Jay |
This is really sad news. But any anger directed at Paizo is misplaced. In every editorial they write you can feel their love for core dungeons and dragons seeping through it. These guys have these jobs because they love the game. they probably fought tooth and nail to keep this license. Wizards for their own reasons has decided to move on. I for one think this is a poor decision. I think that dungeons and dragons will suffer from the loss of monthly support aht paizo offered. I only hope that the relationship between paizo and wizards hasn't been completely severed as some of wizards' best writers and creative staff on their books are also paizo people.
Erik and the entire Paizo gang. I'll stick with you. I'll stick with wizards too because core D&D is where my heart is at. But I want you all to know that you still have one incredibly loyal fan here who's got your back through thick and thin.
Thank you for all your hard work. Dragon magazines are scattered all over ym game table and all throughout my house. I've played through age of worms and its one of my absolute favorites. I own shackled city and plan on running it very soon.
Your hard work and love for the game is very appreciated.
Jason Enright
ShinHakkaider |
I want to say thanks you guys for all of your hard work on these two magazines.
I dropped both of them just around the time that I stopped playing 2nd Ed, but came back to them both when 3rd ed hit and even moreso when 3.5 hit. Dragon wasnt my favorite but I still bought it from time to time. but Dungeon?
Let me tell you I never subscribe to magazines out of pocket. I've gotten free subscriptions and subscriptions that were packaged with other things but Dungeon was the only magazine that I subscribed to out of pocket and that was so that I could get the AOW adventure path. And It was worth it. I let my subscription lapse and meant to renew it for the tail end of STAP but never did even though I pick it up from my LGS.
I know a lot of people are hating on WOTC right now, but I look at it like this, youre free from the yoke of WOTC and now get to do what ever you want without much oversite. D&D adventures, M&M adventures (and even though I dont care much for the game) C&C adventures if theres a demand. Even if it's just D&D adventures which I'm guessing it will be that'll be great to. You guys havent disappointed me yet, so keep your heads up and keep up the good work.
This end of Dragon / Dungeon thing? A speed bump.
At best.
Dire Elf |
I've never had an actual subscription to Dragon, but I pick up a copy every month. I used to have my local comic store put it in my box. Even after I stopped getting comics, I continued picking up issues of Dragon regularly.
I find this turn toward electronic media a disappointing one. Some things should stay in print. The staff of Dragon have done a great job with the transition to 3.5 and to publishing outside of WotC, and I'm disappointed that arrangement won't be continuing.
(wanders away to mope)
Erik Mona Chief Creative Officer, Publisher |
John Robey |
Paizo's been nothing but awesome, and I expect them to continue to be. You'll definitely be getting my business in the future.
WotC, I'm not so sure about.
As somebody who's notorious for being optimistic, or at least saying "Wait and see," about most things, I just want to say...
Holy moly this is a bad move. -.-
-The Gneech
DmRrostarr |
Paizo's been nothing but awesome, and I expect them to continue to be. You'll definitely be getting my business in the future.
WotC, I'm not so sure about.
As somebody who's notorious for being optimistic, or at least saying "Wait and see," about most things, I just want to say...
Holy moly this is a bad move. -.-
-The Gneech
Bad move is right!!!! I'm selling all my shares of Hasbro....
Jay Elmore |
Chalk up another "thank you" to Paizo for the year-and-a-half-ish run on my subscriptions. After borrowing friends' copies of Dungeon and Dragon for ages, I finally broke down and subscribed when you put OOTS on the back page of Dragon. (Best thing since What's New, in my opinion...)
I'm ambivalent on Pathfinder, given the rise in cover price; I'll have to check my back issues of Dungeon and Dragon -- if I'm missing any I may go that route, otherwise I'll pop for the first 4 issues.
Either way, best of luck to you guys on Pathfinder. :)
Maldin |
Ok... Whoa.
