconics to have stats determined by rolling rather than the cookie cutter elite build.
I like the vendor idea - she's built like a tank. I also like the prospect of telling a cocky PC that they just had their ass handed to them by a 56 year old, 2nd level commoner.
I love PCs and NPCs with unusual scores that go against the norm. This is one the reasons why I begged for the Pathfinder Iconics to have stats determined by rolling rather than the cookie cutter elite build.
Word on all counts!
IQ isn't based on education or knowledge. It's based on a person's ability to perceive, sort, and analyze certain pieces of information quickly. That's why IQ tests are timed.
Though it has also been established that the IQ-education correlation can go both ways, people with higher education also learn to score better in IQ tests. Not to mention cultural effects etc (any kind of verbal component in IQ tests brings in strong cultural bias).
Personally I would go for probabilities...IQ 148+ correlates to highest 2% of population, which means IQ 17 or 18. I don't buy that "only heroes roll stats", I am happy to include street vendor with IQ 17 in the world.
That example of low INT-high Wis-high CHA character...I would probably play that as someone who thinks quickly on their feet but is hopelessly scatterbrained, maybe with very short attention span. No future in academia, but can be shining person in everyday life.
I was always under the impression that average IQ was 80-100. It would make sense that average constitutes a range rather than one exact number.
The int*10=IQ score is a carry over from 1st edition or 2nd edition. I think that is where the sage derived his answer from. Short and sweet.
Third edition has seen inflation of goods as well as ability scores. I think x10 is too high since the world record of 204 (I believe) was set by a child. The x5 idea seems to be too low, an 18int=140 IQ. Somewhere in the middle is probably better. Perhaps multipling by 8 or 9 would be better.
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I took a test, and it told me I had two less points of Wis than I had fingers.14.1 for you ;)
But I have a high WIS, so its ok :)
Oh no, I have had all of my Wisdom teeth removed, I am in big trouble
=(
No, I'M in big trouble. I still have all of mine, and I only have an 8 Wis. What if I have to have them removed?