So let me get this straight...


Dragon and Dungeon Transition Discussion

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Vic Wertz wrote:
Ekchuah wrote:
After I discovered eBay five years ago, I switched to purchasing most of my D&D items (aside from Dragon issues and some novels) from it instead of RW stores.

I think this comic was meant for you.

Prefer words? Here's a brief statement from one of my favorite authors, Michael A. Stackpole. It applies to publishers as well as writers.

Loved the Full Frontal comic. Although, I must admit, the fact that the magazines were available to read and consider, that is in the stores, and not just a electronic file sitting in some computer server, is the way many people entered or got back into the hobby.

Also, hate to say it, but from what Paizo has been saying, sales were up, and thus low sales were not a factor in the decision. If this were the case, then the two articles are misleading.

Frankly I found the second article to be nearly flat out insulting. I have always had a deep love of used books stores. While yes, technically the author of the material is getting no material gain from the sale (kinda like painters after the sale of their painting) used book stores form the backbone of the literary community. for one thing, lets be honest, Shakespeare's relatives aren't making any profit off of his works anyhow, so by buying a new copy, all you support, other than the editor/translator of the new version, is the publishing company. That is the case for the vast majority of major works in the English language, aka. that they have entered the commons and therefor their copyrights no longer hold. This is good. Thus used bookstores allow us to approach these storehouses of knowledge, the bastion of human discovery, from a more affordable perspective.

And anyhow, it's good for a book to be read 5-6 times, it means that the materials that made it have gotten recycled as it were, and rather efficiently. The author of that article also should have recommended to buy said new books from a independent bookseller, rather than the Barnes/Borders of the world, thus supporting those bookstores that not only keep dollars local, and thus uplift the local economy, but also keep dialogs open, allow for local flavor to come through, and help publish and sell books from new upcoming authors, who the big-wigs would pass over. I would also add that democracy is based upon 'the people' being knowledgeable, and that control over the dissemination of printed material by two chains of nearly identical bookstores, is rather antithetical to the base values and safety of said democracy.

My buying cheap used copies of dungeon and Dragon led me to eventually buying a subscription to Dungeon, and was pushing me towards subscribing to Dragon, before the aforementioned recent announcement. Used sales not only allow for a safe test run of a magazine but also they support local gaming stores, the hearts blood of the gaming and comics industry, once they are gone, I am sure that both hobbies will suffer greatly.

My 2 cents.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Vic Wertz wrote:
Ekchuah wrote:
After I discovered eBay five years ago, I switched to purchasing most of my D&D items (aside from Dragon issues and some novels) from it instead of RW stores.

I think this comic was meant for you.

Prefer words? Here's a brief statement from one of my favorite authors, Michael A. Stackpole. It applies to publishers as well as writers.

This seems to imply that the authors of pathfinder are paid royalties. Is that true, or will Paizo continue to buy all rights to the material?

I'm not trying to imply that Paizo doesn't deserve our support, too. Nor that there aren't benefits to an author if their publisher knows that their works sell, but AFAIK the authors of articles for Dungeon and Dragon are paid flat rate once only, regardless of how well the magazine circulates.

The compensation, of course, is that Paizo takes the risk. I'm just curious if Paizo is changing their payment structure.

Paizo Employee CEO

Rambling Scribe wrote:

This seems to imply that the authors of pathfinder are paid royalties. Is that true, or will Paizo continue to buy all rights to the material?

The compensation, of course, is that Paizo takes the risk. I'm just curious if Paizo is changing their payment structure.

Nope. We never paid royalties on Dragon and Dungeon products and won't be for Pathfinder or the other GameMastery products. We pay a flat rate fee for all rights.

-Lisa

Sovereign Court Contributor

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Nope. We never paid royalties on Dragon and Dungeon products and won't be for Pathfinder or the other GameMastery products. We pay a flat rate fee for all rights.

-Lisa

Thanks for the clarification!

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Balabanto wrote:

Well, I really hope it IS a journal. Because if it's a journal, we can get around OGL by using this wonderful organization called the MLA.

Need a statblock wizards hasn't OGLed, or owns the right to? Just put an MLA citation down at the bottom and write a short critical analysis of the adventure afterwards.

