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Campaign Cartographer 3 or Dundjinni?


D&D 3.5/d20/OGL


Which should I get? I've never used any mapping software befor so I would want on that would be relativley easy to learn how to use. Which produces better results? Which is easier to use? Feedback appreciated.


Arctaris wrote:

Which should I get?

Which produces better results?

Which is easier to use?

Dundjinni

CC3 if you know how to really use it well, Dundjinni if not
(honestly, Illustrator/Photoshop in tandem is best, actually, but hardly in the same price range)

Dundjinni

HTH,

Rez

Grand Lodge

Dundjini is better at battle mats. It is pretty simple and ha a lot of fan support.

CC3 is great for overland maps and the big picture. It can be a bit challenging to use however.

Photoshop is great of course. To get a "cheap" version of PS go to eBay and wait for a copy of Photoshop 5, 6, or 7 to come up cheap, about $50 or so. Then buy an upgrade to CS or CS2 for cheap. The latest update is CS3 and it will not be cheap. You can get by easily for most uses with 7, CS or CS2. This should cost about $100-$150 for Photoshop.

Qadira

Nother one for Dundjinni.

The messageboards over there have more user created and free art for it than you will ever be able to use.
Very easy to use also. Definately do the tutorial though, it lets you see some aspects of the program more clearly.

FH


Arctaris wrote:
Which should I get? I've never used any mapping software befor so I would want on that would be relativley easy to learn how to use. Which produces better results? Which is easier to use? Feedback appreciated.

I have both and they are great for different things. CC3 is fantastic for small-scale maps, while Dundjinni is best for tactical scale maps. CC3 has a really steep learning curve, though, while with Dundjinni you can be up and running after going through a short tutorial. So for a first time user of mapping software, I'd recommend that.


Thanks everyone! I'll probably get Dundjinni now and mabye get CC3 once I understand that kind of program better. I've been looking around and I can't seem to find it anywhere. Where could I get a copy?


Krome wrote:


Photoshop is great of course. To get a "cheap" version of PS go to eBay and wait for a copy of Photoshop 5, 6, or 7 to come up cheap, about $50 or so. Then buy an upgrade to CS or CS2 for cheap. The latest update is CS3 and it will not be cheap. You can get by easily for most uses with 7, CS or CS2. This should cost about $100-$150 for Photoshop.

For a free version of Photoshop just pick up Gimp. Its basically the same thing but open source. Of course Niether Photoshop or Gimp are really easy to use.


Arctaris wrote:
Thanks everyone! I'll probably get Dundjinni now and mabye get CC3 once I understand that kind of program better. I've been looking around and I can't seem to find it anywhere. Where could I get a copy?

You can purchase a download version on their website http://www.dundjinni.com/


I'm on dial-up so a download version isn't practical for me. Is there anywhere else?

Grand Lodge

Ok so I decided to try out Gimp. A free Photoshop after all, gotta try that.

Almost two hours later of trying to install and reinstall, download, redownload, I realize why it is free. No one in their right mind would ever pay for it! I guess you get what you pay for.


Hmmm. I'd used only very basic mapping software (that often left me wishing I could do this or that) before trying out GIMP, and I fell in love with GIMP after 2 days. Since then I've used nothing else. And no, I'm not a computer graphics professional and had never tried Photoshop before.

What sort of trouble did you have, Krome?


Arctaris wrote:
Which should I get? I've never used any mapping software befor so I would want on that would be relativley easy to learn how to use. Which produces better results? Which is easier to use? Feedback appreciated.

i have both and as has been said here by pretty much everyone else Dundjinni is much easier to use. it may interest you to know that they are puting together Dundjinni 2.0 using a lot of input from those creators that post on the forum over there.

cant wait

Kendrik

Shadow Lodge

Krome wrote:

Ok so I decided to try out Gimp. A free Photoshop after all, gotta try that.

Almost two hours later of trying to install and reinstall, download, redownload, I realize why it is free. No one in their right mind would ever pay for it! I guess you get what you pay for.

I am not sure what problems you had with the Gimp, but it is very high quality software. It is exceedingly stable and has been used around the world for years.

Be aware that Gimp is a cross platform software; you need to get the right version for your OS. If you are running Windows, you will want to go here to get your download. Be sure to carefully read the download information as you need to make a couple of downloads to get everything the first time.