Russ (in another thread) is wrong. We ARE losing a good friend. I've been buying Dragon since Issue 45! Over the next little while we are going to hear alot of people saying the same things. This is a stupid decision of Epic proportions on WotC's part. Turning Dragon into "online content"? Shouldn't they have been generating online content all along? But online content could never fill the purpose of the magazines. This is not a replacement or conversion... its an end. I'm certain this is not what Paizo wanted (the ranters in other threads are delusional, and most of Paizo's customers are going to know that). The long glorious history of Dragon and Dungeon is going to end in ignominious obscurity on a website that was never well-designed in the first place. But it will truly end on a high point. Paizo (all of its employees and owners :: waves at Lisa ::), and Erik in particular, has taken both magazines to the best they've ever been. For that I thank them all for their hard work. I wish them the best of luck with any and all future products they produce. I'm certain they will continue to produce the best material, both design content and production quality, in the industry. I've known Erik for a very long time indeed (almost 15 years!), and had many occasions to interact with Lisa as well. Both of them do what they do, as well as they do, because they truly love their jobs and love the hobby. I'm certain that can also be said of their many employees that I do not personally know. I'm also certain Erik never thought (or likes the idea) that he'd be the end of a long and distinguished line.
Still, it is a very sad day for all RPG gamers, indeed. There will be alot of ramifications from this that people likely don't realize yet, both positive and negative. But mostly negative. Another poster has already commented on the fact that Paizo will no longer be straight-jacketed by WotC's content-castrating editorial "managers". True. But this also means that today is a very dark day for Greyhawk. Meditate on what that means! Not a Greyhawk fan? Pick any other campaign world other then FR or Ebberon, and substitute.
Erik, my good friend... my thanks and appreciation, my condolences, and my best wishes for the future.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
snappa |
I'm stunned.
As I posted on the WOTC boards a few minutes ago, I've given my last dime to WOTC. (well, except for Expedition to Castle Greyhawk) While the last three years have seen a huge increase in the quality of Paizo's published products, the reverse has held true for the editing of WOTC's own books. Instead of putting their efforts toward putting out a higher quality product, Wizards has pulled a Games Workshop, and decided to make their show the only show in town.
I'm voting with my wallet. Up with Pathfinder, down with Wizards.
Christopher West |
Dungeon Magazine published my first professional map and the vast majority of my work since then. I've branched out to work for other companies and products, but these magazines have stayed at the core of my career. This is quite a momentous day for me, but in spite of my disappointment at the news, I must raise a glass to the wonderful, amazing, and talented people who have staffed and contributed to Dragon and Dungeon over the years. You guys are the best! I look forward to continuing a long and productive relationship with Paizo.
Best wishes to all involved! Here's to the future! :raises a mug to Paizo and then drinks deeply:
FilmGuy |
I was a reader of the magazines back in the 2e days, and when I left the hobby I sort of stopped. I recently got back into the game, and only just recently (Decemberish) renewed my familiarity with Dungeon. I must say I am sorry I didn't find it sooner. The quality of these magazines is top notch, and I'm so sad to be seeing them go.
I want to continue supporting Paizo. I have been utterly impressed with both the superb customer service and the general love of the game shown by the staff.
I wish you all the best of luck in the new endeavors. I am looking forward to the potential of Pathfinder, and my continued association with Paizo.
Sharoth |
Well, I have subscribed to Pathfinder and I will be finishing buying the last Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. As for WotC, I will get the last few things from them and then I will stop buying their stuff. Unfortunatly, that will be in a bit, since I have a long list. It is a shame that WotC is taking such a short sighted (and in my opinion, a very foolish) view of this. ~sighs~ Oh, well. ~raises a toast to Paizo ~ Here is to Dragon Magazine, Dungeon MAgazine, and to the Future of Pathfinder Magazine and the new Gamemastery Adventures !!!
Michael Kortes Contributor |
Non-Renewal of Licence.
Some say that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. But perhaps the fine folks at Paizo can take solace in that it turns out there just might be one greater form.
Anyways, I’ve been a fan of Dungeon for so long now that a part of me remains convinced (all evidence certainly to the contrary) that Dungeon will still, one day, be back in my mailbox. I don’t know when or in what form, but I’ll look forward to #151, be it from WOTC, Paizo or from some dedicated fans in the back of a truck.