Place a bibliography at the end of the article, and there's absolutely NOTHING wizards can do. I used to write these sorts of papers to get a masters degree, and trust me, if Pathfinder goes the route of the Scholarly D+D journal, wizards WILL have to eat it as long as everything is properly cited, bibliographied, and referenced.

It's a little more work, but in terms of licensing agreements, it doesn't matter, because no court will uphold Wizards right to deny people the right to do scholarly research on their product.

While there is a substantial exception for scholarly journals, copyright law is not as easy to circumvent as "add some footnotes and publish it in a journal." Even if Paizo were to brand the journal as a scholarly publication, given Paizo's history as a for profit publication, it's lack of affiliation with any educational institution, and the questionable academic value of such a journal, I can't imagine any court buying such an argument.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The point of my linking to that strip and that essay is, in this context, that there is a secondary market for products, and that when people *bypass* the primary market for the perceived financial advantage offered by the secondary market, that's bad for the market as a whole.

Mike Stackpole wasn't saying not to shop at used book stores—in fact, he explicitly said that he sometimes shops at them himself. He was saying that when you use it to bypass the primary market, there are two important side effects. One is that the stakeholders for the product don't get any of the revenue for that sale, and the other is that, essentially, your "vote" for what makes a good product doesn't get counted.

And the point of the comic strip is that when too many people bypass the primary market, that hurts the ability for that product to succeed and continue.

In short, if you only buy Paizo products secondhand on eBay, you help two people: yourself and the seller. But, by bypassing the primary market, you hurt a lot of people. Here are the names of just a few of them.

Sovereign Court Contributor

I completely agree with your point Vic. Sorry for my momentary confusion.


[Rant=start]

Now, If I understand what you're saying with your posting of the cartoon & article, because I became more selective in my purchasing in the last few years, I have helped to destroy the profitability of printing books? That I, and others like me, have virtually stolen the food from the writers & publishers mouths with our frugality & unwillingness to buy overpriced products for the sake of some corporation's idea of what is right & good?

...Wow. I didn't realize I was so powerful. Maybe I should take GOD up on his offer of an All-or-nothing, one-arm-tied-behind-my-back UFC-style match. I was kind of worried about the odds, but now that I know what I'm working with, I say bring the old geezer on!

As I said in my original post, I have been using eBay for only the last five years. For the previous 15 years, I purchased close to 90% of novels & assorted "stuff" new from bookstores & gameshops. The minority I obtained secondhand from friends, used-book stores, the occasional garage sale, etc. As my book & magazine collection now numbers 2-3,000 items, I would say I've helped pay quite a few people's rent checks. I think that entitles me to pick & choose what I wish to read for awhile, don't you?

[/Rant=done]

(Oh, and sorry about all of the "I's". It comes from being raised on a potato farm)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Ekchuah wrote:
...Wow. I didn't realize I was so powerful.

By yourself? Perhaps not so much. But if there are a hundred, or five hundred, or a thousand like you? As has been pointed out, roleplaying is a niche market. And for some publishers, selling an extra hundred copies could be the difference between a line that they'll continue to support and an operation that's barely breaking even (or worse).

And it's not about the selectivity of your purchasing. In fact, the competitive free market system works best when you *are* selective—when you support and reward the people who make good products, and don't support and reward the ones who make the bad ones. But when you're buying products exclusively on the secondary market, you're neither supporting nor rewarding the people who make the good products, and that's harmful to the system.


Vic Wertz wrote:
In short, if you only buy Paizo products secondhand on eBay, you help two people: yourself and the seller. But, by bypassing the primary market, you hurt a lot of people. Here are the names of just a few of them.

As an aside, what helps Paizo the most? I'm sure it varies company by company and maybe even product line by product line (and probably varies between product launch and a year or two from now), but of the various ways to purchase Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules, which way is best? I've seen behind the curtain at publishers to know that each has very different pros and cons, so given the current situation, which helps Paizo the most?

A) Buy from Paizo online store (or subscribe month to month), so that Paizo gets a bigger cut of the profits?

B) Subscribe, both for bigger cut and so Paizo has more cash upfront to work with?

C) Buy from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Borders to sort of "prime the pump" and increase demand for the products in the book market?

D) Buy from FLGS to keep that old distribution system flowing? (Obviously this helps the FLGS owner as well and they need it more than Amazon, but assume the customer is neutral about the FLGS owner - which helps *Paizo* the most?)