Lastly, in software, you absolutely do not get what you pay for. This is a forgein concept in commercial software development. You get a product that is priced based upon the estimated benefit which you derive from its use. In general, the price of software rarely depends on the quality of the released software. The price of a software product is based upon three things: the time to write the software, the desired end quality and the feature set the software provides. It is a well known adage in the development industry that a software firm can control only two of the these three things (That is, you cannot fix, at project outset, the time in which the software will be finished, the feature set included and the final quality; something has to be allowed to float). Since businesses promise certain features in each release and mandate costs (thus fixing the time allowed for development), quality almost always suffers.

Free software does not suffer from this in that the cost to develop the code is free (the coders are almost always working pro bono) and there is no corporate-mandated fixed costs and delivery dates, the software is allowed to reach a stable state before it is realeased. Unstable or beta versions are marked just that so the user can be aware of the software quality he is using. (Have a look at the URL I linked, and notice the word STABLE in there).

Ok, I am far enough off topic, but you get the idea.

Qadira

Lich-Loved wrote:
Krome wrote:

Ok so I decided to try out Gimp. A free Photoshop after all, gotta try that.

Almost two hours later of trying to install and reinstall, download, redownload, I realize why it is free. No one in their right mind would ever pay for it! I guess you get what you pay for.

I am not sure what problems you had with the Gimp, but it is very high quality software. It is exceedingly stable and has been used around the world for years.

Be aware that Gimp is a cross platform software; you need to get the right version for your OS. If you are running Windows, you will want to go here to get your download. Be sure to carefully read the download information as you need to make a couple of downloads to get everything the first time.

Lastly, in software, you absolutely do not get what you pay for. This is a forgein concept in commercial software development. You get a product that is priced based upon the estimated benefit which you derive from its use. In general, the price of software rarely depends on the quality of the released software. The price of a software product is based upon three things: the time to write the software, the desired end quality and the feature set the software provides. It is a well known adage in the development industry that a software firm can control only two of the these three things (That is, you cannot fix, at project outset, the time in which the software will be finished, the feature set included and the final quality; something has to be allowed to float). Since businesses promise certain features in each release and mandate costs (thus fixing the time allowed for development), quality almost always suffers.

Free software does not suffer from this in that the cost to develop the code is free (the coders are almost always working pro bono) and there is no corporate-mandated fixed costs and delivery dates, the software is allowed to reach a stable state before it is realeased. Unstable or beta...

Agreed on all counts. I love GIMP but it is definately a steep learning curve. I just know enough to do what I need to do. I use it to reproduce some player handouts and such, tweak images, resize and stuff like that.

I had no difficulty at all installing it or getting it to work.

FH


You can purchase Dundjinni here at Paizo.


Its on backorder, and has been for several months.


Arctaris wrote:
Its on backorder, and has been for several months.

Shows what I get for not looking before I open my mouth...sorry 'bout that. :(


Krome wrote:

Ok so I decided to try out Gimp. A free Photoshop after all, gotta try that.

Almost two hours later of trying to install and reinstall, download, redownload, I realize why it is free. No one in their right mind would ever pay for it! I guess you get what you pay for.

Works great for me. I used to use both but the only thing I actually used Photoshop for was drawing of little arrows (no arrow drawing feature in gimp). Eventually I just got rid of Photoshop. It was some far out of date version in anycase.

They could do to make installing it easier however.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

Ok. One vote in favour of CC3. ;-)

CC3 is currently able to do the same brilliant kind of maps Dundjinni is able to do. Add to that the already excellent overland maps.

But as people above mentioned: it takes time to find out how to use it properly.

Btw. CC3 is available at http://www.profantasy.com/ .

Greetings,
Günther


How hard is CC3 to learn? Does it come with comprehensive instructions? Is there a good tutorial available?


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

I used to use both (GIMP and Photoshop) but the only thing I actually used Photoshop for was drawing of little arrows (no arrow drawing feature in gimp). Eventually I just got rid of Photoshop. It was some far out of date version in anycase.

They could do to make installing it easier however.

You can download some arrow brushes from the web to add the arrow-drawing feature. In fact, you can download heaps of other brushes/patterns that extend the GIMP's functionality considerably.

And I'm not sure how they could make installing it easier. If you use Linux, you're probably used to more complicated installation procedures than GIMP's. If you use Windows, the Windows installation involves just clicking the downloaded executables?

Did I say I fell in love with GIMP?


Vivriel wrote:
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

I used to use both (GIMP and Photoshop) but the only thing I actually used Photoshop for was drawing of little arrows (no arrow drawing feature in gimp). Eventually I just got rid of Photoshop. It was some far out of date version in anycase.

They could do to make installing it easier however.

You can download some arrow brushes from the web to add the arrow-drawing feature. In fact, you can download heaps of other brushes/patterns that extend the GIMP's functionality considerably.