In any event, thank you Paizo for looking after my favourite magazine for as long and as well as you did. (And thanks to the Dragon folk too of course – you rock too).
As for Pathfinder, I can’t wait. If Dungeon ever had a shortcoming, it was that it was simply too small. And this new campaign setting sounds to be off to a fine start already: “The Skinsaw Murders”?, “Hook Mountain Massacre”!? Sounds terrific. “Burnt Offerings” here we come. My dice will be ready.
-Michael
Stebehil |
But this also means that today is a very dark day for Greyhawk. Meditate on what that means!
Indeed. The Magazines were prime sources for GH content the last few years. If I could get my hands on a WotC official, I would probably strangle him, for killing my favourite setting... again!
I´m really furious thinking of this.
Stefan
damnitall22 |
Well I must say I am utterly depressed now. Just got out of taking a P. Chem. test that was brutal and figured I would check out some stuff here at paizo. While it saddens me to see such great magazines get shut down for more "great" PDF's (notice the sarcasm) I must thank everyone at paizo that has worked so hard on these magazines. You guys did an unbelievable job. I am fairly certain that I will be converting my credit over to Pathfinder but if not I will certainly be buying more wonderful stuff from paizo.
As a slight rant I also have to say that I HATE all the PDF's these days. Admittedly they are cheaper but what ever happened to picking up a book and reading versus sitting at a @#$# desk. Honestly all the PDF's and PowerPoint’s out there are seriously reducing the quality of everything. Fully 3/4 of my college classes are taught by PowerPoint. The teachers, (in general) don't even try to show us anything not on the PowerPoint. It's sheer laziness and I am seriously tired of it. I am fairly horrid at editing anything and I am still able to catch a ridiculous number of printing errors in Core Books. Why, because it seems no one actually reads the D@*& books anymore. "Hey that book is good to print I ran it through spell check and it looks great!" Seriously, if I am going to spend $30-$40 on a book it could at least have errors that my non-editing self can't find. *sigh* End Rant.
Thank you Paizo for a quality product, I hope that Pathfinder continues the excellence that was Dragon and Dungeon.
Jay Elmore |
Actually, after taking part in a discussion about the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon on Slashdot, I feel compelled to come back here and offer my thanks for the following...
Core Beliefs:
As I said on /., my favorite set of articles to date -- so much so that it's inspired me to ask my DM if I can write similar essays for the deities of our homebrew campaign.
The Adventure Paths:
A great idea that gets better with each iteration. I think Age of Worms was my favorite to date, due to the story elements -- fighting a deity? Tracking down some of the Rod of Seven Parts? WOO!
Dragonmarks:
Too bad this series will get cut short; thanks to the lack of similar content on the WotC site (although Keith Baker recently contributed a new Dragonshards article finally) this was my regular fix for Eberron goodness.
Dungeoncraft:
Please consider doing a collection of the Best of Dungeoncraft. PLEASE. I didn't read the series until it moved to Dungeon (which is around when I subscribed) but I feel that a lot of good tips and ideas flowed from Monte Cook and Wolfgang Baur.
Wil Save: (yes!)
People thought this column was pointless enough to get it killed, but I feel like Wil Wheaton and I are at similar points in our lives (although I don't have any children yet, I know a few teenagers whom I'm kinda mentoring through learning D&D) and I enjoyed reading it.
Order of the Stick and Nodwick:
I can't get enough of either of them. 'Nuff said.
As I said before, good luck with Pathfinder; hopefully I'll see you with issue #1.
Peruhain of Brithondy |
Well, I've got to say, I view this development with quite a bit of trepidation. Quetzalcoatl has landed on the eastern shore. Or was that Cortes?
Pros:
-We get to continue to read great adventure content from our favorite authors.
-WotC no longer has the power to put the kaibosh on good ideas, like the Age of Worms hardcover.
-We get two APs per year instead of one.
-Can't think of any others right now.
Cons:
-You've just killed two brands that have huge name recognition and have an ongoing role in helping the gaming hobby and D&D grow. Near as I can tell, the mags were making money, not losing it, and killing the mags isn't going to build an online readership for WotC. How does this help the long-term future of the D&D brand?