E) All of the above. Paizo needs us to buy from diverse venues (in which case, we the customers can roll 1d4).

I'm already subscribing to Pathfinder, but haven't decided on the best way to get the modules yet (partly waiting on any subscription news), so I'm flexible on my buying method for those. I don't necessarily need it the earliest possible and am willing for now to even pay a couple dollars more if avoiding the biggest discounts actually helps you all out (since in the long run that means better products).

So which is it?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Ken Marable wrote:

...which helps Paizo the most?

A) Buy from Paizo online store (or subscribe month to month), so that Paizo gets a bigger cut of the profits?

B) Subscribe, both for bigger cut and so Paizo has more cash upfront to work with?

C) Buy from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Borders to sort of "prime the pump" and increase demand for the products in the book market?

D) Buy from FLGS to keep that old distribution system flowing? (Obviously this helps the FLGS owner as well and they need it more than Amazon, but assume the customer is neutral about the FLGS owner - which helps *Paizo* the most?)

E) All of the above. Paizo needs us to buy from diverse venues (in which case, we the customers can roll 1d4).

To answer simply, E. For our products to succeed, we really do need sales in all of those arenas—especially when we're launching a new line.

One note on "B," though, is that our subscriptions are now all month-to-month, requiring no advance payment, so the "upfront cash" you mention doesn't exist. However, the known demand for consecutive products makes budgeting and setting print runs easier and less risky, so it's still very beneficial.

And a note on "C": we REALLY need the book trade's support for Planet Stories in particular to succeed. Sales at brick-and-mortar chain stores like Borders and Barnes & Noble will be especially helpful in the first few months of the line.

Similarly, for the first three months of Pathfinder especially, we need support at your local game store. We need folks to make sure the stores know about it, and that they're making a point to offer it to everyone who used to buy Dungeon or Dragon. We're incentivizing them to order a lot of those first three volumes, so we need to have the sales there to back them up.


Vic Wertz wrote:

One is that the stakeholders for the product don't get any of the revenue for that sale, and the other is that, essentially, your "vote" for what makes a good product doesn't get counted.

I'm no economist, but isn't this kind of self-correcting? I would think that a good product would be less available on Ebay or in used book stores as more people are keeping them. Customers who want a product will have to go to primary vendors to get it new.

Does that make sense?

I'm just thinking that if you sell 100 copies of a lame product, 90 of those are going to wind up at Twice Sold Tales and the creators see no more money from them. But if you sell 100 copies of a great product and only 10 of those wind up for resale somewheres, the other 80 people who wanted copies have to go back to Barnes & Noble for theirs after all.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Fletch wrote:
I'm no economist, but isn't this kind of self-correcting? I would think that a good product would be less available on Ebay or in used book stores as more people are keeping them.

That doesn't work for products that people view as "single-use," though, and books fall into that category for a lot of people. The vast majority of the folks who bought the fourth Harry Potter novel totally loved it, yet you're still likely to find a stack of 'em at the used book store.

(For RPGs, most people probably don't view the core rulebooks as dispensable, at least as long as they're still playing the game, but they might see adventures that way.)


I don't mind spending 20 bucks for a book or magazine. It is a hobby I enjoy and that is just the price to pay. When Paizo took over Dungeon and Dragon magazines, I filled up my triuck with 20 bucks today I put in 40 bucks and it still isn't on full. I trust Eric Mona to deliver a great product, he has done so for the past few years at the helm of Dungeon and myself and my players think the world of him for it.


As always, we should keep in mind that this all started with WotC yanking the rug out from under Paizo's feet. Now, instead of being a supporter of(and supported by) WotC, Paizo must become a competitor for you dollars.

As for higher costs, no one is paying for advertising, including WotC itself for exposure to their upcoming products. I've done my own page counts of ads vs. content. No ads=more content. Count me in.


From my perspective, I have been a RPGer from age 12 and I am currently
age 44. Now that is 32+ yrs and I have collected the Dragon since
issue #29. For me I will not get a "Online" version of this. I also
have a subscription to Dungeon as well. I have a huge gaming library
and just expanded it to buy much of the new resource materials for
v3.5 for D&D, most of the Hero's System (all the themes - for my 12yr
old kid), and Traveller game.

I am greatly saddened by this event, and feel the end of a era is
on us all.

Penn

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