And I'm not sure how they could make installing it easier. If you use Linux, you're probably used to more complicated installation procedures than GIMP's. If you use Windows, the Windows installation involves just clicking the downloaded executables?

Did I say I fell in love with GIMP?

Want to give me a link to all these cool brushs?

Regarding the windows installer. I want them to have a file that you download and then press on and it installs the program. If that exists, then the website is the problem, as it is not making it clear.

Grand Lodge

I use OSX, which is normally the easiest installs I have ever seen in computers (yes I use both Mac and PC extensively). The first install loads tons of crud but no Gimp, second isntall loads Gimp but you must use a obscure add on from the install disk. And I am not going to reinstall my OS.

I have been reading up on Gimp and for applications like this it seems rather useful, but it is no Photoshop. Maybe a soupped up Paint, but no Photoshop. It has similar abilities, but not the same. I use Photoshop professionally, and from what I see so far from websites, I will not switch. However, if you do not need the extra muscle then it is a great option. Especially since it is free. Not knocking it all. I would recommend it over Photoshop unless you want to make cartography your profession.

CC3 has tutorials, but no matter what it has a STEEP learning curve. It is a CAD program, and as always they are not intuitive. Once you master the weirdness and odd way of thinking it works wonderfully and you can create amazing maps.

Dundjinni is about as basic as they come. If it were not for the user support I would say too simple. However, the massive fan support takes a bare bones program and turns it into a knock out that is easy to learn and use.

That being said, CC3 is awesome at creating worlds, continents, and nations. Dundjinni is great at battlemaps. Photoshop/Gimp is the top notch for both.


Arctaris wrote:
How hard is CC3 to learn? Does it come with comprehensive instructions? Is there a good tutorial available?

Campaign Cartographer comes with an extensive instruction manual and tutorial that guides you step-by-step through a sample map of a continent. It will take some time and a fair bit of practice to get really comfortable using it, but you can do some amazing stuff. One of the really cool features is that you can link maps - so you could create and link a fully detailed city map to the city's icon on the continent map; click on the city icon and it opens up the city map. Likewise you could then create a detailed map of a castle or dungeon in the city and link that to its icon on the city map. This is a really useful feature if you use a laptop at the game table. CC software is a version of CAD, which is very powerful and, like Photoshop, most casual users will never utilize most of the features.

If you're looking to buy a hard-copy version of Dundjinni, since you're on dial-up, you can purchase the CD from their website in addition to the download version. Dundjinni also has a PDF tutorial available on their website, which will take you through a simple map of a jail. This tutorial is nowhere near as extensive as CC's but the software is also much simpler and more intuitive to get the hang of.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Krome wrote:
That being said, CC3 is awesome at creating worlds, continents, and nations. Dundjinni is great at battlemaps. Photoshop/Gimp is the top notch for both.

If I had a choice of only one tool for D&D maps, I'd probably choose Illustrator rather than Photoshop. I find that RPG maps tend to want draw programs more than paint programs, because maps of interiors are more common than maps of exteriors. Ideally, of course, I'd use both. It's really too bad there isn't an Illustrator Elements. 8-)

Oh, and a randomish fractal draw tool (like the one in CC) for Illustrator would be nice, too. Bezier curves are nice for a lot of things, but for coastlines not so much.

BTW, Photoshop Elements has all of the stuff I need (and most of the stuff I want) from Photoshop. It lacks CMYK support, which is really important if you're sending to an offset printer, and a few other things that are nice, but most of that isn't all that important for my use at home. And Elements is just fine for most home photo editing as well, so the price is easier to justify.

Whatever tools you use, though, don't feel like you're missing something obvious if you find no easy way to make a really nice-looking map. There isn't one. The best you can do is "easier than the last time".


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

Want to give me a link to all these cool brushs?

Regarding the windows installer. I want them to have a file that you download and then press on and it installs the program. If that exists, then the website is the problem, as it is not making it clear.

Ummm... when I need brushes, I just google "GIMP brushes" or something like that, so I don't keep the links.

But www.gimptalk.com is a good place to start. The Resources section under the home page has a lot of user-posted links to useful brushes.

As for the Windows installer, it's 3 files instead of 1, but installation involves just clicking on the three executables in order. Yeah, I suppose they could put them into one file, but it'd involve more frequent updates when just one part changes.


Vivriel wrote:


Ummm... when I need brushes, I just google "GIMP brushes" or something like that, so I don't keep the links.

Cool - I just found an arrow generating plug in. Thats even better then arrow bruches. Oh wait here are some arrow brushes too...guess I'll take them both.


You can create fractal-ish landmasses in Photoshop, here's a sample of what you can do.

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