-Subscription price for APs just increased from $38 per year to $168. (Guess we'll all have to stop buying WotC books to get our AP fix).
-No more support for Greyhawk in print. (I'll be wearing black for the next three months in honor of the death of my favorite published setting).
-No more accessible supplemental material to enrich core D&D rules. (Sorry, I sit at a computer all day, and I don't want to have to surf for this stuff--plus it's hard to imagine that all the great series articles like the core faiths articles, ecologies, demonomicon of Iggwilv, and such will be continued at the same level of quality in WotC's online replacement. There's a lot of great stuff in Dragon that I've incorporated into my house rules or used to enrich my game.)
-Reduced opportunities for new writers/designers to get their good ideas published. (I know Paizo rejects a lot of queries, but at least they look at them. WotC has no connection with the ordinary gamer except as provider of rules from on high, as near as I can tell).
-I don't know what percentage of Paizo's profits come from the two magazines, but I can only imagine that they won't sell nearly as many issues of Pathfinder as they do of Dungeon and Dragon, since you're essentially starting a new brand, and even dedicated customers are going to balk at spending twice as much per month for a narrower (if richer) range of content. Even if you have a higher per unit profit margin built into the sale price, my guess is that Paizo will be seeing its gross sales and overall profits go down as a result of losing Dungeon and Dragon. And that makes me sad, because I really like what Paizo does and how you do it.
I could be wrong, but I think I see a dude decked out in a steel breastplate landing at Veracruz, and not a feather-bedecked god.
Christopher Adams |
Both Dragon and Dungeon have experienced a Golden Age in the last few years at Paizo Publishing - everyone involved in the production of these final issues of the magazines can be proud that they'll be leaving them on a real high note.
I'm sad to see them go, but excited to see what Pathfinder and other Paizo products will be like in the future!
Thank you all for two great magazines.
Erik Mona Chief Creative Officer, Publisher |
-Reduced opportunities for new writers/designers to get their good ideas published. (I know Paizo rejects a lot of queries, but at least they look at them. WotC has no connection with the ordinary gamer except as provider of rules from on high, as near as I can tell).
Readers _will_ have a chance to submit articles for inclusion in Pathfinder, we'll soon release writer's guidelines for our GameMastery Modules line, and we're working on additional ways for readers to contribute. We understand how important this element of the publisher-customer relationship is to us, and we'll be providing several ways for new writers to get involved in our product lines.
-I don't know what percentage of Paizo's profits come from the two magazines, but I can only imagine that they won't sell nearly as many issues of Pathfinder as they do of Dungeon and Dragon, since you're essentially starting a new brand, and even...
We won't have to sell as many issues because Pathfinder will have a much higher print-to-sales ratio than the magazine. Dragon and Dungeon had pretty good sell-throughs on the newsstand, but even that meant that only about 60% of the magazines were sold. A phenomenally popular magazine, such as Maxim at its height about seven years ago, only sold about 80% of their print run. That's a lot of waste, and a lot of wasted money. since Pathfinder is a book and not a magazine, it doesn't need to be printed like a magazine.
--Erik
Mosaic |
Dungeon and Dragon are dead. Long live Pathfinder!
Seriously folks, Paizo has been the number one source on new and innovative ideas in the game for quite a while. And ALL of your products are incredible. I - and my $ - will follow quality, not "the 100% official" label.
Sad, stupid news ... and an opportunity. Good luck.
Timespike |
Dungeon and Dragon are dead. Long live Pathfinder!
Seriously folks, Paizo has been the number one source on new and innovative ideas in the game for quite a while. And ALL of your products are incredible. I - and my $ - will follow quality, not "the 100% official" label.
Sad, stupid news ... and an opportunity. Good luck.
I could not agree more.
I'm beginning to think that Complete Champion may be the last WotC product I purchase. It won't be the last d20 fantasy product I purchase, but it may be the last official one. WotC has been pulling ALL of their licenses lately. I wonder what in the world they're up to.
TheCarrionCrawler |
Dragon (and recently Dungeon) was like that older friend everyone has. He's like 20-30 years your senior, he's always got a great story to tell you, new insight into things that happen today, tells the best jokes.
Well, dear friends, that guy...we'll call him "Sarge"...has just died. His death will sadden many, anger even more, and perhaps even make a few individuals happy.
However, Sarge is like a Chuck Norris-phoenix hybrid. He'll rise from the ashes, roundhouse kicking enemies in the face. Then who's going to be laughing? Not WotC, that's for sure. They'll be too sterky!
CC
TheCarrionCrawler |
Mosaic wrote:Dungeon and Dragon are dead. Long live Pathfinder!
Seriously folks, Paizo has been the number one source on new and innovative ideas in the game for quite a while. And ALL of your products are incredible. I - and my $ - will follow quality, not "the 100% official" label.
Sad, stupid news ... and an opportunity. Good luck.
I could not agree more.
I'm beginning to think that Complete Champion may be the last WotC product I purchase. It won't be the last d20 fantasy product I purchase, but it may be the last official one. WotC has been pulling ALL of their licenses lately. I wonder what in the world they're up to.
4.0???
Darkmeer |
Dragon (and recently Dungeon) was like that older friend everyone has. He's like 20-30 years your senior, he's always got a great story to tell you, new insight into things that happen today, tells the best jokes.
Well, dear friends, that guy...we'll call him "Sarge"...has just died. His death will sadden many, anger even more, and perhaps even make a few individuals happy.
However, Sarge is like a Chuck Norris-phoenix hybrid. He'll rise from the ashes, roundhouse kicking enemies in the face. Then who's going to be laughing? Not WotC, that's for sure. They'll be too sterky!
CC
I need a drink. I'm really tempted to iron my clothes for work tomorrow, go to the town I work, and stay the night. I'll rant in the proper thread...
For now:
Everyone here at Paizo:
Thanks for the run. I started my subscription with the first Dungeon after 3.0 hit, and dragon the second issue after 3.0 hit. I love my collection, and I will cherish the fact that I will have the last of the magazines in my collection.
Good night, may you see the lights of dawn again.
Darkmeer the Dark
Richard Chamberlain |
To everyone at Paizo both past and present, I want to say thank you so very much for all the work you did the last several years on both Dragon and Dungeon. I've read and collected Dragon since 1e many, many years ago. I think my oldest issue is around #30 somewhere (The cover fell off some time ago, and at the moment I have the magazine stored away). My subscription dates back to the 2e days, before the fall of TSR. I can honestly say the level of quality of the magazine has done nothing but rise from when Paizo took it over until now. Sure, I may not have an immediate use, or any use, for a given article in my campaign. But, with a little imagination, and a bit of tweaking, I could take nearly anything out of an issue, and put it in my game.
As for Dungeon, I didn't subscribe to it, but I did get it at my FLGS regularly. Again, nothing but a rise in quality since Paizo had it. The Adventure Paths are incredible reads, and great sources of ideas for my own game.
It's a sad, sad day when we hear that this institution of our hobby is going away. Dragon is the only magazine I subscribe to, the only one I cared enough about, and the best place I could find to get new content and ideas. The website at WotC is pathetic in comparison. I can only hope that Pathfinder continues the tradition that Paizo has started, and will be looking forward to receiving my copies when it begins.
Zerosaiko |
I am - or perhaps was is the better term - a new Dragon subscriber. My first issue was #353 and I have been very impressed with what I've seen so far. I'm going to miss Dragon, it was always a great feeling to actually get something in the mail other than renewal reminders from the Wall Street Journal.
I look forward to Pathfinder and anticipate much enjoyment from returning to the DM chair.
Cheers, Paizo, and keep up the good work.
Constantine Darkhand |
I have bought dragon since issue 97 and dungeon since issue 1. I am very saddened that this has happened to my beloved magazines. It is especially tragic considering that in the last several years the great people currently working on them have done some of the best work since the early of early days I can remember. I owe you a great deal of thanks and high praise for all the hard work and wonderous imagination you've brought to me over that time. Your work on my favorite setting (Greyhawk) has been a highlight in a time of bland work abounding the net. I've just subscribed to Pathfinder and look forward to supporting your further endevors.
*Bows before the talent*
James Laubacker |
This is the second time that WOTC has affected my game play. First it was with Code Monkeys CMP (e-tools) and now this. I think I am about to break out my old TSR stuff and never turning back. What will be next all of the books on pdf?
Very Diappointed,
Halberad the pissed
I agree completely. This is perhaps the dumbest idea they've had yet. The game world is not ready yet for a 100% online experience. Nothing compares to print yet. I've subscribed to Dragon since issues in the 50's, I'll miss it, and it will certainly reduce my expose (and interest) in other Wizard's products. They should seriously reconsider this decision. I feel sorry for the good folks at Paizo that have done an excellent job with the magazines the last year or two.
Jim
Gryffin |
While I'm saddened by this news as well, it doesn't phase me too much. As of late, the most exciting parts of the magazine have been concerning the adventure paths, which Paizo will continue to produce anyway, so I will simply continue to subscribe.
I will not, however, subscribe to Dungeon and Dragon from WotC as PDFs.
Varl |
Thanks Paizo. I know it's not your fault for the boneheaded business award of thr year award, and I want to thank you for the job you've done.
Anyone wonder why, if 40% of the magazines go unsold and are such a waste as a result, why Dragon and Dungeon wouldn't go strictly subscriptions. There can't be very much waste if people decide to subscribe to the magazines directly, and even if there is some waste, it couldn't be 40%, not unless it was intentional.
daedel, el azote |
Thank you, Dragon and Dungeon magazines. For being the place to gather with all fellow gamers. For being good friends through all these years. For being my favourite reading of every month. For making my life as a gamer deeper and better. For that all, and many more things, thank you both. You are going to be really, really missed.
And thank you, people at Paizo. For giving the two magazines a second youth. Because under your wings, Dragon and Dungeon were best than ever. For your care and patience with all of us. For you love for the game and for the magazines. For making me feel as part of a family. You'll never walk alone. I am, for sure, going to give a chance to Pathfinder. Because I am sure most of the magic you put on Dragon and Dungeon magazines will be there.
But for now, it's time to say goodbye. Maybe Dungeon and Dragon will one day come back to my FLGS.
Maybe.
Santiago, somewhere southern spain
sad_genius |
Thankyou for all your hard work to the entire crew. Dungeon drew me in to 3.0 D&D as an experience roleplayer who'd never tried D&D before - Paizo is (*still is*) the only place to go for D&D material that matches 80s era (good) TSR and often outstrips official books in creativity, artistry and games design.
theprofessor |
Thanks Paizo for your efforts to improve the game we love. I've been a loyal reader of Dragon since #42 and Dungeon for its entire life (and a subscriber for 99% of that time). It's a sad day indeed.
You folks did a great job with the magazines and their current incarnations were definitely the best ever.
I'm really looking forward to the new Pathfinder--both myself and my players love the adventure paths.
Keep up the great work!
disziplin18 |
Thanks for everything, guys!
I have been subscribing to Dragon and Dungeon for many years (off and on). As a matter of fact, it was just this last weekend that I found myself spending hours organizing my back issues and relishing in memories of sessions past.
Regardless of what I think about this move by Wizards (it sucks), I will continue to support the game I love and I will certainly check out the new Pathfinder releases from Paizo. And I hope that guys like Erik Mona will continue to give life to my favorite setting, Greyhawk. He has always been a champion of it, and I hope he finds cause to continue!
Good luck to everyone at Paizo...I hope you're able to turn lemons into lemonade (or Mountain Dew, in this case).
Vendle |
Thank you Paizo, for all the incredible content you've provided my gaming table for years. The loss of printed "D." and "D." magazines is a hard one.
I don't blame or curse WotC for this choice; I don't believe greedy magistrates or bumbling orcs are enforcing this path. I choose to believe it's simply a difficult cutback that a large company had to come to terms with in order to continue operations, and perhaps expand in other areas.
I'll be buying into Pathfinder immediately; I have no doubt that the content will be of the same richness and originality I've come to enjoy for scant dollars a month.